Comparing two cards with completely different mana costs.
Stay free MTGsalvation.
I'm not saying this card is amazing, but it's standard playable. But comparing it to another card that is 100% different and has a completely different cost of mana, like really? You must be new.
So 2UG is completely different then 2UU? I agree they are not the same but pretty damn close. Also, they are very similar cards.
2UG AND 2UU Are not even close to the same. How is this even a discussion?
I'm just saying, this card is fine and will be played. The posts in this thread are absolutely laughable.
Seriously? 3/4 of the cost is the same. It's not like we're talking GW Ajani and Chandra here. It's one color mana difference with the same CMC. This Jace is going to spend 3 of his first 15 months of Standard being the 3rd best Jace and not even close to second. Anything can happen after that, but the power level on this card is very low.
You need to be getting a better advantage than something that ranks between scry 1 and scry 2 or unsummon to justify not holding counter mana up.
You are getting better advantage. Mainly because it allows you to answer their most dangerous turn 3/4 play while being able to filter. And Jace will ultimate very quickly meaning it's forcing action from your control opponent, making them play out of tempo against your midrange opponent or acting as a fog for 2-3 turns against your aggro opponent. I'll take it.
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"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
This Jace will get the job done in limited. Nothing else... but there's nothing wrong with that.
Yep, I'm also not complaining. Its not a bad thing to have a bad or mediocre Jace, and this isn't blue hate talking either.
I think every core set needs at least 1 or 2 good PW, but they should not all be good. Just like Magic deliberately makes bad cards and thats good for the game to help players learn card evaluation, I think Wizards should make at least 1 or 2 bad PW in every core set. By all means give him cool art and flavor, but it should not be a bad thing or a disappointment to have a bad Jace, blue is overdue for a clunker PW.
This Jace will get the job done in limited. Nothing else... but there's nothing wrong with that.
Yep, I'm also not complaining. Its not a bad thing to have a bad or mediocre Jace, and this isn't blue hate talking either.
I think every core set needs at least 1 or 2 good PW, but they should not all be good. Just like Magic deliberately makes bad cards and thats good for the game to help players learn card evaluation, I think Wizards should make at least 1 or 2 bad PW in every core set. By all means give him cool art and flavor, but it should not be a bad thing or a disappointment to have a bad Jace, blue is overdue for a clunker PW.
I still object to deliberately making bad cards for the purpose of them being bad instead of just making cards that end up being worse than other cards.
You need to be getting a better advantage than something that ranks between scry 1 and scry 2 or unsummon to justify not holding counter mana up.
You are getting better advantage. Mainly because it allows you to answer their most dangerous turn 3/4 play while being able to filter. And Jace will ultimate very quickly meaning it's forcing action from your control opponent, making them play out of tempo against your midrange opponent or acting as a fog for 2-3 turns against your aggro opponent. I'll take it.
Know what else answers a turn 3-4 play while digging (and even does so at the same time)? Dissolve.
I dunno if it's standard playable. He definitely doesn't seem like he'll make an impact, and he's certainly nothing I'd want to run. My big thing is the flavor. I have absolutely no idea what about this card is the embodiment of the Guildpact.
This version is getting some hate, but he's still casual playable. And for some, that is what counts.
Every card can be casual playable. That means nothing.
It means everything. There are some cards that even casual players won't play with. This is a game for some, not a way of life. Every mythic printed does not need to be bonkers and prime for competitive standard play. It's like the naysayers that dismiss w/ "dies to removal...." There's a right place and time for most cards.
Don't be so quick to dismiss a card... remember Tarmogoyf was once a trash rare because the general population wrote it off.
Reading is tech. I appoligize. I was quickly clicking between the two and thought Jace went +1, -1 and -8. Regardless, he protects himself in the midrange matchup. I have a feeling if it was non-jace permanent it would be a little too good for repetitive bounce in eternal formats.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
Comparing two cards with completely different mana costs.
Stay free MTGsalvation.
I'm not saying this card is amazing, but it's standard playable. But comparing it to another card that is 100% different and has a completely different cost of mana, like really? You must be new.
It is being compared to the slot it is going to have to compete against in an upcoming Standard format, where UG is a very REAL color combination. This guy is an enabler for tricks that simply do not yet exist, which in current context makes him unplayable. Starting with 5 Loyalty and ticking up for +1 each turn is really only relevant in the event the game is slow enough to support it without showing diminishing returns on his activation, which adds up quickly when he cannot tick up to recover from an attack nor replace himself with a card - and tops it all off with having to throw things into your own GY from the top of your deck, which is worse than a real scry trigger.
Unless some crazy tricks find themselves in Standard which can play well with his +1, this guy is terrible and you cannot judge a card in context of what the format may or may not have printed to support it.
This version is getting some hate, but he's still casual playable. And for some, that is what counts.
Every card can be casual playable. That means nothing.
It means everything. There are some cards that even casual players won't play with. This is a game for some, not a way of life. Every mythic printed does not need to be bonkers and prime for competitive standard play. It's like the naysayers that dismiss w/ "dies to removal...." There's a right place and time for most cards.
