when will wizards start making cards like older cards and simply add a cantrip effect to them and bump up the rarity?
Super Mind Stone 2 Artifact
Rare
When Super Mind Stone comes into play, draw a card.
T Add 1 to your mana pool. 1, T, Sacrifice Super Mind Stone: Draw a card.
Or how about?
Viridian Super Shaman 2G Creature - Elf Shaman Warrior
Rare
When Viridian Super Shaman comes into play, destroy target artifact. When Viridian Super Suman comes into play, draw a card.
2/2
because that takes a great card and makes it broken
well how is it "broken"? i am just thinking with the current power creep making good cards cantrip and then just upping the rarity makes things interesting.
They don't really like to obsolete things. Sure, there's some power creep, but power level ebbs back and forth, some sets are more powerful than others.
Personally, I would hate these at rare. But i'd be really annoyed to crack these in packs. These are utility cards, which I really don't think should be printed at rare.
Sure, they're good, but increasing power level doesn't necessarily mean you should increase the rarity. The biggest reasons cards are rare are cool factor, complexity, and effect on limited. These cards are not that awesome, they are not particularly complex, and aren't limited bombs. Sure, i'll play them in limited, but i'm not going to first pick them every time.
You can't just add "Draw a card" to something without changing the mana cost, especially when something is already appropriately costed. These are cards that ALREADY see play, they're already appropriately costed. Adding "Draw a card" to them makes them excessive. It turns Viridian Shaman into a potential 3-for-1. (Destroy artifact, draw card, trade with creature)
Super mindstone should be tested at 3 at the very least, it's certainly too good at 2. Super viridian shaman needs to cost at least 4, probably even more.
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well how is it "broken"? i am just thinking with the current power creep making good cards cantrip and then just upping the rarity makes things interesting.
I think every deck would run 4 of those "super mind stones" and it would be worth more than a goyf.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Rarity does not compensate for power. Mindstone and Viridian Shaman are both pretty much balanced. Adding a cantip makes them overpowered, or at least annoyingly good.
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"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master." - Commissioner Pravin Lal, Datalinks
Rarity does not compensate for power. Mindstone and Viridian Shaman are both pretty much balanced. Adding a cantip makes them overpowered, or at least annoyingly good.
does it really make the card that over-powered is what i am asking? but i can very well see wizards just adding cantrips to cards to make a lot of "bad" or fair cards playable.
take for instance giant spider. the card is a solid 4 drop with a nice ability. in limited, this guy is a solid pick; however, in constructed it is over-looked. would wizards ever just add the cantrip ability to that card and move it up one rarity slot to an uncommon?
like some cards i could see this as being deemed "over-powered". giant growth or shock with this ability seems almost too good to be true.
Super Mind Stone 2 Artifact
Rare
When Super Mind Stone comes into play, draw a card.
T Add 1 to your mana pool. 1, T, Sacrifice Super Mind Stone: Draw a card.
The reason why this is overpowered, is that it is strictly better then a 3 casting cost sorcery, that can be played in all colors, to draw 2 cards.
does it really make the card that over-powered is what i am asking? but i can very well see wizards just adding cantrips to cards to make a lot of "bad" or fair cards playable.
take for instance giant spider. the card is a solid 4 drop with a nice ability. in limited, this guy is a solid pick; however, in constructed it is over-looked. would wizards ever just add the cantrip ability to that card and move it up one rarity slot to an uncommon?
like some cards i could see this as being deemed "over-powered". giant growth or shock with this ability seems almost too good to be true.
Not every card will be constructed worthy. There are just too many cards for that to be true. Having a card that's only usable in limited is fine.
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"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master." - Commissioner Pravin Lal, Datalinks
i am not saying the card isn't powerful. is it broken? no i wouldnt go that far. it is definitely very playable in every deck.
When something is "very playable in every deck," I think i'd go so far as to call that broken. Super Mindstone could theoretically be played in pretty much EVERY deck. Aggro is a little less likely, but still possbile (most likely in block, i doubt it would get further than that). Control decks would LOVE this card, and probably play 4 as long as they weren't in more than two or three colors. Even then, it might be worth it. It could give combo decks even more acceleration. Ravager gets more draw and mana. (It's a two mana artifact land that cantrips!) This is simply ridiculous.
