The reason this card is BROKEN is because it removes a large amount of 'variable losses' that most decks get by flood/screw. Neither of the effects are inherently broken, but because you get either (when both are drastically different and help out in completely seperate situations) the card is TOO good.
The same can be said about Tectonic Edge, and that is nowhere near broken.
1. Zoo hasn't been a real threat in Legacy since......I cant even recall without having to go throught tournament reports.
You'd only have to go back to less than a month ago when Pat Cox won the Indy Invitational. Played RUG in Standard and Zoo in Legacy. (Top 8 was Legacy)
Considering I play Landstill in Legacy, having a 4 cost counter on a land wouldn't make the deck broken whatsoever. When you Life From the Loam, you pretty much always want to be loaming a fetch/basic, Wasteland, and/or Mishra's Factory. When it gets to the point where you are Loaming for the sake of it, you probably are ahead enough where Loaming for a 4 cost counterspell isn't going to seal the deal. It would be win more, imo.
There is a thing called wasteland in this format, and a thing called color fixing. Loam helps you against Wasteland and fix your colored mana in decks that are 3C or 4C (as most Loam decks are 3-4 colors). This counterspell land, unless it produced colored mana, would only disrupt that plan. Maybe as a one of it'd see play in Legacy.
Considering I play Landstill in Legacy, having a 4 cost counter on a land wouldn't make the deck broken whatsoever. When you Life From the Loam, you pretty much always want to be loaming a fetch/basic, Wasteland, and/or Mishra's Factory. When it gets to the point where you are Loaming for the sake of it, you probably are ahead enough where Loaming for a 4 cost counterspell isn't going to seal the deal. It would be win more, imo.
There is a thing called wasteland in this format, and a thing called color fixing. Loam helps you against Wasteland and fix your colored mana in decks that are 3C or 4C (as most Loam decks are 3-4 colors). This counterspell land, unless it produced colored mana, would only disrupt that plan. Maybe as a one of it'd see play in Legacy.
I can get behind this. The card is really good as written. That being said I don't think it would have any effect on legacy at all except maybe a cute one of in landstill like mentioned above, and if you decks is so well turned that you can afford to forgo color fixing then just run a tec-edge, academy ruins, mutivault, etc instead because it will probably net you more value in the long run
Maro said it will be changed for the better. Maybe you can tap it for any colored mana instead of colorless.
This is sarcasm, right? Changed for the better from Maro probably doesnt mean stronger. This was submitted years ago and everyone knew it was op then, so when this card comes out it will look alot different me thinks.
i hope its still a land though that counters, even if in development they tried to fix it by jacking up the price and made it etb tapped and stuff. itd be sad if it wasnt even in the same spirit as the original imo.
And i wish i knew enough about legacy to add anything meaningful to that discussion, but I think im out of my league in determining which side of the fence this card is on. Its really interesting to see what everyone thinks from different standpoints and experiences with the format though. It does seem hella good to me, but it probably wouldnt get banned or anything like that..idunno though so i shouldnt pretend to be good at evaluating cards lol
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
What if instead of the ability costing 2UU, you have to discard a blue card with cmc ≥ 4? (and the land obviously).
Or; U, Discard Denying Channel and a (blue?) card with converted mana cost four or more: Counter target spell.
Makes it more powerful, but more conditional at the same time. And taking an extra card with it would tie in with INN's apparent gy theme as a feeder/enabler.
This was submitted years ago and everyone knew it was op then, so when this card comes out it will look alot different me thinks.
Especially because it was reported that Chan submitted a second, entirely different card which will be the basis of the printed card (as has been brought up, and ignored, repeatedly in this thread.)
Especially because it was reported that Chan submitted a second, entirely different card which will be the basis of the printed card (as has been brought up, and ignored, repeatedly in this thread.)
So, in other words, all we know is that there will be in Innistrad a card that is better (or maybe worse) than a card submission which we know nothing about?
Considering I play Landstill in Legacy, having a 4 cost counter on a land wouldn't make the deck broken whatsoever.
If the card was printed as originally submitted (ignoring the fact that a second card was supposedly submitted and that the card has been changed since its submission) it would make Standstill decks broken in the current meta.
