That's a pretty knee-jerk reaction. The system promotes skill; by doing better you get more rewards. To allay your outburst, the policy is only rolling out to Top 8's.
Skill? Where do we draw that slippery slope? What if you win 5 games in a row, you start your next game with an emblem that gives your creatures +1/+1? When we're intruding upon game mechanics with outside influences, you are entering some seriously treacherous territory.
Turn based games and the question of "who goes first" are old as sin, and while coin flipping might not be elegant or perfect, it has historically been the best way. How do (NFL) football games all start? If its good enough for the top of the league sports, I'd say the less formal MTG could do well enough with it.
Turn based games and the question of "who goes first" are old as sin, and while coin flipping might not be elegant or perfect, it has historically been the best way. How do (NFL) football games all start? If its good enough for the top of the league sports, I'd say the less formal MTG could do well enough with it.
You're missing an important detail: NFL games have two halves and the team which goes second during the first half gets to go first during the second half. So the coin flip only determines who gets the relatively small advantage of going first during the half of your choice.
I completely agree with them doing it for the top 8 of any event. There should be some small reward for being ranked 1st. As of now there is no real difference between 1st and 8th seed.
You're missing an important detail: NFL games have two halves and the team which goes second during the first half gets to go first during the second half. So the coin flip only determines who gets the relatively small advantage of going first during the half of your choice.
People will still draw. Being in the top 8 is more valuable than going first in the top 8. People still ID'd at the PT for this reason.
Also, it is interesting they are implementing this in a best of 3 format. In the top 8 of PTs, they play best of 5, so the impact of going first game one is slightly lessened since you play up to 4 games with sideboard, which can swing a game far more than going first with a fixed deck list that your opponent has perfect knowledge of.
I guess if any thing would get people to think twice about IDs, it would be the chance to guarantee 1st play in a best of 3 situation. But like I said, being in the top 8 is more valuable to most people than playing for the chance to go first, I would wager. Your chance to win is a 0% if you lose that last round and end up in 10th or 11th instead of 4th or 5th.
I guess if any thing would get people to think twice about IDs, it would be the chance to guarantee 1st play in a best of 3 situation. But like I said, being in the top 8 is more valuable to most people than playing for the chance to go first, I would wager. Your chance to win is a 0% if you lose that last round and end up in 10th or 11th instead of 4th or 5th.
If the difference is making the top-8 or not making it, then yeah people will still want to ID.
However, if you know you're in no matter what, then it gives you a reason to want to play it out, especially if your deck is one that is significantly better on the play.
Those who say winning a coin flip in the NFL is a small advantage clearly haven't seen an over-time football game.
We're talking about the beginning-of-game flip. The overtime flip is indeed a huge advantage. I know that there was discussion about changing the rules to fix this; I'm not sure what was decided.
Similarly, the discussion should be about how to fix the problem that going first is often a huge advantage.
Don't think this was pointed out. But players playing their first rounds after 1-3 byes due to PW Points are auto-going second (unless they are paired down). A player who plays and wins actual matches are ranked higher (from tie breakers). I'm not sure how I feel about that, as I got to the point where I'm on the cusp of 3 Byes at my next GP, so it will suck going in against a deck when the opponent just gets to start the match off.
But players playing their first rounds after 1-3 byes due to PW Points are auto-going second (unless they are paired down). A player who plays and wins actual matches are ranked higher (from tie breakers).
This is backwards. Getting byes increases your tiebreakers, since your opponents' average is not diluted with losing records for the first three rounds. Everyone you play will have at least three wins...
Giving homefield advantage is a great boon. Discouraging Intentional Draws, even if only a slight number of instances, is wonderful.
I'm all for it.
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When you can no longer run, you crawl. And when you can no longer do that, you find someone to carry you.
If you have the opportunity to draw into top 8, you'd do it, because if you lost, you wouldn't even make top 8 to make going first or second based on your swiss ranking a factor.
This is a very good move. Single elimination is exciting but a bad way to determine a winner. The dozen+ rounds of swiss before it are more meaningful, so it's nice that they're putting a little more weight on them.
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If the Vikings were around today, they would probably be amazed at how much glow-in-the-dark stuff we have, and how we take it for granted.
