Terrible card. It gives your opponent the choice of what hurts less. 4/3 is good, but it will always come out in the way that is worst for you. Good on T1 maybe, but that's about it.
Going to disagree with you here; mid/late game, this feels more like a trap. Cast it when the 'right play' is obvious--you need a creature, so they take the 4 damage instead--then you dome them with Brimstone Volley. 9 damage, over 2 cards and 4 mana, is still pretty good, or so I hear. More often than not, you'll cast this when you can get advantage on the expected choice--and once people get burned on it, then they're playing the odds, since the 'obvious' choice might (or might not) be a trap. Granted, you can't just shoehorn it into any deck ever, but it will see play in multiple formats.
I do know know which junk of a zoo decks you have been playing against. In zoo, a turn 1 4 damage is always and I mean always a good thing. Vexing devil being dead also has synergy with gofy. Oh and just for you info, Wild nacatl was banned, and zoo has looking for a good replacement ever since.
Clearly you DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. So please do some reading, play against REAL zoo decks and then talk.
This is not the replacement for Nacatl. Nacatl was good because it was a CREATURE. This is not a creature. This is a burn spell. If it is a creature, it is because the opponent wanted it to be a creature, which means it is irrelevant, and playing irrelevant spells is bad.
People still play lava spike in legacy,one more damage seems pretty good.
You are missing his point. The problem with this card in Legacy, is that Lava Spike is better than the Devil. The one damage is great on turn 1, but on turn 3 in Legacy, a 4/3 isn't good enough. Lava Spike is a very good top deck, this is a terrible top deck.
No one has said it will be chump blocked if it resolves on turn 1. We have said it will get chump blocked when it resolves on turn 3.
You're argument that if it resolves on turn 1 it will deal at least 4 is wrong. If it resolves on turn one it is getting snagged or otherwise removed.
Pretty sure the person I quoted was implying that. And again, most all good aggro/aggresive creatures (Nacatl, Guide, Gravecrawler, Goyf, Ape, Lion) get chump blocked if they resolve on turn 3. I don't see that as being a valid argument, honestly.
It will get snagged. What if my opponent isn't playing blue? Then what? "It will get snagged". Can't you say the same thing about every non-shroud creature in the format right now? Turn 1 Noble? Snagged. Turn 2 swinging Champion after your opponet cast GTTF? Snagged. Turn 1 Delver? Snagged. I don't think that's a fair agument. Slip doesn't kill it without Morbid Trigger. Blast can't kill it. If your opponent Dismember's it, they're still down 4 life to kill your 1 drop. That's fine with me. Any other removal, they're using a 2-3 mana removal spell on my 1 drop. Again, fine with me.
As much as I like this guy, he's not good in Zoo. Steppe Lynx and Kird Ape are far superior.
I am not saying to replace Vexing devil with Kirk ape or Steppe Lynx in modern zoo, just replacing the spot where Wild nacatl used to be, before it got banned.
Just think...
Turn 1 : Steppe lynx
Turn 2 : Vexing devil and kird ape.
I do believe the opponent will think twice before taking that 4 damage. Btw Zoo purpose is to always end games fast. Vexing devil fits that purpose well.
Ah, pre-orders are CRAZY as usual. Goblin Guide is less than $5 but this is going for $10?!? REALLY? I don't think GG ever went for $10 even when it was played in two Tier 1 decks (Boros, RDW) in Standard as well as Extended and Legacy!
Guild hit 10-12 during its height of use and is now a strictly eternal card that has been event decked and GP promo'd.
Ah, pre-orders are CRAZY as usual. Goblin Guide is less than $5 but this is going for $10?!? REALLY? I don't think GG ever went for $10 even when it was played in two Tier 1 decks (Boros, RDW) in Standard as well as Extended and Legacy!
GG did cost $10 at its height of Standard playability. Not more than than, but I remember my friend getting ripped off when he though they were only $5 sometime last year.
My plan to get this card is to let the price drop after people who try to make it work in Standard fail. This card needs testing though, but I think it is good enough for Modern/Legacy.
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I could actually see some fun black red aggro deck that runs torpor orb with this guy, the new undying demon, and necrogen scudder. The nice part about this is that topor orb hoses about 1/4 of the competitive creatures in standard right now as well as being awesome with this deck
Pretty sure the person I quoted was implying that. And again, most all good aggro creatures (Nacatl, Guide, Goyf, Ape, Lion) get chump blocked if it resolves on turn 3. I don't see that as being a valid argument, honestly.
