Guys, I just figured out what makes this Jace playable: Tamiyo's ultimate. So for all you casual players, after you ultimate Tamiyo and get her emblem, this Jace's +1 is pretty fun. It's a mini Brainstorm, and that's pretty useful. You know, after you're almost guaranteed to win the game because you have Tamiyo's emblem.
Woah, simmer down there sparky. First of all, Jace is better with Tamyo's ultimate, but so is almost every card in your deck. Your instants and sorceries are probably stronger than Jace and at this point, it's really hard to lose anyways.
Second, he is not at all comparable to brainstorm. The strengths of brainstorm are seeing 3 new cards directly in your hand, and putting cards that aren't useful right now back in your deck, sometimes even abusing the top of the library (such as is the case with miracles). Jace's ability in no way resembles brainstorm.
Guys, I just figured out what makes this Jace playable: Tamiyo's ultimate. So for all you casual players, after you ultimate Tamiyo and get her emblem, this Jace's +1 is pretty fun. It's a mini Brainstorm, and that's pretty useful. You know, after you're almost guaranteed to win the game because you have Tamiyo's emblem.
Woah, simmer down there sparky. First of all, Jace is better with Tamyo's ultimate, but so is almost every card in your deck. Your instants and sorceries are probably stronger than Jace and at this point, it's really hard to lose anyways.
Second, he is not at all comparable to brainstorm. The strengths of brainstorm are seeing 3 new cards directly in your hand, and putting cards that aren't useful right now back in your deck, sometimes even abusing the top of the library (such as is the case with miracles). Jace's ability in no way resembles brainstorm.
Card is up from $10 to $12 recently (my own observations, make your own of course).
Personally I think it's a great card and being undervalued.
This card does virtually nothing, even for limited it's a stretch, I don't know how it's going to be constructed playable at all.
Okay but why are you telling me that? Maybe you meant to quote someone else's post because yours and mine aren't very related.
Now that you said that though, how can you claim the card does virtually nothing? If the 3 abilities on Jace are "virtually nothing", then most other cards in the game must do absolutely nothing.
Card is up from $10 to $12 recently (my own observations, make your own of course).
Personally I think it's a great card and being undervalued.
This card does virtually nothing, even for limited it's a stretch, I don't know how it's going to be constructed playable at all.
Okay but why are you telling me that? Maybe you meant to quote someone else's post because yours and mine aren't very related.
Now that you said that though, how can you claim the card does virtually nothing? If the 3 abilities on Jace are "virtually nothing", then most other cards in the game must do absolutely nothing.
Seems you said, "I think it's a great card," and Godec disagreed.
The card does virtually nothing because the first two abilities aren't very useful for something you're investing a whopping four mana in, and the third will almost never be activated. It is fairly bad and other cards are much better.
If it's really up to $12, sell what you have because it's not going to stay that high unless the price of toilet paper somehow skyrockets and people are looking for a cheaper alternative.
I think it is prety reasonable Jace to spike... Delve has been revealed as a mechanic and now people are speculating on new jace(really you should have bought them when it was a $6 less card trading or buying from budies) I realy can't see hin going for more than $15 and after people starts to play the new formart , for more than $11.
It is a good card to sinegizzzzzze with delve (also you will be building your graveyard with fetches before that) and could help you cast a big delve monster the turn after he enters the batlefield but as many have said he will not be 4 off(hopefull thinking as a 2 off) and soo its price will not go way up...
But bash on it because you think its not a good cards is a litle too much... ( I remenber lots of **** that saw Standard play even being **** and even soo holding a reasonable price)
Card is up from $10 to $12 recently (my own observations, make your own of course).
Personally I think it's a great card and being undervalued.
This card does virtually nothing, even for limited it's a stretch, I don't know how it's going to be constructed playable at all.
Okay but why are you telling me that? Maybe you meant to quote someone else's post because yours and mine aren't very related.
Now that you said that though, how can you claim the card does virtually nothing? If the 3 abilities on Jace are "virtually nothing", then most other cards in the game must do absolutely nothing.
Seems you said, "I think it's a great card," and Godec disagreed.
The card does virtually nothing because the first two abilities aren't very useful for something you're investing a whopping four mana in, and the third will almost never be activated. It is fairly bad and other cards are much better.
Oh
Well I think it's a fairly good card, and many other cards aren't as good.
Playsets are getting hard to find under $50+ shipping on eBay now.
Why is this still being discussed in the rumor mill?
Because people want it to be good...
\
I don't want Jace to be good. I just realize its potential. It will see play in control decks (most likely as a four of).
With supreme verdict rotating out (and only a 5 mana counterable wrath replacing it) midrange decks will flourish.
