I thought the Judge program was independent from Wizards. Doesn't' the DCI handle this? I must be wrong, but I would have expected this kind of complaint to be leveled at the DCI, not Wizards.
FYI: It's not a mistake that this case was filed in California. Look up the pending Uber lawsuit or the past decisions out of the 9th Circuit against Fed Ex if you want to see some real big problems for big companies.
Those cases deal with shenanigans concerning whether someone is an employee or and independent contractor, however -- either way, it's a work-for-pay relationship. I've personally not seen someone go after a volunteer relationship like this before, so it's very interesting to me.
EDIT: Here's some reading on the question of whether you can volunteer to help a company without pay.
Judges are a community service, you can do tournaments without judges at all, but magic is big enough and theres enough judges around to make some quality standards.
Anything REL NEEDS a Judge, and I think someone posted earlier, a lv2 judge or higher at that, thats why there was the whole fiasco with the leaks and judges getting banned for it, since there were a few lv 2 judges banned, certain regions where they came from had to cancel several PPTQs, GPTs, etc, since they were the only judges in that area, completely cutting off the competitive circuit of that area for that season.
Curious about this, actually, now spare me a smiting, but is it actually against the rules to talk negatively against WOTC? Assuming you're not saying anything like 'I'll kill something something', it should fall under freedom of speech, shouldn't it? Or is that just a forum rule cause we're in a forum about a card game made by WotC? Which seems to me is pretty, idk, bias(not sure if right word), never been on a forum that had such a rule, from 4chan to Riot Games, Supercell to HiRez, threads were fine with having discussions with putting there overlords in a negative manner, as long as it wasn't just baseless banter or spamming. Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes, just seems...weird...to me.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
So here is the fundamental problem with this lawsuit: FLSA only applies when there is an agreement for employment (which can be non-verbal in many states, including California where the suit is filed). At no time would there have been any agreement between a WotC representative and a judge to be employed for most tournaments (FNM, etc.); that agreement is between the Tournament Organizer and the Judge. So if a Judge wants to complain about their compensation and/or feels they have been undercompensated then they need to be suing the Tournament Organizer. Trying to prove that WotC is the de facto employer in this case would be damn near impossible, and pointing to the judge certification program would not be enough to make someone an employer (training and/or certification does not equal employment; there is sufficient case law for this). Pointing to judge promotional cards as "compensation" would not work either; at most you could argue that WotC is a sponsor of an event, which again does not make someone an employer.
Now for bigger events that are actually being run by WotC, I would hope that the judges are contracted out appropriately (likely as independent contractors except for someone like Toby who would probably be an employee of WotC because he does other stuff) and that they follow proper wage, meal/break policies, and required compensation reporting rules. For a major corporation, this should be a no-brainer. But from where I'm sitting, this lawsuit doesn't represent them and the issues at hand don't apply.
All I see out of this is that TO's will have to tighten up how they use judges. They will either have to be employed by the tournament organizer (which is often the case, especially at brick and mortar stores that have enough tournaments) where the store employees judge events at the store, or perhaps for bigger events where the tournament organizer has to bring in additional judges (or perhaps they don't run a lot of events) then they would need to hire them under consultant/independent contractor contracts that spell out compensation for the service they provide and a 1099 would be filed. Either way, the requirements of FLSA can be easily fulfilled without the participation of WotC. I would expect this case to be thrown out.
I am genuinely fascinated. The majority of the posters are unable to distinguish the difference between the transparency of a legal framework which governs the relationship of a corporate entity and a body of people who has a direct/indirect connection with that entity's business/marketing operation, and their personal feelings about various situations ("why don't they stop to eat" , "they are adults, they know what they signed for" etc) relating this operation (FNM, GP etc.).
It's not about who eats when, but what are the rights of WotC and its subsequent contractors to an affiliated group which performs a service, albeit voluntarily.
The reason I say profits is that is where this law suit and any changes would be cutting into. Also that is the value of a company to me, its profits.
