Judges do not perform charitable work and do, in fact, displace labor that otherwise would need to be paid for these tournaments to be operational (Referees in any professional sports league are paid)
If Hasbro actually tries to argue that judges are volunteers they will admit in court to a massive violation of labor law.
Exactly. Judges, especially higher level, have exclusive, rare, specialized skills. They deserve to be justly compensated and treated for performing these unique skills.
Of course from a billion dollar company's standpoint, them saving the 1% of their profits to compensate the "volunteers" is out of the question. When fact is such specialized work should be paid to employees or contractors. Even by their press releases, they keep spouting about how much they care about community this and that. Not surprisingly, since this community costs nothing to them to maintain, while this community does much of the labor for free and lightens their payroll.
It's easy to miss the perspective on this as a non competitive player, while I wouldn't really consider sitting around at FNM helping with rules questions "work" I would do so for large scale events, requiring a lot of organisation, planning, travel, large shifts with little breaks, the constant scrutiny of the event organizers and even other Judges is a LOT closer to "A real Job" than most things out there. Expecting basic rights that other people get (And a lot of VOLUNTEERS for organisations get, for example, charity store workers.) is not only legally justified, but to be expected. The whole reason they want to be recognized as "Employee's" is due to the legal framework protecting Employee's instead of freelance/contract work. If a charity store volunteer is counted as an "Employee" why not somebody working dual 12 hour shifts helping to organise a 3000 player + event?
So here's what you are saying:
1. Little league coaches and referees have to show up, watch the kids and make sure they have a good game and get home to their parents in one piece. This is something done for "the love of the game."
2. Major League Ball as a referee and coach, people are compensated and have the capacity to have good working relations with expectations to breaks and so forth as contractors or employees.
3. Minor leagues, people are considered volunteers. To reach the Major Leagues you have to go through the Minor Leagues. However, there's no contractor relationship and therefore employee relationship. People want compensation and regular working systems.
When placed into the league of baseball, it seems the "system" works at the Little League/Store Level just fine and doesn't need to change. However, that the Minor League is a really bad system for judges while the Major Leagues have some similar issues but is less gruesome since WotC runs them.
Early on the "system worked" as the system has outgrown itself and made to meet more demands of the company and the players. There needs to be a renegotiation of the system to meet new expectations. Most of the judges are not young adults, they are older adults with families and responsibilities as well. And frankly, having full time paid judges at the higher tier levels seems to be a good way to go.
Many judges I knew used the revenue from foils to pay for traveling. Compensating judges with foils for participating in tournaments might have always been shady legal territory - Wizards probably didn't have to pay taxes on salary for those judges since they weren't receiving monetary compensation. I could not fathom every judge being able to continue to commit to judging if reasonable compensation is no longer expected.
There still has to be some incentive (besides this gold-star) to maintain the flock of judges.
I feel that the system worked for a very long time well, whenever Judges were irregulars with day jobs and worked for your local stores or owned the store. This has changed where the professionalization of the game has created a new esport. Magic is an esport. This means I expect change to smooth out the name of the game. The game can no longer require themselves to avail themselves of personal responsibility. This is not a knock at Wizards of the Coast, rather that the system has mutated to a level that they no longer control it well enough and this is rather typical because the system worked for so long and people came through the system to work for the company and others such as Sheldon Menery have been able to become small celebrities in the system through things such as novel invention of a new format.
I feel that the judge system needs to be seen more as referees at different tiered levels. This is an esport now, and needs to be treated as one with better coverage. We're still in the early days of Magic becoming much wider. Let's be honest, we're seeing an actual cosplay community being built up. We're seeing new directions taken with the production and increasing the amount of product created per year.
At first I was along the "But they're volunteers" but iscalar's explanation and some routine adjustments to look at similar systems. We see a good comparison and see a fractured system.
