To be fair, there was something in the Arcana a while back which mentioned a card called Barry's Land, a land that counted as every basic land type and as a basic land type itself.
It never made it into Invasion like it was supposed to (to support the Domain theme they had going).
Conflux could be an example, but it sounds more like a sorcery or instant than a land.
'buster
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'buster
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It seems like a lot of you don't really understand the possible boundaries here. What we're talking about is a basic land. It can't have two abilities or complicated, difficult to adjudicate rules. It would be printed as a common (possibly even as one per pack) and would need an effect so simple that it could be quickly and briefly written in reminder text on other lands that have the effect.
None of those things are necessarily true. "Basic" is a supertype that can theoretically be applied to any permanent. Rule 212.6g can be easily modified to allow a basic land which has complex rules associated with it.
If there are no dual lands printed with the new basic land type, and Conflux is the only Basic Land-Conflux, then confusing reminder text is not an issue. The only concern they'd have then is spells which change lands into basic lands, and even then they could make rules changes or errata which render that a non-issue (just like your Coalition Victory example.)
No, none of those things are required to be true by the Comprehensive Rules. They are "necessarily" true because the definition of basic land types affects every format and every card that can grant basic land types, so any new basic land must be simple enough to remember with 100% accuracy without a card reference handy.
If we see a new basic land, I can't see it being anything except for: T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
It would be good for Domain spells. And it would pave the way for another mechanic - colorless cards/costs that can only be paid with colorless mana (which I think is the mechanic they tried in Mirrodin and later discarded).
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Quote from parinoid »
I rolled 5 D6's and got 3 fours. They must have changed the odds of getting a 4!
If we see a new basic land, I can't see it being anything except for: T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
I can. It could easily be without rules baggage altogether. Conflux (which I still maintain doesn't sound like a land, but whatever. There have been stupider names) would have the ability (because all lands produce mana) but it wouldn't need to be tied to the land type. This would be fine:
Conflux
Basic Land - Conflux
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
Maybe with reminder text saying that it's a basic land type, but that's not necessary.
I see no particular reason why the land type should include this rules baggage. Surely all lands upon which it appears will already produce mana, so what's the point of adding a redundant ability?
I can. It could easily be without rules baggage altogether. Conflux (which I still maintain doesn't sound like a land, but whatever. There have been stupider names) would have the ability (because all lands produce mana) but it wouldn't need to be tied to the land type. This would be fine:
Conflux
Basic Land - Conflux
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
Maybe with reminder text saying that it's a basic land type, but that's not necessary.
I see no particular reason why the land type should include this rules baggage. Surely all lands upon which it appears will already produce mana, so what's the point of adding a redundant ability?
Apparently you're saying exactly the same thing I said, but your post starts as a disagreement. I don't get it, maybe I'm misreading something.
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Quote from parinoid »
I rolled 5 D6's and got 3 fours. They must have changed the odds of getting a 4!
It seems like a lot of you don't really understand the possible boundaries here. What we're talking about is a basic land. It can't have two abilities or complicated, difficult to adjudicate rules. It would be printed as a common (possibly even as one per pack) and would need an effect so simple that it could be quickly and briefly written in reminder text on other lands that have the effect.
What about it? R&D are not going to be held back by one card that's not even Extended playable anymore. They'll just errata it to name the relevant colors and land types directly.
Right now I'm drinking a lot of water and several seemingly obvious things now struck me as somehow brilliant.
Water, as far as it concerns Basic Lands, is usually related to U (even the symbol is a waterdrop). But the word island itself implies that there are other elements/minerals present, there's not only water, but also land. A lake can't be an Island, a sea can't be an Island; most water bodies can't be islands. Now, Conflux suggests water also, but a coming together or rivers (etymology: prefix con-=together+flux=constant/temporary fluid movement). And here's the obvious thing: water is... (drums) COLORLESS!!!
(also odorless and tasteless for that matter, but that doesn't matter.)
This, in a way, means that making Conflux the next basic land is actually the most logical path to take and I guess many players (including me, since now I'm hoping for it) will be upset is this doesn't end up being the case.
At first I thought that making a basic land that adds NO color would be strictly worse than the 5 strictly worst cards in the history of Magic. But considering many things, like the novelty of changes done for good in the game (the inclusion of Yu-Gi-Oh! Rares aka Mythic Rares, for example), this is actually possible. (Maybe as possible as Relentless Rats being a "Basic Creature" in 11th, which I wished had been the case back in Xth).
