New GW Land 1
Land - Forest Plains
You can play ~ even if you already played a land this turn
unless rules change so land uses the stack then this is impossible. Either way they did something similar in conflux. I think it would be better to use that template.
Land
Tap: Add R or G to your mana pool.
You can only spend mana from ~ on a red or green spell.
That way, people just starting the game will think "this is obviously better than basic lands". But more experienced players will know better, and realize its restrictions.
This is interesting. I still think that the design of those duals will push you away from using too many non-basic. Wizards should really push basic and mono-dual color a bit more.
Something like:
Charcoal Mine
Land - Mountain Swamp
Whenever you play a non-basic land, tap Charcoal Mine.
Maybe i'm simply tired of dual that simply say : 4 of if you play those color. Really. The only land that strayed away from this paradigm a little were the Ravnica Karoos, loved them.
I don't know if this has been posted in the thread yet, but how about a constricted but amazing version of rupture spire? Basically a tapland, but better because you can tap a swamp you have in play and get an island in the end.
Isle Bog
Swamp Island
As Isle Bog comes into play, you may pay U or B, if you don't, sacrifice isle bog.
Tap:Add U or B to your mana pool.
I don't know if this has been posted in the thread yet, but how about a constricted but amazing version of rupture spire? Basically a tapland, but better because you can tap a swamp you have in play and get an island in the end.
Isle Bog
Swamp Island
As Isle Bog comes into play, you may pay U or B, if you don't, sacrifice isle bog.
Tap:Add U or B to your mana pool.
That would probably work better than lands with mana costs. Since you're not using the stack to play it.
That would probably work better than lands with mana costs. Since you're not using the stack to play it.
yeah exactly, I also sort of imagine this: first, they designed the lands after alara block, using the lessons learned from it, so it has some higher chance to share features from alara multi lands (supporting either a rupture spire esque land with less drawbacks, like my example, or a land similar to the "can only be played on cards of x type", so a land that says "can only be played on blue / black spells or abilities from blue/black sources")
Yet, if they go with the ladder case, it is more complex (m2010 is about simplicity), and it probably won't synergize with alara block's five-color cards, so they'd save that for M2010. I also think fetching lands will be too complex for a core-set reboot.
Also, it can be fetched by green spells, but the fetch will be more expensive when it puts it into play, the drawback synergies well to punish picking it when searching so that they can put a basic land type on it.
I don't know if this has been posted in the thread yet, but how about a constricted but amazing version of rupture spire? Basically a tapland, but better because you can tap a swamp you have in play and get an island in the end.
Isle Bog
Swamp Island
As Isle Bog comes into play, you may pay U or B, if you don't, sacrifice isle bog.
Tap:Add U or B to your mana pool.
That's pretty cool. You can use its ability to pay for itself (unsure?)
I think everyone is missing something here.
Here are the qualifiers for the lands:
-Painlands are rotating out. Vivids, Pool, Filters, and Tribal duals will follow them soon after. These lands have to be suitable replacements. (Usable on the first turn)
-They have to be good enough to drive sales of the set.
-They have to be of a reasonable power level. (just under shocks I would say) These are RARES.
I think everyone is trying too hard to nerf them.
CIPT drawbacks and paying a cost drawbacks don't seem to be the case here. CIPT is something WoTC knows people hate, especially on rare lands. (Tribal lands don't really count here because you could use them turn one usually)
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I think everyone is missing something here.
Here are the qualifiers for the lands:
-Painlands are rotating out. Vivids, Pool, Filters, and Tribal duals will follow them soon after. These lands have to be suitable replacements. (Usable on the first turn)
-They have to be good enough to drive sales of the set.
-They have to be of a reasonable power level. (just under shocks I would say) These are RARES.
I think everyone is trying too hard to nerf them.
CIPT drawbacks and paying a cost drawbacks don't seem to be the case here. CIPT is something WoTC knows people hate, especially on rare lands. (Tribal lands don't really count here because you could use them turn one usually)
I haven't read the entire thread but here is what I'm thinking:
Card Name
Forest/Island
Tap: Produce G mana.
