I promise everyone that Jace + Courser + Carytid + Kiora will be a shell post-rotation.
Considering you were the first person in this thread to dismiss the new Jace, I find the above a somewhat amusing proclamation.
But then I took a minute to think about it, and realized that while it looks poor at first glance, it has some real applications with the cards we know will be powerful. You can't evaluate any cards in a vacuum.
He has absolutely pitiful synergy with all of those cards. Courser, especially. It pretty much only helps do anything better than Courser alone if your top card is a bad spell and your second card is a land - how often is that the case? I don't see any scenario where you'd rather play Jace than Kiora or even a Divination-type ability.
with him, courser and kiora on the field you can dig and ramp a ton. start the turn with a land on top? play it, then if you have another land on top use kiora, draw and play land and then jace to set up next turn, if not you can use jace to set up your next card and then use kiora. I don't know but digging 3-4 cards plus playing 2 lands a turn seems pretty good. In a turbofog list maybe? digging for continuous fogs until you hit your win con or ultimate kiora would be worth a try if you ask me.
Reanimator-ish Jace that can handle some damage. I think there are too many overreactions here as usual. He will be used successfully somewhere I can almost guarantee it.
I do think the +1 has a 'cute' combo with Pain Seer! I also 'think' this might be a tempo Jace, not a control Jace, so trying to rate him in control is probably an excersize in futility.
Do I think this is the 'weakest' version of Jace, but is he unplayable....I say give him a shot once we rotate out of RtR and keep testing and playing around with him as new sets come out.
How is he a tempo loss? A 4 mana boomerang would destroy your tempo and he does next to nothing after that. Tempo decks can't spend 4 mana to hopefully smooth out their draws eventually and not at all impact the board, nor can they spend 4 mana on bounce - that's literally the exact opposite of what tempo wants.
Eh, fair enough, I was simply echo-ing LSV's thoughts on the card and the main point I was trying to convey was, I think that this is not a control Jace. The card is really hard to evaluate currently, so my opinion is that we wait for RTR to rotate out and the new meta develope to determine how good this Jace actually is.
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Disclaimer: As per the norm, I am aware some people will disagree with my opinion and I acknowledge there is a possibility that my opinion is wrong. The above post is simply my musings on what I view to be the most likely scenario given the information that is available and I am aware of at the time of typing! Peace.
with him, courser and kiora on the field you can dig and ramp a ton. start the turn with a land on top? play it, then if you have another land on top use kiora, draw and play land and then jace to set up next turn, if not you can use jace to set up your next card and then use kiora. I don't know but digging 3-4 cards plus playing 2 lands a turn seems pretty good. In a turbofog list maybe? digging for continuous fogs until you hit your win con or ultimate kiora would be worth a try if you ask me.
Except that's not at all what will actually happen, even if you have all three out and your opponent just doesn't bother interacting with you. That's what might happen when you go land/land/spell on top - or it could be spell/spell on top. Jace's +1 is just plain bad, that's really all there is to it. No PWer with non-ultimate abilities that are that bad has ever seen play, plain and simple. Having a little more loyalty and a slightly easier to reach, but far less powerful ult doesn't change that. Even if reanimation is a thing, he's absolutely terrible at enabling it. You're not going to play a do-nothing 4 drop just hoping that a reanimation target will be in your top 2 in the next few turns - no reanimation deck plays more than a few targets.
I'm surprised that his +1 has the nerve to not even give you a card in hand. This is worse than most four-cost enchantments, really. But honestly? Jace looks way cooler than ever, he's got a Scott Bakula thing going on.
If you have a spell on top you start with kiora, and then jace to set up for a land (lets say you run 26 lands out of 60 cards is 43% of your deck so chances are you'll find one land in three cards). I'd probably run this in conjunction with the new nissa in a land heavy deck and throw in a soul of new phyrexia or two with all that fog. Anyways, not saying this would see competitive play but it sure would be something fun to play with. Or maybe I just want this jace to be good wayyyy too much lol.
Hmm. For 4 mana you get to draw two cards and put one back; it's decent. And starting at 5 loyalty, I'm actually thinking the ultimate will actually be a big game changer in formats besides modern and legacy. Again the 5 loyalty keeps it away from the smaller burn spells, so I think he is a solid 4 drop. However the -3 doesn't seem very powerful, four mana for a return creature to their owners hand. I'm thinking that that will be used more often on the owner of the jace to return their own creature to their hand. I'm semi disappointed, but then again I haven't been a big Jace fan anyways.