Profit is meaningless when determining the size and value of a company without revenue. It is not at all disingenuous to state a company's operating revenue when discussing the size of the company. You may care only about profit (and I can't imagine why unless you're a Hasbro shareholder), but the financial world disagrees.
Frankly, if Hasbro can't provide its workers with the minimum standards that employees in America are legally entitled to, then something is seriously wrong with their business model and they deserve to fail. Somehow I doubt that providing judges with overtime pay, travel expenses, and meal breaks will cut in to much of Hasbro's $416 million in profits, though.
While net revenue matters in some things when determining if/how well a company can take on new costs profit would be more important.
Also when comparing the profits/revenue of huge parent company that owns several subsidiaries to the potential increased costs of a single subsidiary is fairly misleading. And is certainly not how corporate would see and react to it. For that matter neither would an individual in a similar circumstance with multiple investments.
Note don't take this assessment as being pro/con WoTC/judges. I'm sure the argument still works even under the conditions I mentioned but there is absolutely no need to inflate the numbers which is what I'm getting at
I can't imagine much is going to come of this except the aforementioned Wizards distancing themselves from anything that looks like "payment" for the work judges do. Nothing good is going to come of this, is there? Either the judges somehow beat a multi-million dollar international corporation at legalese and back WOTC into a corner of having to pay more wages, suddenly restricting the amount/availability of judges (cause what company wants to pay more wages). Or WOTC wins and effectively silences any more dissenters when they ban anyone that sided with the judges.
This SOUNDS like it falls into a legal grey area, still feels like Wizards and the TOs are cheating the system, legal or not.
Being a former judge, I am still in various groups related to it.
Every time there is an event that requires judges, it gets posted, along with what compensation the TO is offering to help with the event. This goes for events all the way up to GPs.
If you dont agree with what is offered, you dont apply
It really doesn't matter if the person agreed to it or not, labor laws still supersede those agreements. In particular, the laws exist to protect people who agree to things that might be unfair to them, whether they know it or not (which might be the case here).
There are a ton of people in here that think they are lawyers that aren't.
Labor laws are extremely strict and extremely tricky to navigate. It wouldn't surprise me if the lawsuit was settled out of court because this is dangerous territory.
The relationship between judges and WotC is that they volunteer. If they do not attend events and such, no punishment is given. They do not sign any form of engagement contract, nor are they eligible to compensation or vacation days and so forth.
The funniest part is that the judges have more control over this since they can simply boycott WotC and tournaments. WotC will take action and fast and may institute this in the future. You just have to cut your losses. To mull over the past when nothing indicates they are employees, is a waste of time and money.
Being a profitable company doesn't make you evil. But being a company whose annual revenue rivals the GDP of a small country while complaining about the idea of having to pay a basic salary to the people who help you sell more product is a *****ty thing to do.
I mean, you should still get regular breaks, including meal breaks.
I still wonder how that is any issue at all.
I mean if you judge a tournament and you are hungry, you tell your other judges and walk away to eat.
As easy as that.
Obvisiously you cannot have all judges run away for lunch during a round, that cannot work.
However, if you want to eat, you just do, what exactly is the TO doing to you ? I want to see a TO that will even notice you are away for that time, and even then, its like a toilet break, theres NOTHING they can do, its totally normal to have that kind of break.
And be realistic, nobody is doing a long break to eat, its usually something quick and dirty, just like the players do aswell, shouldnt be an affaire of more than 10-15 minutes at max.
A lot of TOs will just give you stuff for free (drinks, snacks etc.) , if they do not, you pay just like any player is, shouldnt be a backbreaking issue, if in doubt make yourself some food to bring to the event, we are adult enough to do that (or should be).
I simply cannot see this being a real life issue at all, its such a joke if you cannot get yourself food/drinks if you KNOW a tournament will last 10+ hours, you really should know better (as judging such events isnt something you are forced to do, you want to do them, and you prepare to do them, it shouldnt ever be a "job" for you that you feel obligated to do, neither is it important for your income, and never should be).