You realize that you would be able to counter whatever they play to crack the Standstill without actually triggering the Standstill again, right? That's absurdly good. Without this card you at least know that whatever you are casting to break the Standstill will resolve unless your opponent wants to give you the Ancestral Recall.
If the card was printed as originally submitted (ignoring the fact that a second card was supposedly submitted and that the card has been changed since its submission) it would make Standstill decks broken in the current meta.
You realize that you would be able to counter whatever they play to crack the Standstill without actually triggering the Standstill again, right? That's absurdly good. Without this card you at least know that whatever you are casting to break the Standstill will resolve unless your opponent wants to give you the Ancestral Recall.
No, you obviously don't know how Standstill works. The standstill-player lets the standstill trigger resolve before countering his opponent's spell. So whether your counter is a spell or a land ability like this is moot.
If the card was printed as originally submitted (ignoring the fact that a second card was supposedly submitted and that the card has been changed since its submission) it would make Standstill decks broken in the current meta.
You realize that you would be able to counter whatever they play to crack the Standstill without actually triggering the Standstill again, right? That's absurdly good. Without this card you at least know that whatever you are casting to break the Standstill will resolve unless your opponent wants to give you the Ancestral Recall.
Thats not right. One of the reasons Standstill is so good is it will resolve, letting you look for counter's for said spell.
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"It's like some kind of Voltron... made of elephants??"
If the card was printed as originally submitted (ignoring the fact that a second card was supposedly submitted and that the card has been changed since its submission) it would make Standstill decks broken in the current meta.
You realize that you would be able to counter whatever they play to crack the Standstill without actually triggering the Standstill again, right? That's absurdly good. Without this card you at least know that whatever you are casting to break the Standstill will resolve unless your opponent wants to give you the Ancestral Recall.
So, in other words, all we know is that there will be in Innistrad a card that is better (or maybe worse) than a card submission which we know nothing about?
Actually, given that they really want to have invitational cards be creatures, the actual card will likely be completely different than the previously submitted card and be nothing like it at all.
So, in other words, all we know is that there will be in Innistrad a card that is better (or maybe worse) than a card submission which we know nothing about?
Precisely. Chances are it will probably be a creature, but that's really all we know, making this a rather silly topic to be speculating on at the moment.
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"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
So wait, we dont even know which card MaRo is referring to? The original or the second? Thats unfair. Why give a hint if it isnt really a hint at all. I feel like we could at least do something to find out what Chan's second submission was. Then we could have speculation as to which one would be changed for print...
A Last Word with the ability to use it as a (colorless) land drop?
Yeah, that'll break magic.
Tacking the ability to use Last Word as a colorless land doesn't suddenly make it broken. At best, it makes it a solid role player, but nothing incredible. 4 mana countermagic is almost NEVER playable, because it's usually the only thing you can do during a turn cycle. The only exceptions are Cryptic Command (Which is far more then just a counterspell), and Rewind (Which skirts the issue by letting you cast another instant despite costing 4).
As for "Making it better", that seems silly. It's well balanced to begin with. Not too powerful, but not so weak that it sees no play.
3UU would be bad, and 1UU would be too good.
And making it a sacrifice instead of discard would be WAY too good.
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Decks: Standard - Rally, Modern - Kikichord, Legacy - Elves
Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
I realize that the card is probably completely different then what is up there, I still have to point out why the posted card is broken. Also, what is the purpose of this thread if we have no information at all?
I play BUG Landstill in both Overextended and Legacy. The interaction with loam is really powerful lategame, in the early game it isn't really going to do much as more colorless sources are not exactly helpful, especially if you are not wastelanding them to get to 6 mana. (Loam+Land)
The card is really scary in Lands (38 Land, 43 Land, etc...) it gives them a much harder lock then before. To lands, the cost isn't a huge barrier, while loaming back three each turn will always win you the game
As far as legacy goes, there are plenty of answers to this plus loam.
The best of course, is to simply kill them before they can get it going, as a 2UU counter is TERRIBLE before they get the combo going.
Other then that, you can use Faerie Macabre or Bojuka Bog, both of which can be played in any SB and are uncounterable answers to anything they're loaming.