Reread it. You draw neither. You look at two cards and put one in the graveyard. The other stays on top of your library.
You are correct, sir. But also because you're typically looking at six mana or more for card advantage outside of tokens on a + ability. (Yeah, I know, if one of those cards is Wonder or Reassembling Skeleton or something with flashback, you still get card advantage.)
Not every planeswalker can be Jace, the Mind Sculptor. In fact, in the interest of game balance, I'd prefer most of them not be.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Eh, fair enough, I was simply echo-ing LSV's thoughts on the card and the main point I was trying to convey was, I think that this is not a control Jace. The card is really hard to evaluate currently, so my opinion is that we wait for RTR to rotate out and the new meta develope to determine how good this Jace actually is.
I suspect this Jace is actually intended as a pure control card. Draw filtering obviously gains a lot of power in a longer game, and having bounce a permanent for a second ability suggests he's made for a counter-heavy deck. Finally, the ult is a classic control stranglehold play, by taking massive card advantage.
Jace was purposely downpowered. If Wizards wanted to push it without changing much, it will bounce another permanent INSTEAD of nonland permanent. Even then I think his power level will be mediocre.
Seriously, the first dollar bin Jace. lol. What a piece of crap card. I know they can't all be great but this thing is like Tibalt bad. Wow. His ult is cool, in fact its pretty much GG but beyond that your paying 4 mana for a bad sleight of hand effect that doesn't even net you a card or a bad boomerang which can't hit lands...oof how the mighty have fallen. Guess Jace is just slumming it on Ravnica, all those amenities of civilization are makin' him soft.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Seriously, the first dollar bin Jace. lol. What a piece of crap card. I know they can't all be great but this thing is like Tibalt bad. Wow. His ult is cool, in fact its pretty much GG but beyond that your paying 4 mana for a bad sleight of hand effect that doesn't even net you a card or a bad boomerang which can't hit lands...oof how the mighty have fallen. Guess Jace is just slumming it on Ravnica, all those amenities of civilization are makin' him soft.
I will buy all you open at $2.00 each plus shipping (look you double your money!). He is not the splashiest walker to hit the scene in recent days, but he is not tibalt by any stretch of the imagination.
Seriously, the first dollar bin Jace. lol. What a piece of crap card. I know they can't all be great but this thing is like Tibalt bad. Wow. His ult is cool, in fact its pretty much GG but beyond that your paying 4 mana for a bad sleight of hand effect that doesn't even net you a card or a bad boomerang which can't hit lands...oof how the mighty have fallen. Guess Jace is just slumming it on Ravnica, all those amenities of civilization are makin' him soft.
I will buy all you open at $2.00 each plus shipping (look you double your money!). He is not the splashiest walker to hit the scene in recent days, but he is not tibalt by any stretch of the imagination.
I know it sounds harsh but at least Tibalt gives you a chance at something tangible in hand the turn he comes into play, two full turns sooner than JLG. The very fact that we can make any correlation to Tibalt should be like the biggest red flag in the history of Magic. But, hey, in a world where I just forked out $20 a piece for a 7 mana walker, what the hell.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
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Burn
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
So no Elixir of Immortality in M15. First time it wasn't in a Core Set since M10. Did they do that to try to push Jace harder? The Elixir provided a very important role for grindy control decks.
Assuming wedges in Khans, the Ana wedge could easily be about self milling. Blue, Black, and Green would have aspects of Dimir, Golgari, and Simic. Mill your own cards, cast from your graveyard, and grow those undead-fish-beast abominations. This Jace could be decent with that. You'd put one card into your hand and one card into your graveyard. Which in that situation would give you card advantage. Assuming its a keyword thing for cards you can cast from your graveyard you'd be able to sort them into your graveyard and your other cards into your hand. Jace could be pretty solid in a deck like that.
Assuming wedges in Khans, the Ana wedge could easily be about self milling. Blue, Black, and Green would have aspects of Dimir, Golgari, and Simic. Mill your own cards, cast from your graveyard, and grow those undead-fish-beast abominations. This Jace could be decent with that. You'd put one card into your hand and one card into your graveyard. Which in that situation would give you card advantage. Assuming its a keyword thing for cards you can cast from your graveyard you'd be able to sort them into your graveyard and your other cards into your hand. Jace could be pretty solid in a deck like that.
Except for the fact that putting 1 (一, ein, uno, un, один) card in the GY per turn for 4 mana is a terrible, terrible rate.
With Elixir and Aetherling rotating out, this card will see play in control decks. It does the same thing as Vraska the Unseen: Tick up a few times and ultimate. Except this kind of walker is much better in blue.