Things are cheaper because they cost a card to use.
There's a reason why it costs mana to add a card to something.
Elvish Visionary? Add a mana and take away the ability to tap for mana to get a card. counsel of the soratami? Add two mana, and take away scry or something small to draw an extra card.
Drawing a card in addition to a useful effect is HUGE, and can't just be added for now cost whatsoever.
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When something is "very playable in every deck," I think i'd go so far as to call that broken. Super Mindstone could theoretically be played in pretty much EVERY deck. Aggro is a little less likely, but still possbile (most likely in block, i doubt it would get further than that). Control decks would LOVE this card, and probably play 4 as long as they weren't in more than two or three colors. Even then, it might be worth it. It could give combo decks even more acceleration. Ravager gets more draw and mana. (It's a two mana artifact land that cantrips!) This is simply ridiculous.
Things are cheaper because they cost a card to use.
There's a reason why it costs mana to add a card to something.
Elvish Visionary? Add a mana and take away the ability to tap for mana to get a card. counsel of the soratami? Add two mana, and take away scry or something small to draw an extra card.
Drawing a card in addition to a useful effect is HUGE, and can't just be added for now cost whatsoever.
It's far more abusable than mutavault is, so probably, yeah. Mutavault has the whole Land restriction on it, this doesn't. Plus, drawing cards (for free, no less) is a bit more dangerous than paying mana to turn a land into a creature.
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It's far more abusable than mutavault is, so probably, yeah. Mutavault has the whole Land restriction on it, this doesn't. Plus, drawing cards (for free, no less) is a bit more dangerous than paying mana to turn a land into a creature.
this was the same argument they made about mutavault back in the day. ie it will never lose value. it is splashable in every deck etc, etc, etc.
i dont see cantrips on decent cards as being broke by any means. maybe it is because i like the idea of drawing cards. like underworld dreams should have the clause when this card comes into play draw a card. if it had that clause in it would it make the card "broken"?
There is no consistent power creep. Power creep comes and goes. In Shards, for example, the power creep has scaled back considerably. Where else would a UUBBBRR sorcery see play?
i dont see cantrips on decent cards as being broke by any means. maybe it is because i like the idea of drawing cards. like underworld dreams should have the clause when this card comes into play draw a card. if it had that clause in it would it make the card "broken"?
Underworld Dreams isn't in the same class as Mind Stone and Viridian Shaman. I'm still not sure I'd play it if it cantripped (And that would be really weird if it did, something random that would just clutter up the card).
Now, if every freaking card they printed cantripped, the game would be very different, and Underworld Dreams might actually become something playable.
But that's not the point. The point is you can't just add "Draw a card" to everything. First of all, it clutters up the card. "Draw a card" works best and cleanest as an additional part of a sorcery or instant, adding it as a comes into play effect on top of something else is really weird.
Secondly, it makes it way more powerful. Would anyone play remand if it didn't say "Draw a card" on it? How much better would remand be if it said "Draw two cards?" Remand would be ridiculous. Remand is already very strong, adding another card draw to it turns it into pretty much the be-all end-all of soft permission.
Mana artifacts for control decks create at least some weakness because they're investing a card in those resources, not just time. If you ancient grudge their mind stone or signet, they may be out a card, as well as a bit of time. But you also spent the time to take care of it, as well as a card. If they're not even spending a card on it and you still ancient grudge the thing, you're falling behind.
Adding cantrips to everything makes removal weaker, because they're basically getting a 2-for-1 for every removal spell you play (unless of course your removal is ALSO a cantrip). But if we add cantrips to everything, then control probably wins out in the end.
Why? Because they counter one of your spells, and draw a card. You don't. They have killed one of your cards for nothing but time and mana on their side, replacing the card in their hand immediately. And every spell they counter is another card they're up on you.
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A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
Underworld Dreams isn't in the same class as Mind Stone and Viridian Shaman. I'm still not sure I'd play it if it cantripped (And that would be really weird if it did, something random that would just clutter up the card).