Yeah, this is definitely not how it works. With good TOs (which thankfully are the only ones I've worked with up until now for Comp REL), you get your specific 1/2 round/round to recoup. If you just walk away, even by just telling other judges, it had better be a damn emergency. Putting on a GP is hard work, and a lot of judges are required, because there are a lot of players, and a lot of procedures that are imposed on judges to run events such as deck checks. For the purposes of a GP, there is a team dedicated specifically to deck checks; otherwise, it's 1-2 of the floor judges that are, depending on the staffing for the event, working at a breakneck pace to compare sheets to decks and then get decks back to their owners. If this is delayed, then the whole tournament is delayed, because those players get an extension equal to the deck check time. If you just say "hey, I gotta take a break", it's going to go over poorly, because you're impacting your fellow judges, who probably also want to take a break.
TLDR: I'm kinda rambling above, but there's a lot going on to run a GP from a judge perspective, and you can't just say "hey I'm taking a break" like you might at some other jobs. If you try that, you should expect to not be hired back.
Also, if it's a smaller event, the TO may not see you leave, but the other judges definitely will, and networking with other judges is definitely as important as networking with TOs.
Loving the people in this thread defending the ability of a global corporation with $4 billion in annual revenue to abuse volunteer labour for helping to promote their for-profit collectible card game, itself with a yearly annual revenue estimated at over $250 million. Especially the person who complained that fairly compensating judges would lead to higher tournament fees. Childish indeed.
While I am withholding my judgment on this issue simply because I do not know enough, I find this statement to basically be "screw Wizards and Hasbro!" Just because they are in a business to make money doesn't automatically make them evil. Several times moderators have said not to degenerate into personal attacks on Wizards/Hasbro or Judges. I would say that this statement falls clearly into a personal attack.
Are you out of your mind? Thanks, Thread Police, but you should work on your reading comprehension. If you get "companies who want to make money are evil!" out of "workers should have rights and be fairly compensated" then there's something seriously wrong with you.
Chill out. I'm not trying to make a personal attack. You clearly come down on the side of Judges on this argument and it has colored your viewpoint. When you do nothing but say things like "Abuse volunteer labor", reference the amount of money the company makes, then call someone childish it certainly paints a picture that you think Wizards cares more for money than these (volunteers or employees). You are certainly trying to portray Wizards/Hasbro in the worst possible light. Perhaps its a slight stretch to say that companies who care more about money than (volunteers/employees) are evil. Maybe, maybe not. Hence my statement that corporations trying to make money isn't evil.
However, you are doing a very good job of trying to attack me personally. asking "if I'm out of my mind" and "there's something seriously wrong with me" adds absolutely nothing to the debate.
/edit Ok. getting back on track here - something does strike me as odd. There are two specific points on the judges side that I find curious. #1 is the compensation. That's pretty touchy and I don't think I'm qualified to answer. #2 though, I find very odd. If they are specifically calling out the need for breaks and food, I do agree with this. Needing to stop and eat, especially for someone with wacky blood sugar can be important. However, wouldn't this fall on the TO instead of Wizards? Aren't they the ones directing the judges time?
I volunteer yearly for a 2 day bike ride from Houston to Austin and there are certainly times where we work long hours. We start at 5 AM Saturday morning and I usually don't finish until 10 PM on Sunday evening. In organizing these events though, I am always certain that we have enough volunteers that we don't need people to literally be working throughout the entire event. Is this a case where TO's are not getting enough judges and there aren't enough hands to do the heavy lifting?
It's got the same premise as these judges have: volunteers helping out to maintain and moderate a healthy community. It started with two guys and ended up turning into a class-action lawsuit which was settled for 15 mil.
Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
There seems to be a pretty big misconception floating around in this thread that judges continuing to judge means WotC is free to do what it wants. That's simply not how the law works. Illegal or grossly unfair contracts can be rescinded by a court, even if the exploited party fulfilled their end. The fact that a domestic abuse victim did not leave the relationship is not a defense for the abuser. If anything WotC (Hasbro) is more culpable because they've had so long to rectify the situation and never did so.