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I agree with the lawsuit. Being a judge at an FNM or any non-sactioned event is voluntary work because a store owner, though being for-profit and possibly gaining money from the casual event, could run without a judge. A store owner needs to do whatever is necessary for the tournament to feel legit to its patrons otherwise they may not participate. So a store owner should have some level of authority rules-wise (Judge Lv.1 or Lv. 2 should suffice). However, large scale tournaments are grueling for players let alone judges. Tournaments cannot be run without judges. If all the judges stopped doing that work then WotC's alternative would be to contract employees that are specifically trained to do that job - which is what Lv. 5 Judges are supposed to do anyways. If you have to substitute non-paid judges for paid employees in order for something to function, that alone says something.
Sure, the judges get those nifty Judge Promos, but would you work the way they do, study the way they do, and train the way they do, for a piece of cardboard you can sell at around $100? That's more of a bonus than anything. Hell, they give their employees a Happy Holidays Promo as a gift. But that's not the employees compensation for the work they do at the company. Main and official tournaments that can't be run without a Judge is one aspect of the WotC company. It's not only marketing, production, finance, human resources, etc. In any case, Judges serve as a service employee which deals with helping consumers. So it is an aspect of labor from an employer's perspective. Official WotC tournaments are sanctioned events from the company which they make bank on so the Judges aren't volunteers. The fact that they have to bring up not getting breaks to rest or even eat during a 12hr+ shift is pretty alarming. Maybe if they were handled better it probably wouldn't've have gotten to this. It does seem like abusing behavior.
I find that the lawyers are gonna have a hard time convincing a jury that being a Judge at something like a Magic: the Gathering Tournament is anything than volunteering your time to a hobby. They should've straight up went to a judge. A judge would be able to understand the infractions in law given the explanations from the lawsuit, which is pretty well defined. So either the lawyer knows his Magic (kudos for him 'cause then he'd have the bank to actually buy expensive cards) or learned the aspect pretty well. If they fail the lawsuit it's because of seeking a jury.
I'm not a lawyer whatsoever but if I were a juror in this case, that's what I would've thought about given the lawsuit.
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I am not a judge and don't know any judges so I don't really have a dog in this fight or an opinion on which way it should go.
That being said, I am not sure of the accuracy of some of the legal things being claimed. I work for the government. Where I work we have unpaid interns and volunteers. They have to show up on time and do work. If they don't we let them go. They have security badges, computer accounts, and scheduled breaks. They have to follow a code of conduct, dress code, etc. They don't get paid. Their only compensation is the experience they gain, a letter of recommendation if they do well, and maybe a few free lunches. If they don't like us, they are free to turn in their badge and quit at any time.
This is pretty common and totally legal because they fit the criteria here: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm
Judges definitely deserve fair compensation for their work but they sound like even less of employees than our interns and, not being a lawyer, I don't understand what the distinction would be.
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Who are volunteers? Based on the Supreme Court decisions and the federal Department of Labor interpretations, volunteers would be those who:
1. work without an expectation or receipt of compensation or benefits,
2. are not economically dependent on this position,
3. work on a less than full-time basis,
4. perform services of the kind typically associated with volunteer work (charitable purposes, such as help to minister to the comfort of the sick, elderly, indigent, infirm, or handicapped, and retarded or disadvantaged youth) and 5. who would not be displacing any paid workers.
A general rule emerges based on the criteria above: a “for profit” business (as opposed to a charity or a government employer) cannot use unpaid volunteers.
Judges do not perform charitable work and do, in fact, displace labor that otherwise would need to be paid for these tournaments to be operational (Referees in any professional sports league are paid)
If Hasbro actually tries to argue that judges are volunteers they will admit in court to a massive violation of labor law.
This is where I'm not so sure. with point 1 Wizards is in a position to say that the TO's have the discretion to give compensation but they have no expectation of it from wizards directly. And with point 5 there are no paid workers to displace. It's far from a slam dunk, I feel.
I'm also rather concerned about what happens to these judges - I can't see wotc letting them stay on the roster, and I know an L2 and a couple L1s who have said "I have a strong opinion but I don't think it's safe to say anything." or something along those lines. Whatever happens, it's probably going to get ugly.
