You should be expecting a reply soon enough, since, you know, the troll wasn't a troll and all.
Cards that give your opponent a choice are bad if the choices can't be controlled/influenced. Intuition and gifts ungiven are examples of choices that you basicly control. You know you're gonna get some card advantage and you even know pretty much wich cardsBrowbeat and this thing are choices that are 100% out of your hand. It will never work out as you want it. When you need burn, this is a creature and when you need a creature this becomes burn. Same thing like browbeat really.
The illusion of choice that this card provides is not really a choice at all. If you build your deck correctly this card is actually less of a choice than anything. If I play it early and you take 4 damage, well that is just advancing my goal isn't it. If I play it late when you can't risk going into burn range and you have to let it into play that's pretty bad too. In modern if i can threaten a bushwhacker in hand, that isn't really a choice either, you are now in a position where you lose/lose, and the choice is not only not there but this card is the only one that could have provided that.
Browbeat theoretically is the same thing. If I burn you hard for X turns and then on turn 4 hit you with BB, your going to let me draw 3. The problem with the comparison is BB is just not sever a penalty enough for the mana investment, this card is.
What if Browbeat cost 1? Would you run it then? I would. Browbeat is just not a great comparison point.
im curious about this dies to removal vs opponents choice argument.
so how many people while playing their standard deck would choose to take 4 damage on turn 1. i want to know what you yourself would choose if you were playing your deck at an event? if you want to list your current standard deck archetype as well thats cool
the game starts with thier turn 1
they play blackcleave cliffs
followed with devil
Take the damage every time. Throwing a burn spell at your face is the worst possible thing a RDW player can do on turn 1. Not to mention it leaves the red player without a way to enable bloodthirst for a t2 berserker, which is the best thing a red player can do on turn 2. As there's no 1cmc removal that can kill the Devil on its own, it's always better to take the 4.
There are a few things people seem to be missing with this card:
1) It costs 1 mana. Browbeat costs 3, which is a major setback for it. A legacy or modern burn deck could conceivably do other things the same turn it plays this, but not browbeat. Legacy and modern burn decks might not even be able to CAST browbeat. This also means you can cast it sooner, when your opponent has much less information to make their decision on.
2) Both modes operate along the same axis. The card either presents the threat of a 4/3 or 4 points of straight burn. If you were to play this card or browbeat against an opponent with, say, 7 life, they would often feel compelled to stay out of burn range and let it resolve to get a turn for answers. But while a browbeat offers the potential to fizzle (drawing lands, cards with low damage output like magma jet), this guy is a guaranteed 4/3. It's a split damage/damage card versus a damage/cards card.
I'm not saying this guy is ridiculous, but he's good. I can definitely see him coming out against decks like affinity and zoo (unless they're running domain and playing untapped rav duals) just because he comes with the option to Dismember him without using a card, but there are many control decks that don't actually want to dismember your creatures for 4 life.
t2 berserker, which is the best thing a red player can do on turn 2.
Shrine of Burning Rage is the best thing a red player can do on turn 2, but this card could potentially go in a deck other than mono-red anyways. There's no strong combo deck in standard, heartless and frites are about as close as you can get to decks trying to do unfair things, which are often what gives red decks trouble because red has few answers. Splashing blue or white or black opens up a lot in the way of answers.
I'm not understanding the "it's bad because it gives your opponent a choice" argument. Isn't this entire game predicated on choices? If my opponent has a blocker they get to "choose" to block, should I stop playing creatures just because they give my opponent a choice? If my opponent has counter magic and I play a spell then I'm giving them the opportunity to "choose" whether my spell resolves... should I stop playing spells? Winning a game of magic (in Legacy at least) is built around manipulating your opponent's "choices", this card does that very well.
Imagine Vexing Devil against say Maverick (since Maverick is so popular right now)
On the play, turn 1 you play Vexing Devil, your opponent looks at their hand, either they have a Swords to Plowshares or they don't, they're not gonna have a blocker that can trade with this guy for a while. They could go fetchland-Noble-fetchland-Knight of the Reliquary, in which case you got 4 damage in but then they can't swing with their Knight which is good for you. Or they could turn 1 Mother of Runes, take a hit for 4 then they could block, tap for pro red, but then they're wasting their MOM activation every turn. Even if they do Swords him before you swing, then Vexing Devil says R: target opponent discards a card and you gain 4 life, which isn't half bad against Maverick. Mathematically in legacy Burn you need to be dealing 3 damage every time you tap a mountain, this guy has the potential of putting you ahead of the curve. Whether or not this can happen consistently with this guy or not needs to be tested.
