Think this is why you have been clashing with so many people. This base assumption is different for them.
I would rather win with my original deck, than lose.
Then I feel sorry for them. Because I think they're playing for the wrong reason. Yeah, I like to win, no argument. But is it worth $200 to me just to get a all dual mana base? Not unless I'm making that money back. Which I'm not.
If you want to complain about the price of duals, then play mono-coloured decks. If you have a playgroup, then get the group together to decide how much you're willing to invest in the most ideal lands for multicolour decks.
I do dislike that they're so expensice, but that's not my beef with them. And I DO play mono. I've played mono of every color except blue, and every dual-color combo that dosent include blue(see a pattern here?) and even 5 color(though this includes blue). I dislike the dual lands because it strips an integral part of the challenge of playing MTG from the game.
"The difference between MTG and science is that one has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while the other has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while playing cards."
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Think this is why you have been clashing with so many people. This base assumption is different for them.
I would rather win with my original deck, than lose.
Okay, so I'm somewhat confused here. Are you saying that some people don't have the choice of winning/losing with an original deck? Or that they're forced to use shocklands because they can't figure out how to do their mana?
Also, you do realize that if shocklands don't see reprint:
- In Standard Magic, players who don't want to pay tons of money for duals won't need to do so, and can still have decks that have mana as good as anyone else's*. (*Excluding other expensive lands; I think Scrying Sheets is still a bit pricy, but I don't recall.)
- In other formats (and casual), the price of shocklands will probably go down, since people who play formats other than Standard will try to offload all of their duals to buy the newer cards. (Actually, I'm not sure if Vintage/Legacy will be sucking up all of these extra cards and create a constant demand for dwindling supply, but let's ignore this.)
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Okay, so I'm somewhat confused here. Are you saying that some people don't have the choice of winning/losing with an original deck? Or that they're forced to use shocklands because they can't figure out how to do their mana?
Sorry.... What i was saying was that some people would rather not "lose with my original deck, played my way," They would rather "win with a $200 mana base." (which most people do not really spend $200, and if they did they should not have HAD too, which is the point of this thread, people should not win because they have $200 to spend on magic cards, they should win because they are good players. If two people of the same level one should not win because they have $200, while the other did not) Well $200 or the ability to rip kids off.
I like making my own decks, I hate net decking, but if my deck does not win then I feel I failed. I design my decks to win. Before I go to states I test my deck, and if they lose in testing, I make a new deck. To me if a deck does not do what it is designed to do, which is beat my opponent, then I have failed as a deck designer.
To win a tournament i need the best deck i can make. (ok technik4 I used NEED the way you keep thinking i did, so go for it) Whether that tournament be states or FNM, I am trying to prove:
(my deck design)+(my play skill)>(net deckers)+(non-netdeckers)
The only way I know how to do that is to win, and to win my deck MUST be the best I can make it. I do not want to get to the semifinals of states/FNM and run into the time where I would not have have to mulligan if I had duals, because now I have just lost the tournament and proved
(my deck design)+(my play skill)<(net deckers)+(non-netdeckers)
Which is not the relation i was going for. But thats just why/how I play magic.
All in all, it might be a good idea. in a base set, printing all 10 would probably not be a good idea.
Say they printed 5 at uncommon. This would probably make it about 4x
more likely to open them in a pack of whateverth than Ravnica. They would still be a money card, too, you'd be more likely to get them, but it is actually hard to get the uncommons you want in base set packs.
To win a tournament i need the best deck i can make.
Thanks. Then you need to be willing to spend money on the deck. Its simple economics. Other people out there, the ones you're playing, they also feel like they need their deck to be the best. Since many people want the same card, it makes it valuable.
You're clearly a spike. You play magic because you want to win, but you are also a johnny because you like to bring your own creation to win.
Let me boil this down to:
Ravnica, Guildpact, and Dissension would NOT have sold as well as they did if shocklands were uncommon. Wizards is not a heartless company just seeking to take your money, but they do have to stay in business and they did provide ample mana-fixing at other rarities (bounce lands, signets, elves, farseek, etc etc).
Between Painlands, Coldsnap lands, signets, bounce lands, and Gemstone Mine you can fix a deck without shocks and I bet your win % would not significantly drop. You might have to mulligan more often, and you lose a little tempo, but most non-all out aggro decks can afford to do that.
Blue/white/green agro control
I don't know what deck you're talking about. 3-color aggro control? What cards do you play. Decklist please.
White/black Rock (w/g/b)
The Rock is G/B. Please post a decklist that plays better because you added white.
