Usually the top 3 people will make the top 8 even with a loss or an ID. what this does is make those people wanna play as the person who is currently 1st in the last round wanna play it out so he/she isn't dropped to like 5-6th seed.
Its not asshattery, magic should be playing not IDing into top 8.
You do realize that by IDing in the last round you are being an ass to someone else. Its not like no one is affected because you decided to ID.
You're not being an ass. That person did not play well enough in the tournament to position themselves for T8 contention.
ddm5182: I think your wrong, The other player didn't DO well enough too be in the position too draw in too TOP 8. Alot of stores I play at even LOVE when you do it so they can end the tournament faster. when I ID too a top 8, myself and my opponent are just "delaying" our game until we know we both get prizes. Its common sense why play for the chance of a prize when you both can get one? Yes some other lower rank person may not get in but they likely didn't deserve too get in because they did worse them me (and my extension my opponent)
You support the player that draws into top 8 and doesn't even play a round over the player that successfully wins his way into top 8? If you ID someone else into the top 8 you are ruinign someone else's shot at top 8. Regardless of your choices 8 people make the top 8. How is not letting someone get an easy draw into the last round less fair than letting the person that had to play all of their rounds out to make it top 8.
Why is playing to win a dick move? It's a tournament, everyone is playing to win.
Why is it wrong to ID in, it save time and you've obviously earned your shot at being in by reaching a point that much higher than everyone else. It's easily the best system in place.
You wouldnt think "man, what a dick" if someone who was a lock for t* with a draw dreamcrushed you to get a better chance at being on the play?
Really?
You're full of it. Arguing for the sake of arguing, oh my.
No I wouldn't. Because whether they play or not, someone is getting in and someone isn't. If I knew them personally and was their friend, then yeah I would hope they would do me a favour and draw me in to the top-8. But make no mistake, they are doing me a favour because I need to win or draw the last round to make it in. I have no right to *assume* a total stranger is going to draw me into the top-8 just because I think I deserve it.
If Wizards could prevent Intentional Draws, they would. The impossibility of that means IDs will always be a part of competitive Magic, and WotC and the DCI can only discourage it.
I think this move might have had some grounding in motivating less IDs, especially if there are players who are locked for T8 with a loss. They can likely bash for the higher seed.
Now if only they'd make a draw worth 0 points.
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lol @ everyone saying they wouldnt be pissed off if they could draw into t8 and got dreamcrushed by someone who was already a lock, especially if their opponent had nothing to gain beyond better seeding in the elimination rounds.
Of course, the lot of you have likely never had to draw into anything more competitive than an FNM top 8 so whatever. There's a reason IDs are common practice at higher level events.
Of course, the lot of you have likely never had to draw into anything more competitive than an FNM top 8 so whatever. There's a reason IDs are common practice at higher level events.
Right. And that reason is that its stupid to risk not getting into the top 8, when both players can draw in. The whole entire point of this rule change is to give players an incentive to not draw in. Give them a reason to play it out. To make it not stupid to risk not making the cut.
I'm curious why you think anyone is arguing that there is not a reason why IDs are common...
lol @ everyone saying they wouldnt be pissed off if they could draw into t8 and got dreamcrushed by someone who was already a lock, especially if their opponent had nothing to gain beyond better seeding in the elimination rounds.
Of course, the lot of you have likely never had to draw into anything more competitive than an FNM top 8 so whatever. There's a reason IDs are common practice at higher level events.
Your argument is dumb. It's like telling someone who wants to increase the penalties for passing a red light if he would feel the same if he would have done that without noticing.
I don't want to bring an argument over that, but rather point out that when we discuss a topic that exceeds ourselves we should try and get the bigger picture. Whether i am or not in favor of something shouldn't be biased over hypothetical situations that may randomly benefit me (not likely) but rather over what's for the better of the community.
Yeah you may or may not feel entitled for an ID into top 8, but honestly from an outside point of view you do not deserve it any little more than other random people in your situation who is facing a not already locked in opponent.
Sure, some people might feel disappointed if they get dream crushed, maybe next time you should practice more or bring a better deck so you are not the guy in that situation.
Your view of this topic should remain unbiased from anecdotical experience or speculation. If in the end this helps to make more matches be played and the better pilots to win more often, which means overall a better competitive environment, then you should be all in.
Hope next time you get dream crushed, whether it really happens or is just your imagination, you focus that frustration into becoming a better player rather than to rant about it.
Do you think the + of slightly higher seeding is within an order of magnitude of the - of dreamcrushing someone?
Anyone that does this is an *******, period, and they will be perceived as such by their peers.
Why would anyone want the rules to encourage that?
Because too often do people see X-1's ID into a top 8?
Because its a competition to see who's the best?
