If hand size is indeed the theme of Saviors, as has been speculated from the spanish card, what new keywords could they come up with to play with this idea, without making the keywords completely useless?
A few ideas:
Enduring (number) - If this card would be put into a graveyard from play, you may discard (number) cards to return it to your hand instead
Example:
The Unspeakable's Mustache UUU
Legendary Enchantment
Enduring 2
Instants have Splice onto Arcane-Put the top four cards of your library into your graveyard.
Scorch - Whenever this card is tapped, discard a card.
Akki Scout RR
Creature-Goblin Warrior
2/1
Haste, First Strike, Scorch
or, they could go the Fear route:
Vex - When this ability is activated, your opponent may draw a card.
Eiganjo Gate
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool
Vex, WW, T: Creatures you control gain first strike until end of turn.
just general ideas. Your comment on Enduring is irrelevant, as only one Buyback cost was discarding cards (Forbid), and this would go on permanents as opposed to instants. The Vex idea...why not? It could be an interesting keyword if done correctly.
Because they are wizards and they are in love with Keywords as of late.
There were at least several creatures which had Vigilance or Fear or whatnot, and Vigilance at least fit into Kamigawa's Theme...This keyword is just random.
First, why does the fact that old creatures had 'attacking does not cause to tap' make Vigilance a better keyword? Second, these were just concepts to consider, and I was expecting that if the thread caught on others would proffer their own ideas. Finally, the 'Vex' idea has been used before on cards, notably Phelddagrif.
Ivory Tower would be a perfect fit for a set with 'hand size matters' as a theme. Along with Black Vise & The Rack, (although there was a semi-reprint of these in 5th Dawn)
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If Saviors is the *hand size matters* set, I have no doubt we'll see something like this:
Samurai Soratami
2UU
Legendary creature - Moonfolk Samuari
Flying, Bushido - X
Samurai dude has Bushido equal to the number of cards in your hand.
1, Return a land you control to owners hand: Samuari Soratami cannot be the target of spell and abilities until end of turn.
2/2
What do you think? I can see this set being the one that really boosts the Soratami decks in block, with the 'hand size matters' effects, and easy way of increasing yor hand in a pinch seems really strong...
It seems very believable that SoK will be the hand-size matters set, just like scourge was the set with "converted mana cost 6 or more matters" (and dragons by the way, which does fit easily together with the theme.
This was also a theme no one could think of that WotC is doing such a theme in tribal block.
So why not hand size matters for saviors. Soratamis are perfect for that idea. So is black discard.
Now we have to wait what the other colors get.
Maybe a keyword like Treshold
Michiko, Daughter of Konda
2WW
Legendary Creature - Human XXX
White creatures have protection from Spirits and from arcane.
"New Treshold 4": (You have New Treshold as long as you have 4 or more cards in your hand) Michiko, Daughter of Konda has "W, T: Prevent all damage that would be dealt by Spirits this turn."
1/1
Why bother with a new threshold ability when they can tweak the old one?
Errata all the old threshold stuff to threshold 7, then print this
Michiko, Daughter of Konda - 2WW
Legendary Creature — Human Samurai (R)
White creatures have protection from Spirits and from Arcane.
Threshold 4 — Michiko, Daughter of Konda has "W, T: Prevent all damage that would be dealt by Spirits this turn." (As long as there are four or more cards in your graveyard, this creature has this ability.)
1/1
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
You're not serious, are you? Buyback involves paying a cost to return something to your hand instead of to the graveyard CONTINUOUSLY. Flashback involves paying a cost to play something out of the graveyard ONCE.
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Flashback was clearly an attempt to make a less ridiculously abusive version of Buyback. I mean, honestly, back in Tempest/Urza times, Whispers of the Muse was a very played card..that should show you how degenerate buyback was...Flashback was a much cleaner, more realistic concept..but it was obv. inspired by buyback.
Michiko, Daughter of Konda
2WW
Legendary Creature - Human XXX
White creatures have protection from Spirits and from arcane.
"New Treshold 4": (You have New Treshold as long as you have 4 or more cards in your hand) Michiko, Daughter of Konda has "W, T: Prevent all damage that would be dealt by Spirits this turn."
1/1
As in, not threshold. There's no way they'd just toss in threshold in the third set of a block, at a lower amount in any case.