It will get snagged. What if my opponent isn't playing blue? Then what? "It will get snagged". Can't you say the same thing about every non-shroud creature in the format right now? Turn 1 Noble? Snagged. Turn 2 swinging Champion after your opponet cast GTTF? Snagged. Turn 1 Delver? Snagged. I don't think that's a fair agument. Slip doesn't kill it without Morbid Trigger. Blast can't kill it. If your opponent Dismember's it, they're still down 4 life to kill your 1 drop. That's fine with me. Any other removal, they're using a 2-3 mana removal spell on my 1 drop. Again, fine with me.
If anyone said they will just chump it after turn 1, then they are going to lose to Devil because they are terrible. And again, you keep talking about him resolving on turn 1. It's not going to happen. I said the only time he resolves on turn 1 is if they have a 1 mana answer, if they don't, they're paying the life. And the red decks in Standard right now don't have a need for a turn 1 four damage spell. They need a creature on the table.
I am not saying to replace Vexing devil with Kirk ape or Steppe Lynx in modern zoo, just replacing the spot where Wild nacatl used to be, before it got banned.
Just think...
Turn 1 : Steppe lynx
Turn 2 : Vexing devil and kird ape.
I do believe the opponent will think twice before taking that 4 damage. Btw Zoo purpose is to always end games fast. Vexing devil fits that purpose well.
This makes 0 sense. Kird Ape/Loam Lion took the spot where Nacatl was. So if you want to put this in and keep both Kird Ape and Loam lion, what are you cutting? You can't say you're cutting a creature that isn't even in the deck.
I definitely gasped in shock when I saw this card (talk about power creep!)
After some sober thought... I'd rather have a Lava Spike or actual burn spell over this in Legacy. Part of the reason mono-R can succeed is that is makes a lot of spot removal 'dead'. Your opponent is sitting with Swords to Plowshares and almost no creatures to use them against. Would I take it over Goblin Guide? I'm not sure... Goblin Guide doesn't give the opponent a choice, and haste is big.
For Standard, I'm not sure how big of a splash it can make. With so many tokens decks going around, there will be lots of chump blockers. Still, it will be worth exploring as any 4/3 for 1 would. This is a very hard card to evaluate without playing some matches with it.
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Yeah, sure, cards that give a choice are terrible. Gifts Ungiven or Intuition are SOOOOO terrible. Oh, and so is LotV. Let's get back to playing Craw Wurms.
To be fair, you really aren't giving your opponent much of a choice if you are using either of those cards properly.
I'm torn on Vexing Devil...I understand the arguments against it in Standard, and they make sense (Need to enable Bloodthirst Turn 2, etc etc). Everyone is thinking about it in the context of RDW or some kind of Sligh deck, but I think there might be potential in a non-traditional R(x) deck where you can play him out to gain information or to bait any removal your opponent has before laying down a different threat. If they take the 4 damage, maybe that signals that they don't have removal and you're OK to play another threat, otherwise, they let it resolve and kill it, and you're still clear to play another threat. For just R, why not? Also, people are arguing that this does nothing against resolved Titans/Wurmcoil/Elesh/etc etc...but to be fair, I don't think any Red deck is going to handle those threats any better if it hasn't already won the game. I understand perfectly well giving your opponent actual choices is bad...but this seems to be a good test to see how far they can push that design before a card is playable...and I can't wait to see if it is. I admit I probably play red the least of the 5 colors, though, so what do I know?
Really liking this card. Is it going to be the best thing since sliced bread? No, it can still be a vanilla 4/3 late game. But it has the potential to be a really nice addition to a burn deck.
This is not the replacement for Nacatl. Nacatl was good because it was a CREATURE. This is not a creature. This is a burn spell. If it is a creature, it is because the opponent wanted it to be a creature, which means it is irrelevant, and playing irrelevant spells is bad.
Tell that to a good Zoo player and he/she is gonna laugh at your face, as I said before and I do hate to repeat myself again. PLAY WITH REAL ZOO DECK, the purpose of zoo is to do damage fast, it does not matter if its a creature or a burn, as long as it do the damage quick it fits zoo playstyle.
Tell that to a good Zoo player and he/she is gonna laugh at your face, as I said before and I do hate to repeat myself again. PLAY WITH REAL ZOO DECK, the purpose of zoo is to do damage fast, it does not matter if its a creature or a burn, as long as it do the damage quick it fits zoo playstyle.
Ok. You have still not said what you are replacing in the current zoo deck to play the Devil. Thoughts?
There's some chance of AVR cards enabling some brutal enough Standard Zoo (red-blue with many instants and sorceries? Red-green? Red-white?) in which a 3/3 Stormblood Berserker is outclassed and/or too conditional while 4 damage + morbid for R is a serious threat.