Now, if every freaking card they printed cantripped, the game would be very different, and Underworld Dreams might actually become something playable.
But that's not the point. The point is you can't just add "Draw a card" to everything. First of all, it clutters up the card. "Draw a card" works best and cleanest as an additional part of a sorcery or instant, adding it as a comes into play effect on top of something else is really weird.
Secondly, it makes it way more powerful. Would anyone play remand if it didn't say "Draw a card" on it? How much better would remand be if it said "Draw two cards?" Remand would be ridiculous. Remand is already very strong, adding another card draw to it turns it into pretty much the be-all end-all of soft permission.
Mana artifacts for control decks create at least some weakness because they're investing a card in those resources, not just time. If you ancient grudge their mind stone or signet, they may be out a card, as well as a bit of time. But you also spent the time to take care of it, as well as a card. If they're not even spending a card on it and you still ancient grudge the thing, you're falling behind.
Adding cantrips to everything makes removal weaker, because they're basically getting a 2-for-1 for every removal spell you play (unless of course your removal is ALSO a cantrip). But if we add cantrips to everything, then control probably wins out in the end.
Why? Because they counter one of your spells, and draw a card. You don't. They have killed one of your cards for nothing but time and mana on their side, replacing the card in their hand immediately. And every spell they counter is another card they're up on you.
i completely understand what you are talking about. it is at the very least a replacement effect. but when you are suggesting the card is "broken" what power level are you thinking that card is on?
yawgmoth's will?
power nine?
academy?
balance?
demonic tutor?
dark ritual?
mana drain?
rancor?
i see the card being slightly better than remand... or here's another way to look at it since it is a control card.
which of these cards is that card better than?
fact or fiction?
gifts ungiven?
cryptic command?
ancestral visions?
Each of those cards you name will lead to more massive card advantage, sure. They are more powerful cards. But they also cost more mana (or time, in the case of visions).
The big deal with your Super Mindstone is you're paying two mana for an effect that should be far more than two mana. Whereas those other cards you mentioned have color restrictions, this one does not. It accelerates and immediately replaces itself. It also can draw an ADDITIONAL card for just one more mana.
Those other cards are more backbreaking in that they create more card advantage and/or better game position. But your card is one of (if not THE) best turn two a control deck could have.
Typically, a control deck would love to cast remand on turn two, slowing the opponent with only time as a real cost, but stealing just as much time from the opponent. So no real loss at all.
If the control deck plays turn 2 mind stone, and the aggro deck plays turn two shatter, both decks have spent a turn and a card. Makes things even. This is how it had been, and how it pretty much should be.
Your card pushes this even further into the control deck's advantage. You play turn two S.M.S, draw a card. Aggro deck plays shatter, you lose your SMS. You're still up a card, and you've both spent equal time. (Basically another advantage for the control deck, they play for the long game.)
This card becomes even more ridiculous in the late game. You pay two mana to play it, and draw a card. Then, for a third mana, you can sacrifice it to draw a card. You just cast counsel of the soratami for 3. Blue is supposed to get good card draw. The other colors? Not so much, not without drawbacks. (Sure, there's stuff like Harmonize, but let's ignore planar chaos) Admittedly, counsel of the soratami isn't real strong card draw, but it's not horrid. And being able to split it up over time is even stronger, especially when you can take advantage of the acceleration until you don't need it any more.
I know you're looking to push the power envelope, and I think that's the problem. Just because you're "upping the rarity" doesn't mean you can throw the standards away. We have good cards at these costs, and you want to obsolete them by adding "Draw a card" to them. People are telling you it's not good for the game, it's far too much.
Tell you what: try playing an extended aggro deck and control deck against each other a few times. But assume that when every spell resolves, its controller draws a card. See who wins. (Make sure you're running 4 of your super mindstone in the control deck. It is that good.)
The aggro deck will draw more fuel than usual, sure, but the control deck is NEVER GOING TO RUN OUT OF CARDS.
