Anyone else notice its fairly possible to swing with a 5/5 -8/8 on turn 4 with white now?
Turn 1: Goldmeadow Stalwart or Mosquito Guard (1 Kithkin)
Turn 2: Knight of the meadow grain (2 Kithkin) or two One drops (3 Kithkins)
Turn 3: Preeminent Captain (4 Kithkins)
Turn 4: Two 2 drops (6 kithkins), Or hold mana for removal like O-ring and drop another Kithkin with the O-ring... or if you're lucky drop several one CC kithkins. Attack with the captain, put into play the borderguard at 7/7 or higher.
That is of course assuming all your smaller kithkin survive... not likely but at least several should and if you use turn 4 to drive out several kithkin before you swing with the Captain it could give you a much larger borderguard. then you could even Wrath the next turn, clear the board, and have 7 1/1 soldiers in play.
I don't know how that compares with other decks but it was something i noticed and not to hard to pull off if things go well. Though it is more likely to be a 5/5.
If you watch the latest magic show, Mark Rosewater acknowledges that they've been trying to fix white for some time now. He says that white's supposed to be the "defensive color" (either via creatures or spells) and they're trying hard to make that so without making white feel slower, or boring. As for the future of white, he asks us to look at oblivion ring and then think of that as a starting point for the future.
Yes but all the control elements are paired with a 2/2 body. So you start from an aggro point off view.
No, it starts from a hybrid point of view.
I'd like to hear your suggested alternative to giving white a hybrid, aggro-control identity, taking into account that blue and black are just as control-centric as red and green are aggro-centric.
And, this off course depends at how you look at the history of the game, but for me, the tempest block is part of the 'new magic generation', not off the old classic ones.
I don't think that's a particularly defensible position today in 2008, given that Tempest was released eleven years ago, before the game-changing Sixth Edition rules, the first Pro Tour featuring the Extended format, the creation of blocks with themes, or even basic Magic theory concepts like mana curve and tempo advantage. At this point there are probably kids learning to play Magic who weren't alive when Tempest was released.
For whatever reason Wizards is "afraid" of White. They're perfectly willing to push the power level of every other color by shaving a mana cost here or adding a little extra there, but when it comes to White they always seem to err on the side of caution and it shows. Most creatures in White with more than 2 power costs 5+ mana or have a severe drawback. Or just go and re-read some of the "Cards we thought would be good, but weren't" type articles on wizards.com, the idea that Wizards is afraid of making white weenie too good comes up with some frequency.
I understand why they don't want weenie decks to be too good, I don't want them to be dominant either because the meta-game would suck, but if they were at least competitive that would be nice. Either way with most of White's playable creatures being weenies, and White seemingly being completely incapable of getting a decent 3 or 4 drop creature printed, just what do they expect White to do? If Weenies aren't allowed to be "too good" but White doesn't get any mid-range creatures (or something potent enough to disrupt the opponent's mid-game) then I don't know how is White supposed to win, like ever.
I've been thinking about the rules-setting side of white and have come to two conclusions. The first is that white doesn't necessarily need to set new rules with its cards, it can just enforce the ones already in place. Other colors have access to abilities that get around the normal rules of Magic. Normally, you can only draw 1 card per turn, but blue allows you to get around that rule. Normally, you can only play 1 land per turn, but green gets around that rule with non-land mana makers. Maybe white could start to get cards that read:
"Players may not draw more than one card each turn."
Or
"Mana abilities from non-land permanents may not be played."
These are simple abilities that could be powerful, but they don't seem to break the game at all.
The second idea that I had was that whatever happens to white, has to happen on many cards. Counterspells and direct damage are powerful because you can easily build a deck with 12, 16, or more cards with those themes. White doesn't have a strong repeated ability like that. Life gain is common of course, but they never seem to make more than 1 playable life gain spell per block. If white goes the rules-making/enforcing route, it has to be on quite a few cards at all rarities. The same goes for taxing effects. We need a theme for white, not just a new power card.