Now, what about 11th? Will Conflux be there? I know MaRo has repeatedly said that there will be many changes in the next core set (probably there'll be even Mythic rares and Planeswalkers, the ones from Lorwyn, reprinted at that rarity in 11th.)
Also, making a basic land that produces coloress mana will be more useful for playing... ehm... artifacts... and a board full of artifacts seems too much like... Esper. Again, here we come with the preference for U (can't blame them, I also think it's the best color), and we've all been noticing how WotC has been trying over the years to shift the "favorite kid" status from blue to green. This makes a colorless mana-producing basic land less likely, but, who knows? I even thought of Conflux producing one and a half colorless mana, seeing that many Un-things in Magic are nowadays normal:D. (A man can dream, can't he?)
Apparently you're saying exactly the same thing I said, but your post starts as a disagreement. I don't get it, maybe I'm misreading something.
Throughout this thread is the assumption, explicitly stated or implied, that a new basic land type will have rules baggage. It was this I was disagreeing with. I didn't mean to single out your post, I was just using it to segue into this point that everyone is overlooking. You and I were talking about different things. You were talking about what the land would do, but I was talking about what the land type would do. The disagreement was to the belief that these would be the same thing.
No, none of those things are required to be true by the Comprehensive Rules. They are "necessarily" true because the definition of basic land types affects every format and every card that can grant basic land types, so any new basic land must be simple enough to remember with 100% accuracy without a card reference handy.
QFT. Also, if the make the 6th basic land anything more complicated than "t: Add 1 to your mana pool", it closes doors. The 5 "dual lands" using conflux and each basic land tap I still think are a good idea, especially with Firespout seeing so much play, and you couldn't do something like that if there are multiple abilities included on Conflux. I know whenever people start talking about designing a card everyone wants to one up each other with their awesome design skills, but it's a basic land. Sometimes things need to be simple.
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I'm starting to think that Conflux as a basic land is a really fun idea. However will it create it's own basic land type or just be a basic land that counts as all basic lands without the tap for each ability?
My guess it will be it's own land type, because being all land types without typing for mana is convoluted and doesn't make sense with current inheritage clauses.
I know whenever people start talking about designing a card everyone wants to one up each other with their awesome design skills, but it's a basic land. Sometimes things need to be simple.
I don't think it's design fever motivating these people (me included) so much as the belief that, if they're going to add a 6th basic land, it should do something interesting. It seems anticlimactic to add a 6th basic land type and have it tap for colorless, although I do understand that's the original Barry's land idea.
Flavorwise, such a result would also be odd. "Conflux" means a "place of junction", or where things come together. That sounds like something that can produce multiple colors of mana, not something that can produce only colorless. Why would they pick the name "Conflux" for such a land?
I don't think it's design fever motivating these people (me included) so much as the belief that, if they're going to add a 6th basic land, it should do something interesting. It seems anticlimactic to add a 6th basic land type and have it tap for colorless, although I do understand that's the original Barry's land idea.
It may seem anticlimactic, but it opens a LOT of doors, design wise, in terms of making that land type more relevant. There are a ton of non-basic land that tap for a colourless mana and then have another ability (Library of Alexandria, Academy Ruins, etc.) Now imagine that future lands designed in such a way have the ability to have a basic land type tacked on to them, as well as cards that make that basic land type relevant (either via domain effects, or fetching). If you make the basic land do anything besides just tap for colourless, it closes off a lot of design space.
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If Nichol Bolas was the one who split Alara into its shards, wouldn't it make sense that one of the reasons for bringing them together would be to gain something? He gained something by splitting them, now he would gain something else: a new, stable source of mana to draw from; thus, a sixth basic land. So, the first planeswalker ever would increase his power even more, perhaps to make up for the fact that after the events of Time Spiral, he's mortal again. This is one of the interesting ways you could make it work from a flavor perspective.
I hope that came out the way I wanted it to.
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Modern: RUG Tempo
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If you make the basic land do anything besides just tap for colourless, it closes off a lot of design space.
What about tapping for purple?
Don't get me wrong - I'm not a fan of the idea of purple and I try to be one of the first to scoff at the people who crop up with each new set to propose it. But having Ancient Ziggurat tap for R or P makes more sense than having it tap for R or 1. Having a sixth basic land which counts only for domain and adds nothing else to the game is, frankly, lame-o, especially if they eventually do add a sixth color and we then get a seventh basic land type which taps for P.