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A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
are you suggesting that wizards should infact make yawgmoth's will cantrip? there would not be a rarity to justify that insane power level. you cant just go and cantrip already good cards and hope to get away with it without changing the mana cost, because drawing a card is just that powerful an effect, it needs justification to put it on.
how about making counterspell cantrip for UU, it would be nuts, even for 1UU it would still be nuts
Super Mind Stone 2 Artifact
Rare
When Super Mind Stone comes into play, draw a card.
T Add 1 to your mana pool. 1, T, Sacrifice Super Mind Stone: Draw a card.
Or how about?
Viridian Super Shaman 2G Creature - Elf Shaman Warrior
Rare
When Viridian Super Shaman comes into play, destroy target artifact. When Viridian Super Suman comes into play, draw a card.
2/2
well how is it "broken"? i am just thinking with the current power creep making good cards cantrip and then just upping the rarity makes things interesting.
Personally, I would hate these at rare. But i'd be really annoyed to crack these in packs. These are utility cards, which I really don't think should be printed at rare.
Sure, they're good, but increasing power level doesn't necessarily mean you should increase the rarity. The biggest reasons cards are rare are cool factor, complexity, and effect on limited. These cards are not that awesome, they are not particularly complex, and aren't limited bombs. Sure, i'll play them in limited, but i'm not going to first pick them every time.
You can't just add "Draw a card" to something without changing the mana cost, especially when something is already appropriately costed. These are cards that ALREADY see play, they're already appropriately costed. Adding "Draw a card" to them makes them excessive. It turns Viridian Shaman into a potential 3-for-1. (Destroy artifact, draw card, trade with creature)
Super mindstone should be tested at 3 at the very least, it's certainly too good at 2. Super viridian shaman needs to cost at least 4, probably even more.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
I think every deck would run 4 of those "super mind stones" and it would be worth more than a goyf.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
I mean no offense, but damn...what are you thinking?
does it really make the card that over-powered is what i am asking? but i can very well see wizards just adding cantrips to cards to make a lot of "bad" or fair cards playable.
take for instance giant spider. the card is a solid 4 drop with a nice ability. in limited, this guy is a solid pick; however, in constructed it is over-looked. would wizards ever just add the cantrip ability to that card and move it up one rarity slot to an uncommon?
like some cards i could see this as being deemed "over-powered". giant growth or shock with this ability seems almost too good to be true.
Counsel of the Soratami in all color and non color combinations.
This does not even begin to address the issue that it can stay around and tap for mana.
i am not saying the card isn't powerful. is it broken? no i wouldnt go that far. it is definitely very playable in every deck.
Not every card will be constructed worthy. There are just too many cards for that to be true. Having a card that's only usable in limited is fine.
When something is "very playable in every deck," I think i'd go so far as to call that broken. Super Mindstone could theoretically be played in pretty much EVERY deck. Aggro is a little less likely, but still possbile (most likely in block, i doubt it would get further than that). Control decks would LOVE this card, and probably play 4 as long as they weren't in more than two or three colors. Even then, it might be worth it. It could give combo decks even more acceleration. Ravager gets more draw and mana. (It's a two mana artifact land that cantrips!) This is simply ridiculous.
Things are cheaper because they cost a card to use.
There's a reason why it costs mana to add a card to something.
Elvish Visionary? Add a mana and take away the ability to tap for mana to get a card.
counsel of the soratami? Add two mana, and take away scry or something small to draw an extra card.
Drawing a card in addition to a useful effect is HUGE, and can't just be added for now cost whatsoever.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
but would this card be better than mutavault?
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
this was the same argument they made about mutavault back in the day. ie it will never lose value. it is splashable in every deck etc, etc, etc.
i dont see cantrips on decent cards as being broke by any means. maybe it is because i like the idea of drawing cards. like underworld dreams should have the clause when this card comes into play draw a card. if it had that clause in it would it make the card "broken"?
10x more broken!? so are you suggesting this would be a $500 card? (ie mutavault at its peak was nearing $50)
seriously would this card ever hit $50-70 range if it was printed as a rare?
Easily. Every control deck in Extended, Standard, and Block would use it.
