Just a tidbit from Paul Sottosanti's article for 1/14/05, "When Trees Attack" --
"There's a card in the set that almost died at numerous points because it carried with it the possibility of first turn kills in Standard, but it narrowly survived and still exists today."
have we collected any data on cards covered in the Rumor Mill that could kill on turn one? Just thought this would make a very interesting topic for discussion.
The answer is clearly the red shoal;
Spark Elemental/Raging Goblin + 2 of them removing furnace dragon/red myojin: attack for 19-23 on turn one (so double dragon on a goblin wouldnt win it)
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I think it was the red Shoal, the one that lets you remove a red card from your hand instead of paying XRR, and target creature gets +X/+0 until e.o.t, where X equals the c.m.c of the card removed.
Turn 1:
Mountain
Spark Elemental
Red Shoal removing Furnace Dragon/Red Myojin
Red Shoal removing Furnace Dragon/Red Myojin
Swing for 21, oops, I win
I think it is referring to a turn 1 raging goblin (or other haste creature) plus the red shoal removing cards like obliterate to deal 20 damage on turn 1 . This is what 1st camr to mind but it also may be something that we have not seen yet? Just my thoughts .
This may be the red Shoal, though you'd have to be really really lucky to pull it off.
Turn 1, Mountain, Raging Goblin, swing, play Shoal #1, remove Myojin of Infinite Rage, Shoal #2, remove Furnace Dragon/Myojin of Infinite Rage, win.
EDIT: Wow thats a lot of us having the exact same thought at the same time.
thats awsome my friend at out local shop was talking about this it seems fun but how often will you get the cards you need to go off on turn one?
Well, let's put it this way. I've got a Vintage Doomsday deck in MWS that only needs a Dark Rit (4x in deck), a Doomdsay (4x in deck), either an underground sea or an appropriate fetchland (x16 in deck), and a second land (19x in deck if you take away the first) to have an effective 2nd turn victory. The chances of having just the rit and doomsday in the opening hand are about 15% (which doesn't really even sound right, considering how often it happens :wink3:)
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"A question well served: 'Is silence like a fever?'" - Dream Theater, The Silent Man
Well, let's put it this way. I've got a Vintage Doomsday deck in MWS that only needs a Dark Rit (4x in deck), a Doomdsay (4x in deck), either an underground sea or an appropriate fetchland (x16 in deck), and a second land (19x in deck if you take away the first) to have an effective 2nd turn victory. The chances of having just the rit and doomsday in the opening hand are about 15% (which doesn't really even sound right, considering how often it happens :wink3:)
your talking about a two card combo, this is a 5 card combo, much harder to draw
It's actually closer to 16% (15.9), but that doesn't include mulligans, and the deck runs card drawing. If you can draw a total of 10 cards by turn 2, which isn't all that hard to do, and mulligan no land hands, you go up to about 30%.
Keep in mind, though, that its a lot easier to have two seperate cards than two copies of the same card.
I was thinking about the Red Shoal solo. Totally forgot about the implications in multiples. The same could have been said about multiple Basking Rootwallas and a Rites of Initiation in Odyssey Block but I'm sure we have our reasons not to fear that combo all that much.
I was thinking about the Red Shoal solo. Totally forgot about the implications in multiples. The same could have been said about multiple Basking Rootwallas and a Rites of Initiation in Odyssey Block but I'm sure we have our reasons not to fear that combo all that much.
We didn't fear it because it doesn't work. The Rootwallas aren't in play when the Rites resolves, thus don't gain the bonus.
We didn't fear it because it doesn't work. The Rootwallas aren't in play when the Rites resolves, thus don't gain the bonus.
Maybe I should have added a *sarcasm*. The point I'm trying to make is that the idea of this -first turn- combo is completely ridiculous. Are you really going to put in all these "uber" targets for the Shoal and expect this thing to even theoretically go off? Obviously not.
I'm not saying that this card is bad, but the combo's viability has been entirely blown out of proportion. I think that the true use of these cards to even get close to this kind of combo utility will be as a dual-natured discard outlet and utlitity for a reanimator deck. You get the big bonus and the free discard outlet for your dudes.
I think that the true use of these cards to even get close to this kind of combo utility will be as a dual-natured discard outlet and utlitity for a reanimator deck
To restate, shoals RFG the card, you cant use them as discard, otherwise they'd be definate money rares.
Keep in mind that channel-fireball was banned because of first turn kills - and that required 4 cards at least. Yeah, this requires more, but if it works as advertised it will show up at states in some weird way.
Banned? Last time I checked, you can still use Mountain, Black Lotus, Channel and Fireball in type 1, nothing is banned...and Channel's restricted NOT because of a first-turn Fireball kill (there's TONS of first-turn kills in type 1: Tolarian Academy/Mox Sapphire/Grim Monolith/Power Artifact/Braingeyser is the one I'm most familiar with) but because of how unbelievably broken the card is in general.
the blue shoal will have a hard time countering the red shoal, what are they going to pitch?
the first turn kill is not what the deck is going to be setup around, its more likely the deck is going to aim for a 3rd of 4th turn kill, but will run the 1 drop hasters for the odd time that it will be able to combo out turn1.
