I don't think she's as bad as she appears. Sure I don't think we were all expecting Liliana of the Veil to be a three drop planeswalker (we were probably all thinking a 4-5+ casting cost planeswalker with more substantial abilities because of, well, the Veil), but she's still a fine card. She's affordable at 1BB, her first ability could be better but is still repeatable discard, she can protect herself with the second ability, and that ultimate can be quite devastating and is surprisingly in reach at just -6.
I wouldn't count her out just yet. I think she's more powerful than she appears.
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I think the new Liliana will be far better than people give her credit for. I mean... Flashback is returning, and has anyone actually read this guy? Come on people. Her +1 is not terrible and there will be ways to abuse it. Her -2 is great, and her -6 is the -2, but on many, many prescription medications. Last but not least, she costs 3. She's not going to be JTMS at that mana cost.
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Jace bounce was a -1. He could do it 3 times before he would die. Liliana can only do it once before having to do her +1. Overall very disappointed with her unless we get Madness.
Crap, you're right, she's not as good as one of the single most overpowered cards ever printed. Unplayable!
No, the original only affected one player at a time. This one hits everyone.
I talked to MaRo about this at Worlds back in 05 about the walker designs. The original Liliana was designed to have this +1 ability, the -2 was "Each player sacrifices a creature", and the ultimate was what it is now.
Liliana is good, but definitely not a point-and-click 'walker. In the new standard :1mana::symb::symb: for a Cruel Edict is okay but underwhelming compared to Geth's Verdict and Dismember...she's got the potential to "flashback" that edict while sundering hands though. It all really depends on how much extra mileage you can get out of her +1 by pitching worthless lands, reanimator targets, and flashback spells. Contrary to the article, I think that getting her to +6 legitimately is going to be a lot harder than they think unless you load your deck with Doubling Season or proliferate shenanigans. On the plus side...maybe she'll be a much-needed 3-drop for some sort of B/x/y Superfriends control build (utilizing Proliferate in some capacity of course)?
Fiend Hunter is crazy and if nothing else he's an absolute must-have casual card. White's definitely getting the love on the Horror plane, eh?
Kruin Outlaw is almost, almost better than the Mayor in Werewolves although why not run both?
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Does nobody seriously see how strong Liliana is? Remember what made Jace so broken? It was the repeatable unsummon. It made players lose tempo if they tapped out to play a creature. She obviously isn't quite strong as Jace, but when you print repeatable removal on a planeswalker... come on. Now all creatures will have to pass the Liliana test. So much for a fun format.
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Liliana isnt great in my opinioin, but if youve already locked down the board you pretty much win. Or if your hand is empty it seems pretty damn decent.
I'm still not sold on werewolves. I want to be. They're oozing flavor and raw coolness, but the way their transform mechanic works keeps me skeptical. Barring a moonmist, the only way to guarantee that they'll actually be werewolves is by sitting on your hands for a turn. You can't rely on your opponent to transform your wolves (in fact, I'd expect most players to go out of their way to ensure that your guys stay human as long as possible), and your opponent has the ability to change them back.
Every turn you spend developing your board in the early game is a turn that you have a bunch of underpowered humans looking at you. Every turn you don't spend developing your board is a turn you spend losing the game. Werewolves are going to have to be in their transformed mode to beat out the other aggro decks ( im looking at you, tempered steel), and it seems like it'll be difficult to get them transformed and keep them that way.
Liliana seems completely dependent upon there being a large amount of playable flashback cards. I guess you always have the 'hold some land' option for her, but control decks usually want to have large amounts of lands in play.
-2 seems like too much for them to sacrifice 'a' creature. I feel like this should have cost 1, or, should have let you choose a creature.
The ultimate is also uninspiring. After 3 turns of having to discard cards from your own hand, you should be able to do more than this ability will let you.
The only thing that this PW has going for it is that it costs 3 mana. But I don't see much early game use for it anyway, so, that is also barely relevant.
Definitely a miss, IMO. Liliana 1.0 was better(and barely saw play).
Yes, making your opponents discard every turn or sacrifice a creature is terrible.
I know I sound like an ass, but discarding to make your opponent discard as well DOES kinda sound bad in a control game for me. Maybe I just don't play enough control-style decks, but I don't like having to trade every turn. And while making someone sac a dude every turn isn't bad, you really get to use it once, which makes it a normal kill spell. For something like 15-20 bucks that this card might reach, having it be diabolic edict is kinda apathetic in my eyes.
I love Lilana's new card. Finally a GREATB Planeswalker.
O-Ring on a stick is always welcome.
All the Werewolves so far look very interesting, especially in limited. Too bad I won't be including any of them in my cube, unless I proxy them into Split cards.
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On the topic of werewolves, can someone explain the rationale for the transformation trigger? What the hell does not playing spells and playing two spell have to do with regards to night and day?
Liliana 1.0 is better than 2.0 like a Pinto is better than a Bentley. 1.0 costs 5 and does less than 2.0 does at 3. I feel like making your opponent choose what they lost and save is an appropriate -6 because it separates the good players from the bad just like Fact or Fiction does.
Jace bounce was a -1. He could do it 3 times before he would die. Liliana can only do it once before having to do her +1. Overall very disappointed with her unless we get Madness.
Crap, you're right, she's not as good as one of the single most overpowered cards ever printed. Unplayable!
Each player discards a card? Dearly departed loves this!!! The double card is pretty cool!! The art alone is worth the price of admission!! I love these cards!!!!