Any 3 color control deck, any 3 color combo deck (my buddy loves making those)
3-color control? What like Roxodon Hierarchy? 3-color combo? Huh? The combo decks around are all red-based (Dragonstorm, Empty the Warrens, and Ignite Memories). I think there's an Enduring Renewal deck, but its only 2 colors. Post me decklists from you and your friend that would be significantly worse without shocklands. Since Planar Chaos, most of them could probably be pared down to 2-colors.
On a sidenote, some Spike/Johnnies like the challenge of fighting players with higher budgets. JMS, Chris Romeo (to an extent, he finally caved and now adds shocks to all his decklists), and a host of other players play FNM and even high-level tournaments (look at some of Tyoshi Fujita's decks) with decks built on a budget. The fun becomes beating people that just netdeck by out-metagaming and out-playing them. The danger becomes you not being able to make a deck that can stand up to the netdecks (which you can always cite budget reasons for) so you cave and spend more money to 'compete'.
Lets print Lotus, Necropotence, and Yawgmoth's Will at common too. I'm sick and tired of losing to people who can pay money for good cards.
I hate that too. I am no fan of games which are pretty much 'biggest budget wins'. I much rather it when you can just rely on skill and know it was completely your fault you lost and not whoever it is that pays you. Can someone donate me 4 of each of those cards mentioned above?:D
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With all, put the same thing except with / in front of what type of tags they are (like [/card]) to close them.
Card: [card]
Hybrid: :symub: = order doesn't matter
Thanks. Then you need to be willing to spend money on the deck. Its simple economics. Other people out there, the ones you're playing, they also feel like they need their deck to be the best. Since many people want the same card, it makes it valuable.
Yes, I have the best cards (as i said in my post) I do not run a deck unless its the best it can be. But the point that i am trying to make with this thread (and you have made me get sooo far from it :'( ) Is that cards, like duals, should not the the hard to get cards. cards like damnation should be. Mana fixing lands should not be rare.
You're clearly a spike. You play magic because you want to win, but you are also a johnny because you like to bring your own creation to win.
Sigh... no... if you must know. I am a Spike/timmy. I play control because control is the only kinda deck where i can consistently get cards like Akroma into play. I do not care how long I have to wait. (Tho my current mono green has enough timmy cards to keep me happy) I just happen to not like net decking.
Ravnica, Guildpact, and Dissension would NOT have sold as well as they did if shocklands were uncommon. Wizards is not a heartless company just seeking to take your money, but they do have to stay in business and they did provide ample mana-fixing at other rarities (bounce lands, signets, elves, farseek, etc etc).
And now they need to sell core set, they already sold about as much of these as they will. How could they get people to buy core set? hmmm.....
Between Painlands, Coldsnap lands, signets, bounce lands, and Gemstone Mine you can fix a deck without shocks and I bet your win % would not significantly drop. You might have to mulligan more often, and you lose a little tempo, but most non-all out aggro decks can afford to do that.
I will take that beat!(especially since the decks my buddies play pretty much run on cards like wood elves and Yavimaya dryad for their mana fixing.) You even have had to mulligan at top 8 in states? I have.... not something i like having to do if i can avoid it. (since i lost that game and it was control on control so i did not get to play another.. silly NH timed top 8.... got 5th... sigh)
I don't know what deck you're talking about. 3-color aggro control? What cards do you play. Decklist please.
The Rock is G/B. Please post a decklist that plays better because you added white.
NO
I am NOT going to post the deck lists my buddies made. They worked ridiculously hard on their non-net decks. I am not going to post them here. If you cannot figure out how a white rock or a w/G/u aggro control deck would be build, well i am inclined to think YOU are a net decker, and are just looking for more decks... in your net!
3-color control? What like Roxodon Hierarchy? 3-color combo? Huh? The combo decks around are all red-based (Dragonstorm, Empty the Warrens, and Ignite Memories). I think there's an Enduring Renewal deck, but its only 2 colors. Post me decklists from you and your friend that would be significantly worse without shocklands. Since Planar Chaos, most of them could probably be pared down to 2-colors.
Post a deck list? Whats with you and wanting to see deck lists? You know a torment level deck just by the list? Because i know i need to see a deck played first, sir! Well luckly for you this deck is on the net already. Go look on starcitygames, its called "Project X."
There you gosh darn net decker, go net that deck.(tho if you really are a net decker i do not think you will figure out how that one works)That's right the combo player in my group netdecks.
You are complaining that your friends can't netdeck Project X because shocklands aren't uncommon? Lend your friends your shocks.
You are complaining that your friends can't make 'original' decks like a standard rock deck with white added or 3-color combo decks (that you aren't willing to 'reveal' the combo) because they can't afford dual lands. Tell them to stick to 2 colors. Splash a third if necessary. After planar chaos many colors got bleeds into abilities they havent had - green card draw, white burn, blue discard, etc.
