Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I don't think there will be as many as you're hoping for. the codename has nothing to do with the function of the set. There was an april fools article on the official site saying that there would be, but that was just a joke.
I don't think there will be as many as you're hoping for. the codename has nothing to do with the function of the set. There was an april fools article on the official site saying that there would be, but that was just a joke.
Nothing more to see here.
What he said + they always name the sets in something that comes in threes (Snap, Crackle, Pop / Ctrl, Alt, Del / etc.), although they might throw a curve ball and actually have control stuff in this set.
I agree with all else... This forum is for rumors only... If you know something about the set, post here... Otherwise, comment/flame other posters and/or post decklists that nobody pays attention to regarding the rumor card...
Blue without good counters is like red without burn...
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Only one of the four blue guilds appears in Ravnica; it's possible that a "good" counterspell that works with the mechanic of one of the other three will appear in a later block. It seems as if wizards is trying to avoid having a "best" counterspell, instead printing a variety of others that are more situational, or cost more for somewhat dubious benefits. I think that one of the problems with the classic counterspell, Counterspell, is that unless your opponant is playing his all-land deck or one of the few things that can't be countered, counterspell is the right answer to any other spell. It makes the other counterspells tend to seem uninteresting by comparison. Now that counterspell itself is gone, there's been an awful lot of counterspells that are situationally advantageous, and seeing play where they would've once been overshadowed by CS.
EDIT: (Correct me if my counting is wrong...)
Kamigawa block had 12 things that could counter spells, and one thing that countered an activated ability. Six were in CHK. Many of the spells were far from being orthodox counters.
Mirrodin block had 8 things that could counter spells, and two that countered activated abilities from an artifact source. (Ouphes) Four were in Mirrodin
Onslaught block had 10 things that could counter spells and one that countered an activated or triggered ability. Six were in Onslaught, and the all-creature Legions had but 1.
I would expect at least one other counterspell, though you never know. Countering abilities seems to be about a one-a-block thing.
Counterspell is good, but not that great. Also, you can only have four of them. You must have UU untapped all the time in order to be able to counter anything, leaving you with few ways to play your own threats, nonetheless protect them.
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Counterspell itself isn't really needed anymore, although the improved manabase would help with the need to have UU available. Extended Tog certainly shouldn't miss it when it rotates.
As it is the new counters are better than what Mirrodin had save for Condescend. Mana Leak and Hinder are already a solid base.
I would tend to disagree; counterspell defined MUC for as long as I can remember. As long as the MUC player had two islands untapped, you had to factor in the possiblity of a counterspell. A spell that was a final answer to anything you could do. Two islands meant "I might have a counterspell. Maybe I don't, but I might. Oh, and with these same two islands, I can play CS's henchman, Remove Soul." I don't feel that CS was totally overpowered or anything, but it was certainly a card that shaped magic at all levels of competition like few others did when it was legal. (Dark ritual comes to mind, and Llanowar elves.) The reason that a MUC strategy was so strong for so long was that CS itself was backed up by a large number of "okay" counterspells. If CS was the only thing that could counter a spell, it would have been fine. Unfortunately, every other counterspell they printed compared quite unfavorably to CS, but they certainly couldn't have printed something that was better than CS, because that would have broken things. Now that CS is gone, people play all kinds of counterspells, which I like.
Kamigawa block had 12 things that could counter spells, and one thing that countered an activated ability. Six were in CHK. Many of the spells were far from being orthodox counters.
Mirrodin block had 8 things that could counter spells, and two that countered activated abilities from an artifact source. (Ouphes) Four were in Mirrodin
Onslaught block had 10 things that could counter spells and one that countered an activated or triggered ability. Six were in Onslaught, and the all-creature Legions had but 1.
I would expect at least one other counterspell, though you never know. Countering abilities seems to be about a one-a-block thing.
