And I hate him for it. I can see its purpose in the beginning set of a block but there serves no purpose for wasting card slots in other expansions with basic lands.
We lost a land art to the checklist cards, did we not? We're just getting it back...
How is it too powerful? It's a strictly worse Tortured Existence, where you have to actually cast the creature first, then have enough mana to sacrifice it.
It's great with creatures that create Tokens, but other than that it doesn't have many applications. Aggro decks would rather play another creature. Control decks would rather not have their creature die in the first place.
I wouldn't say it is too powerful but I don't think your argument that it is strictly worse than Tortured Existence holds. A lot of good creatures have ETB or dying effects that can be abused by this, especially in Standard. For example, you cast Blade Splicer or Snapcaster Mage, sac it, bring it back to your hand and then recast.
You don't even need a creature in the graveyard to do it.
John Doe needs a Wurmcoil. The store owner is selling them for $15. But John Smith has one for trade. He trades his Wurmcoil for a Bladehold that the store owner sells for $20. That's $35 in income that the store owner lost. Now, multiply that by the 30 or so people that play at the LGS and you can see how much money he loses in an evening.
I'd call fake. Picture doesn't fit. The Helvault is supposed to be a magical prison in Thraben, not a statue overlooking the sea. Flavor text is nonsensical and doesn't fit the flavor of the Helvault at all. The only believable thing on the card is the ability.
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"Thou shalt respect all weakness and shalt constitute thyself defender of them."
-leon Guatier Ten commandments of chivalry
If this is fake, I congrat the faker, because the card is just so well designed and the image edition is stellar good. I can see this one being real though, which is great. Power-wise, the card is great. Not insanely powerful, nor weak. People really are over-reacting here. I can see it being played, but not so game warping as many seems to think.
Seems like the formating is a wee bit off, but honestly that's the only thing that makes me think it's fake. Oh that and it should be a rare. Bonkers nuts in the right deck.
I'd call fake. Picture doesn't fit. The Helvault is supposed to be a magical prison in Thraben, not a statue overlooking the sea. Flavor text is nonsensical and doesn't fit the flavor of the Helvault at all. The only believable thing on the card is the ability.
The art is known to be Helvault's. The gallery in the other thread names it so, and it's known to be by the Tree of Redemption, which has a large stone in the background strikingly similar to this stone.
Yeah, if this is real, I don't understand what is "too powerful" about this.
Yeah, I understand that you get to sacrifice creatures to bring back other ones (to your hand)..and why is that so strong? Using up 4 lands to trade a creature in play for one in the grave isn't "broken" by any stretch of the imagination..except maybe in Limited.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
But, it's not. Nightmare allowed you to return it to the field.
How is it too powerful? It's a strictly worse Tortured Existence, where you have to actually cast the creature first, then have enough mana to sacrifice it.
It's great with creatures that create Tokens, but other than that it doesn't have many applications. Aggro decks would rather play another creature. Control decks would rather not have their creature die in the first place.
RTT. Besieged was the only second set to ever have Basic Lands. This will likely never happen again.
It's not strictly worse. Strictly means the card is better/worse in every possible situation. Shock isn't strictly better than Lightning Bolt when your opponent plays a redirect spell and you're at 3 life or have a creature with 3 toughness. Obviously these are corner cases, but that's what happens when people use words incorrectly.
Semantics aside, whoever said this card is Recurring Nightmare needs to...not say that. Being a land makes it better than Tortured Resistance, of course there are both positives and negatives for sacrificing a creature instead of discarding, tokens being impossible to "discard" and being easy fodder for it.
Anyways, I hope this card is real, there are plenty of cool things that can happen with this card. I doubt it will see serious play outside of Standard and maybe block, but it's an effect that isn't really available to all 5 colors anywhere else. The casual applications are all over the place, which should keep it in the 2-3 dollar range like most sweet uncommons.
Great design though...I bet once I read the real Hellvault I'm going to wish it was this one. A lot of random magic players can design cards better than WoTC can.
This definitely looks legit. It's not OP by any stretch. It's a good enabler, and looks really playable overall. If it turns out to be legit it will definitely be a staple in almost every standard deck (at least 1-2 of, only 4-of in decks it enables). For filling a land slot it's incredibly versatile and great utility. It's definitely a card I would like to see.
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This thing is just insane in EDH. I love it, but I really hope it isn't real. Barring decks that don't play creatures, this is an instant staple. Miren, the Moaning Well and the other free sac land are pretty much underground staples already, but the benefits of this are even more obvious.
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Stop wasting your time here and come to a forum that actually fosters intelligent discussion: Fires Rf Salvation
It's not strictly worse. Strictly means the card is better/worse in every possible situation. Shock isn't strictly better than Lightning Bolt when your opponent plays a redirect spell and you're at 3 life or have a creature with 3 toughness. Obviously these are corner cases, but that's what happens when people use words incorrectly.
Semantics aside, whoever said this card is Recurring Nightmare needs to...not say that. Being a land makes it better than Tortured Resistance, of course there are both positives and negatives for sacrificing a creature instead of discarding, tokens being impossible to "discard" and being easy fodder for it.
Anyways, I hope this card is real, there are plenty of cool things that can happen with this card. I doubt it will see serious play outside of Standard and maybe block, but it's an effect that isn't really available to all 5 colors anywhere else. The casual applications are all over the place, which should keep it in the 2-3 dollar range like most sweet uncommons.
