Or you can actually read what I've posted, you may not be able to trigger off of the ability word itself, but you can trigger off its effects. I've said that several times now.
What? Did you miss the difference between Megrim and Astral Slide? Because I know Channel effects trigger Megrim, it's just not worth mentioning once. And you mentioned it once. Hurrah, you've done something not worth doing. Would you like a parade? Because those only go for people who are doing stuff worth doing... or same-sex-sex. Not implying anything here, just a fact about parades.
I'm not going to repeat how ability words are useless anymore. You know it, I know it. At this point it seems you don't understand that uselessness is not a good thing, at which point I have to shake my head and walk away. Like I'm about to do. Because someone who doesn't understand the concept of uselessness can't be talked to. They can't reason. You could find something useless, then decide to take it home with you. You could be giving CPR to a dead jellyfish for years. You could be throwing rocks at a vial with the AIDS virus thining you're finding a cure. You could be doing all sorts of jackassery things (unhinged) all because you don't understand "USELESS"
For example... you could be explaining how ability words trigger megrim, knowing full well your audience knows this AND knows that you know that they know this... and yet despite the fact that the conversation is useless and going about it circles, you'd still be doing it!
Hence, I've drawn a parallel between useless behavior and the uselessness of ability words, hopefully this has brought you about to realize that uselessness is really... not a good thing. Indeed, it's a vice, a sin, a waste, whatever you want to call it. Doing useless things brings down empires, crumbles civilizations... and you want to support it in magic cards. For shame.
What? Did you miss the difference between Megrim and Astral Slide? Because I know Channel effects trigger Megrim, it's just not worth mentioning once. And you mentioned it once. Hurrah, you've done something not worth doing. Would you like a parade? Because those only go for people who are doing stuff worth doing... or same-sex-sex. Not implying anything here, just a fact about parades.
I ..... *sigh* .... who am I kidding, I don't care anymore. I stated my opinion, then answered your patronizing retorts. I won't be attempting anything beyond that. You said ability words such as Channel don't trigger anything (and are therefore useless) and I agreed though I added that often the effects of such ability words do trigger things. A nominal factoid, sure, but it still tied into your statement about ability words so I thought it worth mentioning.
And just a bit of friendly advice, try not to come off like such a downtalking ass. It won't get you much love or respect around here. Just saying.
I'm not going to repeat how ability words are useless anymore. You know it, I know it. At this point it seems you don't understand that uselessness is not a good thing, at which point I have to shake my head and walk away. Like I'm about to do. Because someone who doesn't understand the concept of uselessness can't be talked to. They can't reason. You could find something useless, then decide to take it home with you. You could be giving CPR to a dead jellyfish for years. You could be throwing rocks at a vial with the AIDS virus thining you're finding a cure. You could be doing all sorts of jackassery things (unhinged) all because you don't understand "USELESS"
For example... you could be explaining how ability words trigger megrim, knowing full well your audience knows this AND knows that you know that they know this... and yet despite the fact that the conversation is useless and going about it circles, you'd still be doing it!
Hence, I've drawn a parallel between useless behavior and the uselessness of ability words, hopefully this has brought you about to realize that uselessness is really... not a good thing. Indeed, it's a vice, a sin, a waste, whatever you want to call it. Doing useless things brings down empires, crumbles civilizations... and you want to support it in magic cards. For shame.
Say it with me now:
Your diatribe over the uselessness of ability words aside, you've shown me little in the way of compelling facts over the revival of old mechanics as guild mechanics. And until you do, there's not much more to be said, at least not for me. So take it easy.
I really suspect that between the 10 guild mechanics, the cycles of creatures, spells, and mages, that there will be any other major mechanice. Will some old ones pop up as new ones? I really think that Poison would make a great B/G mechanic, as long as there were enough cards that did it. Looks like B/U is gonna be HEAVY into Discard and Decking - I dont see why they are the only ones with an Alt win condition.