I think we should not ignore the possibility that domain was a central focus of Conflux design, but instead was added to capitalize on the presence of a sixth color. *Azerbaijan dodges tomatoes.
For reference, for those who haven't been through this conversation 1258 times, here is Wizzo's most thorough discussion that I can find of the possibility of a sixth color.
Personally, I suspect that there will be Barry's Land if they bring back domain seriously, but I suspect they'd wait until Scissors to print it, as was suggested in the original article about not putting the card in Invasion.
However, I think by far the most interesting thing this would cause is giving a colorless basic land for EDH decks with an artifact creature as their general. No more digging for a stack of 35-40 non-basics that only tap for colorless.
If they did a 6th color in Conflux, it would have to be a color "inbetween" or "encompassing" the other 5, and therefore NOT equal to the others as they were planning in TSP. It would be placed in the center of the other 5 on a wheel, rather than taking its place in a hexagon. Because said color is a new emergence that none of the shards have ever seen. Basically it would still be filling the role of domain.
Though it seems likely Conflux is 5-colours, I'd guess that the lands are wedge trilands of some sort (possibly taplands). I'd guess 'Conflux' (being the name of the set) would be mythic.
However, this could be the reason why they added the basic land to packs. (/conspiracy theory)
Here's what I think
Ancient Ziggurat: red, white, blue
Reliquary Tower: black, white, green
Unstable Frontier: white, red, black
Exotic Orchard: green, blue, black
Font of Mythos: blue, green, red
Don't get me wrong - I'm not a fan of the idea of purple and I try to be one of the first to scoff at the people who crop up with each new set to propose it. But having Ancient Ziggurat tap for R or P makes more sense than having it tap for R or 1. Having a sixth basic land which counts only for domain and adds nothing else to the game is, frankly, lame-o, especially if they eventually do add a sixth color and we then get a seventh basic land type which taps for P.
I think we should not ignore the possibility that domain was a central focus of Conflux design, but instead was added to capitalize on the presence of a sixth color. *Azerbaijan dodges tomatoes.
For reference, for those who haven't been through this conversation 1258 times, here is Wizzo's most thorough discussion that I can find of the possibility of a sixth color.
If this was future sight I'd say it could tap for purple, but as it's not there's no reason. They won't add a 6th colour, so tapping for purple is the same as tapping for colourless, except for sunburst.
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From this thread, it seems that Worldly Counsel will appear in Conflux. Also on the list is Might of Alara, which might hint at a domain pump spell ala Gaea's Might. If domain is going to be a major mechanic in the rest of Alara, I couldn't help but remember an article I read.
Could one of them be a sixth basic land? Actually, maybe those are the enemy fetchlands? ha. Thoughts?
Since you put in a ?, I'll give an answer, those are all new artifact lands.
...and now that I think about it, those are all the same type of land, ie kinda like Murmuring Bosk is a forest, but they are all of the new type of land.
I should say that I am quite sure Shambling Remains is a Zombie. Or other dead thing. I'm not getting the impression of a land at all.
And with a fifth card gone, the cycle theory falls apart (although I found a card myself which I'd put as a land, let me see here...)
EDIT: Font of Mythos could be a land, but I think it's an artifact.
Yeah, I mean, even I can think one reason (and plan) for how they might be able to-
Wait a minute. Dr. Jeebus said that?
. . . what th-
but h-
. . . WHAT SENSE MAKE YOU?!?
Dr. Jeebus, the argument I'm having with you in another thread makes absolutely no sense if you're also one of those who denies a sixth colour. What is that about?? Explain to me!!
Maro's made it pretty clear that he desperately wanted to make a 6th colour on several occasions, most recently future sight, and that they just couldn't make it work for a number of reasons. They've attempted it in R&D a couple times, the second time with the head designer really pushing it, and they couldn't make it happen. That's enough evidence to me to point to the fact that if they ever add a 6th colour, it will be out of desperation.
Then again, I'm pretty sure there was also a poll on the site asking if we'd want change to the game gradually or all at once, so since they added mythics, put basic land in booster packs, and made sets smaller, maybe they're doing this too. I think it's really damn unlikely though.
Horeshoe: what are you talking about?
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Since you put in a ?, I'll give an answer, those are all new artifact lands.
...and now that I think about it, those are all the same type of land, ie kinda like Murmuring Bosk is a forest, but they are all of the new type of land.