You think that people being 'forced' to 'only' play 2 colors is unfair. Life is unfair and the best mana-fixing is likely to be rare in the forseeable future (which doesn't mean there won't be good and even very good mana fixing at the lower rarities, which there certainly is and always has been).
You are unwilling to post a list because you don't want to see how unnecessary shocks are in many decks. I'm not trying to downplay their power, but people get it into their heads that they are the cornerstone of a deck, rather than just the mana.
You are complaining that your friends can't netdeck Project X because shocklands aren't uncommon? Lend your friends your shocks.
OK now I KNOW your not reading a word i am saying. I have already said I do(in the first post)... and no, that's not what i am complaining about, i have all the duals i need, my play testing group has all the duals we need... I am saying it would be a good idea to print duals as uncommon so people that are not me and not in my play group can get them easily....sigh, NvM.... look i know anything i say here your going to just misinterpreted...
You are complaining that your friends can't make 'original' decks like a standard rock deck with white added or 3-color combo decks (that you aren't willing to 'reveal' the combo) because they can't afford dual lands. Tell them to stick to 2 colors. Splash a third if necessary. After planar chaos many colors got bleeds into abilities they havent had - green card draw, white burn, blue discard, etc.
No i am saying they already have... I brought up these decks, which are already built and have all the duals they need in them, because you asked me what decks need to have .... sigh, are you even reading your OWN posts?
You think that people being 'forced' to 'only' play 2 colors is unfair. Life is unfair and the best mana-fixing is likely to be rare in the forseeable future (which doesn't mean there won't be good and even very good mana fixing at the lower rarities, which there certainly is and always has been).
Ok, i think this paragraph might NOT be a misinterpretation. Yes i am complaining that people i play at FNM do not have the duals they should have in their decks, because of price.
You are unwilling to post a list because you don't want to see how unnecessary shocks are in many decks. I'm not trying to downplay their power, but people get it into their heads that they are the cornerstone of a deck, rather than just the mana.
No i am unwilling to make my friends non netdecks, netdecks by posting them on the net. Also i am sure they would not want to play test with me if i posted their decks on the web just to make a point to you. I know I would not want to play test with someone that did that.
Again i said two cards their decks where running as mana fixing(yes they also run BoPs), go back and read the two cards, read what they do. Think about what duals are. it should all become clear. But again i fear that might be asking to much of you.
The reason i feel that cards like the dual lands should be uncommon because, unlike other chase rares, if your playing with 2 or more colors in your deck and you want your deck to be competitive you should have them. You can make a b/u deck that should not run damnation, but i do not think you could make one that should not run watery grave(i am sure it could work without it, but would be better with it). whenever i think of a deck that is two or more colors, i know it will need to have the respective duals in it to make it the best it can be, this is not true for any of the other non-mana fixing chase rares one can think of. Which is why the duals are worth so much, and why i think they should be uncommon, in X, or XI. They also make the formate more open for more crazy non net decks to work in.
EDIT: if you have 400 to spend on Dual lands, I can give you my address and you can donate to my college fund isntead, thats just silly, IMO. Sorry.
I work very hard for my money, so I can live in my beautiful 4 bedroom house, and eat where I want to eat and have my Disneyland Passes and all that, and one of my things that I work hard for, are my magic cards.
Besides, since most College degrees go to waste anyways, and a very large portion of college students drop out, I wouldnt want to waste money Im already makeing on something that silly. All that, and I only have a high school degree. Someone is getting ripped off it appears.
Also if you want to play with the Big Boys in magic you need to afforde the big boy toys.
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
why should something as powerfull and collectable be an uncommon, isn't that absured?
[sarcasm]They should ban the current basic lands and than make rare basics with different names.(in all constructed formats, you could still use them in limited)
I mean you CAN make decks without basics right? Its not like you NEED them. [/sarcasm]
I have built a few decks that only run 1-2 basics.
Well, it is undeniable that playing Standard is ******* expensive nowadays, but somehow WOTC has to sell packs - there have to be costly chase rares in order to preserve the "C" (the first one, not the second!) in "CCG". ATM, these chase rares are e.g. the RAV duals. In RAV block, however, there were not that many other really expensive rares (but there were a lot of good ones). It is the combination of RAV and TS block which causes the seemingly absurd price of the format - every deck needs the most solid mana base it can get and it needs the most powerful spells.
While I agree that printing the duals at uncommon (something that Randy Buehler mentioned he would have done/do if it had been/were possible) would make Constructed less restrictive, it a) would upset the players who did invest some €€€/$$$ in shock lands (many did that, I can tell...) and b) it would cause an inflation of color fixing which should be not that common (no pun intended) as each color should preserve its unique feeling.
