Hah.. well, you've apparently proven me wrong. Those are cards I haven't seen before, so I'm not familiar with white sac'ing things, although I know every color has done something they're not used to doing, especially with NPH, but still seem's a bit out of place to me. <.>
I don't like Mythics much either, but realize that petitioning for their removal on a third-party forum is about as effective as eating soup with steak knife.
Everyone basically agrees that letting blue do whatever it wanted back in alpha was bad for the game, so I don't really know what your point is there.
And wheel of fortune effects are a special subset of draw effects that can be splashed into red for its "screw everything in my hand, i want something else" attitude.
Not really sure how a 4CMC uncounterable counterspell that can also double as a land if you don't want that is insanely broken, but I wouldn't be tearing up about it not seeing print.
It'll probably get creature-ified somehow. Say G 1/1, Flash, Kicker 1UU, t: add 1 to your mana pool. If you paid the kicker cost, when ~ enters the battlefield, you may counter target spell. ~ enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it.
Which is kinda funny since that card would be waaaaaay better than the land people are raging about. Remember, anything in M:tG is fair as long as you pay an appropriate amount of mana for it and the power level isn't devastating, relatively. A 4CMC counterspell, that also involves discarding a card, is fair. The modes make it better, but they don't break it in half.
The originally submitted card is at the very upper reaches of what wizards could do without it being totally broken. Colourless production plus 4cc counter is very strong but still within the bounds of printability. Making the counter cost a reasonable amount(3cc or less) even as a Mana Leak variant would push the cards power too high. Running 4 colourless lands which you can in the mid-late game use instead as a Last Word is fine, but running 4 colourless lands which you can use even in the early game as a good but cheaper uncounterable counter is definitely not.
I question if this card is printable in that form, especially with Mana Leak in the same format.
Again: The drawback of this card is that you don't get a colored mana. Since we have Mana Leak, a good soft counter that is 1U, this card could slip into many decks without being a drawback.
And wheel of fortune effects are a special subset of draw effects that can be splashed into red for its "screw everything in my hand, i want something else" attitude.
Wheel of Fortune style effects have been primarily red for the last few sets with the exception of the new Jace's Archivist. The last blue Wheel style effect before that was Soratami Seer.
It's a red ability now with some blue. The only blue variants seem to be based on Windfall; you draw cards equal to the amount discarded, instead of drawing a separate amount of cards like Wheel.
It'll probably get creature-ified somehow. Say G 1/1, Flash, Kicker 1UU, t: add 1 to your mana pool. If you paid the kicker cost, when ~ enters the battlefield, you may counter target spell. ~ enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it.
..so a better Mystic Snake?
Also, if the land was printed as is, it would be insane, simply because it can't be countered except by things like Stifle.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
Also, if the land was printed as is, it would be insane, simply because it can't be countered except by things like Stifle.
That's not really the reason why, otherwise Last Word would have been "insane" as you put it. It would be an amazing card and very playable, but it wouldn't be this unstoppable force that people are making it out to be.
We know that the card they're printing is not actually based on Denying Channel (thanks to the reports that he submitted a second, different card and the general "Invitational Cards are Creatures" semi-rule. What we're going to get is going to be something very different, and even if it was based on this design Rosewater said that they changed it extensively.
We know that the card they're printing is not actually based on Denying Channel (thanks to the reports that he submitted a second, different card and the general "Invitational Cards are Creatures" semi-rule. What we're going to get is going to be something very different, and even if it was based on this design Rosewater said that they changed it extensively.
A colourless Dryad Arbor that discards and counters for 2UU :D?
But seriously though I really hope Denying Channel gets printed at some point, it's a great card and I enjoy cards with such interesting abilities... Besides, Gemstone Cavern was printed eventually, wasn't it?
Do we know what the design of the other card he submit was like?
That's not really the reason why, otherwise Last Word would have been "insane" as you put it. It would be an amazing card and very playable, but it wouldn't be this unstoppable force that people are making it out to be.
It would be Last Word that also functions as a land..yeah, that would definately be considered "insane".
And as someone else pointed out, being immune to basically all targeted hand disruption would be stupid too.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
It would be Last Word that also functions as a land..yeah, that would definately be considered "insane".