If you watch the latest magic show, Mark Rosewater acknowledges that they've been trying to fix white for some time now. He says that white's supposed to be the "defensive color" (either via creatures or spells) and they're trying hard to make that so without making white feel slower, or boring. As for the future of white, he asks us to look at oblivion ring and then think of that as a starting point for the future.
I didn't hear him say boring. I heard him say they want to make White the defensive color, but still have games that end.
necrogenesis, you might be on to something big with that point on themes. White's only "theme" is 2/2s for 2. As anyone can tell you, "creature" is not the kind of spell that can make a deck better with redundancy (particularly not if they're all at the same mana slot, for Chrissake), not in the same way as burn, or counterspells, anyway.
Yeah, that's definitely it. If White wants creatures, they have to be all throughout the curve. That's why Green can work - Green can make lots of little little guys, and has Ravenous Baloths. White only has two kinds of bodies: chumps, and Angels. Can't use too many Angels.
*~*~*~
It seems to me that control centers on Blue, and aggro infects from the other end of the pie, creating the hybrid creatures we call White and Black. However, Black never ends up with an aggro-control strategy (except when Green has the right stuff), rather, either going for MBC, or making another "suicide" deck. This is wrong.
Also, what's up with Red control decks? Red control... it's an oxymoron...
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Red control is based around mana denial, something that Wizards has said people don't like, so it doesn't get pushed.
-E
But someone playing solitaire against you is fun?
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FI've always thought this is what white needs to stand proud with the other colors:
Binding Contract 1W
Enchantment
During your upkeep, pay W or sacrifice Binding Contract.
Each player skips his or her untap phase.
That's what I call setting rules. Also, I recall that white was once the color of enchantments. Plus, it'd go well with Frozen AEther and Serra Sphinx, haha.
P.S. The ash character apparently breaks autocarding. Anyway, I know it's actually "Frozen Æther"... so no need to post a correction.
Black does do aggro control. The Rock is such a deck - it just pairs up with a better creature colour and adds powerful discard and kill spells.
But the Rock doesn't always work. Indeed, it 'seldom' is viable. And, once you put in so much Green, significantly, is the deck really still Black?
I need you to tell me about Rock, but I would believe Black to be satisfactorily aggro-control only if the Black parts of the deck, only insofar as they are Black spells, are used in the aggro-control sense. If it's the case that, I can cut up the deck into aggro and control, and find I have cut it by color as well, I'm not going to believe Black is really acting aggro-control in this deck.
Recall, even if Rock is aggro-control in the above sense, it still remains that Black is not well when Rock isn't viable.
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The second idea that I had was that whatever happens to white, has to happen on many cards. Counterspells and direct damage are powerful because you can easily build a deck with 12, 16, or more cards with those themes. White doesn't have a strong repeated ability like that. (...) If white goes the rules-making/enforcing route, it has to be on quite a few cards at all rarities. The same goes for taxing effects. We need a theme for white, not just a new power card.
Exactly my thoughts, and I left the "taxing" part of the quote because taxing is something that could really benefit from redundancy. If white gets multiple playable taxing effects, it will be possible to get to a game state where the opponent will have too many taxes to pay, and not enough resources to spend on them, and thus won't be able to stop white's offensive. That's exactly what white needs in place of speed, because let's be frank, white will never be one of the speediest colors in the game (it wouldn't even feel right if it were anyway).
If white gets multiple playable taxing effects, it will be possible to get to a game state where the opponent will have too many taxes to pay, and not enough resources to spend on them, and thus won't be able to stop white's offensive. That's exactly what white needs in place of speed, because let's be frank, white will never be one of the speediest colors in the game (it wouldn't even feel right if it were anyway).
That's the problem right there. R&D doesn't want unfun, onesided matches anywhere in the magic community, so too many "taxing" cards will A: never see the light of day and B: probably lead white into a corner, where all it can do is tax, and nothing else. I speak mostly in terms of standard, with the small cardpool and all. Another mechanic (probably lifelink) will (i think) shortly become what white is "known" for. If my wildest, craziest dream, white's new mechanic would be RFGing things (at the cost of saccing creatures or causing the opponent to gain life).
One I think just because MaRo says mana denial is unfun does not make it so. He also thought tarmogoyf was balanced.