My feelings for Liliana are about what they were when Nissa Revane was spoiled. Very situational...why doesn't black get ANY planeswalker that's good right out of your hand!? C'mon WotC, throw us a damn bone! Also, the art is garbage.
On the topic of werewolves, can someone explain the rationale for the transformation trigger? What the hell does not playing spells and playing two spell have to do with regards to night and day?
...What would you choose as the transformation trigger?
My feelings for Liliana are about what they were when Nissa Revane was spoiled. Very situational...why doesn't black get ANY planeswalker that's good right out of your hand!? C'mon WotC, throw us a damn bone!
Sorin's probably in the next set, though he could easily be a BR card.
Wat?
I can 100% say lili is REALLY GOOD.
People are underestimating completely.
She is NOTHING LIKE NISSA.
Jesus.
3cmc for a cruel edict.
No burn? Everyone discards, toss a pharaoh or flashback card.
She's BEGGING for a really cool deck, and she'll get one.
I mean, wow, this is just incredible - I can't see where all the haterade on this one is coming from, especially when it kills the 1/1 that got posted today you all seem to love.
Also love the new wolfie.
I think I'll do naya wolves.
Liliana is kinda disappointing for me. I mean, 1BB is pretty nice, but her abilities aren't really anything to write home about. Even her ultimate seems lacking, if you look at what most ultimates have been historically... Do or Die isn't necessarily going to win games, even if it affects all permanents.
The white Faceless Butcher seems really nice for limited. I don't think at three mana for a 1/3 it's gonna be constructed material, though. Might see play here and there, but Oblivion Ring is better the vast majority of the time (especially since he only attacks for one).
The werewolf is flavorful, but as of this moment I'm not feeling exactly thrilled by DFCs and their implications, so meh.
EDIT:
Quote from arseface »
On the topic of werewolves, can someone explain the rationale for the transformation trigger? What the hell does not playing spells and playing two spell have to do with regards to night and day?
People are more active during the day, less active at night. I for one think it's really flavorful - you can almost feel the dread that comes with the calm of a day's end in Innistrad.
I wouldn't count her out just yet. I think she's more powerful than she appears.
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I talked to MaRo about this at Worlds back in 05 about the walker designs. The original Liliana was designed to have this +1 ability, the -2 was "Each player sacrifices a creature", and the ultimate was what it is now.
Fiend Hunter is crazy and if nothing else he's an absolute must-have casual card. White's definitely getting the love on the Horror plane, eh?
Kruin Outlaw is almost, almost better than the Mayor in Werewolves although why not run both?
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Every turn you spend developing your board in the early game is a turn that you have a bunch of underpowered humans looking at you. Every turn you don't spend developing your board is a turn you spend losing the game. Werewolves are going to have to be in their transformed mode to beat out the other aggro decks ( im looking at you, tempered steel), and it seems like it'll be difficult to get them transformed and keep them that way.
All that said, I freakin love werewolves.
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-2 seems like too much for them to sacrifice 'a' creature. I feel like this should have cost 1, or, should have let you choose a creature.
The ultimate is also uninspiring. After 3 turns of having to discard cards from your own hand, you should be able to do more than this ability will let you.
The only thing that this PW has going for it is that it costs 3 mana. But I don't see much early game use for it anyway, so, that is also barely relevant.
Definitely a miss, IMO. Liliana 1.0 was better(and barely saw play).
What did guy who claimed she did, and you all believed, offer as proof?
HAHAHA!
Now can we finally re-open the threads and speculate on what the actual 5 ability walker, Garruk Relentless does?
I know I sound like an ass, but discarding to make your opponent discard as well DOES kinda sound bad in a control game for me. Maybe I just don't play enough control-style decks, but I don't like having to trade every turn. And while making someone sac a dude every turn isn't bad, you really get to use it once, which makes it a normal kill spell. For something like 15-20 bucks that this card might reach, having it be diabolic edict is kinda apathetic in my eyes.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
O-Ring on a stick is always welcome.
All the Werewolves so far look very interesting, especially in limited. Too bad I won't be including any of them in my cube, unless I proxy them into Split cards.
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...those threads have been open for a while now, if you hadn't noticed. We've had confirmation that Garruk had five abilities since the weekend.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Now it's here.
Three mana no less.
The +1 makes me want to play a reanimator deck.
Some people just love Jace a little too much
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-On Liliana of the Veil
small pox and lily in the same standard? Please sir may i have another.
Haha, no. Dread Return is on the Modern Banned list...it's never coming back.
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...What would you choose as the transformation trigger?
Sorin's probably in the next set, though he could easily be a BR card.
I can 100% say lili is REALLY GOOD.
People are underestimating completely.
She is NOTHING LIKE NISSA.
Jesus.
3cmc for a cruel edict.
No burn? Everyone discards, toss a pharaoh or flashback card.
She's BEGGING for a really cool deck, and she'll get one.
I mean, wow, this is just incredible - I can't see where all the haterade on this one is coming from, especially when it kills the 1/1 that got posted today you all seem to love.
Also love the new wolfie.
I think I'll do naya wolves.
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The white Faceless Butcher seems really nice for limited. I don't think at three mana for a 1/3 it's gonna be constructed material, though. Might see play here and there, but Oblivion Ring is better the vast majority of the time (especially since he only attacks for one).
The werewolf is flavorful, but as of this moment I'm not feeling exactly thrilled by DFCs and their implications, so meh.
EDIT:
People are more active during the day, less active at night. I for one think it's really flavorful - you can almost feel the dread that comes with the calm of a day's end in Innistrad.
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