While I admit a Cancel that can be an early land drop is good, calling it broken or format changing is far fetched. It's still just cancel, which sees little to any play anywhere.
Correction: It's a Last Word that can be a land drop and takes up no spell slots in your deck.
The card is overpowered. Adding another mana to its activation cost would make it... Still powerful, but probably okay.
I'm sorry but at 4 mana it's just a very playable hard counter. Something we haven't had since rewind. Yes it means you can have 36 actual cards and 24 lands, 4 of which are also counterspells. Yes, that's good. No, it's not format defining because it still costs 4 mana to counter a spell, which is fair.
No.
This is a modal card, and one of the modes barely has a drawback (Producing colorless mana won't stop it from being played). The other effect's drawback barely matters when control decks won't be playing it until the late game anyway (And they have plenty of stuff to do in the early game with the mana produced from this). This is a control deck's wet dream; it's 4 more counterspells that are never dead draws.
I'm sorry but at 4 mana it's just a very playable hard counter. Something we haven't had since rewind. Yes it means you can have 36 actual cards and 24 lands, 4 of which are also counterspells. Yes, that's good. No, it's not format defining because it still costs 4 mana to counter a spell, which is fair.
... ... ... really now?
For starters is an uncounterable counter
Once it's discarded for the cost there isn't much you can do about it other than pout
Because it's a land, it's immune to most targeted discard effects, and library cleansing effects so you can't really get rid of it
It's an AMAZING card with virtually no downside.
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
The fact that most of the people here do not recognize it's inherint power disgusts me. How can you all be so blind? I'm losing faith in my MTGS community.
This is four extra counterspells you can put in your deck with no drawback. This isn't about the fact that it costs 4 to use, it's about having a counter in the late game when it's going to matter, even if you used up your actual counterSpells early on. It's always there, waiting, and it allows you to win games in the late game, instead of wasting all your gas and getting blown out. No, it's not free in the sense that Force of Will is free, but it's free because it doesn't cost you any cards. FoW costs you two, it's card disadvantage. This is card advantage. So what if it's a land.
The fact that most of the people here do not recognize it's inherint power disgusts me. How can you all be so blind? I'm losing faith in my MTGS community.
This is four extra counterspells you can put in your deck with no drawback. This isn't about the fact that it costs 4 to use, it's about having a counter in the late game when it's going to matter, even if you used up your actual counterSpells early on. It's always there, waiting, and it allows you to win games in the late game, instead of wasting all your gas and getting blown out. No, it's not free in the sense that Force of Will is free, but it's free because it doesn't cost you any cards. FoW costs you two, it's card disadvantage. This is card advantage. So what if it's a land.
um... you discard it to do the ability, you realize
Yeah, the card he originally submitted was almost irreconcilably broken. I would be incredibly happy to have anything anywhere close to the power of the original in my arsenal of broken counters. But I understand that it would be very, very unhealthy for the game, and probably lead to another anti-blue backlash like the aftermath of Fae. Good thing we know it's not going to be based on that. Can we stop speculating on this inherently busted land they're not going to print and start speculating on something it might actually be?
EDIT:
@Pikjira: that's not important. The fact that it's an activated ability to counter a spell makes it virtually uncounterable, and like people have been saying, it takes up a land slot, which means my deck of 26 lands, 21 counters, 4 sweepers, and 1 creature can now run 26 lands, 25 counters, 4 sweepers, and 1 creature, without sacrificing anything at all. If I draw it in the early game, it helps me hit all of my land drops, and if I draw it late game, it's another counter. Doesn't matter that once I've played it as a land I can't use it as a counter, because it plays two roles in deck building, which is where its true power comes from.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I find it hilarious that in the original thread, all the people were dismissing its power... Despite Faeries dominating the format just a bit of time before the thread was made.
Yes, Faeries would have rotated out if it was printed in Zendikar, but they should have realized just how dangerous this would be if any great control cards (Oh hai Jace) were printed in Zendikar block, since they had something to compare it to.
"BUT IT WILL ALLOW CONTROL AND CREATURES ARE BEING PUSHED!!!"
And then two cards at the center of a control deck were banned a few years later.
um... you discard it to do the ability, you realize
He is saying it isn't a bad top-deck like many, many other cards especially lands most of the time. As in you don't lose card advantage because you drew a "dead card."
Semantics, ppl, semantics...
I'm getting the feeling from MaRo's tweets that it might actually be better than the orginal or at least more universal/useful - this could be really, really good!
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
um... you discard it to do the ability, you realize
Yes. Of course I do. So? Your down a land, and their spell just got countered. Your still ahead. It's not like people do not play FoW just because you have to discard a blue card.
The originally submitted card is at the very upper reaches of what wizards could do without it being totally broken. Colourless production plus 4cc counter is very strong but still within the bounds of printability. Making the counter cost a reasonable amount(3cc or less) even as a Mana Leak variant would push the cards power too high. Running 4 colourless lands which you can in the mid-late game use instead as a Last Word is fine, but running 4 colourless lands which you can use even in the early game as a good but cheaper uncounterable counter is definitely not.