Samurai Soratami
2UU
Legendary creature - Moonfolk Samuari
Flying, Bushido - X
Samurai dude has Bushido equal to the number of cards in your hand.
1, Return a land you control to owners hand: Samuari Soratami cannot be the target of spell and abilities until end of turn.
2/2
...
Third: Bushido is back in force, basically anything that's not a spirit in white or red has Bushido, as well as a single blue samurai legend who has "Bushido X" which is the difference in the cards in your hand and your opponens. It's also untargetable. Note: There IS a single Goblin with Bushido, a 2/1 legend for RR1 with Bushido 2 and Haste and Mountainwalk. The one legendary Ogre Samurai gains Bushido 1 whenever you sacrifice a land.
At least the Goblin w/ "Scorch" doesn't have Bushido. In any case, I'm doubtful that anything involves discarding/graveyardness will be a major theme in SoK, "Oppressive Will", or not. Black Vise would be a terrible reprint.
You're not serious, are you? Buyback involves paying a cost to return something to your hand instead of to the graveyard CONTINUOUSLY. Flashback involves paying a cost to play something out of the graveyard ONCE.
Buyback is an ability to make a SPELL reusable
Flashback is an ability to make a SPELL reusable
Enduring is an ability to make a PERMENANT reusable
If someone says that enduring is like buyback (and really, he just said "Buyback" implying that they were exactly the same), I have every right to say that flashback is like buyback. Can you honestly not see the similarity? Can you honestly not see that flashback is more like buyback than enduring?
Buyback is a replacement effect. Enduring is a replacement effect. Flashback... what the hell is that? It makes people rely on graveyards, but it doesn't replace going to the graveyard, unless you go on about the clause of RFGing it instead of going to graveyard when Flashbacking something.
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Buyback is a replacement effect. Enduring is a replacement effect. Flashback... what the hell is that? It makes people rely on graveyards, but it doesn't replace going to the graveyard, unless you go on about the clause of RFGing it instead of going to graveyard when Flashbacking something.
Flashback was often refered to as the return of buyback. Flashback and buyback both use mana costs. Many flashback costs pay homage to similar buyback cards (Morgue Theft/Disturbed Burial). I agree that flashback is different from buyback, but enduring is even futhur from buyback.
Flashback was clearly an attempt to make a less ridiculously abusive version of Buyback. I mean, honestly, back in Tempest/Urza times, Whispers of the Muse was a very played card..that should show you how degenerate buyback was...Flashback was a much cleaner, more realistic concept..but it was obv. inspired by buyback.
DEGENERATE? Whispers of the Muse was undoubtedly a good card, but that doesn't mean it's broken...(basic lands are a very played card! no, we've got to ban them!)
Quote from Bogardan Mage »
I agree that flashback is different from buyback, but enduring is even futhur from buyback.
Enduring: If this card would be put into a graveyard from play, you may discard # cards. If you do, put ~ into your hand instead of your graveyard.
Buyback: You may do X in addition to any other costs as you play this spell. If you do, put ~ into your hand instead of your graveyard as part of its resolution.
Flashback: You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.
Enduring: If this card would be put into a graveyard from play, you may discard # cards. If you do, put ~ into your hand instead of your graveyard.
Buyback: You may do X in addition to any other costs as you play this spell. If you do, put ~ into your hand instead of your graveyard as part of its resolution.
Flashback: You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.
That still doesn't warrent a response consisting of nothing but the word "Buyback", especially since when you posted said response the flashback debate hadn't even begun. Fine, I concede. Flashback isn't like buyback. It doesn't change your post.
In addition to the Soratami, theres tons of stuff already that tinkers around with handsize.
In general, there is Soulshift, Splice, and Ninjutsu, all of which can change the way your hand size can swing (Ninjutsu generally keeping things static, though there is Ninja of the Deep Hours and Okiba-Gang, of course)
Black seems to have quite a few more discard effects than usual (11 so far to the 8 in the entirety of Mirrodin block, including necrogen spellbomb and specter's shroud)
Blue has the Soratami of course, Graceful Adept and the usual compliment of card drawing/bounce. Myojin of Seeing Winds and Jushi Apprentice on the massive side of things.
Green- well, theres kodama's reach, commune with nature, and things like that... I guess... then again, theres always Maro. If hand size is a major theme, expect another legendary version.