But to outright say he's bad because he has the words "opponent" and "choose" printed on him is just dumb and comparisons to Browbeat are also just dumb
I think this guy is great, him plus the red miracle in a RU burn deck (blue for delver and brainstorm) is definitely something I'd like to try.
Take the damage every time. Throwing a burn spell at your face is the worst possible thing a RDW player can do on turn 1. Not to mention it leaves the red player without a way to enable bloodthirst for a t2 berserker, which is the best thing a red player can do on turn 2. As there's no 1cmc removal that can kill the Devil on its own, it's always better to take the 4.
This is a very standard centric example. Remember that this card will see play in modern and legacy as well.
And as has been mentioned, this card is probably better turn 3 than it is turn 1 in standard.
But same example in legacy where is it probably better to play this earlier than later, you take the 4 and are probably playing fetches. if you crack 1 fetch and go to 15, it means that I now only have to resolve 5 more bolt spells to win instead of 6, While this does not increase my critical win turn which ideally remains at 3, it does increase the variance I can have in my hand.
The devil in legacy also gets better in multiple. Turn one I play a devil and you take 4. Turn 2 I play another devil. Do you go to 12 and risk me having a hand full of burn, I may even have a Goblin Guide or 4 bolts in hand. If you let the second devil resolve, now you need to expend a card and mana on it which is probably going to be more tempo for you, because if it swings for 4 on turn 3 it still served it's purpose.
You should be expecting a reply soon enough, since, you know, the troll wasn't a troll and all.
Cards that give your opponent a choice are bad if the choices can't be controlled/influenced. Intuition and gifts ungiven are examples of choices that you basicly control. You know you're gonna get some card advantage and you even know pretty much wich cardsBrowbeat and this thing are choices that are 100% out of your hand. It will never work out as you want it. When you need burn, this is a creature and when you need a creature this becomes burn. Same thing like browbeat really.
Stop being a tool or a retard(can't figure out which).
Playing this in a deck where you don't want a R 4/3 or a R Burn during the first turns of the game is just stupid. Just like splashing gifts ungiven in a RDW, it's stupid to splash this into Stoneblade.
Let's see what worst 1st drops RDW/burn players play today. In the creature spot Goblin Guide(the only CMC 1 that sees play?) and Lava Spike(3 dmg sorcery to the face).
Lava Spike will never be a creature, Goblin Guide will never be a burn - you might haste him in at turn 7, but that's quite unlikely. This card might never be that Lava Spike that you need, but it's still better than a Goblin Guide. This card might never be that Goblin Guide you need, but it's still better than Lava Spike.
Now we can argue about how Lava Spike is inferior to Lightning Bolt and why it should never see play(still the best 5-8 lightning bolt you can get). Or how Goblin Guide is just straight awful and always stops your enemy from mana fizzling and gives him tempo.
Yes but to my point, the card can be played in any format which I do believe I wrote and you could fundamentally have read.
Not for nothing Blackcleave -> Devil could EASILY happen in modern.
Card is good, and it is a skill tester which is good for the game. If you don't think the card is at least good for a few specific decks, your wrong.
Who are you even talking to? I was not replying to your post and was not discussing the viability of this card in non-Standard formats. The post I was replying to specifically mentioned Standard. It asked a question regarding what people would do if this card was played on turn 1 following a Blackcleave Cliffs IN STANDARD. Please read what you are replying to. It's really easy--probably even easier than using the correct form of "you're."
Lava Spike will never be a creature, Goblin Guide will never be a burn - you might haste him in at turn 7, but that's quite unlikely. This card might never be that Lava Spike that you need, but it's still better than a Goblin Guide. This card might never be that Goblin Guide you need, but it's still better than Lava Spike.
.
But never when you need it to be. Lava spike wil alway be 3 dmg to your opponent, not a blank that stares at a goyf for a few turns.
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Stop being a tool or a retard(can't figure out which).
Playing this in a deck where you don't want a R 4/3 or a R Burn during the first turns of the game is just stupid. Just like splashing gifts ungiven in a RDW, it's stupid to splash this into Stoneblade.
Let's see what worst 1st drops RDW/burn players play today. In the creature spot Goblin Guide(the only CMC 1 that sees play?) and Lava Spike(3 dmg sorcery to the face).