U, Tap: Produce UU, UG, or GG. Maybe take 1 damage(?)
This is sort of like the filter lands from shadowmoor/eventide but you wouldn't be able to use to of the same cards to enable the filtering.
I think everyone is missing something here.
Here are the qualifiers for the lands:
-Painlands are rotating out. Vivids, Pool, Filters, and Tribal duals will follow them soon after. These lands have to be suitable replacements. (Usable on the first turn)
-They have to be good enough to drive sales of the set.
-They have to be of a reasonable power level. (just under shocks I would say) These are RARES.
I think everyone is trying too hard to nerf them.
CIPT drawbacks and paying a cost drawbacks don't seem to be the case here. CIPT is something WoTC knows people hate, especially on rare lands. (Tribal lands don't really count here because you could use them turn one usually)
Well put.
Again, I defer back to the idea of painless fetch lands that grab only basic lands. It has enough power to fix but since you aren't grabbing multiple basic land types at the same time (as you see in Extended Zoo decks) it requires more strategy to use to colorfix effectively.
Is there a significanly effective option that isn't a fetch-style land? That is, assuming that any CIPT or life payment effects are out and it isn't a fetch land, what's left that's effective to moderate a new dual land?
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
ok I know these are rather weak but maybe something alone these lines?
New BU
Island Swamp
blue and black spells your opponent plays cost 1 less?
could be decremental or could be a free dual?
new WG
land
T add W or G to your mana pool and put a charge counter of new WG
at the beggining of each players upkeep they draw a card for each charge counter of WG?
helps opponent first but then you all benefit?
New land
Mountan Legendary
When new land is put in the graveyard from play search your library for a swamp and put it in play tapped
well with all those things in mind, I'd definetely go with my initial idea: grove of the burnwillows cycle.
it's just that I thought the name was very flavourful en would be used in a themed set first.
They reasoned that new players don't like the drawback of painlands.
Maybe it is just me, but new players don't like the drawback of having the opponent gain life either...
Not to mention that grove is one of the most lopsided cycles powerwise. Control colors will love them, aggro colors will hate them.
painless fetches for basics would meen a 3 colour deck could plays 10 lands they plan on using and 12 lands that they won't mind drawing. (going to a 48 cards deck)
only issue with them will be that it is impossible to play a U on the first turn and a BR on the second.
I'd love to play them though, especially in 2 color decks!
Fetch lands are powerful but because of the exact scenario you describe they aren't as powerful as the shocklands (and the Onslaught fetch lands are what continue to drive the powerful manabases in Extended... using the shocklands).
As for decks that just dump all the "new fetch" lands into their deck, the metagame would adjust. Things like Stone Rain become much more powerful and therefore useful (and used). If you want something like a second or third turn Rhox War Monk, heavy fetch land use doesn't garauntee it better than Seaside Citadel and Noble Heirarch.
Basic lands only give you mana of one type (my "Duh!" statement of the day), mitigating a substantial portion of the power that the shaocklands give you using the Onslaught fetch lands. Would new fetch lands be powerful? Absolutely. We we all want these new lands? Yes. Will they break Standard/Extended/Legacy? I'm not sure; I haven't tested and it isn't my job to do this. We'll just have to wait and see that R&D come up with.
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
well with all those things in mind, I'd definetely go with my initial idea: grove of the burnwillows cycle.
Has the same kind of problem as life-losing lands, with the added drawback that these lands are really unbalanced by color (there's almost no blue-white deck that's going to consider it a drawback, for example.) This cycle is off the table.
So far the best options this thread has come up with are the reveal lands, the counter lands, and the painless fetches, IMO, and I'm not convinced that any of them are exactly on-point in terms of power level.
How may I ask is this any better than one of the CIPT lands from Invasion? It slows you down just the same, and you can't even play it first turn.
It's actually an Island and a Swamp, making it fetcheable. Other than that, this is strictly worse than the CIPT lands from Invasion.