So here is the fundamental problem with this lawsuit: FLSA only applies when there is an agreement for employment (which can be non-verbal in many states, including California where the suit is filed). At no time would there have been any agreement between a WotC representative and a judge to be employed for most tournaments (FNM, etc.); that agreement is between the Tournament Organizer and the Judge. So if a Judge wants to complain about their compensation and/or feels they have been undercompensated then they need to be suing the Tournament Organizer. Trying to prove that WotC is the de facto employer in this case would be damn near impossible, and pointing to the judge certification program would not be enough to make someone an employer (training and/or certification does not equal employment; there is sufficient case law for this). Pointing to judge promotional cards as "compensation" would not work either; at most you could argue that WotC is a sponsor of an event, which again does not make someone an employer.
Now for bigger events that are actually being run by WotC, I would hope that the judges are contracted out appropriately (likely as independent contractors except for someone like Toby who would probably be an employee of WotC because he does other stuff) and that they follow proper wage, meal/break policies, and required compensation reporting rules. For a major corporation, this should be a no-brainer. But from where I'm sitting, this lawsuit doesn't represent them and the issues at hand don't apply.
All I see out of this is that TO's will have to tighten up how they use judges. They will either have to be employed by the tournament organizer (which is often the case, especially at brick and mortar stores that have enough tournaments) where the store employees judge events at the store, or perhaps for bigger events where the tournament organizer has to bring in additional judges (or perhaps they don't run a lot of events) then they would need to hire them under consultant/independent contractor contracts that spell out compensation for the service they provide and a 1099 would be filed. Either way, the requirements of FLSA can be easily fulfilled without the participation of WotC. I would expect this case to be thrown out.
This. Anyone in this thread that thinks WotC did something wrong needs to read this.
Being a former judge, I am still in various groups related to it.
Every time there is an event that requires judges, it gets posted, along with what compensation the TO is offering to help with the event. This goes for events all the way up to GPs.
If you dont agree with what is offered, you dont apply
It really doesn't matter if the person agreed to it or not, labor laws still supersede those agreements. In particular, the laws exist to protect people who agree to things that might be unfair to them, whether they know it or not (which might be the case here).
There seems to be a pretty big misconception floating around in this thread that judges continuing to judge means WotC is free to do what it wants. That's simply not how the law works. Illegal or grossly unfair contracts can be rescinded by a court, even if the exploited party fulfilled their end. The fact that a domestic abuse victim did not leave the relationship is not a defense for the abuser. If anything WotC (Hasbro) is more culpable because they've had so long to rectify the situation and never did so.
Read the spoilered text above. Any and all agreements to work as a judge happen between the judge and the tournament organizer. The only tournaments that I'm aware of where the tournament organizer is actually Wizards are the Pro Tours themselves although I believe that Worlds and the World Magic Cup might be run directly as well. They are going after the wrong people.
Isn't WotC just the entity that certifies judges and makes rules for TO's. I don't know of any other certification board that would be held liable for lost wages if one or all of their certified individuals were not treated fairly by their employers. While Wizards isn't a benign entity like a non-profit or even an union representing those it certifies, it certainly isn't an employer of judges. Heck, I know of plenty of underage judges that are fully certified, why isn't that in their lawsuit as well.
If Wizards charged judges to become certified would this make their relationship more obvious?
Why Wizards is involved, and not just the tournament organizers, is due to the nature of certification.
WoTC says the tournaments can't be sanctioned, unless you use judges certified by them. WoTC provides judges with specific uniforms they must wear. WoTC defines the nature of how the judges continue to be able to work, and even though the TO runs the event, the Judges report directly to Wizards with results.
This creates an inexorable link between the judges and WoTC. One way to look at it is that the only way a TO can run an event is if they *loan* a Wizard from WoTC directly through their judge certification program.