Red- Always at the top of the hand-size food chain. /sarcasm
White- Sure does have Tallowisp. Yup
Ok, so my argument only really holds up with Blue and Black, the lover and hater of the hand. Stands to reason they'd be the best about it. Green and White do have Soulshift, which may actually matter, and everyone has access to splice.
That still doesn't warrent a response consisting of nothing but the word "Buyback", especially since when you posted said response the flashback debate hadn't even begun. Fine, I concede. Flashback isn't like buyback. It doesn't change your post.
Hokay, I will eeeelllaaaabbboooorrraattee...I think Enduring is too much like Buyback for it to be printed, although it is possible.
How about a mechanic called Deep Throat - Target opponent must swing their nuts in front of your face and yell "wheeee!" or they lose the game and go straight to the wacky wing where little boys run around in tight outfits and politely call you "father." I call it the Michael Jackson wing.
Handsize opens up possibilities for reprints of the same nature. Ivory Tower, The Rack, or cards that depend on the handsize in order to function properly: Empyrial Armor/Empyrial Plate, Storm Seeker, etc...I'd like to see a keyworded mechanic that enables other abilities to function if you have more than 4 cards in your hand. Binding or something would be a good start.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Hmm, mechanics for hand size? No, I'm thinking hand size is going to matter as a variable. <Looks at oppressive will and starts creating new cards based on it...
<Red>
Instant R2
Deals damage to target creature or player equal to number of cards in your hand.
<Green>
Instant G2
Puts X 1/1 <Colorless?> Spirit tokens into play.
<White>
Instant W2
Prevent <redirect> next X damgage to creatures and players.
<Black>
Instant B2
Target creature gets -x/-x until end of turn.
(I know there too much like the shoals, but hey. It's just Idea's.)
Kodama of the West Tree 3GG
Legendary Creature - Spirit
~this~ has power and toughness equal to the number of cards in your hand.
G: Regenerate ~this~
*/*
Hokay, I will eeeelllaaaabbboooorrraattee...I think Enduring is too much like Buyback for it to be printed, although it is possible.
Well then, I'll say that because it's on permenants and not on spells it's completely different (in terms of "this has already been printed"). Being kinda similar to something printed in 1997 should not exclude a mechanic from being printed, unless it could be replaced by the aformentioned something (for example, if it were on spells instead of on permenants).
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A few ideas:
Enduring (number) - If this card would be put into a graveyard from play, you may discard (number) cards to return it to your hand instead
Example:
The Unspeakable's Mustache UUU
Legendary Enchantment
Enduring 2
Instants have Splice onto Arcane-Put the top four cards of your library into your graveyard.
Scorch - Whenever this card is tapped, discard a card.
Akki Scout RR
Creature-Goblin Warrior
2/1
Haste, First Strike, Scorch
or, they could go the Fear route:
Vex - When this ability is activated, your opponent may draw a card.
Eiganjo Gate
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool
Vex, WW, T: Creatures you control gain first strike until end of turn.
etc. Any thoughts?
Buyback.
Why would they keyword this?
Because they are wizards and they are in love with Keywords as of late.
There were at least several creatures which had Vigilance or Fear or whatnot, and Vigilance at least fit into Kamigawa's Theme...This keyword is just random.
Not the fact that old creatures had it, but the fact that many creatures have it. (refer to point 3)
Yeah, ok. I'm just pointing out some things. (your "scorch" is a possible thing, btw)
cards with the "vex" ability. cards with vigilance.
4 vs 66.
Samurai Soratami
2UU
Legendary creature - Moonfolk Samuari
Flying, Bushido - X
Samurai dude has Bushido equal to the number of cards in your hand.
1, Return a land you control to owners hand: Samuari Soratami cannot be the target of spell and abilities until end of turn.
2/2
What do you think? I can see this set being the one that really boosts the Soratami decks in block, with the 'hand size matters' effects, and easy way of increasing yor hand in a pinch seems really strong...
just a thought
Why bother with a new threshold ability when they can tweak the old one?
Errata all the old threshold stuff to threshold 7, then print this
Michiko, Daughter of Konda - 2WW
Legendary Creature — Human Samurai (R)
White creatures have protection from Spirits and from Arcane.