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Do you actually need a judge for an FNM? I spent years drafting every Friday after work without an "official" judge being announced. Any question was just raised to the friendly store owner or some senior player not involved in the pod and everything went always fine.
Two things i think will happen if the judges win and are incorporated as employee of wizards:
1. Half of the actual judges will be "Fired", specially all the judges outside USA, Europe and Japan (The three biggest magic community in my opinion). I cant see the three local judges that my country have being incorporated as employees since wizards has no presence here.
2. Tournaments entry costs and, in the worst scenario, Magic products prices will go up. For example, for a pre release or Game day in my country, we would have to contact wizards to send us an available judge, and that have extra expenses that i could foresaw none of my local stores will be willing to pay.
I think they need to focus on the organisations that are running the GP's. They have been jacking up the prices to huge amounts yet the quality of the events have been going backwards. I assume wizards outsourced the running of gp's thinking that these organisations would invest in technologies and hire appropriate staff to run these events and the wizards could focus on what it does best and make cards. So far gp's I go to are still running 90's technology. The airline lets me check in online or a self serve station yet at GP Melbourne the queue to sign up for an event was over an hour and half long for the one individual at a desk to register me for a side event. I would not mind so much paying $90 for a constructed GP if I knew it was because judges were getting paid and the companies were investing in improving their service with new technologies or something. Right now these companies are charging whatever they want and raking it in because the demand is so high. Wizards might not be running these events but they should have regulations set for these organizers such as the requirement to pay at least the minimum wage for the country. These events are for profit and people working at these events including the judges need to be paid a fair wage. But not only this Wizards should be actively working with the event organisers to improve the quality of service.
I think what might happen is that if Wizards is forced to make judges "Employees" then it makes no sense for Wizards not to completely take over the running of GP's entirely and cutting out the TO's. This will allow Wizards to have better control over the judge programs and organize a professional Judge Program run by Wizards of the Coast.
Now who this will affect the most is the TO's. They are going to be hit hard by this because either Wizards will be forced to run the gp's themselves or they will have to make sure TO's give employment rights to TO's.
I think the best case scenario is do what High School sports officials do. Each state has different rules but essentially if you want to become an official for basketball in California you join a regional Officiating Association. This Association handles your pay and collects payments from schools when a game official is needed. They handle your schedule, and pay. These Associations are Non-Profits because they exist solely to be able to get running they're organization so school can have they're high school games officiated. This allows Officials to be contracted and not employees, yet if they get hurt during a game the organization handles medical expenses. These Associations have to follow the Refereee training and rules guidelines set forth by the CIF (California Interscholastic Federation) and they follow the guidelines of the NHAA (National High School Association).
This will take the complete oversight of judges away from Wizards of the coast but for an association to be recognized as an Official Judge the Organization has to be Certified by Wizards of the Coast.
Does anyone see an issue with doing something like that?
It will essentially create more jobs, and allow for people to become judges a lot easier
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Loving the people in this thread defending the ability of a global corporation with $4 billion in annual revenue to abuse volunteer labour for helping to promote their for-profit collectible card game, itself with a yearly annual revenue estimated at over $250 million. Especially the person who complained that fairly compensating judges would lead to higher tournament fees. Childish indeed.
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Loving the people in this thread defending the ability of a global corporation with $4 billion in annual revenue to abuse volunteer labour for helping to promote their for-profit collectible card game, itself with a yearly annual revenue estimated at over $250 million. Especially the person who complained that fairly compensating judges would lead to higher tournament fees. Childish indeed.
While I am withholding my judgment on this issue simply because I do not know enough, I find this statement to basically be "screw Wizards and Hasbro!" Just because they are in a business to make money doesn't automatically make them evil. Several times moderators have said not to degenerate into personal attacks on Wizards/Hasbro or Judges. I would say that this statement falls clearly into a personal attack.