This is similar to other law suits where drivers were being hired as contractors, but being given uniforms, using company trucks, being told when and where to show up, and non-compete clauses - but "weren't employees." Judges use uniforms, can only work if they keep their certification good through WoTC, and can have that certification revoked at any time, and TOs MUST use this pool of judges if they want their event to be sanctioned (with specific levels, and in specific numbers). That means its not just between the TO and the judges.
Judges are a community service, you can do tournaments without judges at all, but magic is big enough and theres enough judges around to make some quality standards.
Anything REL NEEDS a Judge, and I think someone posted earlier, a lv2 judge or higher at that, thats why there was the whole fiasco with the leaks and judges getting banned for it, since there were a few lv 2 judges banned, certain regions where they came from had to cancel several PPTQs, GPTs, etc, since they were the only judges in that area, completely cutting off the competitive circuit of that area for that season.
Curious about this, actually, now spare me a smiting, but is it actually against the rules to talk negatively against WOTC? Assuming you're not saying anything like 'I'll kill something something', it should fall under freedom of speech, shouldn't it? Or is that just a forum rule cause we're in a forum about a card game made by WotC? Which seems to me is pretty, idk, bias(not sure if right word), never been on a forum that had such a rule, from 4chan to Riot Games, Supercell to HiRez, threads were fine with having discussions with putting there overlords in a negative manner, as long as it wasn't just baseless banter or spamming. Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes, just seems...weird...to me.
We're trying to maintain a civil discussion here. Talking negatively is one thing (Like, you can fully disagree with how either WOTC or the judges act in this case), but saying things like "The entitled judges" or "Those greedbags at WOTC" only cause further flaming in the end, which we try to prevent.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I'm a judge in Canada. How might this affect me? Whose law applies, American or Canadian (or both)? What about for judges in other countries that aren't the US, how could this affect them? What does Canadian law have to say about me in this situation? (Honest questions, just curious if anyone can answer any of these, preferably with sources if possible, as I have no idea what any of the answers are.)
WOTC sure sounds devoid of empathy on the subject based upon what I read on the response. And it certainly isn't as cut and dry as they claim.
I think that WOTC should have made accommodations for ensuring that these people get adequate breaks on these large events. That being said, I don't know enough about law or the judge program to really understand the situation fully.
Yet they continue to treat such judges as volunteers without any kind of remuneration apart from promo cards which might or might not have any monetary value.
I thought they stopped giving out judge rewards, because the cards they gave out were rare and unique enough that they could be considered a financial reward, thus a tacit acknowledgement that cards have financial value (something Wizards can never acknowledge).
I'm a judge in Canada. How might this affect me? Whose law applies, American or Canadian (or both)? What about for judges in other countries that aren't the US, how could this affect them? What does Canadian law have to say about me in this situation? (Honest questions, just curious if anyone can answer any of these, preferably with sources if possible, as I have no idea what any of the answers are.)
The suit is being filed in the state of California, and is subject to the laws there.
Can any judge confirm that you sign a contract that you'll work for Wizards? I'm not a judge so I got no idea.
You do not sign anything when you become a judge. Or at least I don't remember signing anything, though its possible higher levels, like 3+ sign something due to the radically different relationship between level 3+ judges and wizards.
I'm a judge in Canada. How might this affect me? Whose law applies, American or Canadian (or both)? What about for judges in other countries that aren't the US, how could this affect them? What does Canadian law have to say about me in this situation? (Honest questions, just curious if anyone can answer any of these, preferably with sources if possible, as I have no idea what any of the answers are.)
The immediate repercussions will few to none but if the judges win this suit, it will likely affect the entire US because there would be legal precedent in place, making it easy for other judges to sue on similar grounds. I can't say if wizards will also make changes for judge program globally in that event but if the judges win this case, you might find yourself having to sign a contract with wizards
FYI: It's not a mistake that this case was filed in California. Look up the pending Uber lawsuit or the past decisions out of the 9th Circuit against Fed Ex if you want to see some real big problems for big companies.
Those cases deal with shenanigans concerning whether someone is an employee or and independent contractor, however -- either way, it's a work-for-pay relationship. I've personally not seen someone go after a volunteer relationship like this before, so it's very interesting to me.