I didn't check your math but you are correct in assuming that they try to put most of the counterspells for a block in one set... namely the first set. The counterspells that are either most useful or most powerful usually get put into the first block in a set because it somewhat enables limited control. Don't ask me why they're enabling limited control, because it never works, but I suppose the first expansion in a block basically acts as an enabler to all the cool stuff to come in the next two.
HOWEVER, I think Ravnica will be very different in that I doubt expansions later than RAV will have any guild mechanics from the 4 guilds in RAV. This sort-of locks down the possibilities, and rather makes them elaborate as much as possible on 4 guilds in one set, and 3 in the next two with the extra 1/4's going to generic mono-colored spells.
This brings up an interesting point in that, to me, blue/black is the best color pair to associate counterspells with, so all the good counterspells should be tied with that guild. However, according to R_E, the blue/black guild is far more about library destruction than control.
This makes me wonder if (and just bear with me for a minute) perhaps the red/blue guild isn't most appropriate for counter-control. To me, standard control is about manipulating your enemy to make their stuff either miss or fizzle. They try to summon some badass creature, you Remove Soul or Unsummon it. But what about if they throw some direct damage at your face? Blue has been known to get misdirection spells a-la...um... Misdirection, but red is a close second in that department with Shunt and the more recent Sideswipe.
To me, counter-control is screwing your opponent by making their decisions for them. What do you allow them to play, and how do you allow them to play it. So, obviously whichever guild gets the most counterspell cards will contain blue, but I'm starting to believe that it'll be the blue/red guild, as red's misdirection is the closest thing to control that doesn't use the word "counter".
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Counterspell was a given, yes. Right behind Islands. But it's the other stuff that really drives the deck: drawing, finishers, creature control. Without quality version of those, it doesn't matter if you have Counterspell. With them, Counterspell is just icing on the cake.
Let's hope there are guild mechanic/theme related mechanics. If there are then there's a chance for
Spread Confusion - XUU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays X or puts the top X cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Or just:
Psychic Ripple - 1BU
Instant
Counter target spell. Target player removes the top two cards of his or her library from the game.
I'm hoping there will be RU and UW and UG counters too.
Counterspell is good, but not that great. Also, you can only have four of them. You must have UU untapped all the time in order to be able to counter anything, leaving you with few ways to play your own threats, nonetheless protect them.
Counterspell is a spell that defined blue for as long as i can remember. it's also one of the most frustrating cards to play against, and one of the most threatening. when there's UU over there, you've got to pick your plays. it's very annoying for other decks. no other card has ever said "No" as often as Counterspell, and rarely has any card said so as efficiently. Force of Will and Mana Drain can be considered otherwise, but i think we can safely call those exceptions. :winky: Mana Leak and Hinderprovide a decent base, yes, but they're nothing like Force Spike and Counterspell. blue is much more fair now, don't get me wrong. i'm not saying blue is being treated unfairly. i'm very glad to have less threats of No. but i think you're undervaluing Counterspell.
that's really all.
obviously Ravnica will have counterspells. i'm not really sure what you're getting at. first of all, we have two decent ones already. second of all, if you're complaining about the completeness of the spoiler, i think you may need a reality check. it's still pretty early in the rumor season. be happy we have what we have...
I'd like to see some guild counters.
Predict Clarity -
Instant
Choose one - Counter target Enchantment; or Counter target activated or triggered ability of an Enchantment
Natural Vision -
Instant
Choose one - Counter target Artifact OR Counter target activated or triggered ability of an artifact.
Both are mini stifles for only specific cards.
Artifact Blast is in Red but this is strictly better... because Green deserves it more
One thing to note is that use of split mana symbols in counterspells has to be very judicious; there are fairly stringent rules about countering - only blue counters, and any unconditional counter MUST have UU in its cost. (Please don't use super old cards as exceptions, and an exception was made for that WUB charm in Invasion.)
One "threatening" NO spell is not that bad. I am much more worried about powerful single threats such as shrapnel blast(I have six of these overpowered puppies).