Because even if you X-0 the 0-2 you'd still top 8 based on breakers?
Because people mis-judge the math and ID themselves into 9th?
ID'ing is the exact same thing as dreamcrushing. It removes incentive to keep playing a in an event. It removes an allowed variance to exist within the tournament. A swiss event is designed to have 1 undefeated, 2-4 X-1's and 4+ X-2's where tiebreakers. X-2's should be top 8ing, not people who got lucky and got paired correctly to not have to play.
@ddm5182: Yes, of course if you could make T8 by IDing your last round, you'd be disappointed of your opponent refused to. But guess what? By IDing with you, your opponent is denying someone else the chance of making T8. Someone else who was on the fringe, just like you. Someone else who just didn't get paired up like you. People shouldn't deserve to get T8 just because they get lucky with pairings. They should have to win for it, like anybody else with similar standings.
This change is highly unlikely to stop people from IDing into T8, but it should discourage those who are already guaranteed a spot. Whether it's fair to lower-ranked T8ers is another question, but at least this rule has some upside, however small.
Do you think the + of slightly higher seeding is within an order of magnitude of the - of dreamcrushing someone?
Anyone that does this is an *******, period, and they will be perceived as such by their peers.
Why would anyone want the rules to encourage that?
What makes you think you deserve to t8 over the other player gunning for that spot, just because you got paired against someone who was already a lock and they didn't?
And why on earth is it unsporting for your opponent to decide that, no, they DON'T want to give up an edge they earned so you can have an unfair advantage you "deserve" over some other guy? You want it, earn it. And don't be a sore loser to the guy who couldn't see why you winning the lottery on pairings means he should go out of his way to jump you ahead of someone else.
So, if this happened to you... you'd be totally cool about it?
I mean, you can lie and say "YEAH I WOULD I WOULDNT THINK ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT THE PERSON THAT DID IT EITHER CAUSE I JUST DIDNT DESERVE IT!!!"
But everyone knows you're lying.
So, in reality, this issue is basically
1) people who have never been in a position to ID in anything of relevance and HATE IT because they think its unfair
or
2) people who have been in a position to ID in a significant event and have done so because the EV is ++++++++++ and you dont want to be a douche to the rest of the community
So, if this happened to you... you'd be totally cool about it?
I mean, you can lie and say "YEAH I WOULD I WOULDNT THINK ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT THE PERSON THAT DID IT EITHER CAUSE I JUST DIDNT DESERVE IT!!!"
But everyone knows you're lying.
So, in reality, this issue is basically
1) people who have never been in a position to ID in anything of relevance and HATE IT because they think its unfair
or
2) people who have been in a position to ID in a significant event and have done so because the EV is ++++++++++ and you dont want to be a douche to the rest of the community
Yep.
A few weeks ago I was playing on a ptq, all the other players with my points could draw and get to the top 8, but I got paired with someone 3 points below and he wanted to play, we played, he won, neither of us got to the top 8, I didn't get angry and I didn't think anything negative about that guy, I lost, so I guess the other players deserved better, not because they had better decks or because they were better players (I'm not saying my deck or myself am better than them either) they desserved it because they gained more points in the swiss rounds, just like that, that's how the system is and I'm fine with it
later that night I found the guy on a pub and he bought me a beer =)
lol @ everyone saying they wouldnt be pissed off if they could draw into t8 and got dreamcrushed by someone who was already a lock, especially if their opponent had nothing to gain beyond better seeding in the elimination rounds.
Of course, the lot of you have likely never had to draw into anything more competitive than an FNM top 8 so whatever. There's a reason IDs are common practice at higher level events.
Do you think the + of slightly higher seeding is within an order of magnitude of the - of dreamcrushing someone?
Anyone that does this is an *******, period, and they will be perceived as such by their peers.
Why would anyone want the rules to encourage that?
Not sure if you've ever been to a pro tour or grand prix, but dreamcrushing is actually very common if you're trying to help your friends avoid a bad matchup in the top 8. I'm not sure many people view conley woods as a "*******" because he dreamcrushed at worlds.
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To post on this forum you must...
1. Have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
2. Stubbornly argue for at least 1 page of posts.
3. Regurgitate things you read on Starcitygames or Channelfireball.
4. Hate all netdeckers
5. Claim your 2nd place FNM deck broke the format and Delver is not even that good.
6. Tell everybody that MBC is coming back every time a new black card is released.
instead of rolling a die the player who was higher in the standings after the swiss rounds would simply have the choice to play or draw.
Ew. That's exactly the opposite of how my group plays. We play that if you're down, you get to choose to play or draw. It encourages the underdog to keep trying, gives decks that had a bad hand or mana-screw to recover, etc.