It will have a role in standard in blue control decks but no one will want this card once it rotates. It's really bad and it's only saved by being the win-con and engine that fits the most.
I actually tested him and he's not horrible because of his high loyalty
His crapiness actual helps him survive, nobody wants to attack him with his 6 loyality, but they will have to, just to stop the ultimate ; and in that case you at least get a "potential" bounce out of him, if thats really worth it (mostly not, but at least you have the option).
All he does is +1 all day, doing fairly nothing in the process, but nobody wants to kill him either.
Works especially good in combination with some defensive dudes, but then again, you could also simply play Kiora, which is superior to him anyway, both on the card advantage and ultimate.
4 mana is just a bad spot, this Jace would be perfect at 3 mana (then even with 3 starting loyality and adjusted loyality values for the ultimate aswell).
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
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He has absolutely pitiful synergy with all of those cards. Courser, especially. It pretty much only helps do anything better than Courser alone if your top card is a bad spell and your second card is a land - how often is that the case? I don't see any scenario where you'd rather play Jace than Kiora or even a Divination-type ability.
Eh, fair enough, I was simply echo-ing LSV's thoughts on the card and the main point I was trying to convey was, I think that this is not a control Jace. The card is really hard to evaluate currently, so my opinion is that we wait for RTR to rotate out and the new meta develope to determine how good this Jace actually is.
Except that's not at all what will actually happen, even if you have all three out and your opponent just doesn't bother interacting with you. That's what might happen when you go land/land/spell on top - or it could be spell/spell on top. Jace's +1 is just plain bad, that's really all there is to it. No PWer with non-ultimate abilities that are that bad has ever seen play, plain and simple. Having a little more loyalty and a slightly easier to reach, but far less powerful ult doesn't change that. Even if reanimation is a thing, he's absolutely terrible at enabling it. You're not going to play a do-nothing 4 drop just hoping that a reanimation target will be in your top 2 in the next few turns - no reanimation deck plays more than a few targets.
You are correct, sir. But also because you're typically looking at six mana or more for card advantage outside of tokens on a + ability. (Yeah, I know, if one of those cards is Wonder or Reassembling Skeleton or something with flashback, you still get card advantage.)
Not every planeswalker can be Jace, the Mind Sculptor. In fact, in the interest of game balance, I'd prefer most of them not be.
On phasing:
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
I suspect this Jace is actually intended as a pure control card. Draw filtering obviously gains a lot of power in a longer game, and having bounce a permanent for a second ability suggests he's made for a counter-heavy deck. Finally, the ult is a classic control stranglehold play, by taking massive card advantage.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
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GW Liege
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Goblins
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Dredge
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GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I will buy all you open at $2.00 each plus shipping (look you double your money!). He is not the splashiest walker to hit the scene in recent days, but he is not tibalt by any stretch of the imagination.
I know it sounds harsh but at least Tibalt gives you a chance at something tangible in hand the turn he comes into play, two full turns sooner than JLG. The very fact that we can make any correlation to Tibalt should be like the biggest red flag in the history of Magic. But, hey, in a world where I just forked out $20 a piece for a 7 mana walker, what the hell.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Except for the fact that putting 1 (一, ein, uno, un, один) card in the GY per turn for 4 mana is a terrible, terrible rate.
I hate standard
Modern
WUBRGLantern ControlWUBRG
URStormUR
Legacy
UUUHigh TideUUU
It will have a role in standard in blue control decks but no one will want this card once it rotates. It's really bad and it's only saved by being the win-con and engine that fits the most.
His crapiness actual helps him survive, nobody wants to attack him with his 6 loyality, but they will have to, just to stop the ultimate ; and in that case you at least get a "potential" bounce out of him, if thats really worth it (mostly not, but at least you have the option).
All he does is +1 all day, doing fairly nothing in the process, but nobody wants to kill him either.
Works especially good in combination with some defensive dudes, but then again, you could also simply play Kiora, which is superior to him anyway, both on the card advantage and ultimate.
4 mana is just a bad spot, this Jace would be perfect at 3 mana (then even with 3 starting loyality and adjusted loyality values for the ultimate aswell).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
https://mobile.twitter.com/thepchapin/status/190661770560540673
EDH:
Niv-Mizzet
Legacy:
The Rack
Modern
Venser, the Sojourner Control
Never trust pro's during spoiler season. All they do is hype cards, it's part of their job description unless they're not a writer anywhere.
That's a little bit unfair, Chapin loves terrible cards.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.