I feel like if somebody has to use Vapor Snag on my one drop, I might be in a pretty good spot.
Not if it was their choice to let it resolve in the first place. You gave them the choice to let it resolve to snag or to just take 4. If they let it resolve and snag it, they had a reason. You're argument makes a lot of sense when talking about Birds and Elves and Stromkirk Nobles, but loses some of its effectiveness when it is the opponent's choice if it even stays in play.
I hope you're taking your blood pressure meds because you're going to blow a gasket soon.
It's certainly either a Nactal + 1 additional power on turn 1, or, if they make me sac it, a Lava Spike + 1 on turn 1.
Either way, it's more than a suitable replacement for Nacatl.
Regardless of your reply, I won't be responding to anymore of your posts if you don't know how to speak civilly to people.
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lava spike isn't playable in zoo, so why replace it with a card that's arguably a worse lava spike (yes it does 1 more damage turn 1. that's the only turn).
nactl can do 20 damage for G, given the chance, and normally requires a card to answer it; this will never do more than 4.
This makes 0 sense. Kird Ape/Loam Lion took the spot where Nacatl was. So if you want to put this in and keep both Kird Ape and Loam lion, what are you cutting? You can't say you're cutting a creature that isn't even in the deck.
I really laughed hard at this. This just prove that you really do not know what you're talking about. Kirk ape/Loam lion was always played along side Wild Nacatl. They did not take the spot, they were already there. Please stop making a fool out of yourself and check the old decklist for Zoo before you reply, for your arguement does not only makes zero sense, its just makes you sound stupid as well.
The card will get released, played or not played, make a difference or not make a difference.
At that point in time, somebody's going to be eating a lot of crow when somebody else comes to this thread and points out some of the opinions stated as fact.
If it is a creature, it is because the opponent wanted it to be a creature, which means it is irrelevant, and playing irrelevant spells is bad.
Strictly speaking, if it is a creature, it is because the opponent thought you having a creature was not as bad for him as taking four damage. That is not the same thing as a creature being irrelevant. It would all depend on the board state. Maybe taking the 4 puts them in burn range and not taking it gives them an extra draw for the out they need to not lose, if you happen have the cards to burn them out - better to not take the four, definitely, but in that situation the 4/3 is not necessarily irrelevant.
I'm not sure what I think of this card yet but I do think that framing it as 'If they pick this, it means this is irrelevant' is just as unjustifiable as 'it's always 4 damage!'.
I don't think these are the kind of mages that want to think twice.
Yep. Red mages wanna RAGE. Impulsive buys for an impulsive color... Actually this is false. The good red mages are a little more rational. And people jump on pre-orders regardless of play style or prefered color. A lot of people fall into the trap of pre-orders. And 90% of the time it is just that, a trap. Granted, I've done well for myself, pre-ordering Gravecrawlers for $4 each, Geralf's Messengers for $2 each and Hellriders for less than $1 each! But that's the exception rather than the rule, it seems. I've certainly pre-ordered things before KNOWING that they were going to go down in price.
My advice: stay clear until it hits $4-ish, which is quite reasonable. RDW is not going to be the best deck in any format because of this card, despite the help.
Not if it was their choice to let it resolve in the first place. You gave them the choice to let it resolve to snag or to just take 4. If they let it resolve and snag it, they had a reason. You're argument makes a lot of sense when talking about Birds and Elves and Stromkirk Nobles, but loses some of its effectiveness when it is the opponent's choice if it even stays in play.
I just feel like there's a lot more important creatures you should be snagging in any deck than a vanilla 4/3.
If anyone said they will just chump it after turn 1, then they are going to lose to Devil because they are terrible. And again, you keep talking about him resolving on turn 1. It's not going to happen. I said the only time he resolves on turn 1 is if they have a 1 mana answer, if they don't, they're paying the life. And the red decks in Standard right now don't have a need for a turn 1 four damage spell. They need a creature on the table.
And you keep talking about him NOT resolving turn 1 as if I care if he does. Will he fit into the current RDW deck? Don't know and don't care. Might he fit into some other deck, or some RDW deck in the future? Possibly! Of course, you've already agreed to that much.