And as someone else pointed out, being immune to basically all targeted hand disruption would be stupid too.
But that's not what you said, you literally said it was insane simply because it was uncounterable. Also it doesn't also function as a land, it functions as either a land or a counter. To quote you on the former error:
it would be insane, simply because it can't be countered except by things like Stifle.
What targeted hand disruption? A 2UU counter would be immune to IOK and Despise, and we're not sure if Duress is coming back yet. It would be immune to Distress but nobody is going to be playing that probably and it's not immune to Surgical Extraction.
I think all of you are making it out to be far more than it is. Sure it has a lot of small qualities that make it a great and flexible card, but it wouldn't be quite as good as Cryptic in the long run. It would also offer a great skill check for players, based on understanding when it's right to play it as a land and when to hold it back.
But that's not what you said, you literally said it was insane simply because it was uncounterable. Also it doesn't also function as a land, it functions as either a land or a counter. To quote you on the former error:
What targeted hand disruption? A 2UU counter would be immune to IOK and Despise, and we're not sure if Duress is coming back yet. It would be immune to Distress but nobody is going to be playing that probably and it's not immune to Surgical Extraction.
I think all of you are making it out to be far more than it is. Sure it has a lot of small qualities that make it a great and flexible card, but it wouldn't be quite as good as Cryptic in the long run. It would also offer a great skill check for players, based on understanding when it's right to play it as a land and when to hold it back.
You also seemed to leave out how I mentioned it was a land, and then it would be insane as it's uncounterable..so stop quoting like that, yeah?
And what do you mean "what hand disruption?" when you just stated all of it right after. Distress, Duress, and Thoghtseize could get a normal 2UU counter..yet not this land, which only gives it another upside.
And also the fact that you even compared it to Cryptic Command shows that you realize it's good.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
You also seemed to leave out how I mentioned it was a land, and then it would be insane as it's uncounterable..so stop quoting like that, yeah?
And what do you mean "what hand disruption?" when you just stated all of it right after. Distress, Duress, and Thoghtseize could get a normal 2UU counter..yet not this land, which only gives it another upside.
And also the fact that you even compared it to Cryptic Command shows that you realize it's good.
I quoted you in that manner for emphasis to show how your use of the word "simply" in that case indicated you were stating that it was insane because it was uncounterable, not because of all of its qualities combined.
Except Thoughtseize and Duress aren't in Standard, the format where it would see most play. In Vintage it wouldn't be used and in Legacy it's questionable at best. So unless Distress takes off in Standard it's a nonfactor in this case.
I never denied it was good, I've even said that I thought it was very playable several times now. I simply don't believe it's "insane" like Cryptic Command was.
The reasons I believe this card is insane are simple.
1. It's 4 free counterspells. Not free as in mana cost, but free as in deckbuilding space. People often underestimate how important space is. Stoneforge Mystic showed that; with only one of each equipment, the player was free to add more card drawing engines.
2. It's never a dead draw for control. In the early game, it's a land; in the late game, it's a counterspell. At 4 mana, that utility is ridiculous. Mana Leak in the same format only makes it better, since this card works complements Mana Leak; one is an early game soft counter, and the other is early game support for Mana Leak and a late game hard counter.
The card on its own won't destroy standard, but neither did the artifact lands. Just like those cards, this provides an amazing benefit at a minimal cost (Some of the artifact lands get destroyed by the artifact destruction common in standard at the time, and Darksteel Citadel provides colorless), and there's already a deck type that benefits a huge amount from the effect. Just like the artifact lands, it's never a dead draw.
It's another 4-of counterspell for control decks, but unlike most counterspells it doesn't really take up deck building space. That means any good control shell becomes over the top with this card.
Innistrad-like version of Tiago Chan's Invitational Card.
Denying Channel
Land
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
:2mana:,:symtap:, Sacrifice Denying Channel: Counter target spell. Activate this ability only if a graveyard has four or more land cards in it.
At least it won't be easy to fill up a graveyard with land cards.
We know that the card they're printing is not actually based on Denying Channel (thanks to the reports that he submitted a second, different card and the general "Invitational Cards are Creatures" semi-rule. What we're going to get is going to be something very different, and even if it was based on this design Rosewater said that they changed it extensively.