In casual, if you think a card is fun, you can play with it. One of my friends plays Ruination Wurm because he likes it. That is casual. Any card that is liked by anyone can and will be played in casual.
Don't be so quick to dismiss a card... remember Tarmogoyf was once a trash rare because the general population wrote it off.
The 4 mana planeswalker with a mediocre +1 and a 1 mana spell as a -3 is not going to be the next Goyf.
I just wish the +1 wasn't the worst ever. Still want for the art. I mean, it's cool he'll be at 6 loyalty hitting the board but frankly that +1 is all but useless.
Well considering that the current jace effectively had 6 loyalty with his +1 ability, this card still seems marginal. I don't think any kind of graveyard interaction can make this playable since if you're trying to get a specific card in your graveyard this isn't the ability to do it. The -3 ability is underrated because it can also bounce opposing planeswalkers which can be a timewalk considering his mana cost. Could see a new kind of mono blue build using fewer creatures to build devotion, playing a more controlling game with the powerful threats of master and thassa.
Seems like a backwards architect of thought, this guy is much better against single big threats and terrible against several small threats. After consideration i dont think this card helps stabilize at all. No card advantage, if you bounce their large threat I can imagine mutavault ends this guy next turn, If you +1 you spent 4 mana on a bad scry effect. Seems decent in the control mirror filtering draws and bouncing opposing planeswalkers
There has to be a reason for Jace to self-mill beyond what we know today. Call me crazy, but I see this as evidence that Khans will have Threshold or a Threshold-like mechanic. Or at the very least, some kind of graveyard shenanigans.
Look at other cards in M15.
The Soul cycle can all activate from your graveyard.
The Liliana reprint lets you discard one of your own cards, but doesn't make everyone do the same like Veil does (which could be detrimental to you in a graveyard focused set).
Perilous Vault exiles instead of dumping everything in the graveyard to counter graveyard strategies.
Life's Legacy and Shrapnel Blast could be part of a cycle allowing you to sac a card for an effect, as a Threshold enabler.
Comparing two cards with completely different mana costs.
Stay free MTGsalvation.
I'm not saying this card is amazing, but it's standard playable. But comparing it to another card that is 100% different and has a completely different cost of mana, like really? You must be new.
It is being compared to the slot it is going to have to compete against in an upcoming Standard format, where UG is a very REAL color combination. This guy is an enabler for tricks that simply do not yet exist, which in current context makes him unplayable. Starting with 5 Loyalty and ticking up for +1 each turn is really only relevant in the event the game is slow enough to support it without showing diminishing returns on his activation, which adds up quickly when he cannot tick up to recover from an attack nor replace himself with a card - and tops it all off with having to throw things into your own GY from the top of your deck, which is worse than a real scry trigger.
Unless some crazy tricks find themselves in Standard which can play well with his +1, this guy is terrible and you cannot judge a card in context of what the format may or may not have printed to support it.
These are utterly terrible lands. Such terrible design among such a beautiful set. These lands have sent this set from my top set down, way down.
Your post about Scrylands.
Just pointing out that you are utterly terrible at gauging how good Magic cards are. Nice post though.
You are aware that a good portion of the professional magic community vastly underestimated the power of Scry lands as well right? A big reason why the scry lands are so good is also the existence of Thoughtseize in the format, where the best way to combat it is with your land by simply being able to keep the right answer on top of your deck instead of your hand.
You clearly have very little understanding of how pieces fit together and how to gauge things based on context and when it is or is not important or even when it is or is not existent.
I am glad you think you are above everyone else, but it is laughable that you think Kiora and Jace are on completely different spectrum when we have data suggesting that this card is not only a very bad enable for a strategy that does not exist, and a look at what to expect with rotation and format projection.
Comparing two cards with completely different mana costs.
Stay free MTGsalvation.
I'm not saying this card is amazing, but it's standard playable. But comparing it to another card that is 100% different and has a completely different cost of mana, like really? You must be new.
It is being compared to the slot it is going to have to compete against in an upcoming Standard format, where UG is a very REAL color combination. This guy is an enabler for tricks that simply do not yet exist, which in current context makes him unplayable. Starting with 5 Loyalty and ticking up for +1 each turn is really only relevant in the event the game is slow enough to support it without showing diminishing returns on his activation, which adds up quickly when he cannot tick up to recover from an attack nor replace himself with a card - and tops it all off with having to throw things into your own GY from the top of your deck, which is worse than a real scry trigger.
Unless some crazy tricks find themselves in Standard which can play well with his +1, this guy is terrible and you cannot judge a card in context of what the format may or may not have printed to support it.
I just wish the +1 wasn't the worst ever. Still want for the art. I mean, it's cool he'll be at 6 loyalty hitting the board but frankly that +1 is all but useless.
It is fine design to have a PW where the +1 is all about getting to ultimate, while being decent but not incredible on the way there. +1 card filtering is fine for that task. If you are designing a PW where the +1 ability is supposed to rival the 2nd ability for goodness this isn't it, but if the goal is to just be good enough while waiting for ultimate, this Jace is fine.