EDIT: Here's some reading on the question of whether you can volunteer to help a company without pay.
http://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp
Anything REL NEEDS a Judge, and I think someone posted earlier, a lv2 judge or higher at that, thats why there was the whole fiasco with the leaks and judges getting banned for it, since there were a few lv 2 judges banned, certain regions where they came from had to cancel several PPTQs, GPTs, etc, since they were the only judges in that area, completely cutting off the competitive circuit of that area for that season.
Curious about this, actually, now spare me a smiting, but is it actually against the rules to talk negatively against WOTC? Assuming you're not saying anything like 'I'll kill something something', it should fall under freedom of speech, shouldn't it? Or is that just a forum rule cause we're in a forum about a card game made by WotC? Which seems to me is pretty, idk, bias(not sure if right word), never been on a forum that had such a rule, from 4chan to Riot Games, Supercell to HiRez, threads were fine with having discussions with putting there overlords in a negative manner, as long as it wasn't just baseless banter or spamming. Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes, just seems...weird...to me.
Now for bigger events that are actually being run by WotC, I would hope that the judges are contracted out appropriately (likely as independent contractors except for someone like Toby who would probably be an employee of WotC because he does other stuff) and that they follow proper wage, meal/break policies, and required compensation reporting rules. For a major corporation, this should be a no-brainer. But from where I'm sitting, this lawsuit doesn't represent them and the issues at hand don't apply.
All I see out of this is that TO's will have to tighten up how they use judges. They will either have to be employed by the tournament organizer (which is often the case, especially at brick and mortar stores that have enough tournaments) where the store employees judge events at the store, or perhaps for bigger events where the tournament organizer has to bring in additional judges (or perhaps they don't run a lot of events) then they would need to hire them under consultant/independent contractor contracts that spell out compensation for the service they provide and a 1099 would be filed. Either way, the requirements of FLSA can be easily fulfilled without the participation of WotC. I would expect this case to be thrown out.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
It's not about who eats when, but what are the rights of WotC and its subsequent contractors to an affiliated group which performs a service, albeit voluntarily.
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
Also when comparing the profits/revenue of huge parent company that owns several subsidiaries to the potential increased costs of a single subsidiary is fairly misleading. And is certainly not how corporate would see and react to it. For that matter neither would an individual in a similar circumstance with multiple investments.
Note don't take this assessment as being pro/con WoTC/judges. I'm sure the argument still works even under the conditions I mentioned but there is absolutely no need to inflate the numbers which is what I'm getting at
This SOUNDS like it falls into a legal grey area, still feels like Wizards and the TOs are cheating the system, legal or not.
UBU/B Tezz ControlUB
WTempered SteelW
EDH
BWTeysa, Orzhov ScionBW
RUJhoira of the GhituRU
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
It really doesn't matter if the person agreed to it or not, labor laws still supersede those agreements. In particular, the laws exist to protect people who agree to things that might be unfair to them, whether they know it or not (which might be the case here).
I think these judges have an argument.
Labor laws are extremely strict and extremely tricky to navigate. It wouldn't surprise me if the lawsuit was settled out of court because this is dangerous territory.
The relationship between judges and WotC is that they volunteer. If they do not attend events and such, no punishment is given. They do not sign any form of engagement contract, nor are they eligible to compensation or vacation days and so forth.
The funniest part is that the judges have more control over this since they can simply boycott WotC and tournaments. WotC will take action and fast and may institute this in the future. You just have to cut your losses. To mull over the past when nothing indicates they are employees, is a waste of time and money.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
TLDR: I'm kinda rambling above, but there's a lot going on to run a GP from a judge perspective, and you can't just say "hey I'm taking a break" like you might at some other jobs. If you try that, you should expect to not be hired back.