He is certainly less exciting and has less raw power than AoT, no one is arguing that, but to say that he is just plain terrible is to both ignore the evidence to the contrary and take a closed minded approach to your evaluation. He is a synergy piece more than a power piece, but on an empty board, he must be dealt with quickly. He really shines when you have more than one interaction with his +1 such as kiora, chandra, courser, whip, delve, etc. Without at least one of these he is unexciting as a card selection engine. With just one of these he can make the difference between whiffing for a few turns and running on all cylinders. With 2 or more in the same deck you actually tend to be very glad to see him. The issue is that the current format rewards power cards more than synergy cards with the exception of devotion, and Jace AoT is actually strong enough to have started to show up in modern. It is hard to argue against that kind of power level.
Sure, bad cards see fringe play and occasionally appear in winning decklists, particularly in the first couple of months after they come out. That doesn't make them good.
He is certainly less exciting and has less raw power than AoT, no one is arguing that, but to say that he is just plain terrible is to both ignore the evidence to the contrary and take a closed minded approach to your evaluation.
Saying a card is bad is not "closed-minded." This is one of my real pet peeves here. Part of card evaluation in Constructed is dismissing bad cards, just step one of card evaluation in Limited is to set aside the unplayables. The fact that a few people, even if these people are good players, put a copy of this in their sideboard or even maindeck doesn't mean it's good. So no, I'm not ignoring evidence. I'm well aware of the fact that a few people used it as a one-of in Mono-Blue Devotion; I just think they're completely incorrect to do so.
Jace is going to pick up value with the direction delve and the Sultai have taken, especially the Ascendency and Sidisi. Add in Necromancer's Stockpile and you have a deck that you practically play through drawing, discarding and decking. Period.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTG Junky... First packs being a starter of each 4th Edition and Ice Age. Good Grief, I've been playing since 1995? Where does the time go!
Quote from Xcric »
this is mtgs, where occam's razor is so blunt it can't cut jello any more.
Sure, bad cards see fringe play and occasionally appear in winning decklists, particularly in the first couple of months after they come out. That doesn't make them good.
He is certainly less exciting and has less raw power than AoT, no one is arguing that, but to say that he is just plain terrible is to both ignore the evidence to the contrary and take a closed minded approach to your evaluation.
Saying a card is bad is not "closed-minded." This is one of my real pet peeves here. Part of card evaluation in Constructed is dismissing bad cards, just step one of card evaluation in Limited is to set aside the unplayables. The fact that a few people, even if these people are good players, put a copy of this in their sideboard or even maindeck doesn't mean it's good. So no, I'm not ignoring evidence. I'm well aware of the fact that a few people used it as a one-of in Mono-Blue Devotion; I just think they're completely incorrect to do so.
</blockquote>
I think people underestimate Jace because we currently live in a format where "Midrange" decks are considerably under performing.
The format is dominated heavily by control and aggro. Midrange decks (such as GR monsters) have nearly phased out at this point.
With the exclusion of a 4 mana uncountable wrath I suspect midrange will surge in Takir. If my prediction is correct, Jace will see play.
Jace is going to pick up value with the direction delve and the Sultai have taken, especially the Ascendency and Sidisi. Add in Necromancer's Stockpile and you have a deck that you practically play through drawing, discarding and decking. Period.
There are just so many better options for this. Besides, Sidisi doesn't actually need that much support. If she's not removed immediately, she'll get out of control quickly even without any "dredge" effects.
Jace is going to pick up value with the direction delve and the Sultai have taken, especially the Ascendency and Sidisi. Add in Necromancer's Stockpile and you have a deck that you practically play through drawing, discarding and decking. Period.
There are just so many better options for this. Besides, Sidisi doesn't actually need that much support. If she's not removed immediately, she'll get out of control quickly even without any "dredge" effects.
Although I agree that delve/dredge style decks may not want Jace, Jace will find another home in nearly any control deck post rotation. Especially if the meta shifts to support midrange.
I think the devotion decks that ran this thought of it as an extra, 'unremovable' Bident, basically working on the principle that nobody would bother to waste a downfall on it.
He's so terrible, so difficult and bothersome to remove . . . Seeing tLG instead of AoT (in this scenario) is a lot like seeing Chandra's Phoenix instead of Prophetic Flamespeaker. (where the phoenix lives long enough to attack a few times)
(yes, phoenix is an awesome card, I'm just talking about the psychology of removing one)
Sure, bad cards see fringe play and occasionally appear in winning decklists, particularly in the first couple of months after they come out. That doesn't make them good.
I was responding to those above me who said jace sees no play. I provided evidence that showed those statements to be untrue.