I think white should get two things added or increased into its reptoire.
Punishing others for not white or gaining effects by being white.
ie
Eternal Twilight 2ww
Echantment
All lands now produce white mana instead of their normal mana.
Kithkin Scarecrow 1
Tribal Artifact Creature-Kithkin Construct
If you control only plains among land types kthkin scarecrow gets +1/+2
1/1
Spiritual Lapse 1w
Counter target non-white spell put it on top of the controllers library.
Also again one of maros blunder was to move around evergreen keywords taking a lot of whites and uping the others.
White needed more keywords to compensate for its smaller creatures.
Indestructible should bleed into white on fairly common basis.
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Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
One I think just because MaRo says mana denial is unfun does not make it so. He also thought tarmogoyf was balanced.
There wasn't enough time to playtest Tarmogoyf because it was added at the last minute when the Planeswalkers were pulled and a hole for a Green Rare was created.
Kithkin Scarecrow 1
Tribal Artifact Creature-Kithkin Construct
If you control only plains among land types kthkin scarecrow gets +1/+2
1/1
This does not need Tribal.
Indestructible should bleed into white on fairly common basis.
I have to disagree here. 'Fairly common'? No. Other colors will have a hard time dealing with Indestructible permanents, especially since White itself has the best RFG tools. However, I do think that Indestructible could see more play in White, especially if the theme calls for pious creatures, showing that they are enchanted with their god's (or gods') might. The same could be said of other colors, but White usually ends up being the most religious (might have something to do with the rules and order themes).
Blue and black can easily deal with indestructable creatures.
Red can still burn over their head or take control of them and sac them to Greater gargadon like effects.
And green has bigger creatures that can trample over.
I know it got pushed through to early but he thought it was fine and he was wrong was my point.
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I think I know one way that White could "defend" its way to victory.
You know how a basic, limited game (or an aggro-control. or even aggro game) is played by slightly slow-rolling your opponent, with your basic threats, trying to race, forcing the other guy to be the one who has to "do something"? Then, you exhaust some resources, and then pull out some bomby stuff, which doesn't even have to be that bomby - it just has to be better than what's there, and the topdeck (or pseudotopdeck) mode makes it very threatening and dangerous?
Well, I think the way White could use 'defense' to mount an offense, would be basically this: White can move on to the "play dangerous guys" part, faster. White can either cost you dearly for trying to hurt its dudes, or, it could have some method, of playing its better guys, with less risk.
Indestructible creatures simply shouldn't be common (in the everyday sense of 'common'). I mean, indestructible. How do you make something indestructible? There's only the darksteel metal, and Konda (plus some errata'd oldies). It's a very unique property. It certainly has its weaknesses, but the no block could take a wealth of indestructible creatures lying around.
*~*~*~
There wasn't enough time to playtest Tarmogoyf because it was added at the last minute when the Planeswalkers were pulled and a hole for a Green Rare was created.
The point is, Mark shouldn't have to say how powerful a card is. (A), he's frickin' Rosewater, they know he doesn't know what he's talkin' 'bout; (B), he's a designer, not a developer. It's not his responsibility.
I like the idea of combining white's strengths of solid weenies with "taxing" effects that has been brought up. Something like
Kithkin Cartographer
WW
Kithkin Advisor
When Kithkin Cartographer comes into play, choose a creature type.
Whenever an opponent puts a land into play, he or she must pay 1 for each creature of the chosen type you control, or sacrifice the land.
2/2
This could be potentially powerful, but hardly impossible to deal with. It plays nice with tribal themes and at the worst buys you a turn. More cards along this line would help push white to playable I think.
[quote=Parabola01;/comments/6068778]There wasn't enough time to playtest Tarmogoyf because it was added at the last minute when the Planeswalkers were pulled and a hole for a Green Rare was created.
Not sure this is correct - as I read it on a MaRo column about the Planeswalkers, the set was designed with its full suite of rares, and Tarmogoyf was swapped out when the planeswalkers went into the file. When they left it was swapped back in. Otherwise, had there been a need for hurried gap-fillers in black, red, white and blue, how is it none of them ended up with cards that hadn't been properly playtested?