Lava Spike will never be a creature, Goblin Guide will never be a burn - you might haste him in at turn 7, but that's quite unlikely. This card might never be that Lava Spike that you need, but it's still better than a Goblin Guide. This card might never be that Goblin Guide you need, but it's still better than Lava Spike.
Now we can argue about how Lava Spike is inferior to Lightning Bolt and why it should never see play(still the best 5-8 lightning bolt you can get). Or how Goblin Guide is just straight awful and always stops your enemy from mana fizzling and gives him tempo.
In two pages you've managed to call others a tool, retard, and troll. I think you need to look up those terms and see what they really mean.
If you think this card is better than either Goblin or Lave Spike, you're just wrong, but arguing is useless since you are never going to get it it seems.
When one's entire game is predicated on scrabbling for exactly the right amount of damage, letting your opponent choose how it gets there is not ideal.
I do really like watching legit, long-time red players trying to argue reasonable, solvent points with net-deckers.
lol really? A lightning bolt does 1 mana 3 damage in burn. How is a card that deals 1 mana 4 damage worse? Even if the opponent choosis to take the damage, its busted.
For starters it can't kill a creature. On top of that it's not always 4 damage. Sometimes you play it and they give you a creature, which late game when your opponent is at 3 life and has a blocker or two isn't as good as lightning bolt.
At best a 4/3 for 1 mana. At worst 4 damage to your opponent. Great card.
That's backwards. 4 damage to your opponent isn't worst case. It's BEST case.
If your opponent can't immediately deal with a 4/3, he'll take the damage. That's your best case. If he, through blockers, removal, or whatever, isn't worried about the creature, he'll let you have it, so that's actually your worst case. Situations where you reckless charge it or kill their only defense against it after playing it or otherwise somehow "trick" your opponent into a situation where they take any more than 4 are going to be extremely rare.
The way I look at this card, it's like a Lava Spike that often does 4 and often does nothing useful whatsoever. I think it will do 4 often enough that it's worth testing with, but if anything, this is "playable," not "fantastic."
That's backwards. 4 damage to your opponent isn't worst case. It's BEST case.
If your opponent can't immediately deal with a 4/3, he'll take the damage. That's your best case. If he, through blockers, removal, or whatever, isn't worried about the creature, he'll let you have it, so that's actually your worst case. Situations where you reckless charge it or kill their only defense against it after playing it or otherwise somehow "trick" your opponent into a situation where they take any more than 4 are going to be extremely rare.
The way I look at this card, it's like a Lava Spike that often does 4 and often does nothing useful whatsoever. I think it will do 4 often enough that it's worth testing with, but if anything, this is "playable," not "fantastic."
I should clarify that I'm talking about my playgroup. I know that no one has a response for either outcome that fast.
That's backwards. 4 damage to your opponent isn't worst case. It's BEST case.
If your opponent can't immediately deal with a 4/3, he'll take the damage. That's your best case. If he, through blockers, removal, or whatever, isn't worried about the creature, he'll let you have it, so that's actually your worst case. Situations where you reckless charge it or kill their only defense against it after playing it or otherwise somehow "trick" your opponent into a situation where they take any more than 4 are going to be extremely rare.
The way I look at this card, it's like a Lava Spike that often does 4 and often does nothing useful whatsoever. I think it will do 4 often enough that it's worth testing with, but if anything, this is "playable," not "fantastic."
yup. it's playable but not at all super great.
also for those who have forgotten grim lavamancer is standard legal and will be a game changeer with this devil. turn 1 lava mancer turn 2 this guy. if your opp takes 4 then you got fuel for your lavamancer if not you got a 4/3 beater. put out a lavamancer treat and it might resolve. early game.
also we have timelys still so this guy won't see real play till timely go's away.
I think the people who think it's just a juiced Lava spike are more or less trying to compare it Bolt. The straight up and down in a vacuum analysis is likely close to what you're saying to but to think that the worse case is that you get a 4/3 creature your opponent will chump highly underestimate RDW abillity to get damage through and thwart blocking plans.
You cannot unearth a Lava Spike! you can't give your lava spike haste with a kicked goblin. You can't pay 1 to return a Lava Spike from your graveyard to plan give it haste and deal 4. You can't fling a Lava Spike (your worst case was him sitting in play). You can't teetering peaks your lava spike.
This guy is the nuts because he is a creature that can be manipulated from the graveyard and boosted by other creatures and spells.
I just love that the arguments you use to make this card good all require you to play other cards that are not good.