Oh, I hadn't heard that. That is fantastic news!
Control decks played Urza's Factory plenty when it was legal.... I don't think people are understanding how powerful it is to be able to put counterspells in a land slot.
It's hilarious to me that people somehow think that Tiago Chan designed a mediocre card that wouldn't affect standard much. He obviously knew how powerful it was. Opportunity cost is as important a concept as raw power... Tectonic edge gets played plenty and it isn't remotely as good as this land would be, killing a land and answering any threat at the game's mid point are very different effects.
Because it can play 4 extra Last Word? That's really, really hyperbolic, considering the cost of playing colorless lands is high enough that many X/X decks struggle at four of those and we expect more than simply being able to counter a spell from control cards these days.
I mean, look at Tectonic Edge. It's a stone rain tacked onto a land and you can even use the land a few times before you blow something up. It's not exactly the same case, but it's close enough to see that this kind of effect isn't going to wreck any format with the correct application.
Good? Yes. Broken. Not likely.
You're completely missing why this card is broken. Last Word isn't broken because its bad until the very late game, when you can play other things and 'it' in the same turn. This card is good in the opening hand, and good in the late game. If you're flooded, you're still doing things (like, stopping them from beating you by playing this as a 'spell' instead of a land) and if you're land light, you play this out and are still able to play the rest of your spells in your hand.
The reason this card is BROKEN is because it removes a large amount of 'variable losses' that most decks get by flood/screw. Neither of the effects are inherently broken, but because you get either (when both are drastically different and help out in completely seperate situations) the card is TOO good.
Adding to that, it can't be disrupted by most hand disruption, and it's extremely silly interaction with Life From the Loam and this card shouldn't see print.
This card would be annoying in standard, and it would WARP legacy, and the supposed Modern format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Quote from oranges2 »
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
This card would be annoying in standard, and it would WARP legacy, and the supposed Modern format.
If you truly believe this than wow are you way off and you're highly over valuing this card. You do understand that Zoo and other decks are real threats in Legacy and as such a 4 mana counter can easily become irrelevant even if it's a land... Worse if you're playing this then you're not really able to run Factories or Wastelands which are both better in a lot of different ways.
Saying this will warp Legacy shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.
If you truly believe this than wow are you way off and you're highly over valuing this card. You do understand that Zoo and other decks are real threats in Legacy and as such a 4 mana counter can easily become irrelevant even if it's a land... Worse if you're playing this then you're not really able to run Factories or Wastelands which are both better in a lot of different ways.
Saying this will warp Legacy shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Are you joking???
1. Zoo hasn't been a real threat in Legacy since......I cant even recall without having to go throught tournament reports.
2. This card is good because it works well with Wastelands and Factories. Some sort of green/blue, maybe black splash deck with these lands would be TERRIFIC in legacy. Life From the Loam with Wasteland and this is STUPID GOOD.
3. And there's always the Standstill decks that would instantly play this.
In fact, I completely turn your assertion around back at you. If you don't see why this is broken, Im certain you have zero clue about what makes a card good or not.
Theres a reason this card was redone and not printed as is, while we had to wait 4 years to get it, and its not because its merely ok.
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
1. Zoo hasn't been a real threat in Legacy since......I cant even recall without having to go throught tournament reports.
2. This card is good because it works well with Wastelands and Factories. Some sort of green/blue, maybe black splash deck with these lands would be TERRIFIC in legacy. Life From the Loam with Wasteland and this is STUPID GOOD.
3. And there's always the Standstill decks that would instantly play this.
In fact, I completely turn your assertion around back at you. If you don't see why this is broken, Im certain you have zero clue about what makes a card good or not.
Theres a reason this card was redone and not printed as is, while we had to wait 4 years to get it, and its not because its merely ok.
1.) Zoo actually won an event a few weeks back, the finals ended up being between Zoo and Goblins at that. The commentators even made mention how Mental Misstep didn't crush those archetypse like it was supposed to.
2.) Until one of your only three coloured sources gets Wastelanded. I don't think you understand just how much of a strain 12 colourless lands puts on a deck.
3.) That's fine, that doesn't mean it's warping the format, it just means it's seeing play. Also Standstill has been falling out of favor lately.