The two counters we have so far are mediocre. Three mana should be deninitive, go to any forum on counterspells(I've read many).
No, I don't need a "reality check," I just want to see the counters in Ravnica, it was just an "I can't wait statement" not a critique of R_E. Obviously, it is still a bit early for spoilers. Feuerdrachian, you probably should calm down a bit(And cool down while your at it:winky: :winky: :winky: ).
(your avatar may be cuter than mine, put mine has class and heart):tongue3:
Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I actually don't mind Counterspell so much, since blue needs mass creature control to survive competitively (in Type 2). Vedalken Shackles, Nevinyrral's Disk, etc.
Still, I found Counterspell very.... dull. Blue decks are SLIGHTLY more interesting without it.
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One thing to note is that use of split mana symbols in counterspells has to be very judicious; there are fairly stringent rules about countering - only blue counters, and any unconditional counter MUST have UU in its cost. (Please don't use super old cards as exceptions, and an exception was made for that WUB charm in Invasion.)
For now only blue counters. Bind counters something just like Squelch and that's not super old.
If either of the cards I just came up with were solid counters I could see them being mono blue.
But I think upping the cost t U or U would mean they'd have to do the exact same thing but also draw you a card.
I don't necessarily think there would be a problem with "W Counter target enchantment". Unfortunately I don't think I can cite Demystify as a parallel.
But it isn't out of the realm of possibilities because wizards likes breaking its own rules
(your avatar may be cuter than mine, put mine has class and heart):tongue3:
okay the class thing.. sure. but are you saying Asuka doesn't have heart?
on topic. one threatening No spell is often enough to warp the game. a lot of players will see two islands in the first two turns as an automatic indicator of Counterspell. so they'll try to draw it out.
/me shrugs.
i just find counterspell to be very good. i guess that's all. it's really the definition of countrs, and few are better than it. i mean, Mana Leak just isn't the same. i don't know if it can be argued that there's that many better counters. and countering spells has always been a winning strategy, from turboBlue to Tog. so i was just shocked to hear it said that No isn't that good. thas all. ^-^
if you were just being anxious for counters, couldn't you have been a little more explicit with that? i mean, it does sound like you're complaining from the title.
One thing to note is that use of split mana symbols in counterspells has to be very judicious; there are fairly stringent rules about countering - only blue counters, and any unconditional counter MUST have UU in its cost. (Please don't use super old cards as exceptions, and an exception was made for that WUB charm in Invasion.)
What do you mean by "unconditional" counter? Meaning no option to be not-countered? (Such as Annul, Hisoka's Defiance, Remove Soul, Confound, Thoughtbind?) Or meaning that they affect all spells and also can't be avoided? (Vex, Memory Lapse?) Or do you mean just "Counter Target Spell" and that's it? Because that *is* Counterspell, and so of course they're not going to make identical spells at a different cost. They don't do that.
I believe that Rosewater said that only spells with UU can just say "counter target spell" and possible incude any pluses(Forbid). A guildspell cound let you counter a spell with 1WU or GU or RU ect. That would be against current policy.
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I believe that Rosewater said that only spells with UU can just say "counter target spell" and possible incude any pluses(Forbid). A guildspell cound let you counter a spell with 1WU or GU or RU ect. That would be against current policy.
The First Rule - The UU Rule
This is the cardinal rule of costing counterspells. All hard counters must have UU in its cost. This is true for every hard counterspell in the history of the game save two: Alliances' Arcane Denial and Darksteel's Vex (And hey, Magic wouldn't be Magic if we didn't break every rule once in a while). This is one of the most consistent rules in all of Magic design. The reason behind it is that counterspelling is a very blue ability. If you have access to definitively counter anything R&D believes you ought to be playing a significant amount of blue.
The Second Rule – Respect Granddad
Even though Counterspell is not currently in Standard doesn't mean that it doesn't still have weight around R&D. All costing of counterspells are influenced by the existence of Counterspell. If the card is worse than Counterspell it tends to cost less than UU. If it's better, it costs more than UU.