On a personal note, I have torn feelings about the current Standard format as I do not like this mess of one billion tier two decks. Therefore I try to stick with the archetypes I started playing (e.g. I have playing UR Tron for more than six months) and I can tell you: It does work!
While I own the relevant cards for playing the most standard decks, I simply choose not to, which would also be an adequate recommendation for budget players (no offence, of course).
Which is why the duals are worth so much, and why i think they should be uncommon, in X, or XI. They also make the formate more open for more crazy non net decks to work in.
I dont understand your basic complaint.
You have all the duals, but wish they were uncommons? ...
How would the format be open for more crazy non-net decks? People that really go nuts making non-net decks get the duals in the colors they need. You dont need 40 duals to make a non-net deck. Just trade for the 4 (or 8) you need. When you make a new deck, trade the ones you have for the ones you don't.
Painlands are a cheap alternative that have been available since shocklands came out.
Face reality: Shocklands won't be Uncommon in any core set. And it would probably hurt the game if they printed future 'best' mana-fixing at uncommon (like the enemy fetches being uncommon instead of rare).
Oh and a U/B control deck would work a lot better with Damnation than it would with Watery Grave, assuming you had to choose between the 2. I can't even believe you implied otherwise.
...
And now they need to sell core set, they already sold about as much of [the shocklands] as they will. How could they get people to buy core set? hmmm.....
Minor point - if Wizards reprinted the shocklands as rares, they would probably sell more of tenth edition than if they printed them as uncommons. (People would need to buy more packs.)
For the record, I have a good number of dual lands, not because I spent any money (on any of them!), but because I won drafts, and/or traded with friends who did. It was a fairly easy (and rewarding) way to get them. I know that's somewhat irrelevant now that RGD is a bit passé for drafting, but just a thought. And no, the duals didn't always go to the "shark" uber-players, since we drafted with 6-8 of our friends.
Yes, mana shouldn't be that expensive. But if they'd wanted it to be more available, the would've made them uncommon in the Ravnica block.
And if you are really makign competitive standard decks, I still don't see why you're complaining. In 4-5 months the problem will solve itself when the Ravnica block rotates out. I thought I'd mentioned that before, but perhaps I didn't. Even if they reprint the duals as uncommons, they're going to go for a few bucks a piece, so you'll still need to pay a handful of cash to get complete playsets. Contrast this with them not reprinting them - in Standard you won't have to buy any other lands (other than maybe painlands, or gainlands, or Sheets) to be competitive! If this is a financial concern for Standard decks, this solution should be the most favorable.
One more thing:
People made 2-color decks before Ravnica came out. They even managed to run a few 3+ color decks (with Green being the major color). Without the shocklands around forever, it'll be like old time. Like Mirrodin having rotated out, and no more affinity and zillions of artifacts. People learn how to make their style of deck work in any standard format without the tools they had before.
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URBig Spender (Casual/Multiplayer) - Putting your junky Timmy cards together the way a Johnny should.
I work very hard for my money, so I can live in my beautiful 4 bedroom house, and eat where I want to eat and have my Disneyland Passes and all that, and one of my things that I work hard for, are my magic cards.
Besides, since most College degrees go to waste anyways, and a very large portion of college students drop out, I wouldnt want to waste money Im already makeing on something that silly. All that, and I only have a high school degree. Someone is getting ripped off it appears.
Also if you want to play with the Big Boys in magic you need to afforde the big boy toys.
I wouldnt say that degrees go to waste, more that they arent utilized to their fullest. on topic, i hope we've seen the last of the rav duals for at least a couple of years.
Oh and a U/B control deck would work a lot better with Damnation than it would with Watery Grave, assuming you had to choose between the 2. I can't even believe you implied otherwise.
You're upsetting me.... please read what i am writing.
I did not say anything about a control deck. I am saying that you can make a U/B deck(could be a control, could be agro, could be combo, i do not care) without needing a damnation to make it the best.
But no matter what kinda u/b t2 deck it is, it would be better if it had watery graves it in. Just like it probably runs a few islands and swamps. Islands and swamps are not rare, and yet i put them in every B/U deck i make, just like the duals.
Onyx7: your right though. things will change, and i will have to change with them, not cling to the past.
they printed signets, bouncelands, taplands, storage lands, snow covered tap lands, coldsteel heart, totems.... man all that stuff is there so you dont NEED the watery graves ;-)
You don't need the shocklands, but they're ridiculously better than all of the alternative (with a possible argument for the painlands). The thing is, with many decks, sometimes you just need the land to come in untapped (e.g. Turn 4, you have 3 lands in play, topdeck the fourth land, so you can play Wrath of God. But the land comes into play tapped, and instead you just die to a horde of weenies, because you can't play Wrath until turn 5 - and you're dead before that.)