White makes people sacrifice things all the time:
Balance
Cataclysm
Balancing Act
Global Ruin
Martyr's Bond
Mercy Killing
Michiko Konda
Spelltithe Enforcer
Tariff
World Quellar
And so forth.
You mean like they did in Alpha?
Psionic Blast
Wheel of Fortune
Everyone basically agrees that letting blue do whatever it wanted back in alpha was bad for the game, so I don't really know what your point is there.
And wheel of fortune effects are a special subset of draw effects that can be splashed into red for its "screw everything in my hand, i want something else" attitude.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
It'll probably get creature-ified somehow. Say G 1/1, Flash, Kicker 1UU, t: add 1 to your mana pool. If you paid the kicker cost, when ~ enters the battlefield, you may counter target spell. ~ enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it.
Which is kinda funny since that card would be waaaaaay better than the land people are raging about. Remember, anything in M:tG is fair as long as you pay an appropriate amount of mana for it and the power level isn't devastating, relatively. A 4CMC counterspell, that also involves discarding a card, is fair. The modes make it better, but they don't break it in half.
I question if this card is printable in that form, especially with Mana Leak in the same format.
Again: The drawback of this card is that you don't get a colored mana. Since we have Mana Leak, a good soft counter that is 1U, this card could slip into many decks without being a drawback.
Wheel of Fortune style effects have been primarily red for the last few sets with the exception of the new Jace's Archivist. The last blue Wheel style effect before that was Soratami Seer.
It's a red ability now with some blue. The only blue variants seem to be based on Windfall; you draw cards equal to the amount discarded, instead of drawing a separate amount of cards like Wheel.
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!
..so a better Mystic Snake?
Also, if the land was printed as is, it would be insane, simply because it can't be countered except by things like Stifle.
That's not really the reason why, otherwise Last Word would have been "insane" as you put it. It would be an amazing card and very playable, but it wouldn't be this unstoppable force that people are making it out to be.
so naive.
when maro said the change was for the better, it means he raised the cost and restricted the ability....might have made it conditional too
A colourless Dryad Arbor that discards and counters for 2UU :D?
But seriously though I really hope Denying Channel gets printed at some point, it's a great card and I enjoy cards with such interesting abilities... Besides, Gemstone Cavern was printed eventually, wasn't it?
Do we know what the design of the other card he submit was like?
It would be Last Word that also functions as a land..yeah, that would definately be considered "insane".
And as someone else pointed out, being immune to basically all targeted hand disruption would be stupid too.
But that's not what you said, you literally said it was insane simply because it was uncounterable. Also it doesn't also function as a land, it functions as either a land or a counter. To quote you on the former error:
What targeted hand disruption? A 2UU counter would be immune to IOK and Despise, and we're not sure if Duress is coming back yet. It would be immune to Distress but nobody is going to be playing that probably and it's not immune to Surgical Extraction.
I think all of you are making it out to be far more than it is. Sure it has a lot of small qualities that make it a great and flexible card, but it wouldn't be quite as good as Cryptic in the long run. It would also offer a great skill check for players, based on understanding when it's right to play it as a land and when to hold it back.
You also seemed to leave out how I mentioned it was a land, and then it would be insane as it's uncounterable..so stop quoting like that, yeah?
And what do you mean "what hand disruption?" when you just stated all of it right after. Distress, Duress, and Thoghtseize could get a normal 2UU counter..yet not this land, which only gives it another upside.
And also the fact that you even compared it to Cryptic Command shows that you realize it's good.
I quoted you in that manner for emphasis to show how your use of the word "simply" in that case indicated you were stating that it was insane because it was uncounterable, not because of all of its qualities combined.
Except Thoughtseize and Duress aren't in Standard, the format where it would see most play. In Vintage it wouldn't be used and in Legacy it's questionable at best. So unless Distress takes off in Standard it's a nonfactor in this case.
I never denied it was good, I've even said that I thought it was very playable several times now. I simply don't believe it's "insane" like Cryptic Command was.
1. It's 4 free counterspells. Not free as in mana cost, but free as in deckbuilding space. People often underestimate how important space is. Stoneforge Mystic showed that; with only one of each equipment, the player was free to add more card drawing engines.