I'ld like basic fetches, but even though they'ld put the basics into play untapped, I think they could see print at uncommon, seeing that Terramorphic Expanse is ok at common. What I'm trying to say is that I don't know if the cycle would feel "rare" enough.
What I'm trying to say is that I don't know if the cycle would feel "rare" enough.
Shocklands didn't exist when Onslaught came out.
They could only fetch the original duals and basics at the time.
In standard, there are no nonbasics that have land types, (bosk, which rotates soon is the sole example) so the change doesn't matter.
Mirage had uncommon fetches, which cipt, but the fetched land didn't.
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CARDNAME
land
when CARDNAME comes into play, sacrifice it unless you pay 1.
*mana ability*
I have nothing to back this up, but I think they want to avoid strongly biasing lands, such as painlands which are more harmful in a control deck or grove of the burnwillow lands that hurt aggro more, so I don't expect them to print lands that become obsolete or are obsolete until a point in the game. In otherwords, I doubt they'll do a variation on temple of the lost god.
CARDNAME
land
when CARDNAME comes into play, sacrifice it unless you pay 1.
*mana ability*
I have nothing to back this up, but I think they want to avoid strongly biasing lands, such as painlands which are more harmful in a control deck or grove of the burnwillow lands that hurt aggro more, so I don't expect them to print lands that become obsolete or are obsolete until a point in the game. In otherwords, I doubt they'll do a variation on temple of the lost god.
Rupture Spire is very close to your suggestion. It's pretty decent I'll say.
Even with basic land types, that sort of drawback isn't something that attractive to new players. "If I can't pay it, it dies?" "Can I tap it to pay for itself?"
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
Let me reiterate something to everybody who keeps refusing to read the thread...
THERE WILL BE NO LOSS OF LIFE INVOLVED AS THESE CARDS ARE FOR RISK AVERSE NEW PLAYERS.
Kthnx.
Beyond that, I also can safely bet a wealthy sum that they will not be legendary, as legendary is supposed to be something awesome, and to new players, having a legendary land is not awesome.
THIS IS ALSO A NEW DESIGN FOLKS. So, no, its not Flagstones of Trokair'ish, its not a reprint from future sight, etc. etc. its new. Read all the information provided before you just start guessing cards, as that just leads to pointless speculations.
Shocklands didn't exist when Onslaught came out.
They could only fetch the original duals and basics at the time.
In standard, there are no nonbasics that have land types, (bosk, which rotates soon is the sole example) so the change doesn't matter.
Mirage had uncommon fetches, which cipt, but the fetched land didn't.
But the original duals did, so WotC must have known about the synergie there. They also probably figured out they were going to do new "duals" by that time. Since then they also printed Terramorphic Expanse and printed it at common. Obviously the power of lands at lower rarities has gone up since Onslaught block, and since it really does matter a lot, nay the world!, that you can fetch duals with the original Onslaught fetchlands, I'ld still say painless basic fetches could see print at uncommon. They are after all vastly inferior to the Onslaught fetches when you're playing in older formats.
Augurying Bosk
Island forest - Uncommon
When ~ comes into play choose one: target opponent may draw a card or may search his or her library for a basic land and put it into his or her hand.
:symtap:: or
I think card draw in that form wasn´t suggested until now. You can´t force your opponent to draw (if you try to mill him or something) and at least for me when I was beginning, card draw wasn´t that important for us newbs.
The lands are rares.
Read the thread.
I'm changing the thread title to make sure there is no reason anyone would post anything other than a rare power (AND PLAYABLE) dual here.
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I like the idea of fetches for basic lands only. But without the life drawback, that makes them (almost) strictly better than basic lands, since you can sac them immediately for a basic.
An idea would be oddysey filter lands, but that can tap for colorless mana. I think they would have lower power level than shadowmoor filterlands (even though those need colored mana to activate), and would be a nice addition. The main problem is that filterlands happened very little time ago.
I really like Grove of the Burnwillows, but maybe it is too powerful for control colors. Perhaps without tapping for colorless mana would make it balanced enough.
Nimbus Maze would be OK, but it is a bit underwhelming.