Sadly, there won't be any real winners in this suit. Both sides are going to fling themselves into the mud with the end result that everyone winds up dirty. Wizards will come off looking like it doesn't care about those judging those events, and the judges will come off looking like bent-out-of-shape volunteers (or employees, depending on the outcome of the suit) that were looking to pick a fight. It's a sad day all around while the TO's (at least to this point) get off completely free of this mess. At least so far as I've seen, they should be at least as neck deep in this issue as Wizards is.
This reads to me like a bunch of Judges getting mistreated by various TOs and deciding to sue WOTC for some combination of deeper pockets and higher visibility.
It's the kind of thing that feels like it probably shouldn't win, but even if it doesn't I hope the visibility improves conditions overall.
While I am withholding my judgment on this issue simply because I do not know enough, I find this statement to basically be "screw Wizards and Hasbro!" Just because they are in a business to make money doesn't automatically make them evil. Several times moderators have said not to degenerate into personal attacks on Wizards/Hasbro or Judges. I would say that this statement falls clearly into a personal attack.
Sadly, there won't be any real winners in this suit. Both sides are going to fling themselves into the mud with the end result that everyone winds up dirty. Wizards will come off looking like it doesn't care about those judging those events, and the judges will come off looking like bent-out-of-shape volunteers (or employees, depending on the outcome of the suit) that were looking to pick a fight. It's a sad day all around while the TO's (at least to this point) get off completely free of this mess. At least so far as I've seen, they should be at least as neck deep in this issue as Wizards is.
I agree, but Wizards is the only one who has the power to tell all the TOs out there to treat judges better.
Being a former judge, I am still in various groups related to it.
Every time there is an event that requires judges, it gets posted, along with what compensation the TO is offering to help with the event. This goes for events all the way up to GPs.
If you dont agree with what is offered, you dont apply
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Being a former judge, I am still in various groups related to it.
Every time there is an event that requires judges, it gets posted, along with what compensation the TO is offering to help with the event. This goes for events all the way up to GPs.
If you dont agree with what is offered, you dont apply
I mean, you should still get regular breaks, including meal breaks.
But yes, assuming that most of the time the Judge knows in advance the hours they are going to work and the pay they are going to receive for it, suing for overtime on top of the agreed upon amount seems bad.
Loving the people in this thread defending the ability of a global corporation with $4 billion in annual revenue to abuse volunteer labour for helping to promote their for-profit collectible card game, itself with a yearly annual revenue estimated at over $250 million. Especially the person who complained that fairly compensating judges would lead to higher tournament fees. Childish indeed.
While I am withholding my judgment on this issue simply because I do not know enough, I find this statement to basically be "screw Wizards and Hasbro!" Just because they are in a business to make money doesn't automatically make them evil. Several times moderators have said not to degenerate into personal attacks on Wizards/Hasbro or Judges. I would say that this statement falls clearly into a personal attack.
Are you out of your mind? Thanks, Thread Police, but you should work on your reading comprehension. If you get "companies who want to make money are evil!" out of "workers should have rights and be fairly compensated" then there's something seriously wrong with you.
Loving the people in this thread defending the ability of a global corporation with $4 billion in annual revenue to abuse volunteer labour for helping to promote their for-profit collectible card game, itself with a yearly annual revenue estimated at over $250 million. Especially the person who complained that fairly compensating judges would lead to higher tournament fees. Childish indeed.
While I am withholding my judgment on this issue simply because I do not know enough, I find this statement to basically be "screw Wizards and Hasbro!" Just because they are in a business to make money doesn't automatically make them evil. Several times moderators have said not to degenerate into personal attacks on Wizards/Hasbro or Judges. I would say that this statement falls clearly into a personal attack.
Are you out of your mind? Thanks, Thread Police, but you should work on your reading comprehension. If you get "companies who want to make money are evil!" out of "workers should have rights and be fairly compensated" then there's something seriously wrong with you.