Having lands coming to play untapped (even at the cost of 2 life), is really valuable, for Aggro decks (to maintain their mana curve), Control decks (to take care of threats in time), and Combo decks (so their combo can "go off" in time).
One more thought - if Wizards reprints the shocklands in a Core Set, it'll be much harder for them to "ween" people back off it - people are really going to complain then, once they set the precedent of shocklands in a Core Set. As it is now, people say "I wish it were in the Core Set, but I guess since they were just in a block, we can live without it." Once they're in Nth edition, people are going to say "Wait, why're you taking them out? They've become a staple! We need them. They were good enough to reprint in Nth edition - why not for (N+1)th edition?"
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URBig Spender (Casual/Multiplayer) - Putting your junky Timmy cards together the way a Johnny should.
I work very hard for my money, so I can live in my beautiful 4 bedroom house, and eat where I want to eat and have my Disneyland Passes and all that, and one of my things that I work hard for, are my magic cards.
Besides, since most College degrees go to waste anyways, and a very large portion of college students drop out, I wouldnt want to waste money Im already makeing on something that silly. All that, and I only have a high school degree. Someone is getting ripped off it appears.
Also if you want to play with the Big Boys in magic you need to afforde the big boy toys.
it was sarcasm. I spend more than my share for the little money I make on Magic cards.
On a personal note, I take great pleasure in being able to beat players who think their net-deck is better than mine because of their dual lands. $200 dollar mana base or not, nothing makes up for good combo's and general skill.
Which is why I simply feel the rav duals are bad for magic as a whole, because it makes people think that anything other than mono requires them to run, which is completly untrue. And because people can't afford or collect those cards quickly, it discourages new players, which is always bad for any game.
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If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
One more thought - if Wizards reprints the shocklands in a Core Set, it'll be much harder for them to "ween" people back off it - people are really going to complain then, once they set the precedent of shocklands in a Core Set. As it is now, people say "I wish it were in the Core Set, but I guess since they were just in a block, we can live without it." Once they're in Nth edition, people are going to say "Wait, why're you taking them out? They've become a staple! We need them. They were good enough to reprint in Nth edition - why not for (N+1)th edition?"
If your old enough to remember back when I played when they initially were gonna rotate the old dual lands out of extended. They waited till the rotation after that to do it thats right they left the old dual lands when 0 cards of the original set were legal otherwise.
So really why should standard be the only format where good color fixing is a rarity sometimes. Extended has always had quite a bit of color fixing thus probably why some people prefer it.
Also i love how people think without dual lands deck building skills are much more needed i call bullcrap on that. If player abc netdecks every deck then no changes to ANY metagame will effect his deck building skills. Some people seriously have a lot of trouble building a deck due to a multitude of reasons. Thus why netdecking is so popular and to top it off people that can build decently can never seem to build some of the masterpieces that come out of some of the greatest players of all time.
I can build myself a decent deck no doubt its not that hard for me but whenever I see some netdecks I'm like wow thats a nice deck very impressive and quite synergistic. So it is hard to beat netdecks unless you and your playgroup either have a crap load of time to test said deck or your a better or just as good deck builder as some of the best deck builders of all time.
If they were going to be uncommon they would have been uncommon in Ravnica. The main reason for them being in a core set would be to boost sales and that simply will not happen if they are uncommon.
False God I really think that while this thinking can be beneficial, is it fair to make every format like limited. Type 2 should have it's decks that are cheap and good for new players but quite honestly it should be in all formats that money helps. Prices of cards are generally based upon how needed they are. Rav. Duals are amazing as rares but not a good idea as uncommons. They should be perceived as needed because their power level merits this. If someone were to play on a strict budget, why would you think that their deck deserves to be just as good. Limited is a format that is unique because it does not rely on what cards you have. Even though people think they are elite or better because they have a 200$ deck or even more it helps nonetheless. These are my thoughts on why not to reprint and why wizards will not reprint ravnica duals along with them promoting the multicolored abilities which are highly rare if at all shown in Core sets historically.
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Think this is why you have been clashing with so many people. This base assumption is different for them.
I would rather win with my original deck, than lose.
Then I feel sorry for them. Because I think they're playing for the wrong reason. Yeah, I like to win, no argument. But is it worth $200 to me just to get a all dual mana base? Not unless I'm making that money back. Which I'm not.
I do dislike that they're so expensice, but that's not my beef with them. And I DO play mono. I've played mono of every color except blue, and every dual-color combo that dosent include blue(see a pattern here?) and even 5 color(though this includes blue). I dislike the dual lands because it strips an integral part of the challenge of playing MTG from the game.