Also, if it's a smaller event, the TO may not see you leave, but the other judges definitely will, and networking with other judges is definitely as important as networking with TOs.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Chill out. I'm not trying to make a personal attack. You clearly come down on the side of Judges on this argument and it has colored your viewpoint. When you do nothing but say things like "Abuse volunteer labor", reference the amount of money the company makes, then call someone childish it certainly paints a picture that you think Wizards cares more for money than these (volunteers or employees). You are certainly trying to portray Wizards/Hasbro in the worst possible light. Perhaps its a slight stretch to say that companies who care more about money than (volunteers/employees) are evil. Maybe, maybe not. Hence my statement that corporations trying to make money isn't evil.
However, you are doing a very good job of trying to attack me personally. asking "if I'm out of my mind" and "there's something seriously wrong with me" adds absolutely nothing to the debate.
/edit Ok. getting back on track here - something does strike me as odd. There are two specific points on the judges side that I find curious. #1 is the compensation. That's pretty touchy and I don't think I'm qualified to answer. #2 though, I find very odd. If they are specifically calling out the need for breaks and food, I do agree with this. Needing to stop and eat, especially for someone with wacky blood sugar can be important. However, wouldn't this fall on the TO instead of Wizards? Aren't they the ones directing the judges time?
I volunteer yearly for a 2 day bike ride from Houston to Austin and there are certainly times where we work long hours. We start at 5 AM Saturday morning and I usually don't finish until 10 PM on Sunday evening. In organizing these events though, I am always certain that we have enough volunteers that we don't need people to literally be working throughout the entire event. Is this a case where TO's are not getting enough judges and there aren't enough hands to do the heavy lifting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_Community_Leader_Program#Department_of_Labor_investigation
It's got the same premise as these judges have: volunteers helping out to maintain and moderate a healthy community. It started with two guys and ended up turning into a class-action lawsuit which was settled for 15 mil.
judges v wizards
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Hue.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
This. Anyone in this thread that thinks WotC did something wrong needs to read this.
Read the spoilered text above. Any and all agreements to work as a judge happen between the judge and the tournament organizer. The only tournaments that I'm aware of where the tournament organizer is actually Wizards are the Pro Tours themselves although I believe that Worlds and the World Magic Cup might be run directly as well. They are going after the wrong people.
If Wizards charged judges to become certified would this make their relationship more obvious?
WoTC says the tournaments can't be sanctioned, unless you use judges certified by them. WoTC provides judges with specific uniforms they must wear. WoTC defines the nature of how the judges continue to be able to work, and even though the TO runs the event, the Judges report directly to Wizards with results.
This creates an inexorable link between the judges and WoTC. One way to look at it is that the only way a TO can run an event is if they *loan* a Wizard from WoTC directly through their judge certification program.
This is similar to other law suits where drivers were being hired as contractors, but being given uniforms, using company trucks, being told when and where to show up, and non-compete clauses - but "weren't employees." Judges use uniforms, can only work if they keep their certification good through WoTC, and can have that certification revoked at any time, and TOs MUST use this pool of judges if they want their event to be sanctioned (with specific levels, and in specific numbers). That means its not just between the TO and the judges.
Custom Set
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hu9uNBSUt92PwGhvexYlwFvsh6_SJBlEEIUV3H9_XyU/edit?usp=sharing
We're trying to maintain a civil discussion here. Talking negatively is one thing (Like, you can fully disagree with how either WOTC or the judges act in this case), but saying things like "The entitled judges" or "Those greedbags at WOTC" only cause further flaming in the end, which we try to prevent.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I think that WOTC should have made accommodations for ensuring that these people get adequate breaks on these large events. That being said, I don't know enough about law or the judge program to really understand the situation fully.
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I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
I thought they stopped giving out judge rewards, because the cards they gave out were rare and unique enough that they could be considered a financial reward, thus a tacit acknowledgement that cards have financial value (something Wizards can never acknowledge).
The suit is being filed in the state of California, and is subject to the laws there.
The immediate repercussions will few to none but if the judges win this suit, it will likely affect the entire US because there would be legal precedent in place, making it easy for other judges to sue on similar grounds. I can't say if wizards will also make changes for judge program globally in that event but if the judges win this case, you might find yourself having to sign a contract with wizards