But, if you are going to do that, then that 2nd minus ability had better be really freaking good. Its always great to plus on the way to ultimate if you can, but if the board state wont let you do that, then that minus ability has got to be worth a card almost all by itself.
-3 bounce appears to fail that requirement hard. The only hedge is the loyalty is high enough to bounce twice, but even then that minus ability seems weak as a fallback option for a PW designed around the ultimate. It needs to be at least bounce to top of library or bounce 2 cards or something stronger than what it is to fulfill the role of "oh crap I'm not gonna be able to ultimate, now what?" ability
Seriously? 3/4 of the cost is the same. It's not like we're talking GW Ajani and Chandra here. It's one color mana difference with the same CMC. This Jace is going to spend 3 of his first 15 months of Standard being the 3rd best Jace and not even close to second. Anything can happen after that, but the power level on this card is very low.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
You are getting better advantage. Mainly because it allows you to answer their most dangerous turn 3/4 play while being able to filter. And Jace will ultimate very quickly meaning it's forcing action from your control opponent, making them play out of tempo against your midrange opponent or acting as a fog for 2-3 turns against your aggro opponent. I'll take it.
Yep, I'm also not complaining. Its not a bad thing to have a bad or mediocre Jace, and this isn't blue hate talking either.
I think every core set needs at least 1 or 2 good PW, but they should not all be good. Just like Magic deliberately makes bad cards and thats good for the game to help players learn card evaluation, I think Wizards should make at least 1 or 2 bad PW in every core set. By all means give him cool art and flavor, but it should not be a bad thing or a disappointment to have a bad Jace, blue is overdue for a clunker PW.
I still object to deliberately making bad cards for the purpose of them being bad instead of just making cards that end up being worse than other cards.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Know what else answers a turn 3-4 play while digging (and even does so at the same time)? Dissolve.
It means everything. There are some cards that even casual players won't play with. This is a game for some, not a way of life. Every mythic printed does not need to be bonkers and prime for competitive standard play. It's like the naysayers that dismiss w/ "dies to removal...." There's a right place and time for most cards.
Don't be so quick to dismiss a card... remember Tarmogoyf was once a trash rare because the general population wrote it off.
_____________________________________________________
Your post about Scrylands.
Just pointing out that you are utterly terrible at gauging how good Magic cards are. Nice post though.
In casual, if you think a card is fun, you can play with it. One of my friends plays Ruination Wurm because he likes it. That is casual. Any card that is liked by anyone can and will be played in casual.
The 4 mana planeswalker with a mediocre +1 and a 1 mana spell as a -3 is not going to be the next Goyf.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Seems like a backwards architect of thought, this guy is much better against single big threats and terrible against several small threats. After consideration i dont think this card helps stabilize at all. No card advantage, if you bounce their large threat I can imagine mutavault ends this guy next turn, If you +1 you spent 4 mana on a bad scry effect. Seems decent in the control mirror filtering draws and bouncing opposing planeswalkers
Look at other cards in M15.
Theros also has some self-mill/sac going on: Nyx Weaver, Satyr Wayfinder, Kruphix's Insight, Renowned Weaver, Dakra Mystic, Nemesis of Mortals, Scourge of Skola Vale, Graverobber Spider, Forsaken Drifters, Eater of Hope, Champion of Stray Souls etc. The entire block also has a high number of exile and "place in library" effects to prevent cards from reaching the graveyard.
WORST Jace by far.
You are aware that a good portion of the professional magic community vastly underestimated the power of Scry lands as well right? A big reason why the scry lands are so good is also the existence of Thoughtseize in the format, where the best way to combat it is with your land by simply being able to keep the right answer on top of your deck instead of your hand.
You clearly have very little understanding of how pieces fit together and how to gauge things based on context and when it is or is not important or even when it is or is not existent.
I am glad you think you are above everyone else, but it is laughable that you think Kiora and Jace are on completely different spectrum when we have data suggesting that this card is not only a very bad enable for a strategy that does not exist, and a look at what to expect with rotation and format projection.
Get off your high horse.
Hey watch this…
Guess those sheep really put in work at the past couple SCG events.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
Watcha gonna do when they don't play you.
It might not be good, but it isn't that bad. Let's try and keep the criticism reasonable here.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Gideon, CoJ 2.0?
It is fine design to have a PW where the +1 is all about getting to ultimate, while being decent but not incredible on the way there. +1 card filtering is fine for that task. If you are designing a PW where the +1 ability is supposed to rival the 2nd ability for goodness this isn't it, but if the goal is to just be good enough while waiting for ultimate, this Jace is fine.
But, if you are going to do that, then that 2nd minus ability had better be really freaking good. Its always great to plus on the way to ultimate if you can, but if the board state wont let you do that, then that minus ability has got to be worth a card almost all by itself.
-3 bounce appears to fail that requirement hard. The only hedge is the loyalty is high enough to bounce twice, but even then that minus ability seems weak as a fallback option for a PW designed around the ultimate. It needs to be at least bounce to top of library or bounce 2 cards or something stronger than what it is to fulfill the role of "oh crap I'm not gonna be able to ultimate, now what?" ability
"+1: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other into the graveyard."
Shoutouts to Tablet of the Guilds in the background.