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Okay, so I'm somewhat confused here. Are you saying that some people don't have the choice of winning/losing with an original deck? Or that they're forced to use shocklands because they can't figure out how to do their mana?
Also, you do realize that if shocklands don't see reprint:
- In Standard Magic, players who don't want to pay tons of money for duals won't need to do so, and can still have decks that have mana as good as anyone else's*. (*Excluding other expensive lands; I think Scrying Sheets is still a bit pricy, but I don't recall.)
- In other formats (and casual), the price of shocklands will probably go down, since people who play formats other than Standard will try to offload all of their duals to buy the newer cards. (Actually, I'm not sure if Vintage/Legacy will be sucking up all of these extra cards and create a constant demand for dwindling supply, but let's ignore this.)
I like making my own decks, I hate net decking, but if my deck does not win then I feel I failed. I design my decks to win. Before I go to states I test my deck, and if they lose in testing, I make a new deck. To me if a deck does not do what it is designed to do, which is beat my opponent, then I have failed as a deck designer.
To win a tournament i need the best deck i can make. (ok technik4 I used NEED the way you keep thinking i did, so go for it) Whether that tournament be states or FNM, I am trying to prove:
(my deck design)+(my play skill)>(net deckers)+(non-netdeckers)
The only way I know how to do that is to win, and to win my deck MUST be the best I can make it. I do not want to get to the semifinals of states/FNM and run into the time where I would not have have to mulligan if I had duals, because now I have just lost the tournament and proved
(my deck design)+(my play skill)<(net deckers)+(non-netdeckers)
Which is not the relation i was going for. But thats just why/how I play magic.
Say they printed 5 at uncommon. This would probably make it about 4x
more likely to open them in a pack of whateverth than Ravnica. They would still be a money card, too, you'd be more likely to get them, but it is actually hard to get the uncommons you want in base set packs.
You're clearly a spike. You play magic because you want to win, but you are also a johnny because you like to bring your own creation to win.
Let me boil this down to:
Ravnica, Guildpact, and Dissension would NOT have sold as well as they did if shocklands were uncommon. Wizards is not a heartless company just seeking to take your money, but they do have to stay in business and they did provide ample mana-fixing at other rarities (bounce lands, signets, elves, farseek, etc etc).
Between Painlands, Coldsnap lands, signets, bounce lands, and Gemstone Mine you can fix a deck without shocks and I bet your win % would not significantly drop. You might have to mulligan more often, and you lose a little tempo, but most non-all out aggro decks can afford to do that.
I don't know what deck you're talking about. 3-color aggro control? What cards do you play. Decklist please.
The Rock is G/B. Please post a decklist that plays better because you added white.
3-color control? What like Roxodon Hierarchy? 3-color combo? Huh? The combo decks around are all red-based (Dragonstorm, Empty the Warrens, and Ignite Memories). I think there's an Enduring Renewal deck, but its only 2 colors. Post me decklists from you and your friend that would be significantly worse without shocklands. Since Planar Chaos, most of them could probably be pared down to 2-colors.
On a sidenote, some Spike/Johnnies like the challenge of fighting players with higher budgets. JMS, Chris Romeo (to an extent, he finally caved and now adds shocks to all his decklists), and a host of other players play FNM and even high-level tournaments (look at some of Tyoshi Fujita's decks) with decks built on a budget. The fun becomes beating people that just netdeck by out-metagaming and out-playing them. The danger becomes you not being able to make a deck that can stand up to the netdecks (which you can always cite budget reasons for) so you cave and spend more money to 'compete'.
I hate that too. I am no fan of games which are pretty much 'biggest budget wins'. I much rather it when you can just rely on skill and know it was completely your fault you lost and not whoever it is that pays you. Can someone donate me 4 of each of those cards mentioned above?:D
Card: [card]
Hybrid: :symub: = order doesn't matter
Spoiler: [spoiler]
Deck: [deck]
Sigh... no... if you must know. I am a Spike/timmy. I play control because control is the only kinda deck where i can consistently get cards like Akroma into play. I do not care how long I have to wait. (Tho my current mono green has enough timmy cards to keep me happy) I just happen to not like net decking.
And now they need to sell core set, they already sold about as much of these as they will. How could they get people to buy core set? hmmm.....
I will take that beat!(especially since the decks my buddies play pretty much run on cards like wood elves and Yavimaya dryad for their mana fixing.) You even have had to mulligan at top 8 in states? I have.... not something i like having to do if i can avoid it. (since i lost that game and it was control on control so i did not get to play another.. silly NH timed top 8.... got 5th... sigh)
NO
I am NOT going to post the deck lists my buddies made. They worked ridiculously hard on their non-net decks. I am not going to post them here. If you cannot figure out how a white rock or a w/G/u aggro control deck would be build, well i am inclined to think YOU are a net decker, and are just looking for more decks... in your net!