I'm gonna go with no. I'm more willing to believe a 6th color than more artifact lands. The artifact lands were a huge probelm in Mirrodin and are almost certain not to be back.
Since you put in a ?, I'll give an answer, those are all new artifact lands.
...and now that I think about it, those are all the same type of land, ie kinda like Murmuring Bosk is a forest, but they are all of the new type of land.
They may have basic land types, that's actually not a bad bit of speculation, but they will *not* do more artifact lands for long, long time.
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It never made it into Invasion like it was supposed to (to support the Domain theme they had going).
Conflux could be an example, but it sounds more like a sorcery or instant than a land.
'buster
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If there are no dual lands printed with the new basic land type, and Conflux is the only Basic Land-Conflux, then confusing reminder text is not an issue. The only concern they'd have then is spells which change lands into basic lands, and even then they could make rules changes or errata which render that a non-issue (just like your Coalition Victory example.)
No, none of those things are required to be true by the Comprehensive Rules. They are "necessarily" true because the definition of basic land types affects every format and every card that can grant basic land types, so any new basic land must be simple enough to remember with 100% accuracy without a card reference handy.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
It would be good for Domain spells. And it would pave the way for another mechanic - colorless cards/costs that can only be paid with colorless mana (which I think is the mechanic they tried in Mirrodin and later discarded).
I can. It could easily be without rules baggage altogether. Conflux (which I still maintain doesn't sound like a land, but whatever. There have been stupider names) would have the ability (because all lands produce mana) but it wouldn't need to be tied to the land type. This would be fine:
Conflux
Basic Land - Conflux
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
Maybe with reminder text saying that it's a basic land type, but that's not necessary.
I see no particular reason why the land type should include this rules baggage. Surely all lands upon which it appears will already produce mana, so what's the point of adding a redundant ability?
uh oh, i think that Coalition Victory just got timeshifted though.
But i want the 6th basic land idea to pan out, so that i can dig out my domain deck again!
Water, as far as it concerns Basic Lands, is usually related to U (even the symbol is a waterdrop). But the word island itself implies that there are other elements/minerals present, there's not only water, but also land. A lake can't be an Island, a sea can't be an Island; most water bodies can't be islands. Now, Conflux suggests water also, but a coming together or rivers (etymology: prefix con-=together+flux=constant/temporary fluid movement). And here's the obvious thing: water is... (drums) COLORLESS!!!
(also odorless and tasteless for that matter, but that doesn't matter.)
This, in a way, means that making Conflux the next basic land is actually the most logical path to take and I guess many players (including me, since now I'm hoping for it) will be upset is this doesn't end up being the case.
At first I thought that making a basic land that adds NO color would be strictly worse than the 5 strictly worst cards in the history of Magic. But considering many things, like the novelty of changes done for good in the game (the inclusion of Yu-Gi-Oh! Rares aka Mythic Rares, for example), this is actually possible. (Maybe as possible as Relentless Rats being a "Basic Creature" in 11th, which I wished had been the case back in Xth).
Now, what about 11th? Will Conflux be there? I know MaRo has repeatedly said that there will be many changes in the next core set (probably there'll be even Mythic rares and Planeswalkers, the ones from Lorwyn, reprinted at that rarity in 11th.)
Also, making a basic land that produces coloress mana will be more useful for playing... ehm... artifacts... and a board full of artifacts seems too much like... Esper. Again, here we come with the preference for U (can't blame them, I also think it's the best color), and we've all been noticing how WotC has been trying over the years to shift the "favorite kid" status from blue to green. This makes a colorless mana-producing basic land less likely, but, who knows? I even thought of Conflux producing one and a half colorless mana, seeing that many Un-things in Magic are nowadays normal:D. (A man can dream, can't he?)
I like 4/4s for 7.
Throughout this thread is the assumption, explicitly stated or implied, that a new basic land type will have rules baggage. It was this I was disagreeing with. I didn't mean to single out your post, I was just using it to segue into this point that everyone is overlooking. You and I were talking about different things. You were talking about what the land would do, but I was talking about what the land type would do. The disagreement was to the belief that these would be the same thing.
QFT. Also, if the make the 6th basic land anything more complicated than "t: Add 1 to your mana pool", it closes doors. The 5 "dual lands" using conflux and each basic land tap I still think are a good idea, especially with Firespout seeing so much play, and you couldn't do something like that if there are multiple abilities included on Conflux. I know whenever people start talking about designing a card everyone wants to one up each other with their awesome design skills, but it's a basic land. Sometimes things need to be simple.