My feeling is that Tarmo is like Rancor - a card deliberately costed and tested at what was thought to be a fair cost, but which in retrospect would have been given a higher cost because of the effect it had on the environment. But this is something that can only be judged when the card is out there in Standard. Tarmogoyf fits on the curve - it's not excessive for what green can get at this cost. It's format-defining mostly because it's splashable and because green in general is undergoing a resurgence - when Tarmo hit a few decks splashed green just to play it, but mostly these days it's just being run in Rock and Elves which are the dominant green decks for reasons that have little to nothing to do with Tarmogoyf. In short, Tarmo at 1G is a powerful, balanced card that just happens to be in one of Standard's most popular colours, it's not undertested or overpowered in its own right. Same's true of Garruk, which equals or beats Tarmo for ubiquity and, we've been told, was among the five cards subjected to a greater level of playtesting than any in Magic history.
Not sure this is correct - as I read it on a MaRo column about the Planeswalkers, the set was designed with its full suite of rares, and Tarmogoyf was swapped out when the planeswalkers went into the file. When they left it was swapped back in. Otherwise, had there been a need for hurried gap-fillers in black, red, white and blue, how is it none of them ended up with cards that hadn't been properly playtested?
My feeling is that Tarmo is like Rancor - a card deliberately costed and tested at what was thought to be a fair cost, but which in retrospect would have been given a higher cost because of the effect it had on the environment. But this is something that can only be judged when the card is out there in Standard. Tarmogoyf fits on the curve - it's not excessive for what green can get at this cost. It's format-defining mostly because it's splashable and because green in general is undergoing a resurgence - when Tarmo hit a few decks splashed green just to play it, but mostly these days it's just being run in Rock and Elves which are the dominant green decks for reasons that have little to nothing to do with Tarmogoyf. In short, Tarmo at 1G is a powerful, balanced card that just happens to be in one of Standard's most popular colours, it's not undertested or overpowered in its own right. Same's true of Garruk, which equals or beats Tarmo for ubiquity and, we've been told, was among the five cards subjected to a greater level of playtesting than any in Magic history.
Phil
See thats what I dont get. How does a two drop fit greens curve? White is supposed to be the weenie color yet green keeps getting better two drops.
And when has white ruled the skies? Im pretty sure thatit was for a short time in mirrodin/kamigawa block and it went back to blue and black. What powerful fliers does white have? Serra Avenger and white shield crusader* thats it versus an entire tribe.
And I know it will never be admitted but they just didnt want kithkin or soldiers to be that good. 2 kithkin one that wasnt even in lorwyn with protection. 1 playable kithkin with an evasion that you have to pay for.
Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
In Standard Goyf isnt that good, but in Legacy its awesome. Almost every deck can splash it and its normally a 4/5 for cc2.
Best Creature ever made, but not broken enough to ban it.
Well, i cant understand the Whitediscussion, because Kithikindeck is awesome.
Captain and Entity can be Game in Round 4. Its Wrathproofed with Borderguard, has 2 Lords with Fireld Marshal and Cenn. Also has 2/2 onedrop, Militias Pride for Rush..
Good Removal with Oblivion Ring, Coordinated Barrage and even Counter with Manatithe..
My feeling is that Tarmo is like Rancor - a card deliberately costed and tested at what was thought to be a fair cost, but which in retrospect would have been given a higher cost because of the effect it had on the environment.
The story for this category was told recently on this site. A few weeks ago Bill Rose, the head of R&D answered an “Ask Wizards” about Rancor. You see, ever since Rancor was released, there’s been a rumor that R&D actually meant to print Rancor at but due to a layout snafu, got priced at . Bill’s response:
A: From Bill Rose, head of Research & Development:
"The short answer is: I don't know. No one will ever know.
"As I recall, Rancor originally was , and it didn't have the 'deathback' mechanic, meaning it wouldn't return to your hand. In an effort to make some tournament-quality creature enchantments, Rancor's cost was lowered to . Then the deathback mechanic was added. After that, the Magic developers disagree on what happened. There was a debate about Rancor's cost. The group who wanted Rancor costed at argued at it would be good, but not broken. The '' group believes they won and Rancor was published as the development team wanted. The '' group believes they won, but that the lead developer forgot to change the file sent to typesetting.