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Decks: Standard - Rally, Modern - Kikichord, Legacy - Elves
Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
My 2 copper says that they changed it to "UU, discard ~: Counter Target Spell." Or maybe even "1UU, discard ~: Counter target spell. If there are 10 or more cards in your graveyard, you may play ~ from it as if it were in your hand"
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Current Decks WBR Kaalia EDH RG Meet the Warriors Tribal
i think it may make sense if this card was only usable as a counterspell if it was in your graveyard i.e. had flashback for 1UU or something. fits with the graveyard theme in INN, as well.
from your hand seems abusable from my perspective, but hey. if it was printed with a 'from your hand' counterspell ability that didn't cost 4 to use then i'd play it.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
i think it may make sense if this card was only usable as a counterspell if it was in your graveyard i.e. had flashback for 1UU or something. fits with the graveyard theme in INN, as well.
from your hand seems abusable from my perspective, but hey. if it was printed with a 'from your hand' counterspell ability that didn't cost 4 to use then i'd play it.
Ok... So Inn is a graveyard set.. seriously? WHY does all speculation make every card in the set have to be from the graveyard effects? Not every effect from scars of mirrodin block had to do with artifacts!
On a lighter note, I think the proposed card in it's originality is perfectly fine. And have you played legacy lately? Loam decks aren't any good
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Standard: Esper Spirits-WUB
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
A Last Word with the ability to use it as a (colorless) land drop?
Yeah, that'll break magic.
Tacking the ability to use Last Word as a colorless land doesn't suddenly make it broken. At best, it makes it a solid role player, but nothing incredible. 4 mana countermagic is almost NEVER playable, because it's usually the only thing you can do during a turn cycle. The only exceptions are Cryptic Command (Which is far more then just a counterspell), and Rewind (Which skirts the issue by letting you cast another instant despite costing 4).
As for "Making it better", that seems silly. It's well balanced to begin with. Not too powerful, but not so weak that it sees no play.
3UU would be bad, and 1UU would be too good.
And making it a sacrifice instead of discard would be WAY too good.
It doesn't take up a spell slot. That's the main difference. Cawblade showed us what a few extra spell slots can do for a deck's consistency, and it ain't pretty.
Unlike most 4 mana countermagic, it isn't a dead draw in the early turns, and unlike Traumatic Visions, it doesn't require mana and is cheaper.
I think they have to tread very carefully around countermagic, since the main thing that matters is whether there's a good volume of countermagic (Much like burn). If this was the only good counterspell printed in a block, it wouldn't be anywhere near broken. If it was printed with Mana Leak and and 2 other good counterspells in the same format, however... Yeah.
The same can be said about Tectonic Edge, and that is nowhere near broken.
You'd only have to go back to less than a month ago when Pat Cox won the Indy Invitational. Played RUG in Standard and Zoo in Legacy. (Top 8 was Legacy)
There is a thing called wasteland in this format, and a thing called color fixing. Loam helps you against Wasteland and fix your colored mana in decks that are 3C or 4C (as most Loam decks are 3-4 colors). This counterspell land, unless it produced colored mana, would only disrupt that plan. Maybe as a one of it'd see play in Legacy.
I can get behind this. The card is really good as written. That being said I don't think it would have any effect on legacy at all except maybe a cute one of in landstill like mentioned above, and if you decks is so well turned that you can afford to forgo color fixing then just run a tec-edge, academy ruins, mutivault, etc instead because it will probably net you more value in the long run
This is sarcasm, right? Changed for the better from Maro probably doesnt mean stronger. This was submitted years ago and everyone knew it was op then, so when this card comes out it will look alot different me thinks.
i hope its still a land though that counters, even if in development they tried to fix it by jacking up the price and made it etb tapped and stuff. itd be sad if it wasnt even in the same spirit as the original imo.
And i wish i knew enough about legacy to add anything meaningful to that discussion, but I think im out of my league in determining which side of the fence this card is on. Its really interesting to see what everyone thinks from different standpoints and experiences with the format though. It does seem hella good to me, but it probably wouldnt get banned or anything like that..idunno though so i shouldnt pretend to be good at evaluating cards lol
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Or; U, Discard Denying Channel and a (blue?) card with converted mana cost four or more: Counter target spell.
Makes it more powerful, but more conditional at the same time. And taking an extra card with it would tie in with INN's apparent gy theme as a feeder/enabler.