2. It's never a dead draw for control. In the early game, it's a land; in the late game, it's a counterspell. At 4 mana, that utility is ridiculous. Mana Leak in the same format only makes it better, since this card works complements Mana Leak; one is an early game soft counter, and the other is early game support for Mana Leak and a late game hard counter.
The card on its own won't destroy standard, but neither did the artifact lands. Just like those cards, this provides an amazing benefit at a minimal cost (Some of the artifact lands get destroyed by the artifact destruction common in standard at the time, and Darksteel Citadel provides colorless), and there's already a deck type that benefits a huge amount from the effect. Just like the artifact lands, it's never a dead draw.
It's another 4-of counterspell for control decks, but unlike most counterspells it doesn't really take up deck building space. That means any good control shell becomes over the top with this card.
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!
This is ABSOLUTELY BUSTED. There is NO WAY IN HELL that this card will ever be printed. EVER.
Although I would certainly LOVE it if they did
Denying Channel
Land
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
:2mana:,:symtap:, Sacrifice Denying Channel: Counter target spell. Activate this ability only if a graveyard has four or more land cards in it.
At least it won't be easy to fill up a graveyard with land cards.
Oh, I hadn't heard that. That is fantastic news!
Control decks played Urza's Factory plenty when it was legal.... I don't think people are understanding how powerful it is to be able to put counterspells in a land slot.
It's hilarious to me that people somehow think that Tiago Chan designed a mediocre card that wouldn't affect standard much. He obviously knew how powerful it was. Opportunity cost is as important a concept as raw power... Tectonic edge gets played plenty and it isn't remotely as good as this land would be, killing a land and answering any threat at the game's mid point are very different effects.
You're completely missing why this card is broken. Last Word isn't broken because its bad until the very late game, when you can play other things and 'it' in the same turn. This card is good in the opening hand, and good in the late game. If you're flooded, you're still doing things (like, stopping them from beating you by playing this as a 'spell' instead of a land) and if you're land light, you play this out and are still able to play the rest of your spells in your hand.
The reason this card is BROKEN is because it removes a large amount of 'variable losses' that most decks get by flood/screw. Neither of the effects are inherently broken, but because you get either (when both are drastically different and help out in completely seperate situations) the card is TOO good.
Adding to that, it can't be disrupted by most hand disruption, and it's extremely silly interaction with Life From the Loam and this card shouldn't see print.
This card would be annoying in standard, and it would WARP legacy, and the supposed Modern format.
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
If you truly believe this than wow are you way off and you're highly over valuing this card. You do understand that Zoo and other decks are real threats in Legacy and as such a 4 mana counter can easily become irrelevant even if it's a land... Worse if you're playing this then you're not really able to run Factories or Wastelands which are both better in a lot of different ways.
Saying this will warp Legacy shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Isn't this a good thing?
Of course, this assumes they do the same thing for other deck types.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Are you joking???
1. Zoo hasn't been a real threat in Legacy since......I cant even recall without having to go throught tournament reports.
2. This card is good because it works well with Wastelands and Factories. Some sort of green/blue, maybe black splash deck with these lands would be TERRIFIC in legacy. Life From the Loam with Wasteland and this is STUPID GOOD.
3. And there's always the Standstill decks that would instantly play this.
In fact, I completely turn your assertion around back at you. If you don't see why this is broken, Im certain you have zero clue about what makes a card good or not.
Theres a reason this card was redone and not printed as is, while we had to wait 4 years to get it, and its not because its merely ok.
Of course, that would be a good thing, if ALL decks were privy to that sort of thing, and not just 1 color.
Posts merged.
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
1.) Zoo actually won an event a few weeks back, the finals ended up being between Zoo and Goblins at that. The commentators even made mention how Mental Misstep didn't crush those archetypse like it was supposed to.
2.) Until one of your only three coloured sources gets Wastelanded. I don't think you understand just how much of a strain 12 colourless lands puts on a deck.
3.) That's fine, that doesn't mean it's warping the format, it just means it's seeing play. Also Standstill has been falling out of favor lately.
Counter Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
2UU, exile Counter Land from your graveyard: Counter target spell.
They could even do a cycle of these "flashback lands."