"Given the choice between and , I would cost Rancor at . But given a time machine, I would cost it at ."
A day after this “Ask Wizards” question was posted, I was visited by Mike Elliott, the lead designer of Urza’s Legacy and one of its developers. Mike asked if he could rebut Bill’s answer. (Mike, you see, remembered the whole thing differently.) I said sure. “Send a letter to ‘Ask Wizards’ and you can reply to it yourself.”
You have to understand that I was dead serious. So, I’m publicly calling Mike out. Hey Mike, write the letter! We’ll see what happens.
W Oblivion Orb
Enchantment
When Oblivion Orb comes into play,
target opponent reveals his or her hand.
Choose a noncreature, nonland card and remove
it from the game.
When Oblivion Orb leaves play, return
the removed card to its owner's hand.
??? No he is not overpowerd he just warped every format from t2 over t1.x to t1.5........ balanced ??? Sorry but a creature which is often 4/5 and sometimes 5/6 and comes down at turn 2 in 1.5 mostly with Force backup there is balanced?? oki enough of flameing back to white^^
Sorry but I find it hard to call a card broken when just about every peice of removal in every format its played in kills it.
Goyf is really good, but honestly, its in the color that is supposed to get good creatures.
The thing people overlook is that while goyf IS 2 mana, it usually isn't all that big if you drop it on turn 2. It gets good a turn or two later.
Much like Serrra Avenger, who can't be dropped until later but costs 2. I would argue that the avenger is less appropriate for white than goyf is for green because they are both good in the midgame creature sense.
In any event, I don't think that freaking out about tarmogoyf (the popular thing to do these days) is really all that pertinent to white's problems.
Oblivion ring is a great card and I expect to see white get an overhaul much like green has sometime in the near future.
Not sure this is correct - as I read it on a MaRo column about the Planeswalkers, the set was designed with its full suite of rares, and Tarmogoyf was swapped out when the planeswalkers went into the file. When they left it was swapped back in. Otherwise, had there been a need for hurried gap-fillers in black, red, white and blue, how is it none of them ended up with cards that hadn't been properly playtested?
Well, we can't know that those other cards were "improperly playtested." If the cards happened to already be at a power level anywhere between "fair" and "terrible," we'd never notice their lack of playtesting simply because no one would successfully abuse them. It's only when cards creep above the "good" power line that we notice.
Tarmogoyf's story is almost identical in the key details with those of both Skullclamp and Jitte; it was absent from the file for most of the development process, then added in its current form at a very late point. It seems likely that no one gave the card's basic mechanic enough consideration to recognize that the card needed testing, and instead they costed it based on assumptions drawn from previous Lhurgoyf cards. (I'd find it quite difficult to believe it was tested almost at all -- making the initial decision to give Tarmogoyf a deck slot was a leap for people, but it's easy to quickly see how powerful it is even in a deck that isn't tuned for its presence.)
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Turn 1: Goldmeadow Stalwart or Mosquito Guard (1 Kithkin)
Turn 2: Knight of the meadow grain (2 Kithkin) or two One drops (3 Kithkins)
Turn 3: Preeminent Captain (4 Kithkins)
Turn 4: Two 2 drops (6 kithkins), Or hold mana for removal like O-ring and drop another Kithkin with the O-ring... or if you're lucky drop several one CC kithkins. Attack with the captain, put into play the borderguard at 7/7 or higher.
That is of course assuming all your smaller kithkin survive... not likely but at least several should and if you use turn 4 to drive out several kithkin before you swing with the Captain it could give you a much larger borderguard. then you could even Wrath the next turn, clear the board, and have 7 1/1 soldiers in play.
I don't know how that compares with other decks but it was something i noticed and not to hard to pull off if things go well. Though it is more likely to be a 5/5.