He is certainly less exciting and has less raw power than AoT, no one is arguing that, but to say that he is just plain terrible is to both ignore the evidence to the contrary and take a closed minded approach to your evaluation.
Saying a card is bad is not "closed-minded." This is one of my real pet peeves here. Part of card evaluation in Constructed is dismissing bad cards, just step one of card evaluation in Limited is to set aside the unplayables. The fact that a few people, even if these people are good players, put a copy of this in their sideboard or even maindeck doesn't mean it's good. So no, I'm not ignoring evidence. I'm well aware of the fact that a few people used it as a one-of in Mono-Blue Devotion; I just think they're completely incorrect to do so.
A lot of people lost to Desecration Demon at the end of last season despite a pretty much universal agreement before that point that he was bad. The rock was probably the best deck in the format once lifebane zombie replaced geralf's messenger and the demonic rising tech was discovered. In that particular deck, Desecration Demon was an all star despite many players having already dismissed it as a bad card, due in part because there were many creatures in the format that could be sacrificed to his trigger and generate value while getting in for damage. As it turned out, Desecration Demon allowed that deck to play Mutilate much closer to Plague Wind than Damnation due to a high nonbasic count and most other creatures in the format having 4 or less toughness. Demon was also a potent way to get back into the game against decks that had been locking it down every turn due to the incredible amount of life and cards that you got by saccing it to Disciple of Bolas.
Now, I recognize that you have provided your explanations earlier in the thread. You have defended your position repeatedly. There are plenty of posts in thread though that call this Jace a terrible (not just bad, but some even compare it to tibalt) card without any explanation, reason, or context. The rest of the story is that testing has shown this Jace to be fine. I'm pretty sure that Jeff Hoogland for a well known example doesn't just bring a deck to an IQ with untested cards in it. Also, I did some testing of my own with him. I had him in the BUG control deck for a bit and found that what that deck wanted was more copies of Jace, Aot in large part due to the amount of time that the +1 provides against aggro. In the BUG reanimator list I've been playing around with on the other hand, Jace tLG is a boss and I have gone from 1 to two to 3 copies. The extra bit of graveyard synergy is important, and in that deck, my plan against aggro isn't so much to control what they are doing as it is to get bigger than them which buys me the time to play Jace and set up the rest of my draws rather nicely.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
Yeah, with delve around, the downside of Jace's +1 can be mitigated, but even so,i don't think he'll be widely used.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Woah, simmer down there sparky. First of all, Jace is better with Tamyo's ultimate, but so is almost every card in your deck. Your instants and sorceries are probably stronger than Jace and at this point, it's really hard to lose anyways.
Second, he is not at all comparable to brainstorm. The strengths of brainstorm are seeing 3 new cards directly in your hand, and putting cards that aren't useful right now back in your deck, sometimes even abusing the top of the library (such as is the case with miracles). Jace's ability in no way resembles brainstorm.
Uh, I was kind of being facetious...
This card does virtually nothing, even for limited it's a stretch, I don't know how it's going to be constructed playable at all.
Okay but why are you telling me that? Maybe you meant to quote someone else's post because yours and mine aren't very related.
Now that you said that though, how can you claim the card does virtually nothing? If the 3 abilities on Jace are "virtually nothing", then most other cards in the game must do absolutely nothing.
.
Seems you said, "I think it's a great card," and Godec disagreed.
The card does virtually nothing because the first two abilities aren't very useful for something you're investing a whopping four mana in, and the third will almost never be activated. It is fairly bad and other cards are much better.
It is a good card to sinegizzzzzze with delve (also you will be building your graveyard with fetches before that) and could help you cast a big delve monster the turn after he enters the batlefield but as many have said he will not be 4 off(hopefull thinking as a 2 off) and soo its price will not go way up...
But bash on it because you think its not a good cards is a litle too much... ( I remenber lots of **** that saw Standard play even being **** and even soo holding a reasonable price)
Oh
Well I think it's a fairly good card, and many other cards aren't as good.
Playsets are getting hard to find under $50+ shipping on eBay now.
.
I don't want Jace to be good. I just realize its potential. It will see play in control decks (most likely as a four of).
With supreme verdict rotating out (and only a 5 mana counterable wrath replacing it) midrange decks will flourish.