You can't fling a Lava Spike (your worst case was him sitting in play).
Hmm, maybe him sitting in play ISN'T the worst case... I actually can't decide whether paying one for a chump blocker, or paying three and two cards for 4 damage, is worse.
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The illusion of choice that this card provides is not really a choice at all. If you build your deck correctly this card is actually less of a choice than anything. If I play it early and you take 4 damage, well that is just advancing my goal isn't it. If I play it late when you can't risk going into burn range and you have to let it into play that's pretty bad too. In modern if i can threaten a bushwhacker in hand, that isn't really a choice either, you are now in a position where you lose/lose, and the choice is not only not there but this card is the only one that could have provided that.
Browbeat theoretically is the same thing. If I burn you hard for X turns and then on turn 4 hit you with BB, your going to let me draw 3. The problem with the comparison is BB is just not sever a penalty enough for the mana investment, this card is.
What if Browbeat cost 1? Would you run it then? I would. Browbeat is just not a great comparison point.
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Take the damage every time. Throwing a burn spell at your face is the worst possible thing a RDW player can do on turn 1. Not to mention it leaves the red player without a way to enable bloodthirst for a t2 berserker, which is the best thing a red player can do on turn 2. As there's no 1cmc removal that can kill the Devil on its own, it's always better to take the 4.
Standard: W/R Aggro
1) It costs 1 mana. Browbeat costs 3, which is a major setback for it. A legacy or modern burn deck could conceivably do other things the same turn it plays this, but not browbeat. Legacy and modern burn decks might not even be able to CAST browbeat. This also means you can cast it sooner, when your opponent has much less information to make their decision on.
2) Both modes operate along the same axis. The card either presents the threat of a 4/3 or 4 points of straight burn. If you were to play this card or browbeat against an opponent with, say, 7 life, they would often feel compelled to stay out of burn range and let it resolve to get a turn for answers. But while a browbeat offers the potential to fizzle (drawing lands, cards with low damage output like magma jet), this guy is a guaranteed 4/3. It's a split damage/damage card versus a damage/cards card.
I'm not saying this guy is ridiculous, but he's good. I can definitely see him coming out against decks like affinity and zoo (unless they're running domain and playing untapped rav duals) just because he comes with the option to Dismember him without using a card, but there are many control decks that don't actually want to dismember your creatures for 4 life.
Shrine of Burning Rage is the best thing a red player can do on turn 2, but this card could potentially go in a deck other than mono-red anyways. There's no strong combo deck in standard, heartless and frites are about as close as you can get to decks trying to do unfair things, which are often what gives red decks trouble because red has few answers. Splashing blue or white or black opens up a lot in the way of answers.
Imagine Vexing Devil against say Maverick (since Maverick is so popular right now)
On the play, turn 1 you play Vexing Devil, your opponent looks at their hand, either they have a Swords to Plowshares or they don't, they're not gonna have a blocker that can trade with this guy for a while. They could go fetchland-Noble-fetchland-Knight of the Reliquary, in which case you got 4 damage in but then they can't swing with their Knight which is good for you. Or they could turn 1 Mother of Runes, take a hit for 4 then they could block, tap for pro red, but then they're wasting their MOM activation every turn. Even if they do Swords him before you swing, then Vexing Devil says R: target opponent discards a card and you gain 4 life, which isn't half bad against Maverick. Mathematically in legacy Burn you need to be dealing 3 damage every time you tap a mountain, this guy has the potential of putting you ahead of the curve. Whether or not this can happen consistently with this guy or not needs to be tested.
But to outright say he's bad because he has the words "opponent" and "choose" printed on him is just dumb and comparisons to Browbeat are also just dumb
I think this guy is great, him plus the red miracle in a RU burn deck (blue for delver and brainstorm) is definitely something I'd like to try.
This is a very standard centric example. Remember that this card will see play in modern and legacy as well.
And as has been mentioned, this card is probably better turn 3 than it is turn 1 in standard.
But same example in legacy where is it probably better to play this earlier than later, you take the 4 and are probably playing fetches. if you crack 1 fetch and go to 15, it means that I now only have to resolve 5 more bolt spells to win instead of 6, While this does not increase my critical win turn which ideally remains at 3, it does increase the variance I can have in my hand.
The devil in legacy also gets better in multiple. Turn one I play a devil and you take 4. Turn 2 I play another devil. Do you go to 12 and risk me having a hand full of burn, I may even have a Goblin Guide or 4 bolts in hand. If you let the second devil resolve, now you need to expend a card and mana on it which is probably going to be more tempo for you, because if it swings for 4 on turn 3 it still served it's purpose.