To be honest I'd rather just flip a coin or use another random method, than allow the winner to gain additional advantage. This feels way too much like Gus.... but backwards.
I got excited when I saw the title. I thought they were changing the play/draw rules to something so that playing is not always better 99% of the time.
So, if this happened to you... you'd be totally cool about it?
I mean, you can lie and say "YEAH I WOULD I WOULDNT THINK ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT THE PERSON THAT DID IT EITHER CAUSE I JUST DIDNT DESERVE IT!!!"
But everyone knows you're lying.
Just because you have issues don't go projecting them onto the rest of us.
Not everyone believes the world owes them something. Yeah you would prefer to be given the top-8 spot, but if the guy doesn't want to hand it to you on a silver platter he's under no obligation. There's no reason to get upset or be a douche over it, those are the rules of the game.
So, if this happened to you... you'd be totally cool about it?
I mean, you can lie and say "YEAH I WOULD I WOULDNT THINK ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT THE PERSON THAT DID IT EITHER CAUSE I JUST DIDNT DESERVE IT!!!"
But everyone knows you're lying.
So, in reality, this issue is basically
1) people who have never been in a position to ID in anything of relevance and HATE IT because they think its unfair
or
2) people who have been in a position to ID in a significant event and have done so because the EV is ++++++++++ and you dont want to be a douche to the rest of the community
Yep.
Who cares what you personnally think about it, as long as it is for the better for everyone then it should be just fine. Your comments are really childish, you still fail to understand that whether or not you would want a free ride into top 8 it doesn't change the fact that the 'fair' thing would be to play it out, and this new rule encourages it.
This won't encourage me to play out the last rounds - IDing in is still much better.
It will however make me encourage my early round opponents to stay in the tournament so my breakers are better. So uh, net positive for those that want tourneys to stay at high numbers for the duration?
So, if this happened to you... you'd be totally cool about it?
I mean, you can lie and say "YEAH I WOULD I WOULDNT THINK ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT THE PERSON THAT DID IT EITHER CAUSE I JUST DIDNT DESERVE IT!!!"
But everyone knows you're lying.
So, in reality, this issue is basically
1) people who have never been in a position to ID in anything of relevance and HATE IT because they think its unfair
or
2) people who have been in a position to ID in a significant event and have done so because the EV is ++++++++++ and you dont want to be a douche to the rest of the community
Yep.
Don't call me a liar. You don't know me.
Yes, I would be cool with it. Of course I would be; what grounds could I possibly have to believe I deserved it more than the other guy in contention for the spot? It would be enormously bad sportsmanship for me to do anything OTHER than accept it graciously.
You're not being an ass. That person did not play well enough in the tournament to position themselves for T8 contention.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
You wouldnt think "man, what a dick" if someone who was a lock for t* with a draw dreamcrushed you to get a better chance at being on the play?
Really?
You're full of it. Arguing for the sake of arguing, oh my.
Why is playing to win a dick move? It's a tournament, everyone is playing to win.
No I wouldn't. Because whether they play or not, someone is getting in and someone isn't. If I knew them personally and was their friend, then yeah I would hope they would do me a favour and draw me in to the top-8. But make no mistake, they are doing me a favour because I need to win or draw the last round to make it in. I have no right to *assume* a total stranger is going to draw me into the top-8 just because I think I deserve it.
I think this move might have had some grounding in motivating less IDs, especially if there are players who are locked for T8 with a loss. They can likely bash for the higher seed.
Now if only they'd make a draw worth 0 points.
Level 1 Judge
Of course, the lot of you have likely never had to draw into anything more competitive than an FNM top 8 so whatever. There's a reason IDs are common practice at higher level events.
Right. And that reason is that its stupid to risk not getting into the top 8, when both players can draw in. The whole entire point of this rule change is to give players an incentive to not draw in. Give them a reason to play it out. To make it not stupid to risk not making the cut.
I'm curious why you think anyone is arguing that there is not a reason why IDs are common...
Anyone that does this is an *******, period, and they will be perceived as such by their peers.
Why would anyone want the rules to encourage that?
Your argument is dumb. It's like telling someone who wants to increase the penalties for passing a red light if he would feel the same if he would have done that without noticing.
I don't want to bring an argument over that, but rather point out that when we discuss a topic that exceeds ourselves we should try and get the bigger picture. Whether i am or not in favor of something shouldn't be biased over hypothetical situations that may randomly benefit me (not likely) but rather over what's for the better of the community.
Yeah you may or may not feel entitled for an ID into top 8, but honestly from an outside point of view you do not deserve it any little more than other random people in your situation who is facing a not already locked in opponent.
Sure, some people might feel disappointed if they get dream crushed, maybe next time you should practice more or bring a better deck so you are not the guy in that situation.