Especially because it was reported that Chan submitted a second, entirely different card which will be the basis of the printed card (as has been brought up, and ignored, repeatedly in this thread.)
So, in other words, all we know is that there will be in Innistrad a card that is better (or maybe worse) than a card submission which we know nothing about?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
If the card was printed as originally submitted (ignoring the fact that a second card was supposedly submitted and that the card has been changed since its submission) it would make Standstill decks broken in the current meta.
You realize that you would be able to counter whatever they play to crack the Standstill without actually triggering the Standstill again, right? That's absurdly good. Without this card you at least know that whatever you are casting to break the Standstill will resolve unless your opponent wants to give you the Ancestral Recall.
No, you obviously don't know how Standstill works. The standstill-player lets the standstill trigger resolve before countering his opponent's spell. So whether your counter is a spell or a land ability like this is moot.
Thats not right. One of the reasons Standstill is so good is it will resolve, letting you look for counter's for said spell.
Credit goes to Brofoux for the Sig pic.
Current Modern Deck
Black Licorice
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11006564#post11006564
You owned yourself with that statement :D.
Actually, given that they really want to have invitational cards be creatures, the actual card will likely be completely different than the previously submitted card and be nothing like it at all.
Precisely. Chances are it will probably be a creature, but that's really all we know, making this a rather silly topic to be speculating on at the moment.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Speaking as a Legacy player, the ability for decks to Loam back uncounterable counterspells would be flat-out ridiculous and break the format.
Obviously, they aren't printing that card. If they do print something similar, it will have some severe drawbacks, in all likelihood.
Yeah, that'll break magic.
Tacking the ability to use Last Word as a colorless land doesn't suddenly make it broken. At best, it makes it a solid role player, but nothing incredible. 4 mana countermagic is almost NEVER playable, because it's usually the only thing you can do during a turn cycle. The only exceptions are Cryptic Command (Which is far more then just a counterspell), and Rewind (Which skirts the issue by letting you cast another instant despite costing 4).
As for "Making it better", that seems silly. It's well balanced to begin with. Not too powerful, but not so weak that it sees no play.
3UU would be bad, and 1UU would be too good.
And making it a sacrifice instead of discard would be WAY too good.
Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
I play BUG Landstill in both Overextended and Legacy. The interaction with loam is really powerful lategame, in the early game it isn't really going to do much as more colorless sources are not exactly helpful, especially if you are not wastelanding them to get to 6 mana. (Loam+Land)
The card is really scary in Lands (38 Land, 43 Land, etc...) it gives them a much harder lock then before. To lands, the cost isn't a huge barrier, while loaming back three each turn will always win you the game
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Maybe they exile it, then.
JAMMIT DIM! I'm a DOCTOR not a DECKBUILDER!
The best of course, is to simply kill them before they can get it going, as a 2UU counter is TERRIBLE before they get the combo going.
Other then that, you can use Faerie Macabre or Bojuka Bog, both of which can be played in any SB and are uncounterable answers to anything they're loaming.
Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia EDH
RG Meet the Warriors Tribal
Developing
UB Szadek EDH
RW Tajic EDH
from your hand seems abusable from my perspective, but hey. if it was printed with a 'from your hand' counterspell ability that didn't cost 4 to use then i'd play it.
Ok... So Inn is a graveyard set.. seriously? WHY does all speculation make every card in the set have to be from the graveyard effects? Not every effect from scars of mirrodin block had to do with artifacts!
On a lighter note, I think the proposed card in it's originality is perfectly fine. And have you played legacy lately? Loam decks aren't any good
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
It doesn't take up a spell slot. That's the main difference. Cawblade showed us what a few extra spell slots can do for a deck's consistency, and it ain't pretty.
Unlike most 4 mana countermagic, it isn't a dead draw in the early turns, and unlike Traumatic Visions, it doesn't require mana and is cheaper.
I think they have to tread very carefully around countermagic, since the main thing that matters is whether there's a good volume of countermagic (Much like burn). If this was the only good counterspell printed in a block, it wouldn't be anywhere near broken. If it was printed with Mana Leak and and 2 other good counterspells in the same format, however... Yeah.
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!