If the card they print is based on the original submission(and not the 2nd submission that he was supposedly asked to make) MaRo's "Even Better" will likely mean more balanced in which case I could see a 1UUForce Spike possibly on a blue land which enters the battlefield tapped(as about the best we could hope for). Or the same land but instead of the fantastic discard ability having a sacrifice ability(2UU, Sacrifice this: counter target spell.). Which would still be strong but it looses the surprise factor and by being in play gives opponents an opportunity to deal with it. Another way they could make it more balanced would be by changing the ability to Negate/Remove Soul.
Whatever it ends up being I really hope that it is a variant of the original submission because as a blue control player it's something i'd want as a 4 off for most of my decks. And something i'd love to try using in older formats(especially modern) alongside Life from the Loam.
The important question is how they're going to put his picture on a land.
My call: He's gonna be in the background giving the finger
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11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Read the card wrong. Thought it was Sac, counter. As discard, it's weaker. Now it doesn't function as a land until you need a counter, now you need to make a choice, that's much worse. My bad.
If this is in your opening hand you may discard this and search your library for a basic Island. if you do shuffle your library afterwards.
This could be done as a cycle.
"New Shock" R
Sorcery
Search for Mountain
the Green make a 3/3 token
the black is a sorcery terror
and the white lets a player sacrifice an attacking creature.
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My new houserules:
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
If this is in your opening hand you may discard this and search your library for a basic Island. if you do shuffle your library afterwards.
This could be done as a cycle.
"New Shock" R
Sorcery
Search for Mountain
the Green make a 3/3 token
the black is a sorcery terror
and the white lets a player sacrifice an attacking creature.
Actually for white, it makes more sense to have protection against chosen color/artifact like Apostle's Blessing, or gain life, which is totally white.. lol But sacrifice doesn't make sense.
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~Never underestimate the power of the full moon to a true blood wolf~
~Reality creates fantasy, and fantasy creates reality, where do you stand?~
~Depression is just us being tired of always being strong~
Representing the pain of the planet, the voice of the forest, and all the creatures inside that want to rip you to shreds
Guys, guys, guys. Look this is really simple. By "better" they mean make it uncounterable, reduce the mana cost by a colorless and a U, give it split second, and make it mythic staple in all constructed formats and ban it a few months before it rotates. ***snicker***
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Current Decks:
Saproling Crush
Faeries WRStuffymare BDiscard Damnation RBLand? What Land?
Actually for white, it makes more sense to have protection against chosen color/artifact like Apostle's Blessing, or gain life, which is totally white.. lol But sacrifice doesn't make sense.
It's definitely possible. I kind of like that cycle of 'opener hand effects' cards, however I find it unlikely due to the Chancellor cycle already existing in the previous expansion set.
Lol @ the people who want it to be more powerful than it is now. You realize you'll have to play against it, too, right?
You mean they're good when they are usable almost all of the time and can be used on turn one if needed? As in Strip Mine is better than Wasteland and that's better than Tectonic Edge. Sure Tec Edge is a great card but it's restricted in what it can do and so is this land as you either play it or hold it back as a counter which screws up the math of your deck in either case, it costs 4 mana and a card to cast, and it can only produce colourless mana. As it is now it will be playable, highly playable like Tec Edge was, but it's not broken like Strip Mine.
It's definitely possible. I kind of like that cycle of 'opener hand effects' cards, however I find it unlikely due to the Chancellor cycle already existing in the previous expansion set.
Hah.. well, you've apparently proven me wrong. Those are cards I haven't seen before, so I'm not familiar with white sac'ing things, although I know every color has done something they're not used to doing, especially with NPH, but still seem's a bit out of place to me. <.>
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~Never underestimate the power of the full moon to a true blood wolf~
~Reality creates fantasy, and fantasy creates reality, where do you stand?~
~Depression is just us being tired of always being strong~
Representing the pain of the planet, the voice of the forest, and all the creatures inside that want to rip you to shreds
Resides within the territory of The [Pack]
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Correction: It's a Last Word that can be a land drop and takes up no spell slots in your deck.
The card is overpowered. Adding another mana to its activation cost would make it... Still powerful, but probably okay.
No.
This is a modal card, and one of the modes barely has a drawback (Producing colorless mana won't stop it from being played). The other effect's drawback barely matters when control decks won't be playing it until the late game anyway (And they have plenty of stuff to do in the early game with the mana produced from this). This is a control deck's wet dream; it's 4 more counterspells that are never dead draws.
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!
... ... ... really now?
For starters is an uncounterable counter
Once it's discarded for the cost there isn't much you can do about it other than pout
Because it's a land, it's immune to most targeted discard effects, and library cleansing effects so you can't really get rid of it
It's an AMAZING card with virtually no downside.