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My guess it will be it's own land type, because being all land types without typing for mana is convoluted and doesn't make sense with current inheritage clauses.
Here's hoping for Conflux in....Conflux!
Flavorwise, such a result would also be odd. "Conflux" means a "place of junction", or where things come together. That sounds like something that can produce multiple colors of mana, not something that can produce only colorless. Why would they pick the name "Conflux" for such a land?
It may seem anticlimactic, but it opens a LOT of doors, design wise, in terms of making that land type more relevant. There are a ton of non-basic land that tap for a colourless mana and then have another ability (Library of Alexandria, Academy Ruins, etc.) Now imagine that future lands designed in such a way have the ability to have a basic land type tacked on to them, as well as cards that make that basic land type relevant (either via domain effects, or fetching). If you make the basic land do anything besides just tap for colourless, it closes off a lot of design space.
Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded.
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If Nichol Bolas was the one who split Alara into its shards, wouldn't it make sense that one of the reasons for bringing them together would be to gain something? He gained something by splitting them, now he would gain something else: a new, stable source of mana to draw from; thus, a sixth basic land. So, the first planeswalker ever would increase his power even more, perhaps to make up for the fact that after the events of Time Spiral, he's mortal again. This is one of the interesting ways you could make it work from a flavor perspective.
I hope that came out the way I wanted it to.
Standard: UG Delver
Extended: U Grand Architect
Modern: RUG Tempo
Legacy: UBG Dredge
Commander: UG Eldric, Spymaster of Trest
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
Don't get me wrong - I'm not a fan of the idea of purple and I try to be one of the first to scoff at the people who crop up with each new set to propose it. But having Ancient Ziggurat tap for R or P makes more sense than having it tap for R or 1. Having a sixth basic land which counts only for domain and adds nothing else to the game is, frankly, lame-o, especially if they eventually do add a sixth color and we then get a seventh basic land type which taps for P.
I think we should not ignore the possibility that domain was a central focus of Conflux design, but instead was added to capitalize on the presence of a sixth color. *Azerbaijan dodges tomatoes.
For reference, for those who haven't been through this conversation 1258 times, here is Wizzo's most thorough discussion that I can find of the possibility of a sixth color.
However, I think by far the most interesting thing this would cause is giving a colorless basic land for EDH decks with an artifact creature as their general. No more digging for a stack of 35-40 non-basics that only tap for colorless.
Here's what I think
Ancient Ziggurat: red, white, blue
Reliquary Tower: black, white, green
Unstable Frontier: white, red, black
Exotic Orchard: green, blue, black
Font of Mythos: blue, green, red
If this was future sight I'd say it could tap for purple, but as it's not there's no reason. They won't add a 6th colour, so tapping for purple is the same as tapping for colourless, except for sunburst.
Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded.
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Since you put in a ?, I'll give an answer, those are all new artifact lands.
...and now that I think about it, those are all the same type of land, ie kinda like Murmuring Bosk is a forest, but they are all of the new type of land.
And with a fifth card gone, the cycle theory falls apart (although I found a card myself which I'd put as a land, let me see here...)
EDIT: Font of Mythos could be a land, but I think it's an artifact.
Yeah, I mean, even I can think one reason (and plan) for how they might be able to-
Wait a minute. Dr. Jeebus said that?
. . . what th-
but h-
. . . WHAT SENSE MAKE YOU?!?
Dr. Jeebus, the argument I'm having with you in another thread makes absolutely no sense if you're also one of those who denies a sixth colour. What is that about?? Explain to me!!
(please)
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Maro's made it pretty clear that he desperately wanted to make a 6th colour on several occasions, most recently future sight, and that they just couldn't make it work for a number of reasons. They've attempted it in R&D a couple times, the second time with the head designer really pushing it, and they couldn't make it happen. That's enough evidence to me to point to the fact that if they ever add a 6th colour, it will be out of desperation.
Then again, I'm pretty sure there was also a poll on the site asking if we'd want change to the game gradually or all at once, so since they added mythics, put basic land in booster packs, and made sets smaller, maybe they're doing this too. I think it's really damn unlikely though.
Horeshoe: what are you talking about?
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I'm gonna go with no. I'm more willing to believe a 6th color than more artifact lands. The artifact lands were a huge probelm in Mirrodin and are almost certain not to be back.
They may have basic land types, that's actually not a bad bit of speculation, but they will *not* do more artifact lands for long, long time.