I'm guessing it shows up with Serum Powder wrath effects and draw spells, something in type two like evacuate, play raging double shoal... so probably red/blue I mean evac is in 8th and is only 5cc.
while not as likely for a 1st turn kill... doing a huge amount of dammage (spark elemental/furnace dragon discard) first turn is certainly going to make a differance in the game play. not a fan, and i see this card being banned quickly.
The answer is clearly the red shoal;
Spark Elemental/Raging Goblin + 2 of them removing furnace dragon/red myojin: attack for 19-23 on turn one (so double dragon on a goblin wouldnt win it)
He just nailed it there. I believe they can leave this possibilty in Type 2 as that is a pretty lucky draw. Overall, I think a deck built to accompany this combo is just plain bad. Nice idea to speculate on this happening but in all actuality what are you going to do with a fistful of the Myojin's and Furnace Dragons?
That's why I added Slumbering Tora in my build. It provides a backup plan in case I don't hit double Shoal, now I only wish they'd print another 8-10 CC red spirit/arcane to replace Furnace Dragon with.
P.S. Am I alone in the idea that Slumbering Tora is going to be INSANE in CHK Block Construced? CHK block so far has 2-3 artifact destruction cards, none of which are all that great. A Black Tora deck, built with 4 Toras, 4 of the new Shallow Graves, and a truckload of high-cost fatties strikes me as a SCARY deck proposition for Block season.
the blue shoal will have a hard time countering the red shoal, what are they going to pitch?
the first turn kill is not what the deck is going to be setup around, its more likely the deck is going to aim for a 3rd of 4th turn kill, but will run the 1 drop hasters for the odd time that it will be able to combo out turn1.
Actually... it's entirely possible in an old-style affinity deck if they toss Broodstar to the blue Shoal.
This matchup will still never happen outside dedicated testing to prove that both decks are ****.
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"There's a card in the set that almost died at numerous points because it carried with it the possibility of first turn kills in Standard, but it narrowly survived and still exists today."
have we collected any data on cards covered in the Rumor Mill that could kill on turn one? Just thought this would make a very interesting topic for discussion.
Spark Elemental/Raging Goblin + 2 of them removing furnace dragon/red myojin: attack for 19-23 on turn one (so double dragon on a goblin wouldnt win it)
Sales Thread
Turn 1:
Mountain
Spark Elemental
Red Shoal removing Furnace Dragon/Red Myojin
Red Shoal removing Furnace Dragon/Red Myojin
Swing for 21, oops, I win
Turn 1, Mountain, Raging Goblin, swing, play Shoal #1, remove Myojin of Infinite Rage, Shoal #2, remove Furnace Dragon/Myojin of Infinite Rage, win.
EDIT: Wow thats a lot of us having the exact same thought at the same time.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=1410
Well, let's put it this way. I've got a Vintage Doomsday deck in MWS that only needs a Dark Rit (4x in deck), a Doomdsay (4x in deck), either an underground sea or an appropriate fetchland (x16 in deck), and a second land (19x in deck if you take away the first) to have an effective 2nd turn victory. The chances of having just the rit and doomsday in the opening hand are about 15% (which doesn't really even sound right, considering how often it happens :wink3:)
your talking about a two card combo, this is a 5 card combo, much harder to draw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpgjnU7C3Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe7kkZixasc
Keep in mind, though, that its a lot easier to have two seperate cards than two copies of the same card.
We didn't fear it because it doesn't work. The Rootwallas aren't in play when the Rites resolves, thus don't gain the bonus.
Maybe I should have added a *sarcasm*. The point I'm trying to make is that the idea of this -first turn- combo is completely ridiculous. Are you really going to put in all these "uber" targets for the Shoal and expect this thing to even theoretically go off? Obviously not.
I'm not saying that this card is bad, but the combo's viability has been entirely blown out of proportion. I think that the true use of these cards to even get close to this kind of combo utility will be as a dual-natured discard outlet and utlitity for a reanimator deck. You get the big bonus and the free discard outlet for your dudes.
To restate, shoals RFG the card, you cant use them as discard, otherwise they'd be definate money rares.
the first turn kill is not what the deck is going to be setup around, its more likely the deck is going to aim for a 3rd of 4th turn kill, but will run the 1 drop hasters for the odd time that it will be able to combo out turn1.
P
He just nailed it there. I believe they can leave this possibilty in Type 2 as that is a pretty lucky draw. Overall, I think a deck built to accompany this combo is just plain bad. Nice idea to speculate on this happening but in all actuality what are you going to do with a fistful of the Myojin's and Furnace Dragons?
P.S. Am I alone in the idea that Slumbering Tora is going to be INSANE in CHK Block Construced? CHK block so far has 2-3 artifact destruction cards, none of which are all that great. A Black Tora deck, built with 4 Toras, 4 of the new Shallow Graves, and a truckload of high-cost fatties strikes me as a SCARY deck proposition for Block season.
Actually... it's entirely possible in an old-style affinity deck if they toss Broodstar to the blue Shoal.
This matchup will still never happen outside dedicated testing to prove that both decks are ****.
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