I think they could definitely make a hinder-type spell for (U/B)(U/B)U. And there is so much room for soft counterspells (I can definitely imagine a 1U: Counter Target Red spell. Draw a card. Or somesuch), and I'm sure they'll make plenty.
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
In before lock, yo.:lock:
Nothing more to see here.
What he said + they always name the sets in something that comes in threes (Snap, Crackle, Pop / Ctrl, Alt, Del / etc.), although they might throw a curve ball and actually have control stuff in this set.
I agree with all else... This forum is for rumors only... If you know something about the set, post here... Otherwise, comment/flame other posters and/or post decklists that nobody pays attention to regarding the rumor card...
It's the way of the Rumor Mill...
Blue without good counters is like red without burn...
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
To restate, so far we have Convolute, which seems slightly playable.
~|@|'>
I enjoy trolling this thread.
EDIT: (Correct me if my counting is wrong...)
Kamigawa block had 12 things that could counter spells, and one thing that countered an activated ability. Six were in CHK. Many of the spells were far from being orthodox counters.
Mirrodin block had 8 things that could counter spells, and two that countered activated abilities from an artifact source. (Ouphes) Four were in Mirrodin
Onslaught block had 10 things that could counter spells and one that countered an activated or triggered ability. Six were in Onslaught, and the all-creature Legions had but 1.
I would expect at least one other counterspell, though you never know. Countering abilities seems to be about a one-a-block thing.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
As it is the new counters are better than what Mirrodin had save for Condescend. Mana Leak and Hinder are already a solid base.
Rewind is Rewind.
I didn't check your math but you are correct in assuming that they try to put most of the counterspells for a block in one set... namely the first set. The counterspells that are either most useful or most powerful usually get put into the first block in a set because it somewhat enables limited control. Don't ask me why they're enabling limited control, because it never works, but I suppose the first expansion in a block basically acts as an enabler to all the cool stuff to come in the next two.
HOWEVER, I think Ravnica will be very different in that I doubt expansions later than RAV will have any guild mechanics from the 4 guilds in RAV. This sort-of locks down the possibilities, and rather makes them elaborate as much as possible on 4 guilds in one set, and 3 in the next two with the extra 1/4's going to generic mono-colored spells.
This brings up an interesting point in that, to me, blue/black is the best color pair to associate counterspells with, so all the good counterspells should be tied with that guild. However, according to R_E, the blue/black guild is far more about library destruction than control.
This makes me wonder if (and just bear with me for a minute) perhaps the red/blue guild isn't most appropriate for counter-control. To me, standard control is about manipulating your enemy to make their stuff either miss or fizzle. They try to summon some badass creature, you Remove Soul or Unsummon it. But what about if they throw some direct damage at your face? Blue has been known to get misdirection spells a-la...um... Misdirection, but red is a close second in that department with Shunt and the more recent Sideswipe.
To me, counter-control is screwing your opponent by making their decisions for them. What do you allow them to play, and how do you allow them to play it. So, obviously whichever guild gets the most counterspell cards will contain blue, but I'm starting to believe that it'll be the blue/red guild, as red's misdirection is the closest thing to control that doesn't use the word "counter".
Spread Confusion - XUU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays X or puts the top X cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Or just:
Psychic Ripple - 1BU
Instant
Counter target spell. Target player removes the top two cards of his or her library from the game.
I'm hoping there will be RU and UW and UG counters too.
uh... no.
no really, No.