RB Olivia Voldaren RB
GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons GB
BWR Queen Marchesa BWR
RW Anya, Merciless Angel RW
UW Bruna, Light of Alabaster UW
UB Wydwen, The Biting Gale UB
GU Momir Vig, simic visionary GU
WG Karametra, God of Harvests WG
WUBSydri, Galvanic GeniusWUB
No, it starts from a hybrid point of view.
I'd like to hear your suggested alternative to giving white a hybrid, aggro-control identity, taking into account that blue and black are just as control-centric as red and green are aggro-centric.
I don't think that's a particularly defensible position today in 2008, given that Tempest was released eleven years ago, before the game-changing Sixth Edition rules, the first Pro Tour featuring the Extended format, the creation of blocks with themes, or even basic Magic theory concepts like mana curve and tempo advantage. At this point there are probably kids learning to play Magic who weren't alive when Tempest was released.
I understand why they don't want weenie decks to be too good, I don't want them to be dominant either because the meta-game would suck, but if they were at least competitive that would be nice. Either way with most of White's playable creatures being weenies, and White seemingly being completely incapable of getting a decent 3 or 4 drop creature printed, just what do they expect White to do? If Weenies aren't allowed to be "too good" but White doesn't get any mid-range creatures (or something potent enough to disrupt the opponent's mid-game) then I don't know how is White supposed to win, like ever.
"Players may not draw more than one card each turn."
Or
"Mana abilities from non-land permanents may not be played."
These are simple abilities that could be powerful, but they don't seem to break the game at all.
The second idea that I had was that whatever happens to white, has to happen on many cards. Counterspells and direct damage are powerful because you can easily build a deck with 12, 16, or more cards with those themes. White doesn't have a strong repeated ability like that. Life gain is common of course, but they never seem to make more than 1 playable life gain spell per block. If white goes the rules-making/enforcing route, it has to be on quite a few cards at all rarities. The same goes for taxing effects. We need a theme for white, not just a new power card.
I didn't hear him say boring. I heard him say they want to make White the defensive color, but still have games that end.
necrogenesis, you might be on to something big with that point on themes. White's only "theme" is 2/2s for 2. As anyone can tell you, "creature" is not the kind of spell that can make a deck better with redundancy (particularly not if they're all at the same mana slot, for Chrissake), not in the same way as burn, or counterspells, anyway.
Yeah, that's definitely it. If White wants creatures, they have to be all throughout the curve. That's why Green can work - Green can make lots of little little guys, and has Ravenous Baloths. White only has two kinds of bodies: chumps, and Angels. Can't use too many Angels.
*~*~*~
It seems to me that control centers on Blue, and aggro infects from the other end of the pie, creating the hybrid creatures we call White and Black. However, Black never ends up with an aggro-control strategy (except when Green has the right stuff), rather, either going for MBC, or making another "suicide" deck. This is wrong.
Also, what's up with Red control decks? Red control... it's an oxymoron...
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Red control is based around mana denial, something that Wizards has said people don't like, so it doesn't get pushed.
-E
But someone playing solitaire against you is fun?
Binding Contract 1W
Enchantment
During your upkeep, pay W or sacrifice Binding Contract.
Each player skips his or her untap phase.
That's what I call setting rules. Also, I recall that white was once the color of enchantments. Plus, it'd go well with Frozen AEther and Serra Sphinx, haha.
P.S. The ash character apparently breaks autocarding. Anyway, I know it's actually "Frozen Æther"... so no need to post a correction.
Replies:
"Mythic rarity doesn't make another 'Goyf priced card inevitable any more than printing more cards makes another 'Goyf inevitable." -UrzasSedatives
"Seriously, $80 cards? There's no conceivable way. If even one mythic card hit that price point, everyone and their mother would start buying boxes of Alara to "flip" him." -Charlequin
Being listened to would've beat saying I TOLD YOU SO 3 years later.
But the Rock doesn't always work. Indeed, it 'seldom' is viable. And, once you put in so much Green, significantly, is the deck really still Black?
I need you to tell me about Rock, but I would believe Black to be satisfactorily aggro-control only if the Black parts of the deck, only insofar as they are Black spells, are used in the aggro-control sense. If it's the case that, I can cut up the deck into aggro and control, and find I have cut it by color as well, I'm not going to believe Black is really acting aggro-control in this deck.