Your view of this topic should remain unbiased from anecdotical experience or speculation. If in the end this helps to make more matches be played and the better pilots to win more often, which means overall a better competitive environment, then you should be all in.
Hope next time you get dream crushed, whether it really happens or is just your imagination, you focus that frustration into becoming a better player rather than to rant about it.
Because too often do people see X-1's ID into a top 8?
Because its a competition to see who's the best?
Because even if you X-0 the 0-2 you'd still top 8 based on breakers?
Because people mis-judge the math and ID themselves into 9th?
ID'ing is the exact same thing as dreamcrushing. It removes incentive to keep playing a in an event. It removes an allowed variance to exist within the tournament. A swiss event is designed to have 1 undefeated, 2-4 X-1's and 4+ X-2's where tiebreakers. X-2's should be top 8ing, not people who got lucky and got paired correctly to not have to play.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
This change is highly unlikely to stop people from IDing into T8, but it should discourage those who are already guaranteed a spot. Whether it's fair to lower-ranked T8ers is another question, but at least this rule has some upside, however small.
Standard | [under construction]
It's not like that Top 8 spot goes away... it goes to someone else who thought they were out.
Is it "dream crushing" when you know that if two of the players above you ID, you'll be locked out? (And they do?)
What makes you think you deserve to t8 over the other player gunning for that spot, just because you got paired against someone who was already a lock and they didn't?
And why on earth is it unsporting for your opponent to decide that, no, they DON'T want to give up an edge they earned so you can have an unfair advantage you "deserve" over some other guy? You want it, earn it. And don't be a sore loser to the guy who couldn't see why you winning the lottery on pairings means he should go out of his way to jump you ahead of someone else.
I mean, you can lie and say "YEAH I WOULD I WOULDNT THINK ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT THE PERSON THAT DID IT EITHER CAUSE I JUST DIDNT DESERVE IT!!!"
But everyone knows you're lying.
So, in reality, this issue is basically
1) people who have never been in a position to ID in anything of relevance and HATE IT because they think its unfair
or
2) people who have been in a position to ID in a significant event and have done so because the EV is ++++++++++ and you dont want to be a douche to the rest of the community
Yep.
A few weeks ago I was playing on a ptq, all the other players with my points could draw and get to the top 8, but I got paired with someone 3 points below and he wanted to play, we played, he won, neither of us got to the top 8, I didn't get angry and I didn't think anything negative about that guy, I lost, so I guess the other players deserved better, not because they had better decks or because they were better players (I'm not saying my deck or myself am better than them either) they desserved it because they gained more points in the swiss rounds, just like that, that's how the system is and I'm fine with it
later that night I found the guy on a pub and he bought me a beer =)
Not sure if you've ever been to a pro tour or grand prix, but dreamcrushing is actually very common if you're trying to help your friends avoid a bad matchup in the top 8. I'm not sure many people view conley woods as a "*******" because he dreamcrushed at worlds.
1. Have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
2. Stubbornly argue for at least 1 page of posts.
3. Regurgitate things you read on Starcitygames or Channelfireball.
4. Hate all netdeckers
5. Claim your 2nd place FNM deck broke the format and Delver is not even that good.
6. Tell everybody that MBC is coming back every time a new black card is released.
Ew. That's exactly the opposite of how my group plays. We play that if you're down, you get to choose to play or draw. It encourages the underdog to keep trying, gives decks that had a bad hand or mana-screw to recover, etc.
To be honest I'd rather just flip a coin or use another random method, than allow the winner to gain additional advantage. This feels way too much like Gus.... but backwards.
.
Just because you have issues don't go projecting them onto the rest of us.
Not everyone believes the world owes them something. Yeah you would prefer to be given the top-8 spot, but if the guy doesn't want to hand it to you on a silver platter he's under no obligation. There's no reason to get upset or be a douche over it, those are the rules of the game.
Who cares what you personnally think about it, as long as it is for the better for everyone then it should be just fine. Your comments are really childish, you still fail to understand that whether or not you would want a free ride into top 8 it doesn't change the fact that the 'fair' thing would be to play it out, and this new rule encourages it.
Draws should not be worth 0 points - it unfairly punishes the legitimate draws.
As for the OP, couldn't be more excited. No more snorefest in the last 2 rounds at the top tables!!!!
Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
I used to judge alot.
It will however make me encourage my early round opponents to stay in the tournament so my breakers are better. So uh, net positive for those that want tourneys to stay at high numbers for the duration?
Don't call me a liar. You don't know me.
Yes, I would be cool with it. Of course I would be; what grounds could I possibly have to believe I deserved it more than the other guy in contention for the spot? It would be enormously bad sportsmanship for me to do anything OTHER than accept it graciously.