Then what was your point of putting in very large numbers? Also putting in revenue rather than profit to make the numbers seem even larger? If your stance was on "workers rights" then why not talk about that rather than spend most of it talking about the company involved?
Then what was your point of putting in very large numbers? Also putting in revenue rather than profit to make the numbers seem even larger? If your stance was on "workers rights" then why not talk about that rather than spend most of it talking about the company involved?
I'm talking about people in this thread who care more about a massive international company than the wellbeing of their workers. As for why I used revenue, uh, perhaps because revenue is a standard measure of a company's value? Like everywhere? Is Hasbro trying to "make the numbers seem even larger" in their quarterly reports when they state revenues? Sorry you decided to interpret my factual statements about Hasbro's revenue as demonizing them, but that's entirely on you. My point was that Hasbro is a large corporation that can afford to hire judges on as proper employees.
I mean, you should still get regular breaks, including meal breaks.
I still wonder how that is any issue at all.
I mean if you judge a tournament and you are hungry, you tell your other judges and walk away to eat.
As easy as that.
Obvisiously you cannot have all judges run away for lunch during a round, that cannot work.
However, if you want to eat, you just do, what exactly is the TO doing to you ? I want to see a TO that will even notice you are away for that time, and even then, its like a toilet break, theres NOTHING they can do, its totally normal to have that kind of break.
And be realistic, nobody is doing a long break to eat, its usually something quick and dirty, just like the players do aswell, shouldnt be an affaire of more than 10-15 minutes at max.
A lot of TOs will just give you stuff for free (drinks, snacks etc.) , if they do not, you pay just like any player is, shouldnt be a backbreaking issue, if in doubt make yourself some food to bring to the event, we are adult enough to do that (or should be).
I simply cannot see this being a real life issue at all, its such a joke if you cannot get yourself food/drinks if you KNOW a tournament will last 10+ hours, you really should know better (as judging such events isnt something you are forced to do, you want to do them, and you prepare to do them, it shouldnt ever be a "job" for you that you feel obligated to do, neither is it important for your income, and never should be).
Then what was your point of putting in very large numbers? Also putting in revenue rather than profit to make the numbers seem even larger? If your stance was on "workers rights" then why not talk about that rather than spend most of it talking about the company involved?
I'm talking about people in this thread who care more about a massive international company than the wellbeing of their workers. As for why I used revenue, uh, perhaps because revenue is a standard measure of a company's value? Like everywhere? Is Hasbro trying to "make the numbers seem even larger" in their quarterly reports when they state revenues? Sorry you decided to interpret my factual statements about Hasbro's revenue as demonizing them, but that's entirely on you. My point was that Hasbro is a large corporation that can afford to hire judges on as proper employees.
Your statement is an emotional persuasive statement that is trying to use or misuse facts. It is not a factual statement.
The reason I say profits is that is where this law suit and any changes would be cutting into. Also that is the value of a company to me, its profits.
I think a lot of people are missing the point that's been raised several times, which is that the type of relationship currently in existence between Wizards and the judges might not be legal. Saying "they knew they were volunteers" isn't relevant. A person cannot legally consent to being illegally exploited. In the case where it happens, the person who has been exploited is never held as the responsible party; it's the company hiring.
I'm actually just a tiny bit worried that this could spell the end of organized play eventually. It's hard to imagine Wizards paying wages to judges. It's possible that the competitive tournament system we have known and loved for decades has been built on top of a fragile employment structure overdue for collapse.
The reason I say profits is that is where this law suit and any changes would be cutting into. Also that is the value of a company to me, its profits.
Profit is meaningless when determining the size and value of a company without revenue. It is not at all disingenuous to state a company's operating revenue when discussing the size of the company. You may care only about profit (and I can't imagine why unless you're a Hasbro shareholder), but the financial world disagrees.
Frankly, if Hasbro can't provide its workers with the minimum standards that employees in America are legally entitled to, then something is seriously wrong with their business model and they deserve to fail. Somehow I doubt that providing judges with overtime pay, travel expenses, and meal breaks will cut in to much of Hasbro's $416 million in profits, though.