The thing I love about this card is, it puts your opponent to 16 on turn 1. Then turn two, you go to drop another, will you go to 12 or let it resolve? Let it resolve, you say? So you can Vapor Snag it? or remove it? That's cool. It only cost me 1 mana, I can cast something else. Don't let it resolve and take 4 again? Now you're down to 12 and I can still Bump In the Night/Galvanic Blast/Lava Spike/Lightning Bolt/Rift Bolt/Goblin Guide/whatever you in the same turn (or maybe if I was really lucky I Thunderous Wrathed you at the start of my turn! Now that makes your choice even tougher!). Yes, I'm in love with this card. Yes, I absolutely believe in this card. I don't know if some random pro will ever play it in a big tournament, and really I don't care. But I know I will play it and will enjoy every moment of it.
Going to disagree with you here; mid/late game, this feels more like a trap. Cast it when the 'right play' is obvious--you need a creature, so they take the 4 damage instead--then you dome them with Brimstone Volley. 9 damage, over 2 cards and 4 mana, is still pretty good, or so I hear. More often than not, you'll cast this when you can get advantage on the expected choice--and once people get burned on it, then they're playing the odds, since the 'obvious' choice might (or might not) be a trap. Granted, you can't just shoehorn it into any deck ever, but it will see play in multiple formats.
This is not the replacement for Nacatl. Nacatl was good because it was a CREATURE. This is not a creature. This is a burn spell. If it is a creature, it is because the opponent wanted it to be a creature, which means it is irrelevant, and playing irrelevant spells is bad.
You are missing his point. The problem with this card in Legacy, is that Lava Spike is better than the Devil. The one damage is great on turn 1, but on turn 3 in Legacy, a 4/3 isn't good enough. Lava Spike is a very good top deck, this is a terrible top deck.
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Pretty sure the person I quoted was implying that. And again, most all good aggro/aggresive creatures (Nacatl, Guide, Gravecrawler, Goyf, Ape, Lion) get chump blocked if they resolve on turn 3. I don't see that as being a valid argument, honestly.
It will get snagged. What if my opponent isn't playing blue? Then what? "It will get snagged". Can't you say the same thing about every non-shroud creature in the format right now? Turn 1 Noble? Snagged. Turn 2 swinging Champion after your opponet cast GTTF? Snagged. Turn 1 Delver? Snagged. I don't think that's a fair agument. Slip doesn't kill it without Morbid Trigger. Blast can't kill it. If your opponent Dismember's it, they're still down 4 life to kill your 1 drop. That's fine with me. Any other removal, they're using a 2-3 mana removal spell on my 1 drop. Again, fine with me.
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I don't think these are the kind of mages that want to think twice.
I am not saying to replace Vexing devil with Kirk ape or Steppe Lynx in modern zoo, just replacing the spot where Wild nacatl used to be, before it got banned.
Just think...
Turn 1 : Steppe lynx
Turn 2 : Vexing devil and kird ape.
I do believe the opponent will think twice before taking that 4 damage. Btw Zoo purpose is to always end games fast. Vexing devil fits that purpose well.
Guild hit 10-12 during its height of use and is now a strictly eternal card that has been event decked and GP promo'd.
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GG did cost $10 at its height of Standard playability. Not more than than, but I remember my friend getting ripped off when he though they were only $5 sometime last year.
My plan to get this card is to let the price drop after people who try to make it work in Standard fail. This card needs testing though, but I think it is good enough for Modern/Legacy.
If anyone said they will just chump it after turn 1, then they are going to lose to Devil because they are terrible. And again, you keep talking about him resolving on turn 1. It's not going to happen. I said the only time he resolves on turn 1 is if they have a 1 mana answer, if they don't, they're paying the life. And the red decks in Standard right now don't have a need for a turn 1 four damage spell. They need a creature on the table.
This makes 0 sense. Kird Ape/Loam Lion took the spot where Nacatl was. So if you want to put this in and keep both Kird Ape and Loam lion, what are you cutting? You can't say you're cutting a creature that isn't even in the deck.
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After some sober thought... I'd rather have a Lava Spike or actual burn spell over this in Legacy. Part of the reason mono-R can succeed is that is makes a lot of spot removal 'dead'. Your opponent is sitting with Swords to Plowshares and almost no creatures to use them against. Would I take it over Goblin Guide? I'm not sure... Goblin Guide doesn't give the opponent a choice, and haste is big.
For Standard, I'm not sure how big of a splash it can make. With so many tokens decks going around, there will be lots of chump blockers. Still, it will be worth exploring as any 4/3 for 1 would. This is a very hard card to evaluate without playing some matches with it.
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To be fair, you really aren't giving your opponent much of a choice if you are using either of those cards properly.