Maybe something on the spirit of Lotus Vale, tapping for UW (in all combinations). It has some complicated wording, but it is very intuitive how to play it.
Maybe, maybe, maybe ... we'll have to wait.
ITS OF NEW DESIGN PEOPLE. It will not be a functional reprint of the future sight lands... none of them. You are all completely wrong on this... stop suggesting it, its non-productive speculation... thats like speculating they are going to reprint Goyf and Bitterblossom... its not going to happen.
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unless rules change so land uses the stack then this is impossible. Either way they did something similar in conflux. I think it would be better to use that template.
W
U
B
R
G
Neat thought, but the mana cost would have to be different. Consider cards like Charcoal Diamond.
This is interesting. I still think that the design of those duals will push you away from using too many non-basic. Wizards should really push basic and mono-dual color a bit more.
Something like:
Charcoal Mine
Land - Mountain Swamp
Whenever you play a non-basic land, tap Charcoal Mine.
Maybe i'm simply tired of dual that simply say : 4 of if you play those color. Really. The only land that strayed away from this paradigm a little were the Ravnica Karoos, loved them.
Isle Bog
Swamp Island
As Isle Bog comes into play, you may pay U or B, if you don't, sacrifice isle bog.
Tap:Add U or B to your mana pool.
That would probably work better than lands with mana costs. Since you're not using the stack to play it.
yeah exactly, I also sort of imagine this: first, they designed the lands after alara block, using the lessons learned from it, so it has some higher chance to share features from alara multi lands (supporting either a rupture spire esque land with less drawbacks, like my example, or a land similar to the "can only be played on cards of x type", so a land that says "can only be played on blue / black spells or abilities from blue/black sources")
Yet, if they go with the ladder case, it is more complex (m2010 is about simplicity), and it probably won't synergize with alara block's five-color cards, so they'd save that for M2010. I also think fetching lands will be too complex for a core-set reboot.
Also, it can be fetched by green spells, but the fetch will be more expensive when it puts it into play, the drawback synergies well to punish picking it when searching so that they can put a basic land type on it.
Midgame Dual
Land-
When Midgame Dual comes into play, sacrifice it if you do not control a plains or an island.
Tap: Add W or U to your mana pool.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
That's pretty cool. You can use its ability to pay for itself (unsure?)
Here are the qualifiers for the lands:
-Painlands are rotating out. Vivids, Pool, Filters, and Tribal duals will follow them soon after. These lands have to be suitable replacements. (Usable on the first turn)
-They have to be good enough to drive sales of the set.
-They have to be of a reasonable power level. (just under shocks I would say) These are RARES.
I think everyone is trying too hard to nerf them.
CIPT drawbacks and paying a cost drawbacks don't seem to be the case here. CIPT is something WoTC knows people hate, especially on rare lands. (Tribal lands don't really count here because you could use them turn one usually)
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I haven't read the entire thread but here is what I'm thinking:
Card Name
Forest/Island
Tap: Produce G mana.
U, Tap: Produce UU, UG, or GG. Maybe take 1 damage(?)
This is sort of like the filter lands from shadowmoor/eventide but you wouldn't be able to use to of the same cards to enable the filtering.
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Curse PremiumWell put.
Again, I defer back to the idea of painless fetch lands that grab only basic lands. It has enough power to fix but since you aren't grabbing multiple basic land types at the same time (as you see in Extended Zoo decks) it requires more strategy to use to colorfix effectively.
Is there a significanly effective option that isn't a fetch-style land? That is, assuming that any CIPT or life payment effects are out and it isn't a fetch land, what's left that's effective to moderate a new dual land?
New BU
Island Swamp
blue and black spells your opponent plays cost 1 less?
could be decremental or could be a free dual?
new WG
land
T add W or G to your mana pool and put a charge counter of new WG
at the beggining of each players upkeep they draw a card for each charge counter of WG?
helps opponent first but then you all benefit?
New land
Mountan Legendary
When new land is put in the graveyard from play search your library for a swamp and put it in play tapped
They reasoned that new players don't like the drawback of painlands.
Maybe it is just me, but new players don't like the drawback of having the opponent gain life either...