I'm actually just a tiny bit worried that this could spell the end of organized play eventually. It's hard to imagine Wizards paying wages to judges. It's possible that the competitive tournament system we have known and loved for decades has been built on top of a fragile employment structure overdue for collapse.
I sincerely doubt this will happen. The competitive scene is far too important a promotional tool for Magic for them to abandon it just because they have to give judges overtime. If they lose this case I suspect they'll just cut costs elsewhere to compensate.
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Exactly. Judges, especially higher level, have exclusive, rare, specialized skills. They deserve to be justly compensated and treated for performing these unique skills.
Of course from a billion dollar company's standpoint, them saving the 1% of their profits to compensate the "volunteers" is out of the question. When fact is such specialized work should be paid to employees or contractors. Even by their press releases, they keep spouting about how much they care about community this and that. Not surprisingly, since this community costs nothing to them to maintain, while this community does much of the labor for free and lightens their payroll.
........................
So here's what you are saying:
1. Little league coaches and referees have to show up, watch the kids and make sure they have a good game and get home to their parents in one piece. This is something done for "the love of the game."
2. Major League Ball as a referee and coach, people are compensated and have the capacity to have good working relations with expectations to breaks and so forth as contractors or employees.
3. Minor leagues, people are considered volunteers. To reach the Major Leagues you have to go through the Minor Leagues. However, there's no contractor relationship and therefore employee relationship. People want compensation and regular working systems.
When placed into the league of baseball, it seems the "system" works at the Little League/Store Level just fine and doesn't need to change. However, that the Minor League is a really bad system for judges while the Major Leagues have some similar issues but is less gruesome since WotC runs them.
Early on the "system worked" as the system has outgrown itself and made to meet more demands of the company and the players. There needs to be a renegotiation of the system to meet new expectations. Most of the judges are not young adults, they are older adults with families and responsibilities as well. And frankly, having full time paid judges at the higher tier levels seems to be a good way to go.
I was reading this thread about Judge Foils:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/566759-changes-to-mtg-judge-promo-distribution-no-more
I feel that the system worked for a very long time well, whenever Judges were irregulars with day jobs and worked for your local stores or owned the store. This has changed where the professionalization of the game has created a new esport. Magic is an esport. This means I expect change to smooth out the name of the game. The game can no longer require themselves to avail themselves of personal responsibility. This is not a knock at Wizards of the Coast, rather that the system has mutated to a level that they no longer control it well enough and this is rather typical because the system worked for so long and people came through the system to work for the company and others such as Sheldon Menery have been able to become small celebrities in the system through things such as novel invention of a new format.
I feel that the judge system needs to be seen more as referees at different tiered levels. This is an esport now, and needs to be treated as one with better coverage. We're still in the early days of Magic becoming much wider. Let's be honest, we're seeing an actual cosplay community being built up. We're seeing new directions taken with the production and increasing the amount of product created per year.
At first I was along the "But they're volunteers" but iscalar's explanation and some routine adjustments to look at similar systems. We see a good comparison and see a fractured system.
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Sure, the judges get those nifty Judge Promos, but would you work the way they do, study the way they do, and train the way they do, for a piece of cardboard you can sell at around $100? That's more of a bonus than anything. Hell, they give their employees a Happy Holidays Promo as a gift. But that's not the employees compensation for the work they do at the company. Main and official tournaments that can't be run without a Judge is one aspect of the WotC company. It's not only marketing, production, finance, human resources, etc. In any case, Judges serve as a service employee which deals with helping consumers. So it is an aspect of labor from an employer's perspective. Official WotC tournaments are sanctioned events from the company which they make bank on so the Judges aren't volunteers. The fact that they have to bring up not getting breaks to rest or even eat during a 12hr+ shift is pretty alarming. Maybe if they were handled better it probably wouldn't've have gotten to this. It does seem like abusing behavior.