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
This is four extra counterspells you can put in your deck with no drawback. This isn't about the fact that it costs 4 to use, it's about having a counter in the late game when it's going to matter, even if you used up your actual counterSpells early on. It's always there, waiting, and it allows you to win games in the late game, instead of wasting all your gas and getting blown out. No, it's not free in the sense that Force of Will is free, but it's free because it doesn't cost you any cards. FoW costs you two, it's card disadvantage. This is card advantage. So what if it's a land.
um... you discard it to do the ability, you realize
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EDIT:
@Pikjira: that's not important. The fact that it's an activated ability to counter a spell makes it virtually uncounterable, and like people have been saying, it takes up a land slot, which means my deck of 26 lands, 21 counters, 4 sweepers, and 1 creature can now run 26 lands, 25 counters, 4 sweepers, and 1 creature, without sacrificing anything at all. If I draw it in the early game, it helps me hit all of my land drops, and if I draw it late game, it's another counter. Doesn't matter that once I've played it as a land I can't use it as a counter, because it plays two roles in deck building, which is where its true power comes from.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Yes, Faeries would have rotated out if it was printed in Zendikar, but they should have realized just how dangerous this would be if any great control cards (Oh hai Jace) were printed in Zendikar block, since they had something to compare it to.
"BUT IT WILL ALLOW CONTROL AND CREATURES ARE BEING PUSHED!!!"
And then two cards at the center of a control deck were banned a few years later.
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!
He is saying it isn't a bad top-deck like many, many other cards especially lands most of the time. As in you don't lose card advantage because you drew a "dead card."
Semantics, ppl, semantics...
I'm getting the feeling from MaRo's tweets that it might actually be better than the orginal or at least more universal/useful - this could be really, really good!
Yes. Of course I do. So? Your down a land, and their spell just got countered. Your still ahead. It's not like people do not play FoW just because you have to discard a blue card.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
If the card they print is based on the original submission(and not the 2nd submission that he was supposedly asked to make) MaRo's "Even Better" will likely mean more balanced in which case I could see a 1UU Force Spike possibly on a blue land which enters the battlefield tapped(as about the best we could hope for). Or the same land but instead of the fantastic discard ability having a sacrifice ability(2UU, Sacrifice this: counter target spell.). Which would still be strong but it looses the surprise factor and by being in play gives opponents an opportunity to deal with it. Another way they could make it more balanced would be by changing the ability to Negate/Remove Soul.
Whatever it ends up being I really hope that it is a variant of the original submission because as a blue control player it's something i'd want as a 4 off for most of my decks. And something i'd love to try using in older formats(especially modern) alongside Life from the Loam.
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!
My call: He's gonna be in the background giving the finger
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
Lol @ the people who want it to be more powerful than it is now. You realize you'll have to play against it, too, right?
"New Counterspell" 2UU
Counter target spell.
If this is in your opening hand you may discard this and search your library for a basic Island. if you do shuffle your library afterwards.
This could be done as a cycle.
"New Shock" R
Sorcery
Search for Mountain
the Green make a 3/3 token
the black is a sorcery terror
and the white lets a player sacrifice an attacking creature.
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
Actually for white, it makes more sense to have protection against chosen color/artifact like Apostle's Blessing, or gain life, which is totally white.. lol But sacrifice doesn't make sense.
No it wouldn't make the game better.
Would giving blue burn spells make the game better?
Would giving red draw spells make the game better?
Every color has their own pros and cons. Giving them each others pros makes the game unbalanced.
My Mafia Stats - My Helpdesk
G Omnath, Locus of Mana U Arcum Dagsson BUG The Mimeoplasm GW Gaddock Teeg X Karn, Silver Golem
then what happened during planar chaos?
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
tezzeret's gambit
gut shot
didn't make it any worse
—Dr. Cox, Scrubs
They've changed every card to some extent. They have to in order to fit block mechanics or to fix the power level.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Current Decks:
Saproling Crush
Faeries
WRStuffymare
BDiscard Damnation
RBLand? What Land?
In Progress:
RGVintage Liquimetal
You sure?
It's definitely possible. I kind of like that cycle of 'opener hand effects' cards, however I find it unlikely due to the Chancellor cycle already existing in the previous expansion set.
You mean they're good when they are usable almost all of the time and can be used on turn one if needed? As in Strip Mine is better than Wasteland and that's better than Tectonic Edge. Sure Tec Edge is a great card but it's restricted in what it can do and so is this land as you either play it or hold it back as a counter which screws up the math of your deck in either case, it costs 4 mana and a card to cast, and it can only produce colourless mana. As it is now it will be playable, highly playable like Tec Edge was, but it's not broken like Strip Mine.
Hah.. well, you've apparently proven me wrong. Those are cards I haven't seen before, so I'm not familiar with white sac'ing things, although I know every color has done something they're not used to doing, especially with NPH, but still seem's a bit out of place to me. <.>