This Jace excels VS midrange decks.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
new jace sees no play
discussion over
He'll see play in a control shell.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T1]=1&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=06/15/2009&end_date=09/07/2014&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=Jace, the Living Guildpact&simple_card_name[2]=&simple_card_name[3]=&simple_card_name[4]=&simple_card_name[5]=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=>=&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=>=&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]=&comparison[3]=>=&card_qty[3]=1&card_name[3]=&comparison[4]=>=&card_qty[4]=1&card_name[4]=&comparison[5]=>=&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[5]=&sb_comparison[1]=>=&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_name[1]=&sb_comparison[2]=>=&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[2]=&card_not[1]=&card_not[2]=&card_not[3]=&card_not[4]=&card_not[5]=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show Decks&p=1
He is certainly less exciting and has less raw power than AoT, no one is arguing that, but to say that he is just plain terrible is to both ignore the evidence to the contrary and take a closed minded approach to your evaluation. He is a synergy piece more than a power piece, but on an empty board, he must be dealt with quickly. He really shines when you have more than one interaction with his +1 such as kiora, chandra, courser, whip, delve, etc. Without at least one of these he is unexciting as a card selection engine. With just one of these he can make the difference between whiffing for a few turns and running on all cylinders. With 2 or more in the same deck you actually tend to be very glad to see him. The issue is that the current format rewards power cards more than synergy cards with the exception of devotion, and Jace AoT is actually strong enough to have started to show up in modern. It is hard to argue against that kind of power level.
Sure, bad cards see fringe play and occasionally appear in winning decklists, particularly in the first couple of months after they come out. That doesn't make them good.
Saying a card is bad is not "closed-minded." This is one of my real pet peeves here. Part of card evaluation in Constructed is dismissing bad cards, just step one of card evaluation in Limited is to set aside the unplayables. The fact that a few people, even if these people are good players, put a copy of this in their sideboard or even maindeck doesn't mean it's good. So no, I'm not ignoring evidence. I'm well aware of the fact that a few people used it as a one-of in Mono-Blue Devotion; I just think they're completely incorrect to do so.
I think people underestimate Jace because we currently live in a format where "Midrange" decks are considerably under performing.
The format is dominated heavily by control and aggro. Midrange decks (such as GR monsters) have nearly phased out at this point.
With the exclusion of a 4 mana uncountable wrath I suspect midrange will surge in Takir. If my prediction is correct, Jace will see play.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
There are just so many better options for this. Besides, Sidisi doesn't actually need that much support. If she's not removed immediately, she'll get out of control quickly even without any "dredge" effects.
Although I agree that delve/dredge style decks may not want Jace, Jace will find another home in nearly any control deck post rotation. Especially if the meta shifts to support midrange.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
He's so terrible, so difficult and bothersome to remove . . . Seeing tLG instead of AoT (in this scenario) is a lot like seeing Chandra's Phoenix instead of Prophetic Flamespeaker. (where the phoenix lives long enough to attack a few times)
(yes, phoenix is an awesome card, I'm just talking about the psychology of removing one)
I was responding to those above me who said jace sees no play. I provided evidence that showed those statements to be untrue.
You should read this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29259_Maintaining-An-Open-Mind.html
It explains better than I can why saying a card is bad w/o qualifiers is not helpful so I will give an example instead.
A lot of people lost to Desecration Demon at the end of last season despite a pretty much universal agreement before that point that he was bad. The rock was probably the best deck in the format once lifebane zombie replaced geralf's messenger and the demonic rising tech was discovered. In that particular deck, Desecration Demon was an all star despite many players having already dismissed it as a bad card, due in part because there were many creatures in the format that could be sacrificed to his trigger and generate value while getting in for damage. As it turned out, Desecration Demon allowed that deck to play Mutilate much closer to Plague Wind than Damnation due to a high nonbasic count and most other creatures in the format having 4 or less toughness. Demon was also a potent way to get back into the game against decks that had been locking it down every turn due to the incredible amount of life and cards that you got by saccing it to Disciple of Bolas.
Now, I recognize that you have provided your explanations earlier in the thread. You have defended your position repeatedly. There are plenty of posts in thread though that call this Jace a terrible (not just bad, but some even compare it to tibalt) card without any explanation, reason, or context. The rest of the story is that testing has shown this Jace to be fine. I'm pretty sure that Jeff Hoogland for a well known example doesn't just bring a deck to an IQ with untested cards in it. Also, I did some testing of my own with him. I had him in the BUG control deck for a bit and found that what that deck wanted was more copies of Jace, Aot in large part due to the amount of time that the +1 provides against aggro. In the BUG reanimator list I've been playing around with on the other hand, Jace tLG is a boss and I have gone from 1 to two to 3 copies. The extra bit of graveyard synergy is important, and in that deck, my plan against aggro isn't so much to control what they are doing as it is to get bigger than them which buys me the time to play Jace and set up the rest of my draws rather nicely.
Feels like we need some awesome Delve cards before Jace, the Living Guildpact has a true proper place or home.
Or is he anti-Delve...? Just waiting for the other Planeswalkers to appear in Khans, maybe, too, I guess, lol.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)