I find that the lawyers are gonna have a hard time convincing a jury that being a Judge at something like a Magic: the Gathering Tournament is anything than volunteering your time to a hobby. They should've straight up went to a judge. A judge would be able to understand the infractions in law given the explanations from the lawsuit, which is pretty well defined. So either the lawyer knows his Magic (kudos for him 'cause then he'd have the bank to actually buy expensive cards) or learned the aspect pretty well. If they fail the lawsuit it's because of seeking a jury.
I'm not a lawyer whatsoever but if I were a juror in this case, that's what I would've thought about given the lawsuit.
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That being said, I am not sure of the accuracy of some of the legal things being claimed. I work for the government. Where I work we have unpaid interns and volunteers. They have to show up on time and do work. If they don't we let them go. They have security badges, computer accounts, and scheduled breaks. They have to follow a code of conduct, dress code, etc. They don't get paid. Their only compensation is the experience they gain, a letter of recommendation if they do well, and maybe a few free lunches. If they don't like us, they are free to turn in their badge and quit at any time.
This is pretty common and totally legal because they fit the criteria here: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm
Judges definitely deserve fair compensation for their work but they sound like even less of employees than our interns and, not being a lawyer, I don't understand what the distinction would be.
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That falls in line with what I'd said - if you're an employee of the company you can't volunteer for that same company
This is where I'm not so sure. with point 1 Wizards is in a position to say that the TO's have the discretion to give compensation but they have no expectation of it from wizards directly. And with point 5 there are no paid workers to displace. It's far from a slam dunk, I feel.
I'm also rather concerned about what happens to these judges - I can't see wotc letting them stay on the roster, and I know an L2 and a couple L1s who have said "I have a strong opinion but I don't think it's safe to say anything." or something along those lines. Whatever happens, it's probably going to get ugly.
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1. Half of the actual judges will be "Fired", specially all the judges outside USA, Europe and Japan (The three biggest magic community in my opinion). I cant see the three local judges that my country have being incorporated as employees since wizards has no presence here.
2. Tournaments entry costs and, in the worst scenario, Magic products prices will go up. For example, for a pre release or Game day in my country, we would have to contact wizards to send us an available judge, and that have extra expenses that i could foresaw none of my local stores will be willing to pay.
Now who this will affect the most is the TO's. They are going to be hit hard by this because either Wizards will be forced to run the gp's themselves or they will have to make sure TO's give employment rights to TO's.
I think the best case scenario is do what High School sports officials do. Each state has different rules but essentially if you want to become an official for basketball in California you join a regional Officiating Association. This Association handles your pay and collects payments from schools when a game official is needed. They handle your schedule, and pay. These Associations are Non-Profits because they exist solely to be able to get running they're organization so school can have they're high school games officiated. This allows Officials to be contracted and not employees, yet if they get hurt during a game the organization handles medical expenses. These Associations have to follow the Refereee training and rules guidelines set forth by the CIF (California Interscholastic Federation) and they follow the guidelines of the NHAA (National High School Association).
This will take the complete oversight of judges away from Wizards of the coast but for an association to be recognized as an Official Judge the Organization has to be Certified by Wizards of the Coast.
Does anyone see an issue with doing something like that?
It will essentially create more jobs, and allow for people to become judges a lot easier
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Four pages in,is this a new record?hahaha.
While I am withholding my judgment on this issue simply because I do not know enough, I find this statement to basically be "screw Wizards and Hasbro!" Just because they are in a business to make money doesn't automatically make them evil. Several times moderators have said not to degenerate into personal attacks on Wizards/Hasbro or Judges. I would say that this statement falls clearly into a personal attack.
Sadly, there won't be any real winners in this suit. Both sides are going to fling themselves into the mud with the end result that everyone winds up dirty. Wizards will come off looking like it doesn't care about those judging those events, and the judges will come off looking like bent-out-of-shape volunteers (or employees, depending on the outcome of the suit) that were looking to pick a fight. It's a sad day all around while the TO's (at least to this point) get off completely free of this mess. At least so far as I've seen, they should be at least as neck deep in this issue as Wizards is.