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Stop being a tool or a retard(can't figure out which).
Playing this in a deck where you don't want a R 4/3 or a R Burn during the first turns of the game is just stupid. Just like splashing gifts ungiven in a RDW, it's stupid to splash this into Stoneblade.
Let's see what worst 1st drops RDW/burn players play today. In the creature spot Goblin Guide(the only CMC 1 that sees play?) and Lava Spike(3 dmg sorcery to the face).
Lava Spike will never be a creature, Goblin Guide will never be a burn - you might haste him in at turn 7, but that's quite unlikely. This card might never be that Lava Spike that you need, but it's still better than a Goblin Guide. This card might never be that Goblin Guide you need, but it's still better than Lava Spike.
Now we can argue about how Lava Spike is inferior to Lightning Bolt and why it should never see play(still the best 5-8 lightning bolt you can get). Or how Goblin Guide is just straight awful and always stops your enemy from mana fizzling and gives him tempo.
Flaming warning issued. -viper
Of course it's a standard-centric example. The question was about standard. Reading is fundamental.
Standard: W/R Aggro
Not for nothing Blackcleave -> Devil could EASILY happen in modern.
Card is good, and it is a skill tester which is good for the game. If you don't think the card is at least good for a few specific decks, your wrong.
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Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
Um... Chain Lightning has something to say about that comment.
Who are you even talking to? I was not replying to your post and was not discussing the viability of this card in non-Standard formats. The post I was replying to specifically mentioned Standard. It asked a question regarding what people would do if this card was played on turn 1 following a Blackcleave Cliffs IN STANDARD. Please read what you are replying to. It's really easy--probably even easier than using the correct form of "you're."
Standard: W/R Aggro
But never when you need it to be. Lava spike wil alway be 3 dmg to your opponent, not a blank that stares at a goyf for a few turns.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
In two pages you've managed to call others a tool, retard, and troll. I think you need to look up those terms and see what they really mean.
If you think this card is better than either Goblin or Lave Spike, you're just wrong, but arguing is useless since you are never going to get it it seems.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Standard
GBWJunk ReanimatorWBG
EDH
BShirei, Shizo's CaretakerB
RGBorborygmos EnragedGR
I do really like watching legit, long-time red players trying to argue reasonable, solvent points with net-deckers.
Card is cool. People will try it. It's happening.
----
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Child of Alara:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:symw::symu:Hanna, Ship's Navigator:symw::symu:
:symg::symu::symb:The Mimeoplasm:symg::symu::symb:
For starters it can't kill a creature. On top of that it's not always 4 damage. Sometimes you play it and they give you a creature, which late game when your opponent is at 3 life and has a blocker or two isn't as good as lightning bolt.
Rafiq of the Many UWG
Sedris, the Traitor King URB
Kaalia of the Vast RWB
Savra, Queen of Golgari GB
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice GW
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails EquipmentW
It is neither of those things. Think about that for a while if you don't get it.
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That's backwards. 4 damage to your opponent isn't worst case. It's BEST case.
If your opponent can't immediately deal with a 4/3, he'll take the damage. That's your best case. If he, through blockers, removal, or whatever, isn't worried about the creature, he'll let you have it, so that's actually your worst case. Situations where you reckless charge it or kill their only defense against it after playing it or otherwise somehow "trick" your opponent into a situation where they take any more than 4 are going to be extremely rare.
The way I look at this card, it's like a Lava Spike that often does 4 and often does nothing useful whatsoever. I think it will do 4 often enough that it's worth testing with, but if anything, this is "playable," not "fantastic."
I should clarify that I'm talking about my playgroup. I know that no one has a response for either outcome that fast.
Me likey.
yup. it's playable but not at all super great.
also for those who have forgotten grim lavamancer is standard legal and will be a game changeer with this devil. turn 1 lava mancer turn 2 this guy. if your opp takes 4 then you got fuel for your lavamancer if not you got a 4/3 beater. put out a lavamancer treat and it might resolve. early game.
also we have timelys still so this guy won't see real play till timely go's away.
I just love that the arguments you use to make this card good all require you to play other cards that are not good.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Hmm, maybe him sitting in play ISN'T the worst case... I actually can't decide whether paying one for a chump blocker, or paying three and two cards for 4 damage, is worse.