Lightning bolt is strictly better than shock. Mindslaver/redirection doesn't count in applying the strictly better than argument. That's like arguing /galvanic blast/burst lightning isn't strictly better than shock because when they are kicked/metalcrafted and then redirected blah blah. Nobody would in their right mind play shock over bolt/burst lightning or galvanic blast. If this helvault is real it's a good utility land.
Who says there has to be basic lands in this set? I know that it is much more likely there is a one of each land in the set but I don't think it is impossible for their to be zero land in the set.
I mean if there was only going to be one of each basic land then I can see it possible that it could be none and would allow there to be more design space such as more cards between jar of eyeballs and this.
There were no basic lands in WWK, you just got the Zendikar lands.
It's so realistic that I must be real... or is it? Or did the fakers just design it to be so plausible that it would fool all of us. What if this is part of some grand scheme by WotC, to inject seemingly real cards into the market to throw the spoilers off. WHERE IS MY TINFOIL HAT?
well. tokens are looking more appealing. dirty scumfork sunnuva.... also, yay undying. this will be in everything if it's real ( i'm betting yes abitrarily)
It's so realistic that I must be real... or is it? Or did the fakers just design it to be so plausible that it would fool all of us. What if this is part of some grand scheme by WotC, to inject seemingly real cards into the market to throw the spoilers off. WHERE IS MY TINFOIL HAT?
Probably not worth the time of WotC use employees just to make fake cards to throw us off. I mean each fake card would basically cost them some man hours which equals real cash.
Especially when they have clamped down on leaks so well.
Notice how we had only 1 card before the 1/9 deadline the one from the comic.
I call fake too, and I know something about fakes...
Name is too boring, and too high up. Mana symbol font is too thin, and too large. The mana symbol color is also not distinct enough. See ghost quarter. It's slight, but it adds up.
I also agree it should be legendary, as there's only one of these things presumably. And the flavor text is odd...I expected something historical related.
The filename is reasonable, and if it was intended for tumblr, then the jpeg compression artifacts would be forgiven, but it's a png? What's up with that?
The flavor text also bothers me; not that it's good or bad (it's poor in my opinion, but there's been cards with poor flavor text before), it just seems so disconnected from what's going on in Innistrad at the moment.
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Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
I wouldn't say it is too powerful but I don't think your argument that it is strictly worse than Tortured Existence holds. A lot of good creatures have ETB or dying effects that can be abused by this, especially in Standard. For example, you cast Blade Splicer or Snapcaster Mage, sac it, bring it back to your hand and then recast.
You don't even need a creature in the graveyard to do it.
-leon Guatier Ten commandments of chivalry
My Helpdesk: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7776298#post7776298
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Plot of Dragon's Maze:
Niv-Mizzet plays Realmwright, chooses "Gate". Then a dramatic retelling of the ensuing argument.
The part where it returns the creature card to your hand.
Yeah, I understand that you get to sacrifice creatures to bring back other ones (to your hand)..and why is that so strong? Using up 4 lands to trade a creature in play for one in the grave isn't "broken" by any stretch of the imagination..except maybe in Limited.
Good card seems just that.."good".
It's not strictly worse. Strictly means the card is better/worse in every possible situation. Shock isn't strictly better than Lightning Bolt when your opponent plays a redirect spell and you're at 3 life or have a creature with 3 toughness. Obviously these are corner cases, but that's what happens when people use words incorrectly.
Semantics aside, whoever said this card is Recurring Nightmare needs to...not say that. Being a land makes it better than Tortured Resistance, of course there are both positives and negatives for sacrificing a creature instead of discarding, tokens being impossible to "discard" and being easy fodder for it.
Anyways, I hope this card is real, there are plenty of cool things that can happen with this card. I doubt it will see serious play outside of Standard and maybe block, but it's an effect that isn't really available to all 5 colors anywhere else. The casual applications are all over the place, which should keep it in the 2-3 dollar range like most sweet uncommons.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
It seems like a card that would exist, pretty balanced.
EDH:
Niv-Mizzet
Legacy:
The Rack
Modern
Venser, the Sojourner Control
Lightning bolt is strictly better than shock. Mindslaver/redirection doesn't count in applying the strictly better than argument. That's like arguing /galvanic blast/burst lightning isn't strictly better than shock because when they are kicked/metalcrafted and then redirected blah blah. Nobody would in their right mind play shock over bolt/burst lightning or galvanic blast. If this helvault is real it's a good utility land.
There were no basic lands in WWK, you just got the Zendikar lands.
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
Probably not worth the time of WotC use employees just to make fake cards to throw us off. I mean each fake card would basically cost them some man hours which equals real cash.
Especially when they have clamped down on leaks so well.
Notice how we had only 1 card before the 1/9 deadline the one from the comic.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Name is too boring, and too high up. Mana symbol font is too thin, and too large. The mana symbol color is also not distinct enough. See ghost quarter. It's slight, but it adds up.
I also agree it should be legendary, as there's only one of these things presumably. And the flavor text is odd...I expected something historical related.
The filename is reasonable, and if it was intended for tumblr, then the jpeg compression artifacts would be forgiven, but it's a png? What's up with that?
The flavor text also bothers me; not that it's good or bad (it's poor in my opinion, but there's been cards with poor flavor text before), it just seems so disconnected from what's going on in Innistrad at the moment.