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Vinitage: Oath
Yes, ability words do nothing in terms of game mechanics. Neither does art, flavor text, the copyright line, or card names that are more than numerical identifiers. (I'll trade MIR102 for your BOK057.) These things are far from "useless". They exist for convenience, flavor, and in the case of the copyright line, legal reasons. They could theoretically print cards that look like those stickered test cards that R&D uses, and they would be functional for playing the game. Yes, to someone who cares for nothing but the functionality of cards, ability words are useless. However, the uses they have for the rest of us are detailed in my earlier post. (The one that consists almost entirely of stuff ripped from Forsythe articles.)
ligerjack, you're a ****ing *******, you know that? I'm glad that you are confident in how awesome you think you are, but please, spare me and the rest of MTGSalvation the agony of having to read your douchebag rants crying about how someone else doesn't share your (misinformed) opinions. That is all.
I ..... *sigh* .... who am I kidding, I don't care anymore. I stated my opinion, then answered your patronizing retorts. I won't be attempting anything beyond that. You said ability words such as Channel don't trigger anything (and are therefore useless) and I agreed though I added that often the effects of such ability words do trigger things. A nominal factoid, sure, but it still tied into your statement about ability words so I thought it worth mentioning.
And just a bit of friendly advice, try not to come off like such a downtalking ass. It won't get you much love or respect around here. Just saying.
Say it with me now:
Your diatribe over the uselessness of ability words aside, you've shown me little in the way of compelling facts over the revival of old mechanics as guild mechanics. And until you do, there's not much more to be said, at least not for me. So take it easy.
1. The ability word discussion is realatively useless regardless of what we think. WOTC wants to do more. They don't help the game out at all; but WOTC wants to do more. So take that as you will.
2. I'm sorry you think it's a personal insult that we disagree. All I'm saying is that ability words are useless. It's a fact about the game, they are useless. They provide "continuity" for those who want to use one-word to refer to a mechanic, but then again... thats what keywords do. But keywords actually DO something for the game. And reminder text, great god that it is, helps out those who are unfamiliar with the keywords. Everyone wins. Except those who want more ability words.
3. All I'm saying is it's a possibility. And a good idea; if wizards wants to keep supporting old keywords while still making new mechanics. Dredge and Convolute and even Transmutate (odd name for tutoring...) are great to decent mechanics. I hope they have 6 more great mechanics. If they're coming up short, however, or want to expand flavor, they can have old keywords return to be represetitive of "guilds" "who are related to that old expansion".
PS... Nightmare mechanic (hopefully keyworded) would be neat for B/R.
Quote from Joyd »
Yes, ability words do nothing in terms of game mechanics. Neither does art, flavor text, the copyright line, or card names that are more than numerical identifiers. (I'll trade MIR102 for your BOK057.) These things are far from "useless". They exist for convenience, flavor, and in the case of the copyright line, legal reasons. They could theoretically print cards that look like those stickered test cards that R&D uses, and they would be functional for playing the game. Yes, to someone who cares for nothing but the functionality of cards, ability words are useless. However, the uses they have for the rest of us are detailed in my earlier post. (The one that consists almost entirely of stuff ripped from Forsythe articles.)
Art helps identify cards (read Onslaught morph snafoo disqualifies pro players).
Flavor text gives you something to read while waiting for your opponent to calculate how many goblins he can play this turn to beat your face in.
Copyright line is for copyright, so YuGiOh can't print a 4000/4000 Sera Angel.
Card names identify the cards, and are constantly being used in rules text, see Cranial Extraction among others.
As you can see, you're wrong. However, ability words are useless. Your mistakes about the use of art and flavor text, which is there for... flavor, are clouding the fact that you still have no good arguments for having ability words over keywords in the era of reminder text.