Agreed... Just like on TXG quite trolling TD.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
Underworld Dreams isn't in the same class as Mind Stone and Viridian Shaman. I'm still not sure I'd play it if it cantripped (And that would be really weird if it did, something random that would just clutter up the card).
Now, if every freaking card they printed cantripped, the game would be very different, and Underworld Dreams might actually become something playable.
But that's not the point. The point is you can't just add "Draw a card" to everything. First of all, it clutters up the card. "Draw a card" works best and cleanest as an additional part of a sorcery or instant, adding it as a comes into play effect on top of something else is really weird.
Secondly, it makes it way more powerful. Would anyone play remand if it didn't say "Draw a card" on it? How much better would remand be if it said "Draw two cards?" Remand would be ridiculous. Remand is already very strong, adding another card draw to it turns it into pretty much the be-all end-all of soft permission.
Mana artifacts for control decks create at least some weakness because they're investing a card in those resources, not just time. If you ancient grudge their mind stone or signet, they may be out a card, as well as a bit of time. But you also spent the time to take care of it, as well as a card. If they're not even spending a card on it and you still ancient grudge the thing, you're falling behind.
Adding cantrips to everything makes removal weaker, because they're basically getting a 2-for-1 for every removal spell you play (unless of course your removal is ALSO a cantrip). But if we add cantrips to everything, then control probably wins out in the end.
Why? Because they counter one of your spells, and draw a card. You don't. They have killed one of your cards for nothing but time and mana on their side, replacing the card in their hand immediately. And every spell they counter is another card they're up on you.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
i completely understand what you are talking about. it is at the very least a replacement effect. but when you are suggesting the card is "broken" what power level are you thinking that card is on?
yawgmoth's will?
power nine?
academy?
balance?
demonic tutor?
dark ritual?
mana drain?
rancor?
i see the card being slightly better than remand... or here's another way to look at it since it is a control card.
which of these cards is that card better than?
fact or fiction?
gifts ungiven?
cryptic command?
ancestral visions?
The big deal with your Super Mindstone is you're paying two mana for an effect that should be far more than two mana. Whereas those other cards you mentioned have color restrictions, this one does not. It accelerates and immediately replaces itself. It also can draw an ADDITIONAL card for just one more mana.
Those other cards are more backbreaking in that they create more card advantage and/or better game position. But your card is one of (if not THE) best turn two a control deck could have.
Typically, a control deck would love to cast remand on turn two, slowing the opponent with only time as a real cost, but stealing just as much time from the opponent. So no real loss at all.
If the control deck plays turn 2 mind stone, and the aggro deck plays turn two shatter, both decks have spent a turn and a card. Makes things even. This is how it had been, and how it pretty much should be.
Your card pushes this even further into the control deck's advantage. You play turn two S.M.S, draw a card. Aggro deck plays shatter, you lose your SMS. You're still up a card, and you've both spent equal time. (Basically another advantage for the control deck, they play for the long game.)
This card becomes even more ridiculous in the late game. You pay two mana to play it, and draw a card. Then, for a third mana, you can sacrifice it to draw a card. You just cast counsel of the soratami for 3. Blue is supposed to get good card draw. The other colors? Not so much, not without drawbacks. (Sure, there's stuff like Harmonize, but let's ignore planar chaos) Admittedly, counsel of the soratami isn't real strong card draw, but it's not horrid. And being able to split it up over time is even stronger, especially when you can take advantage of the acceleration until you don't need it any more.
I know you're looking to push the power envelope, and I think that's the problem. Just because you're "upping the rarity" doesn't mean you can throw the standards away. We have good cards at these costs, and you want to obsolete them by adding "Draw a card" to them. People are telling you it's not good for the game, it's far too much.
Tell you what: try playing an extended aggro deck and control deck against each other a few times. But assume that when every spell resolves, its controller draws a card. See who wins. (Make sure you're running 4 of your super mindstone in the control deck. It is that good.)
The aggro deck will draw more fuel than usual, sure, but the control deck is NEVER GOING TO RUN OUT OF CARDS.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
how about making counterspell cantrip for UU, it would be nuts, even for 1UU it would still be nuts