Recall, even if Rock is aggro-control in the above sense, it still remains that Black is not well when Rock isn't viable.
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That's the problem right there. R&D doesn't want unfun, onesided matches anywhere in the magic community, so too many "taxing" cards will A: never see the light of day and B: probably lead white into a corner, where all it can do is tax, and nothing else. I speak mostly in terms of standard, with the small cardpool and all. Another mechanic (probably lifelink) will (i think) shortly become what white is "known" for. If my wildest, craziest dream, white's new mechanic would be RFGing things (at the cost of saccing creatures or causing the opponent to gain life).
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I think white should get two things added or increased into its reptoire.
Punishing others for not white or gaining effects by being white.
ie
Eternal Twilight 2ww
Echantment
All lands now produce white mana instead of their normal mana.
Kithkin Scarecrow 1
Tribal Artifact Creature-Kithkin Construct
If you control only plains among land types kthkin scarecrow gets +1/+2
1/1
Spiritual Lapse 1w
Counter target non-white spell put it on top of the controllers library.
Also again one of maros blunder was to move around evergreen keywords taking a lot of whites and uping the others.
White needed more keywords to compensate for its smaller creatures.
Indestructible should bleed into white on fairly common basis.
There wasn't enough time to playtest Tarmogoyf because it was added at the last minute when the Planeswalkers were pulled and a hole for a Green Rare was created.
This does not need Tribal.
I have to disagree here. 'Fairly common'? No. Other colors will have a hard time dealing with Indestructible permanents, especially since White itself has the best RFG tools. However, I do think that Indestructible could see more play in White, especially if the theme calls for pious creatures, showing that they are enchanted with their god's (or gods') might. The same could be said of other colors, but White usually ends up being the most religious (might have something to do with the rules and order themes).
Red can still burn over their head or take control of them and sac them to Greater gargadon like effects.
And green has bigger creatures that can trample over.
I know it got pushed through to early but he thought it was fine and he was wrong was my point.
You know how a basic, limited game (or an aggro-control. or even aggro game) is played by slightly slow-rolling your opponent, with your basic threats, trying to race, forcing the other guy to be the one who has to "do something"? Then, you exhaust some resources, and then pull out some bomby stuff, which doesn't even have to be that bomby - it just has to be better than what's there, and the topdeck (or pseudotopdeck) mode makes it very threatening and dangerous?
Well, I think the way White could use 'defense' to mount an offense, would be basically this: White can move on to the "play dangerous guys" part, faster. White can either cost you dearly for trying to hurt its dudes, or, it could have some method, of playing its better guys, with less risk.
Indestructible creatures simply shouldn't be common (in the everyday sense of 'common'). I mean, indestructible. How do you make something indestructible? There's only the darksteel metal, and Konda (plus some errata'd oldies). It's a very unique property. It certainly has its weaknesses, but the no block could take a wealth of indestructible creatures lying around.
*~*~*~
The point is, Mark shouldn't have to say how powerful a card is. (A), he's frickin' Rosewater, they know he doesn't know what he's talkin' 'bout; (B), he's a designer, not a developer. It's not his responsibility.
Did they learn nothing from Skullclamp? Nothing?
Honestly.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Kithkin Cartographer
WW
Kithkin Advisor
When Kithkin Cartographer comes into play, choose a creature type.
Whenever an opponent puts a land into play, he or she must pay 1 for each creature of the chosen type you control, or sacrifice the land.
2/2
This could be potentially powerful, but hardly impossible to deal with. It plays nice with tribal themes and at the worst buys you a turn. More cards along this line would help push white to playable I think.
Not sure this is correct - as I read it on a MaRo column about the Planeswalkers, the set was designed with its full suite of rares, and Tarmogoyf was swapped out when the planeswalkers went into the file. When they left it was swapped back in. Otherwise, had there been a need for hurried gap-fillers in black, red, white and blue, how is it none of them ended up with cards that hadn't been properly playtested?