Post a deck list? Whats with you and wanting to see deck lists? You know a torment level deck just by the list? Because i know i need to see a deck played first, sir! Well luckly for you this deck is on the net already. Go look on starcitygames, its called "Project X."
There you gosh darn net decker, go net that deck.(tho if you really are a net decker i do not think you will figure out how that one works)That's right the combo player in my group netdecks.
You are complaining that your friends can't make 'original' decks like a standard rock deck with white added or 3-color combo decks (that you aren't willing to 'reveal' the combo) because they can't afford dual lands. Tell them to stick to 2 colors. Splash a third if necessary. After planar chaos many colors got bleeds into abilities they havent had - green card draw, white burn, blue discard, etc.
You think that people being 'forced' to 'only' play 2 colors is unfair. Life is unfair and the best mana-fixing is likely to be rare in the forseeable future (which doesn't mean there won't be good and even very good mana fixing at the lower rarities, which there certainly is and always has been).
You are unwilling to post a list because you don't want to see how unnecessary shocks are in many decks. I'm not trying to downplay their power, but people get it into their heads that they are the cornerstone of a deck, rather than just the mana.
No i am saying they already have... I brought up these decks, which are already built and have all the duals they need in them, because you asked me what decks need to have .... sigh, are you even reading your OWN posts?
Ok, i think this paragraph might NOT be a misinterpretation. Yes i am complaining that people i play at FNM do not have the duals they should have in their decks, because of price.
No i am unwilling to make my friends non netdecks, netdecks by posting them on the net. Also i am sure they would not want to play test with me if i posted their decks on the web just to make a point to you. I know I would not want to play test with someone that did that.
Again i said two cards their decks where running as mana fixing(yes they also run BoPs), go back and read the two cards, read what they do. Think about what duals are. it should all become clear. But again i fear that might be asking to much of you.
The reason i feel that cards like the dual lands should be uncommon because, unlike other chase rares, if your playing with 2 or more colors in your deck and you want your deck to be competitive you should have them. You can make a b/u deck that should not run damnation, but i do not think you could make one that should not run watery grave(i am sure it could work without it, but would be better with it). whenever i think of a deck that is two or more colors, i know it will need to have the respective duals in it to make it the best it can be, this is not true for any of the other non-mana fixing chase rares one can think of. Which is why the duals are worth so much, and why i think they should be uncommon, in X, or XI. They also make the formate more open for more crazy non net decks to work in.
I work very hard for my money, so I can live in my beautiful 4 bedroom house, and eat where I want to eat and have my Disneyland Passes and all that, and one of my things that I work hard for, are my magic cards.
Besides, since most College degrees go to waste anyways, and a very large portion of college students drop out, I wouldnt want to waste money Im already makeing on something that silly. All that, and I only have a high school degree. Someone is getting ripped off it appears.
Also if you want to play with the Big Boys in magic you need to afforde the big boy toys.
QFT!
My Extendo Sig! Because I want to be Cool!!
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
[sarcasm]They should ban the current basic lands and than make rare basics with different names.(in all constructed formats, you could still use them in limited)
I mean you CAN make decks without basics right? Its not like you NEED them. [/sarcasm]
I have built a few decks that only run 1-2 basics.
Isle (rare)
basic land-island
While I agree that printing the duals at uncommon (something that Randy Buehler mentioned he would have done/do if it had been/were possible) would make Constructed less restrictive, it a) would upset the players who did invest some €€€/$$$ in shock lands (many did that, I can tell...) and b) it would cause an inflation of color fixing which should be not that common (no pun intended) as each color should preserve its unique feeling.
On a personal note, I have torn feelings about the current Standard format as I do not like this mess of one billion tier two decks. Therefore I try to stick with the archetypes I started playing (e.g. I have playing UR Tron for more than six months) and I can tell you: It does work!
While I own the relevant cards for playing the most standard decks, I simply choose not to, which would also be an adequate recommendation for budget players (no offence, of course).
I dont understand your basic complaint.
You have all the duals, but wish they were uncommons? ...
How would the format be open for more crazy non-net decks? People that really go nuts making non-net decks get the duals in the colors they need. You dont need 40 duals to make a non-net deck. Just trade for the 4 (or 8) you need. When you make a new deck, trade the ones you have for the ones you don't.
Painlands are a cheap alternative that have been available since shocklands came out.