Quote from Noman Peopled »
Hmm, judging from what we've seen so far, Ravnica block will have ten all new keyworded abilities. That's a lot and I doubt they'll clutter it up by revisiting old ones. That's for keyworded abilities, of course. If one is to show up, it won't be tied to a guild.
A. Yes, judging by the fact that 4/4 (100%) of Ravnica's key/ability words are new, IF THE EXPANSIONS FOLLOW SUIT the expansions won't have old words. That's not an argument unless you can prove that expansions necessarily follow suit of the 1st set. Which just isn't aways true.
B. Old block mechanics won't return unless they're guild mechanics (it's VERY unlikely at least), but if they expands an old block mechanic into a guild mechanic, it would be interesting, and would add flavor to function.
As you can see, you're wrong. However, ability words are useless. Your mistakes about the use of art and flavor text, which is there for... flavor, are clouding the fact that you still have no good arguments for having ability words over keywords in the era of reminder text.
Saying ability words are useless doesn't make it so. Look, even I don't think ability words were really necessary, but I can appreciate that they have a function. To review their functions, you can read the Aaron Forsythe quotes. If you don't understand them, the gist of what he is saying is this -
On an ability like channel, the cost and the effect would both have to be specified every time the ability appeared. You will note that on every other keyworded activated ability, either the trigger (cost) or the effect is consistant across the ability. In the case of Flashback, Madness, Cycling, Morph, and others, the effect is always the same. On Threshold and a few others, the trigger is always the same. Each channel card has a different trigger (because the mana costs are all different) and a different effect. (They all do different things when channeled.) Once the cost and the effect were printed on the card, which they would have to be, there is nothing left for the keyword to affect. The keyword would have essentially no meaning on the card. Now, keywords are "Rules text", and I suspect that Wizards avoids printing rules text that doesn't do anything, even if, yes, it means that they can't make an Astral Slide for Channel.
(Anticipating possible arguments:
Madness always has the same effect - "Put this spell on the stack".
Transmute always has the same effect - "Search for a card with the same CMC as this one."
Flashback always has the same effect - "Put a copy of this spell on the stack".
Keywords such as Trample and Doublestrike are not activated abilities.)
Saying ability words are useless doesn't make it so.
Congrats for stating the obvious.
But the fact of the matter is WOTC itself tells us "ability words do not affect the game". They're unflavorful flavor text. Period. "Cards with Sweep" are just "Cards with mechanic X that could have been keyworded... but wasn't."
You can dispute the fact that they're useless, but as it's a truth about the game, you'd be better off disputing that wheels are round or that a day has 24 hours in it.
It would if you think it more flavorful than having new ones, which it just isn't. It's a simple matter of opinions.
This suggestion is pretty interesting, though, in that it could emphasize the multiplanarity (ugly word, but you know what I mean). Unfortunately, as of now, nothing suggests that this will be a more than minor theme of the cards' flavor (with the major being the guilds, of sourse). I just don't see how WotC would want players to identify a Guild with an older block or plane.
Again, I can be wrong - as can you.
1. Right, you don't have to prove anything. Thus you don't have an argument. Reading is your friend. Thus far you're claiming random things w/o support. "it's never happened before" isn't an argument, and it actually has happened before (Cycling).
2. I think we'd have all liked to see Provoke over Radiance (anyone disagree here? Radiance-style mechanics could have been done in the guild, but with Provoke the keyword). Hence, it's a matter of popular opinion. And more importantly, we can judge mechanics based on what they do. Radiance is limited and not Red's focus, meanwhile white gets this type of effect more often than not...
No, I'm just annoyed when people try to defend clearly poorly thought out choices. Either they don't understand why it's a bad choice, or they don't care that bad choices are being made... that's fine. But to come along later and say "oh, but see... uh... Kodamas Might and Reach count" doesn't cut it, it reaks of revisionist history. What's more annoying, however, is that Saviors had several big, green legends that could have been the kodamas of E+W. But they copped out. And saying they didn't is just rubbing salt on the wound. Skullclamp? Broken, MOVE ON. Jitte? Broken, MOVE ON. Kodamas and Ninjitsu cheated? MOVE ON. When we examine past blocks, we talk about it. We don't need to try and justify it, WOTC does enough of that on their own.