To people who don't "get" the interaction with an ID:
Currently, in a 7-round event, a player that goes 5-0 is very likely to be in a position to take two IDs and end up in Top 8. A number of 5-1-1s and possibly 5-2s will join him.
The idea of this system is to reward excellent Swiss performance. Hence the player that takes the 'safe' option and takes the IDs, who will be in the mid to bottom of the Top 8, will face a disadvantage against the player who keeps on playing to a 6-1 or 7-0 record. Whilst overall making the cut probably still leaves the ID as the preferable option, it puts some weight behind not doing so.
There's no real need for this on MTGO as IDs don't exist online - the chess clock implementation allows all matches to be determined with a winner and it's not possible to reach a draw.
Also, the un/fairness of this is not as large as I suspect people think - I did some studies of Standard about 2 years ago that showed that the die roll was (within pretty good statistical limits) irrelevant. Obviously different formats and matchups can affect that but on a macro scale it isn't as big of a deal as people think.
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That's not as easy a solution as you might think - although it might allow you to determine results for games, that doesn't mean that it determines fair results.
For a long and ongoing game, life total or any other measure is not necessarily a fair way of deciding who will win it in the end. Plus, if your measure ends a game but leaves a match at 1-1, then you have to play a "Sudden Death" game to determine the match. This leads to stupid situations where fetchland-heavy decks can't activate them anymore and warps the way people play.
IDs are the lesser of two evils over highly arbitrary decision methods.
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Lets see... you can either ID for a guaranteed top 8 finish, or play it out for a 50% chance at top 8 BUT IF YOU GET THERE YOU GET A BONUS!!
This stupid rule incentivizes one thing: dream crushing. Yeah. we need more incentives for that.
Here's how to 'fix' IDs: restructure prizes to be *MUCH* less top-heavy toward the single-elim top 8 rounds. Anything else is just going to lead to exceptionally rude behavior. Playing it out when you are top 8 locked and your opponent isn't just makes you a huge jerk in pretty much every scenario. Yay for the tournament rules encouraging asshattery.
But the point is that winning the coin flip is at most a very small advantage in the NFL. Going first is often a big edge in Magic.
In the NFL, the team with the higher seed has home field advantage excluding the super bowl. If this is only applied to the top 8 then I have fine with that.
There should be some advantage for being the first seed otherwise it is pointless to have that system and have 1 vs 8, 2 vs 7 etc.
Lets see... you can either ID for a guaranteed top 8 finish, or play it out for a 50% chance at top 8 BUT IF YOU GET THERE YOU GET A BONUS!!
This stupid rule incentivizes one thing: dream crushing. Yeah. we need more incentives for that.
Here's how to 'fix' IDs: restructure prizes to be *MUCH* less top-heavy toward the single-elim top 8 rounds. Anything else is just going to lead to exceptionally rude behavior. Playing it out when you are top 8 locked and your opponent isn't just makes you a huge jerk in pretty much every scenario. Yay for the tournament rules encouraging asshattery.
Usually the top 3 people will make the top 8 even with a loss or an ID. what this does is make those people wanna play as the person who is currently 1st in the last round wanna play it out so he/she isn't dropped to like 5-6th seed.
Its not asshattery, magic should be playing not IDing into top 8.
You do realize that by IDing in the last round you are being an ass to someone else. Its not like no one is affected because you decided to ID.
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Skill? Where do we draw that slippery slope? What if you win 5 games in a row, you start your next game with an emblem that gives your creatures +1/+1? When we're intruding upon game mechanics with outside influences, you are entering some seriously treacherous territory.
Turn based games and the question of "who goes first" are old as sin, and while coin flipping might not be elegant or perfect, it has historically been the best way. How do (NFL) football games all start? If its good enough for the top of the league sports, I'd say the less formal MTG could do well enough with it.
You're missing an important detail: NFL games have two halves and the team which goes second during the first half gets to go first during the second half. So the coin flip only determines who gets the relatively small advantage of going first during the half of your choice.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
And you draw a card if you go second in MTG
Also, it is interesting they are implementing this in a best of 3 format. In the top 8 of PTs, they play best of 5, so the impact of going first game one is slightly lessened since you play up to 4 games with sideboard, which can swing a game far more than going first with a fixed deck list that your opponent has perfect knowledge of.