My feeling is that Tarmo is like Rancor - a card deliberately costed and tested at what was thought to be a fair cost, but which in retrospect would have been given a higher cost because of the effect it had on the environment. But this is something that can only be judged when the card is out there in Standard. Tarmogoyf fits on the curve - it's not excessive for what green can get at this cost. It's format-defining mostly because it's splashable and because green in general is undergoing a resurgence - when Tarmo hit a few decks splashed green just to play it, but mostly these days it's just being run in Rock and Elves which are the dominant green decks for reasons that have little to nothing to do with Tarmogoyf. In short, Tarmo at 1G is a powerful, balanced card that just happens to be in one of Standard's most popular colours, it's not undertested or overpowered in its own right. Same's true of Garruk, which equals or beats Tarmo for ubiquity and, we've been told, was among the five cards subjected to a greater level of playtesting than any in Magic history.
Phil
See thats what I dont get. How does a two drop fit greens curve? White is supposed to be the weenie color yet green keeps getting better two drops.
And when has white ruled the skies? Im pretty sure thatit was for a short time in mirrodin/kamigawa block and it went back to blue and black. What powerful fliers does white have? Serra Avenger and white shield crusader* thats it versus an entire tribe.
And I know it will never be admitted but they just didnt want kithkin or soldiers to be that good. 2 kithkin one that wasnt even in lorwyn with protection. 1 playable kithkin with an evasion that you have to pay for.
Best Creature ever made, but not broken enough to ban it.
Well, i cant understand the Whitediscussion, because Kithikindeck is awesome.
Captain and Entity can be Game in Round 4. Its Wrathproofed with Borderguard, has 2 Lords with Fireld Marshal and Cenn. Also has 2/2 onedrop, Militias Pride for Rush..
Good Removal with Oblivion Ring, Coordinated Barrage and even Counter with Manatithe..
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr16
The story for this category was told recently on this site. A few weeks ago Bill Rose, the head of R&D answered an “Ask Wizards” about Rancor. You see, ever since Rancor was released, there’s been a rumor that R&D actually meant to print Rancor at but due to a layout snafu, got priced at . Bill’s response:
A day after this “Ask Wizards” question was posted, I was visited by Mike Elliott, the lead designer of Urza’s Legacy and one of its developers. Mike asked if he could rebut Bill’s answer. (Mike, you see, remembered the whole thing differently.) I said sure. “Send a letter to ‘Ask Wizards’ and you can reply to it yourself.”
You have to understand that I was dead serious. So, I’m publicly calling Mike out. Hey Mike, write the letter! We’ll see what happens.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Enchantment
When Oblivion Orb comes into play,
target opponent reveals his or her hand.
Choose a noncreature, nonland card and remove
it from the game.
When Oblivion Orb leaves play, return
the removed card to its owner's hand.
Sorry but I find it hard to call a card broken when just about every peice of removal in every format its played in kills it.
Goyf is really good, but honestly, its in the color that is supposed to get good creatures.
The thing people overlook is that while goyf IS 2 mana, it usually isn't all that big if you drop it on turn 2. It gets good a turn or two later.
Much like Serrra Avenger, who can't be dropped until later but costs 2. I would argue that the avenger is less appropriate for white than goyf is for green because they are both good in the midgame creature sense.
In any event, I don't think that freaking out about tarmogoyf (the popular thing to do these days) is really all that pertinent to white's problems.
Oblivion ring is a great card and I expect to see white get an overhaul much like green has sometime in the near future.
Well, we can't know that those other cards were "improperly playtested." If the cards happened to already be at a power level anywhere between "fair" and "terrible," we'd never notice their lack of playtesting simply because no one would successfully abuse them. It's only when cards creep above the "good" power line that we notice.
Tarmogoyf's story is almost identical in the key details with those of both Skullclamp and Jitte; it was absent from the file for most of the development process, then added in its current form at a very late point. It seems likely that no one gave the card's basic mechanic enough consideration to recognize that the card needed testing, and instead they costed it based on assumptions drawn from previous Lhurgoyf cards. (I'd find it quite difficult to believe it was tested almost at all -- making the initial decision to give Tarmogoyf a deck slot was a leap for people, but it's easy to quickly see how powerful it is even in a deck that isn't tuned for its presence.)