The kodama's aren't trees, they are the spirits of trees. Rarely is a second expansion mechanic redone in the third set: Modular seems to be the exception. Was there provoke in scourge? was there madness in Judgement? There are always exceptions. Read this article:
From the guy who conceived the kodama, no less.
I don't think he can prove anything, as wizards is always trying new things.
I too think that a combat mechanic should be the Boros guilds mechanic. Radiance has its advantages, but they seem more of a combat based guild. Provoke is great, although some of the provoke cards were dissapointing in legions. (Lowland tracker, while a good morph killer, hasn't got much else going for him)
The kodama's aren't trees, they are the spirits of trees. Rarely is a second expansion mechanic redone in the third set: Modular seems to be the exception. Was there provoke in scourge? was there madness in Judgement? There are always exceptions. Read this article:
From the guy who conceived the kodama, no less.
I don't think he can prove anything, as wizards is always trying new things.
I too think that a combat mechanic should be the Boros guilds mechanic. Radiance has its advantages, but they seem more of a combat based guild. Provoke is great, although some of the provoke cards were dissapointing in legions. (Lowland tracker, while a good morph killer, hasn't got much else going for him)
Wow... shorthand (calling them trees) instead of "spirits that inhabit trees" confused you that much?
And the fact is reusing good mechanics is a sign of strength, not incompitence. I do recall cycling and Morph in Scourge and Legions respectively.
And yes, Radiance sucks. And yes, not all of Legions was playable. I'd have made it playable, but with some cards that didn't go well together (Sacrifice efficient, but goblin hating, beater if you control goblins; cleric of light gets +2,+2 as long as no opponent controls zombies, etc. Amplify wouldn't have been made either... sheesh).
I really didn't want to comment in this thread again, but I feel the need to explain an aspect of set design. Every recent block has some a few large mechanics that are spread out across the block, and a few small mechanics that are each contained within a set. An example of a large mechanic is Bushido, Morph, or Kicker. Usually, but not always, the large mechanics are ones that have a lot of room to explore, and they are developed over the course of a set. Kicker is an excellent example of this. An example of a small mechanic is Ninjutsu, Storm, or Scry. A special exception was made for modular, which appeared on one card in Fifth Dawn because of its fun interaction with Sunburst, which was a Fifth Dawn set mechanic. In addition, the mechanic "Cycling" was used in two blocks; it has been stated on Wizards website that they are not adverse to reusing mechanics, particularly those such as cycling, which was underexplored in its first incarnation. However, they have a long backlist of mechanics they're waiting to use as well. Mechanics do not just appear all willy-nilly; there is a great deal of structure to thier use. (And reuse.)
Wow... shorthand (calling them trees) instead of "spirits that inhabit trees" confused you that much?
And the fact is reusing good mechanics is a sign of strength, not incompitence. I do recall cycling and Morph in Scourge and Legions respectively.
And yes, Radiance sucks. And yes, not all of Legions was playable. I'd have made it playable, but with some cards that didn't go well together (Sacrifice efficient, but goblin hating, beater if you control goblins; cleric of light gets +2,+2 as long as no opponent controls zombies, etc. Amplify wouldn't have been made either... sheesh).
Is it possible for you to argue a point without insulting someone?
Shadow is generally considered to be not a spectacularly designed ability. It's like less interesting flying, and it generally decreased interactivity, which is no fun. In virtually all instances, the ability is basically the same as "can't block, unblockable", as even in an all-tempest format, you don't usually have shadow creatures getting blocked, and the shadow creatures aren't doing much blocking themselves. Furthermore, unblockable creatures early on cause problems. Flying, the king of evasion, has a huge history of cards that interact with it; shadow does not. I would put shadow very very low on the list.