Face reality: Shocklands won't be Uncommon in any core set. And it would probably hurt the game if they printed future 'best' mana-fixing at uncommon (like the enemy fetches being uncommon instead of rare).
Oh and a U/B control deck would work a lot better with Damnation than it would with Watery Grave, assuming you had to choose between the 2. I can't even believe you implied otherwise.
Minor point - if Wizards reprinted the shocklands as rares, they would probably sell more of tenth edition than if they printed them as uncommons. (People would need to buy more packs.)
For the record, I have a good number of dual lands, not because I spent any money (on any of them!), but because I won drafts, and/or traded with friends who did. It was a fairly easy (and rewarding) way to get them. I know that's somewhat irrelevant now that RGD is a bit passé for drafting, but just a thought. And no, the duals didn't always go to the "shark" uber-players, since we drafted with 6-8 of our friends.
Yes, mana shouldn't be that expensive. But if they'd wanted it to be more available, the would've made them uncommon in the Ravnica block.
And if you are really makign competitive standard decks, I still don't see why you're complaining. In 4-5 months the problem will solve itself when the Ravnica block rotates out. I thought I'd mentioned that before, but perhaps I didn't. Even if they reprint the duals as uncommons, they're going to go for a few bucks a piece, so you'll still need to pay a handful of cash to get complete playsets. Contrast this with them not reprinting them - in Standard you won't have to buy any other lands (other than maybe painlands, or gainlands, or Sheets) to be competitive! If this is a financial concern for Standard decks, this solution should be the most favorable.
One more thing:
People made 2-color decks before Ravnica came out. They even managed to run a few 3+ color decks (with Green being the major color). Without the shocklands around forever, it'll be like old time. Like Mirrodin having rotated out, and no more affinity and zillions of artifacts. People learn how to make their style of deck work in any standard format without the tools they had before.
I wouldnt say that degrees go to waste, more that they arent utilized to their fullest. on topic, i hope we've seen the last of the rav duals for at least a couple of years.
@SoronTheBeast: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/furioustyper.htm
You're upsetting me.... please read what i am writing.
I did not say anything about a control deck. I am saying that you can make a U/B deck(could be a control, could be agro, could be combo, i do not care) without needing a damnation to make it the best.
But no matter what kinda u/b t2 deck it is, it would be better if it had watery graves it in. Just like it probably runs a few islands and swamps. Islands and swamps are not rare, and yet i put them in every B/U deck i make, just like the duals.
Onyx7: your right though. things will change, and i will have to change with them, not cling to the past.
Having lands coming to play untapped (even at the cost of 2 life), is really valuable, for Aggro decks (to maintain their mana curve), Control decks (to take care of threats in time), and Combo decks (so their combo can "go off" in time).
One more thought - if Wizards reprints the shocklands in a Core Set, it'll be much harder for them to "ween" people back off it - people are really going to complain then, once they set the precedent of shocklands in a Core Set. As it is now, people say "I wish it were in the Core Set, but I guess since they were just in a block, we can live without it." Once they're in Nth edition, people are going to say "Wait, why're you taking them out? They've become a staple! We need them. They were good enough to reprint in Nth edition - why not for (N+1)th edition?"
it was sarcasm. I spend more than my share for the little money I make on Magic cards.
On a personal note, I take great pleasure in being able to beat players who think their net-deck is better than mine because of their dual lands. $200 dollar mana base or not, nothing makes up for good combo's and general skill.
Which is why I simply feel the rav duals are bad for magic as a whole, because it makes people think that anything other than mono requires them to run, which is completly untrue. And because people can't afford or collect those cards quickly, it discourages new players, which is always bad for any game.
WAnglesW
WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW
WUGAllymillGUW
QFT!
My Extendo Sig! Because I want to be Cool!!
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
If your old enough to remember back when I played when they initially were gonna rotate the old dual lands out of extended. They waited till the rotation after that to do it thats right they left the old dual lands when 0 cards of the original set were legal otherwise.
So really why should standard be the only format where good color fixing is a rarity sometimes. Extended has always had quite a bit of color fixing thus probably why some people prefer it.
Also i love how people think without dual lands deck building skills are much more needed i call bullcrap on that. If player abc netdecks every deck then no changes to ANY metagame will effect his deck building skills. Some people seriously have a lot of trouble building a deck due to a multitude of reasons. Thus why netdecking is so popular and to top it off people that can build decently can never seem to build some of the masterpieces that come out of some of the greatest players of all time.
I can build myself a decent deck no doubt its not that hard for me but whenever I see some netdecks I'm like wow thats a nice deck very impressive and quite synergistic. So it is hard to beat netdecks unless you and your playgroup either have a crap load of time to test said deck or your a better or just as good deck builder as some of the best deck builders of all time.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!