I'm torn on Vexing Devil...I understand the arguments against it in Standard, and they make sense (Need to enable Bloodthirst Turn 2, etc etc). Everyone is thinking about it in the context of RDW or some kind of Sligh deck, but I think there might be potential in a non-traditional R(x) deck where you can play him out to gain information or to bait any removal your opponent has before laying down a different threat. If they take the 4 damage, maybe that signals that they don't have removal and you're OK to play another threat, otherwise, they let it resolve and kill it, and you're still clear to play another threat. For just R, why not? Also, people are arguing that this does nothing against resolved Titans/Wurmcoil/Elesh/etc etc...but to be fair, I don't think any Red deck is going to handle those threats any better if it hasn't already won the game. I understand perfectly well giving your opponent actual choices is bad...but this seems to be a good test to see how far they can push that design before a card is playable...and I can't wait to see if it is. I admit I probably play red the least of the 5 colors, though, so what do I know?
Tell that to a good Zoo player and he/she is gonna laugh at your face, as I said before and I do hate to repeat myself again. PLAY WITH REAL ZOO DECK, the purpose of zoo is to do damage fast, it does not matter if its a creature or a burn, as long as it do the damage quick it fits zoo playstyle.
Ok. You have still not said what you are replacing in the current zoo deck to play the Devil. Thoughts?
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I feel like if somebody has to use Vapor Snag on my one drop, I might be in a pretty good spot.
Not if it was their choice to let it resolve in the first place. You gave them the choice to let it resolve to snag or to just take 4. If they let it resolve and snag it, they had a reason. You're argument makes a lot of sense when talking about Birds and Elves and Stromkirk Nobles, but loses some of its effectiveness when it is the opponent's choice if it even stays in play.
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lava spike isn't playable in zoo, so why replace it with a card that's arguably a worse lava spike (yes it does 1 more damage turn 1. that's the only turn).
nactl can do 20 damage for G, given the chance, and normally requires a card to answer it; this will never do more than 4.
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I really laughed hard at this. This just prove that you really do not know what you're talking about. Kirk ape/Loam lion was always played along side Wild Nacatl. They did not take the spot, they were already there. Please stop making a fool out of yourself and check the old decklist for Zoo before you reply, for your arguement does not only makes zero sense, its just makes you sound stupid as well.
The card will get released, played or not played, make a difference or not make a difference.
At that point in time, somebody's going to be eating a lot of crow when somebody else comes to this thread and points out some of the opinions stated as fact.
That's the last I'm saying on this subject.
Strictly speaking, if it is a creature, it is because the opponent thought you having a creature was not as bad for him as taking four damage. That is not the same thing as a creature being irrelevant. It would all depend on the board state. Maybe taking the 4 puts them in burn range and not taking it gives them an extra draw for the out they need to not lose, if you happen have the cards to burn them out - better to not take the four, definitely, but in that situation the 4/3 is not necessarily irrelevant.
I'm not sure what I think of this card yet but I do think that framing it as 'If they pick this, it means this is irrelevant' is just as unjustifiable as 'it's always 4 damage!'.
Yep. Red mages wanna RAGE. Impulsive buys for an impulsive color... Actually this is false. The good red mages are a little more rational. And people jump on pre-orders regardless of play style or prefered color. A lot of people fall into the trap of pre-orders. And 90% of the time it is just that, a trap. Granted, I've done well for myself, pre-ordering Gravecrawlers for $4 each, Geralf's Messengers for $2 each and Hellriders for less than $1 each! But that's the exception rather than the rule, it seems. I've certainly pre-ordered things before KNOWING that they were going to go down in price.
My advice: stay clear until it hits $4-ish, which is quite reasonable. RDW is not going to be the best deck in any format because of this card, despite the help.
I just feel like there's a lot more important creatures you should be snagging in any deck than a vanilla 4/3.
And you keep talking about him NOT resolving turn 1 as if I care if he does. Will he fit into the current RDW deck? Don't know and don't care. Might he fit into some other deck, or some RDW deck in the future? Possibly! Of course, you've already agreed to that much.
The thing I love about this card is, it puts your opponent to 16 on turn 1. Then turn two, you go to drop another, will you go to 12 or let it resolve? Let it resolve, you say? So you can Vapor Snag it? or remove it? That's cool. It only cost me 1 mana, I can cast something else. Don't let it resolve and take 4 again? Now you're down to 12 and I can still Bump In the Night/Galvanic Blast/Lava Spike/Lightning Bolt/Rift Bolt/Goblin Guide/whatever you in the same turn (or maybe if I was really lucky I Thunderous Wrathed you at the start of my turn! Now that makes your choice even tougher!). Yes, I'm in love with this card. Yes, I absolutely believe in this card. I don't know if some random pro will ever play it in a big tournament, and really I don't care. But I know I will play it and will enjoy every moment of it.
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