It's the kind of thing that feels like it probably shouldn't win, but even if it doesn't I hope the visibility improves conditions overall.
I agree, but Wizards is the only one who has the power to tell all the TOs out there to treat judges better.
Every time there is an event that requires judges, it gets posted, along with what compensation the TO is offering to help with the event. This goes for events all the way up to GPs.
If you dont agree with what is offered, you dont apply
I mean, you should still get regular breaks, including meal breaks.
But yes, assuming that most of the time the Judge knows in advance the hours they are going to work and the pay they are going to receive for it, suing for overtime on top of the agreed upon amount seems bad.
Are you out of your mind? Thanks, Thread Police, but you should work on your reading comprehension. If you get "companies who want to make money are evil!" out of "workers should have rights and be fairly compensated" then there's something seriously wrong with you.
Then what was your point of putting in very large numbers? Also putting in revenue rather than profit to make the numbers seem even larger? If your stance was on "workers rights" then why not talk about that rather than spend most of it talking about the company involved?
I'm talking about people in this thread who care more about a massive international company than the wellbeing of their workers. As for why I used revenue, uh, perhaps because revenue is a standard measure of a company's value? Like everywhere? Is Hasbro trying to "make the numbers seem even larger" in their quarterly reports when they state revenues? Sorry you decided to interpret my factual statements about Hasbro's revenue as demonizing them, but that's entirely on you. My point was that Hasbro is a large corporation that can afford to hire judges on as proper employees.
I still wonder how that is any issue at all.
I mean if you judge a tournament and you are hungry, you tell your other judges and walk away to eat.
As easy as that.
Obvisiously you cannot have all judges run away for lunch during a round, that cannot work.
However, if you want to eat, you just do, what exactly is the TO doing to you ? I want to see a TO that will even notice you are away for that time, and even then, its like a toilet break, theres NOTHING they can do, its totally normal to have that kind of break.
And be realistic, nobody is doing a long break to eat, its usually something quick and dirty, just like the players do aswell, shouldnt be an affaire of more than 10-15 minutes at max.
A lot of TOs will just give you stuff for free (drinks, snacks etc.) , if they do not, you pay just like any player is, shouldnt be a backbreaking issue, if in doubt make yourself some food to bring to the event, we are adult enough to do that (or should be).
I simply cannot see this being a real life issue at all, its such a joke if you cannot get yourself food/drinks if you KNOW a tournament will last 10+ hours, you really should know better (as judging such events isnt something you are forced to do, you want to do them, and you prepare to do them, it shouldnt ever be a "job" for you that you feel obligated to do, neither is it important for your income, and never should be).
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Your statement is an emotional persuasive statement that is trying to use or misuse facts. It is not a factual statement.
The reason I say profits is that is where this law suit and any changes would be cutting into. Also that is the value of a company to me, its profits.
I'm actually just a tiny bit worried that this could spell the end of organized play eventually. It's hard to imagine Wizards paying wages to judges. It's possible that the competitive tournament system we have known and loved for decades has been built on top of a fragile employment structure overdue for collapse.
Profit is meaningless when determining the size and value of a company without revenue. It is not at all disingenuous to state a company's operating revenue when discussing the size of the company. You may care only about profit (and I can't imagine why unless you're a Hasbro shareholder), but the financial world disagrees.
Frankly, if Hasbro can't provide its workers with the minimum standards that employees in America are legally entitled to, then something is seriously wrong with their business model and they deserve to fail. Somehow I doubt that providing judges with overtime pay, travel expenses, and meal breaks will cut in to much of Hasbro's $416 million in profits, though.
I sincerely doubt this will happen. The competitive scene is far too important a promotional tool for Magic for them to abandon it just because they have to give judges overtime. If they lose this case I suspect they'll just cut costs elsewhere to compensate.