I guess if any thing would get people to think twice about IDs, it would be the chance to guarantee 1st play in a best of 3 situation. But like I said, being in the top 8 is more valuable to most people than playing for the chance to go first, I would wager. Your chance to win is a 0% if you lose that last round and end up in 10th or 11th instead of 4th or 5th.
Which, in Constructed formats, is far less valuable than going first.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
If all things were equal, they wouldn't have to flip a coin for the NFL would they
They would. They've still got to decide somehow.
But the point is that winning the coin flip is at most a very small advantage in the NFL. Going first is often a big edge in Magic.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
If the difference is making the top-8 or not making it, then yeah people will still want to ID.
However, if you know you're in no matter what, then it gives you a reason to want to play it out, especially if your deck is one that is significantly better on the play.
We're talking about the beginning-of-game flip. The overtime flip is indeed a huge advantage. I know that there was discussion about changing the rules to fix this; I'm not sure what was decided.
Similarly, the discussion should be about how to fix the problem that going first is often a huge advantage.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
I'll defer to the DCI in this case but it seems like a poor choice.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
This is backwards. Getting byes increases your tiebreakers, since your opponents' average is not diluted with losing records for the first three rounds. Everyone you play will have at least three wins...
Giving homefield advantage is a great boon. Discouraging Intentional Draws, even if only a slight number of instances, is wonderful.
I'm all for it.
If you have the opportunity to draw into top 8, you'd do it, because if you lost, you wouldn't even make top 8 to make going first or second based on your swiss ranking a factor.
Really, common sense people.
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One step leads to another. First its T8, then what, Planeswalker Points?
Currently, in a 7-round event, a player that goes 5-0 is very likely to be in a position to take two IDs and end up in Top 8. A number of 5-1-1s and possibly 5-2s will join him.
The idea of this system is to reward excellent Swiss performance. Hence the player that takes the 'safe' option and takes the IDs, who will be in the mid to bottom of the Top 8, will face a disadvantage against the player who keeps on playing to a 6-1 or 7-0 record. Whilst overall making the cut probably still leaves the ID as the preferable option, it puts some weight behind not doing so.
There's no real need for this on MTGO as IDs don't exist online - the chess clock implementation allows all matches to be determined with a winner and it's not possible to reach a draw.
Also, the un/fairness of this is not as large as I suspect people think - I did some studies of Standard about 2 years ago that showed that the die roll was (within pretty good statistical limits) irrelevant. Obviously different formats and matchups can affect that but on a macro scale it isn't as big of a deal as people think.
I run a Tumblr for Magic-related statistics, graphs, and quizzes. Come check it out!
They clearly don't want to remove draws/ID's because they could if they wanted to.
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For a long and ongoing game, life total or any other measure is not necessarily a fair way of deciding who will win it in the end. Plus, if your measure ends a game but leaves a match at 1-1, then you have to play a "Sudden Death" game to determine the match. This leads to stupid situations where fetchland-heavy decks can't activate them anymore and warps the way people play.
IDs are the lesser of two evils over highly arbitrary decision methods.
I run a Tumblr for Magic-related statistics, graphs, and quizzes. Come check it out!
Lets see... you can either ID for a guaranteed top 8 finish, or play it out for a 50% chance at top 8 BUT IF YOU GET THERE YOU GET A BONUS!!
This stupid rule incentivizes one thing: dream crushing. Yeah. we need more incentives for that.
Here's how to 'fix' IDs: restructure prizes to be *MUCH* less top-heavy toward the single-elim top 8 rounds. Anything else is just going to lead to exceptionally rude behavior. Playing it out when you are top 8 locked and your opponent isn't just makes you a huge jerk in pretty much every scenario. Yay for the tournament rules encouraging asshattery.
In the NFL, the team with the higher seed has home field advantage excluding the super bowl. If this is only applied to the top 8 then I have fine with that.
There should be some advantage for being the first seed otherwise it is pointless to have that system and have 1 vs 8, 2 vs 7 etc.
Usually the top 3 people will make the top 8 even with a loss or an ID. what this does is make those people wanna play as the person who is currently 1st in the last round wanna play it out so he/she isn't dropped to like 5-6th seed.
Its not asshattery, magic should be playing not IDing into top 8.
You do realize that by IDing in the last round you are being an ass to someone else. Its not like no one is affected because you decided to ID.