Threshold 4 — Michiko, Daughter of Konda has "W, T: Prevent all damage that would be dealt by Spirits this turn." (As long as there are four or more cards in your graveyard, this creature has this ability.)
1/1
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Oh come on. Flashback was more like buyback than this and they printed that. This is buyback for permenants, which doesn't yet exist.
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
As in, not threshold. There's no way they'd just toss in threshold in the third set of a block, at a lower amount in any case.
...
At least the Goblin w/ "Scorch" doesn't have Bushido. In any case, I'm doubtful that anything involves discarding/graveyardness will be a major theme in SoK, "Oppressive Will", or not. Black Vise would be a terrible reprint.
Buyback is an ability to make a SPELL reusable
Flashback is an ability to make a SPELL reusable
Enduring is an ability to make a PERMENANT reusable
If someone says that enduring is like buyback (and really, he just said "Buyback" implying that they were exactly the same), I have every right to say that flashback is like buyback. Can you honestly not see the similarity? Can you honestly not see that flashback is more like buyback than enduring?
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
Flashback was often refered to as the return of buyback. Flashback and buyback both use mana costs. Many flashback costs pay homage to similar buyback cards (Morgue Theft/Disturbed Burial). I agree that flashback is different from buyback, but enduring is even futhur from buyback.
DEGENERATE? Whispers of the Muse was undoubtedly a good card, but that doesn't mean it's broken...(basic lands are a very played card! no, we've got to ban them!)
Enduring: If this card would be put into a graveyard from play, you may discard # cards. If you do, put ~ into your hand instead of your graveyard.
Buyback: You may do X in addition to any other costs as you play this spell. If you do, put ~ into your hand instead of your graveyard as part of its resolution.
Flashback: You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.
That still doesn't warrent a response consisting of nothing but the word "Buyback", especially since when you posted said response the flashback debate hadn't even begun. Fine, I concede. Flashback isn't like buyback. It doesn't change your post.
In general, there is Soulshift, Splice, and Ninjutsu, all of which can change the way your hand size can swing (Ninjutsu generally keeping things static, though there is Ninja of the Deep Hours and Okiba-Gang, of course)
Black seems to have quite a few more discard effects than usual (11 so far to the 8 in the entirety of Mirrodin block, including necrogen spellbomb and specter's shroud)
Blue has the Soratami of course, Graceful Adept and the usual compliment of card drawing/bounce. Myojin of Seeing Winds and Jushi Apprentice on the massive side of things.
Green- well, theres kodama's reach, commune with nature, and things like that... I guess... then again, theres always Maro. If hand size is a major theme, expect another legendary version.
Red- Always at the top of the hand-size food chain. /sarcasm
White- Sure does have Tallowisp. Yup
Ok, so my argument only really holds up with Blue and Black, the lover and hater of the hand. Stands to reason they'd be the best about it. Green and White do have Soulshift, which may actually matter, and everyone has access to splice.
Hokay, I will eeeelllaaaabbboooorrraattee...I think Enduring is too much like Buyback for it to be printed, although it is possible.
Handsize opens up possibilities for reprints of the same nature. Ivory Tower, The Rack, or cards that depend on the handsize in order to function properly: Empyrial Armor/Empyrial Plate, Storm Seeker, etc...I'd like to see a keyworded mechanic that enables other abilities to function if you have more than 4 cards in your hand. Binding or something would be a good start.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
<Red>
Instant R2
Deals damage to target creature or player equal to number of cards in your hand.
<Green>
Instant G2
Puts X 1/1 <Colorless?> Spirit tokens into play.
<White>
Instant W2
Prevent <redirect> next X damgage to creatures and players.
<Black>
Instant B2
Target creature gets -x/-x until end of turn.
(I know there too much like the shoals, but hey. It's just Idea's.)
Behind the eyes of truth, is a world of illustions.
Dragon Riderof a Mist Dragonn anyway with the Dragon Riders Clan.
Kodama of the West Tree 3GG
Legendary Creature - Spirit
~this~ has power and toughness equal to the number of cards in your hand.
G: Regenerate ~this~
*/*
Well then, I'll say that because it's on permenants and not on spells it's completely different (in terms of "this has already been printed"). Being kinda similar to something printed in 1997 should not exclude a mechanic from being printed, unless it could be replaced by the aformentioned something (for example, if it were on spells instead of on permenants).