Yeah you guys do realize toshiro is 100% NOT in ravnica. He was sent to dominaria where he got freaky and sired (or great great great grandsired perhaps) the later-to-come legend tetsuo umezawa.
What? Did you miss the difference between Megrim and Astral Slide? Because I know Channel effects trigger Megrim, it's just not worth mentioning once. And you mentioned it once. Hurrah, you've done something not worth doing. Would you like a parade? Because those only go for people who are doing stuff worth doing... or same-sex-sex. Not implying anything here, just a fact about parades.
I'm not going to repeat how ability words are useless anymore. You know it, I know it. At this point it seems you don't understand that uselessness is not a good thing, at which point I have to shake my head and walk away. Like I'm about to do. Because someone who doesn't understand the concept of uselessness can't be talked to. They can't reason. You could find something useless, then decide to take it home with you. You could be giving CPR to a dead jellyfish for years. You could be throwing rocks at a vial with the AIDS virus thining you're finding a cure. You could be doing all sorts of jackassery things (unhinged) all because you don't understand "USELESS"
For example... you could be explaining how ability words trigger megrim, knowing full well your audience knows this AND knows that you know that they know this... and yet despite the fact that the conversation is useless and going about it circles, you'd still be doing it!
Hence, I've drawn a parallel between useless behavior and the uselessness of ability words, hopefully this has brought you about to realize that uselessness is really... not a good thing. Indeed, it's a vice, a sin, a waste, whatever you want to call it. Doing useless things brings down empires, crumbles civilizations... and you want to support it in magic cards. For shame.
I ..... *sigh* .... who am I kidding, I don't care anymore. I stated my opinion, then answered your patronizing retorts. I won't be attempting anything beyond that. You said ability words such as Channel don't trigger anything (and are therefore useless) and I agreed though I added that often the effects of such ability words do trigger things. A nominal factoid, sure, but it still tied into your statement about ability words so I thought it worth mentioning.
And just a bit of friendly advice, try not to come off like such a downtalking ass. It won't get you much love or respect around here. Just saying.
Say it with me now:
Your diatribe over the uselessness of ability words aside, you've shown me little in the way of compelling facts over the revival of old mechanics as guild mechanics. And until you do, there's not much more to be said, at least not for me. So take it easy.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
I used to judge alot.
1. The ability word discussion is realatively useless regardless of what we think. WOTC wants to do more. They don't help the game out at all; but WOTC wants to do more. So take that as you will.
2. I'm sorry you think it's a personal insult that we disagree. All I'm saying is that ability words are useless. It's a fact about the game, they are useless. They provide "continuity" for those who want to use one-word to refer to a mechanic, but then again... thats what keywords do. But keywords actually DO something for the game. And reminder text, great god that it is, helps out those who are unfamiliar with the keywords. Everyone wins. Except those who want more ability words.
3. All I'm saying is it's a possibility. And a good idea; if wizards wants to keep supporting old keywords while still making new mechanics. Dredge and Convolute and even Transmutate (odd name for tutoring...) are great to decent mechanics. I hope they have 6 more great mechanics. If they're coming up short, however, or want to expand flavor, they can have old keywords return to be represetitive of "guilds" "who are related to that old expansion".
PS... Nightmare mechanic (hopefully keyworded) would be neat for B/R.
Art helps identify cards (read Onslaught morph snafoo disqualifies pro players).
Flavor text gives you something to read while waiting for your opponent to calculate how many goblins he can play this turn to beat your face in.
Copyright line is for copyright, so YuGiOh can't print a 4000/4000 Sera Angel.
Card names identify the cards, and are constantly being used in rules text, see Cranial Extraction among others.
As you can see, you're wrong. However, ability words are useless. Your mistakes about the use of art and flavor text, which is there for... flavor, are clouding the fact that you still have no good arguments for having ability words over keywords in the era of reminder text.