Not to mention that grove is one of the most lopsided cycles powerwise. Control colors will love them, aggro colors will hate them.
Life loss is not going to be on any of the cards.
Also, that is far too similar to a filter, and too inelegant for what I think they are trying for.
The best idea I have seen is still the basic fetches (printing 5 of them)...hopefully the end result is something near as good as that.
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Curse PremiumFetch lands are powerful but because of the exact scenario you describe they aren't as powerful as the shocklands (and the Onslaught fetch lands are what continue to drive the powerful manabases in Extended... using the shocklands).
As for decks that just dump all the "new fetch" lands into their deck, the metagame would adjust. Things like Stone Rain become much more powerful and therefore useful (and used). If you want something like a second or third turn Rhox War Monk, heavy fetch land use doesn't garauntee it better than Seaside Citadel and Noble Heirarch.
Basic lands only give you mana of one type (my "Duh!" statement of the day), mitigating a substantial portion of the power that the shaocklands give you using the Onslaught fetch lands. Would new fetch lands be powerful? Absolutely. We we all want these new lands? Yes. Will they break Standard/Extended/Legacy? I'm not sure; I haven't tested and it isn't my job to do this. We'll just have to wait and see that R&D come up with.
Has the same kind of problem as life-losing lands, with the added drawback that these lands are really unbalanced by color (there's almost no blue-white deck that's going to consider it a drawback, for example.) This cycle is off the table.
So far the best options this thread has come up with are the reveal lands, the counter lands, and the painless fetches, IMO, and I'm not convinced that any of them are exactly on-point in terms of power level.
I'ld like basic fetches, but even though they'ld put the basics into play untapped, I think they could see print at uncommon, seeing that Terramorphic Expanse is ok at common. What I'm trying to say is that I don't know if the cycle would feel "rare" enough.
Shocklands didn't exist when Onslaught came out.
They could only fetch the original duals and basics at the time.
In standard, there are no nonbasics that have land types, (bosk, which rotates soon is the sole example) so the change doesn't matter.
Mirage had uncommon fetches, which cipt, but the fetched land didn't.
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CARDNAME
land
when CARDNAME comes into play, sacrifice it unless you pay 1.
*mana ability*
I have nothing to back this up, but I think they want to avoid strongly biasing lands, such as painlands which are more harmful in a control deck or grove of the burnwillow lands that hurt aggro more, so I don't expect them to print lands that become obsolete or are obsolete until a point in the game. In otherwords, I doubt they'll do a variation on temple of the lost god.
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Curse PremiumRupture Spire is very close to your suggestion. It's pretty decent I'll say.
Even with basic land types, that sort of drawback isn't something that attractive to new players. "If I can't pay it, it dies?" "Can I tap it to pay for itself?"
THERE WILL BE NO LOSS OF LIFE INVOLVED AS THESE CARDS ARE FOR RISK AVERSE NEW PLAYERS.
Kthnx.
Beyond that, I also can safely bet a wealthy sum that they will not be legendary, as legendary is supposed to be something awesome, and to new players, having a legendary land is not awesome.
THIS IS ALSO A NEW DESIGN FOLKS. So, no, its not Flagstones of Trokair'ish, its not a reprint from future sight, etc. etc. its new. Read all the information provided before you just start guessing cards, as that just leads to pointless speculations.
The lands are rares.
Read the thread.
I'm changing the thread title to make sure there is no reason anyone would post anything other than a rare power (AND PLAYABLE) dual here.
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Not true. Look at Madblind Mountain, Mistveil Plains, Sapseed Forest, and the rest of the cycle.
i think these lands are going to be VERY simple:
new WU dual
land
:symtap:: add
not fetchable by most land tutors or the fetches, but it gives you what you need without totally outclassing any existing lands.
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
ITS OF NEW DESIGN PEOPLE. It will not be a functional reprint of the future sight lands... none of them. You are all completely wrong on this... stop suggesting it, its non-productive speculation... thats like speculating they are going to reprint Goyf and Bitterblossom... its not going to happen.