Counterspell is a spell that defined blue for as long as i can remember. it's also one of the most frustrating cards to play against, and one of the most threatening. when there's UU over there, you've got to pick your plays. it's very annoying for other decks. no other card has ever said "No" as often as Counterspell, and rarely has any card said so as efficiently. Force of Will and Mana Drain can be considered otherwise, but i think we can safely call those exceptions. :winky: Mana Leak and Hinderprovide a decent base, yes, but they're nothing like Force Spike and Counterspell. blue is much more fair now, don't get me wrong. i'm not saying blue is being treated unfairly. i'm very glad to have less threats of No. but i think you're undervaluing Counterspell.
that's really all.
obviously Ravnica will have counterspells. i'm not really sure what you're getting at. first of all, we have two decent ones already. second of all, if you're complaining about the completeness of the spoiler, i think you may need a reality check. it's still pretty early in the rumor season. be happy we have what we have...
Predict Clarity -
Instant
Choose one - Counter target Enchantment; or Counter target activated or triggered ability of an Enchantment
Natural Vision -
Instant
Choose one - Counter target Artifact OR Counter target activated or triggered ability of an artifact.
Both are mini stifles for only specific cards.
Artifact Blast is in Red but this is strictly better... because Green deserves it more
The two counters we have so far are mediocre. Three mana should be deninitive, go to any forum on counterspells(I've read many).
No, I don't need a "reality check," I just want to see the counters in Ravnica, it was just an "I can't wait statement" not a critique of R_E. Obviously, it is still a bit early for spoilers. Feuerdrachian, you probably should calm down a bit(And cool down while your at it:winky: :winky: :winky: ).
(your avatar may be cuter than mine, put mine has class and heart):tongue3:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Still, I found Counterspell very.... dull. Blue decks are SLIGHTLY more interesting without it.
For now only blue counters. Bind counters something just like Squelch and that's not super old.
If either of the cards I just came up with were solid counters I could see them being mono blue.
But I think upping the cost t U or U would mean they'd have to do the exact same thing but also draw you a card.
I don't necessarily think there would be a problem with "W Counter target enchantment". Unfortunately I don't think I can cite Demystify as a parallel.
But it isn't out of the realm of possibilities because wizards likes breaking its own rules
okay the class thing.. sure. but are you saying Asuka doesn't have heart?
on topic. one threatening No spell is often enough to warp the game. a lot of players will see two islands in the first two turns as an automatic indicator of Counterspell. so they'll try to draw it out.
/me shrugs.
i just find counterspell to be very good. i guess that's all. it's really the definition of countrs, and few are better than it. i mean, Mana Leak just isn't the same. i don't know if it can be argued that there's that many better counters. and countering spells has always been a winning strategy, from turboBlue to Tog. so i was just shocked to hear it said that No isn't that good. thas all. ^-^
if you were just being anxious for counters, couldn't you have been a little more explicit with that? i mean, it does sound like you're complaining from the title.
What do you mean by "unconditional" counter? Meaning no option to be not-countered? (Such as Annul, Hisoka's Defiance, Remove Soul, Confound, Thoughtbind?) Or meaning that they affect all spells and also can't be avoided? (Vex, Memory Lapse?) Or do you mean just "Counter Target Spell" and that's it? Because that *is* Counterspell, and so of course they're not going to make identical spells at a different cost. They don't do that.
Non-Blue counters: Molten Influence, Arenson's Aura, Brine Shaman, Burnout, Deathgrip, Illumination, Lifeforce, Mages' Contest, Order of the Sacred Torch, Teferi's Care. (Not to mention pyro/hydroblast, but those are fairly old.)
More single-blue counters: Thoughtbind, Dispersal Shield, Envelop, Ertai's Trickery, Exclude, Flash Counter, Gainsay, Grip of Amnesia, Intervene, Jaded Response, Laquatus's Disdain, Liquify, Prohibit, Spite.
I think there is plenty of room for (Guildmana)U counterspells.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
But they can always break the rules.
From an article by MaRo... (My bolding.)
I think they could definitely make a hinder-type spell for (U/B)(U/B)U. And there is so much room for soft counterspells (I can definitely imagine a 1U: Counter Target Red spell. Draw a card. Or somesuch), and I'm sure they'll make plenty.