A. Yes, judging by the fact that 4/4 (100%) of Ravnica's key/ability words are new, IF THE EXPANSIONS FOLLOW SUIT the expansions won't have old words. That's not an argument unless you can prove that expansions necessarily follow suit of the 1st set. Which just isn't aways true.
B. Old block mechanics won't return unless they're guild mechanics (it's VERY unlikely at least), but if they expands an old block mechanic into a guild mechanic, it would be interesting, and would add flavor to function.
Saying ability words are useless doesn't make it so. Look, even I don't think ability words were really necessary, but I can appreciate that they have a function. To review their functions, you can read the Aaron Forsythe quotes. If you don't understand them, the gist of what he is saying is this -
On an ability like channel, the cost and the effect would both have to be specified every time the ability appeared. You will note that on every other keyworded activated ability, either the trigger (cost) or the effect is consistant across the ability. In the case of Flashback, Madness, Cycling, Morph, and others, the effect is always the same. On Threshold and a few others, the trigger is always the same. Each channel card has a different trigger (because the mana costs are all different) and a different effect. (They all do different things when channeled.) Once the cost and the effect were printed on the card, which they would have to be, there is nothing left for the keyword to affect. The keyword would have essentially no meaning on the card. Now, keywords are "Rules text", and I suspect that Wizards avoids printing rules text that doesn't do anything, even if, yes, it means that they can't make an Astral Slide for Channel.
(Anticipating possible arguments:
Madness always has the same effect - "Put this spell on the stack".
Transmute always has the same effect - "Search for a card with the same CMC as this one."
Flashback always has the same effect - "Put a copy of this spell on the stack".
Keywords such as Trample and Doublestrike are not activated abilities.)
Congrats for stating the obvious.
But the fact of the matter is WOTC itself tells us "ability words do not affect the game". They're unflavorful flavor text. Period. "Cards with Sweep" are just "Cards with mechanic X that could have been keyworded... but wasn't."
You can dispute the fact that they're useless, but as it's a truth about the game, you'd be better off disputing that wheels are round or that a day has 24 hours in it.
1. Right, you don't have to prove anything. Thus you don't have an argument. Reading is your friend. Thus far you're claiming random things w/o support. "it's never happened before" isn't an argument, and it actually has happened before (Cycling).
2. I think we'd have all liked to see Provoke over Radiance (anyone disagree here? Radiance-style mechanics could have been done in the guild, but with Provoke the keyword). Hence, it's a matter of popular opinion. And more importantly, we can judge mechanics based on what they do. Radiance is limited and not Red's focus, meanwhile white gets this type of effect more often than not...
The kodama's aren't trees, they are the spirits of trees. Rarely is a second expansion mechanic redone in the third set: Modular seems to be the exception. Was there provoke in scourge? was there madness in Judgement? There are always exceptions.
Read this article:
From the guy who conceived the kodama, no less.
I don't think he can prove anything, as wizards is always trying new things.
I too think that a combat mechanic should be the Boros guilds mechanic. Radiance has its advantages, but they seem more of a combat based guild. Provoke is great, although some of the provoke cards were dissapointing in legions. (Lowland tracker, while a good morph killer, hasn't got much else going for him)
Wow... shorthand (calling them trees) instead of "spirits that inhabit trees" confused you that much?
And the fact is reusing good mechanics is a sign of strength, not incompitence. I do recall cycling and Morph in Scourge and Legions respectively.
And yes, Radiance sucks. And yes, not all of Legions was playable. I'd have made it playable, but with some cards that didn't go well together (Sacrifice efficient, but goblin hating, beater if you control goblins; cleric of light gets +2,+2 as long as no opponent controls zombies, etc. Amplify wouldn't have been made either... sheesh).
Is it possible for you to argue a point without insulting someone?
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