That's honestly a ridiculous statement. WOTC would not shun the eternal players so badly as to remove Legacy as a relevant format. Extended is the least-loved format across the board, and is healthily overlapped by Modern. It's a beautiful solution, really.
Getting rid of Legacy would not shun Eternal players. After all, Vintage would still be in existence. Vintage also allows players to use more of the limited resources of the Reserved List than Legacy currently does. Legacy was created for the players that missed Alpha/Beta/Unlimited, Arabian Nights, and Antiquities. Haven't you ever noticed that the core of the Legacy Banned List is from this era? Yes, Urza's Block has a few cards as well, but some cards from that block still make JtMS look underpowered. Legacy has always been "Vintage Light," and a classic gap between the haves and have-nots.
Like most formats, Extended has/had devotees. I was one until they cut the time from 7 years to 4. Wizards only "supported" Extended for three months out of the year, which gave few people any reason to invest time - or money - into it. The other nine months are Block, Sealed, and Standard.
Modern would be an attempt at a new Eternal format to include more recent players. It exists outside the Reserved List, meaning any cards can be reprinted to give broader access (such as reprinting Tarmogoyf and/or Ravnica dual lands). It has an identifiable starting point and removes the inclusion of some cards people find "questionable" (such as Counterspell and Dark Ritual).
Legacy can be filtered out, with the cards being made available either for Vintage decks (which start around $3000 to build) or EDH. If Modern does become a format, it should replace Legacy.
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FTV does not come out in large numbers. The problem is that if you put a Goyf in a promotional item, you add about $50 to the price tag. FTV is the only time they WANT this to happen, as the set is intended to be a "reward" for local retailers.
You missed the point bub. I said a new item, like FTV, that does come out in large numbers.
If it suits WotC to do this, they will.
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Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Quote from oranges2 »
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
Seems like a great format- was talking about this exact thing a while back with friends. I'm really surprised that Hypergenesis is legal, yet Golgari Grave Troll is banned. Cascading into Hypergenesis makes it incredibly easy to drop an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn onto the battlefield turn 3. Golgari Grave Troll isn't much worse than Stinkweed Imp- if they are afraid of Dredge beating everything the card to ban is Bridge from Below.
Getting rid of Legacy would not shun Eternal players. After all, Vintage would still be in existence. Vintage also allows players to use more of the limited resources of the Reserved List than Legacy currently does. Legacy was created for the players that missed Alpha/Beta/Unlimited, Arabian Nights, and Antiquities. Haven't you ever noticed that the core of the Legacy Banned List is from this era? Yes, Urza's Block has a few cards as well, but some cards from that block still make JtMS look underpowered. Legacy has always been "Vintage Light," and a classic gap between the haves and have-nots.
Like most formats, Extended has/had devotees. I was one until they cut the time from 7 years to 4. Wizards only "supported" Extended for three months out of the year, which gave few people any reason to invest time - or money - into it. The other nine months are Block, Sealed, and Standard.
Modern would be an attempt at a new Eternal format to include more recent players. It exists outside the Reserved List, meaning any cards can be reprinted to give broader access (such as reprinting Tarmogoyf and/or Ravnica dual lands). It has an identifiable starting point and removes the inclusion of some cards people find "questionable" (such as Counterspell and Dark Ritual).
Legacy can be filtered out, with the cards being made available either for Vintage decks (which start around $3000 to build) or EDH. If Modern does become a format, it should replace Legacy.
I'm not sure I understand how legacy creates a gap between "haves" and "have-nots". Do you mean it creates a gap between those with "jobs" and those "without jobs"?
I'm not sure I understand how legacy creates a gap between "haves" and "have-nots". Do you mean it creates a gap between those with "jobs" and those "without jobs"?
You don't realize how privileged of a life you lead.
Seems like a great format- was talking about this exact thing a while back with friends. I'm really surprised that Hypergenesis is legal, yet Golgari Grave Troll is banned. Cascading into Hypergenesis makes it incredibly easy to drop an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn onto the battlefield turn 3. Golgari Grave Troll isn't much worse than Stinkweed Imp- if they are afraid of Dredge beating everything the card to ban is Bridge from Below.
Hey its one think to give it a vasectomy, it's another thing to castrate the deck. Dredge still has twelve more dredge cards that are not GGT... also with moving over the the Hedron Crab build adding four copies of Life From the Loam sounds really good to me... the issue with old extended (Seven year) Dredge was that it was hard to find room to add Life-ftl because you didn't want to cut GGT. Now the choice has been made for me. Granted people are going to say i should be running Thugs instead but the deck needs land drops instead of draw and Dakmor Salvage blows because it only gives black and isn't a fetch target.
You don't realize how privileged of a life you lead.
+1
Legacy has its base and always will. This format can be just as diverse and reach out to a larger audience so I think in the next two years it will start appearing in 1-5K events.
Echoing Truth and Echoing Decay should be more than enough to help shut that down... although I admit that's just speculation as I've never had the misfortune to play against or with a Dredge deck.
Also interesting to see that Jace 2 wasn't banned considering most everything else seems to be.
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
i don't think this format will beat legacy at all in term of playerbase, even if it passes. do u guys even know how popular legacy has become?
I think it potentially could. There's only slightly less you can do for archetype building and there's still a lot of options. The format should be better balanced (although legacy is pretty good as long as you don't mind a lot of rock/paper/scissors matches) and since it doesn't hit anything on the reserve list it should allow people to enjoy a form of eternal without having to shell out huge amounts of $$.
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Modern cannot possibly replace Legacy. Not for Legacy Players. If you're not a Legacy Player, it doesn't matter that you'd prefer to play Modern (due to not owning Legacy).
Both can co-exist perfectly, and one happens to be more friendly to the viability of being a Pro Tour format (Modern).
An unknown number of years from now, when it's literally impossible to acquire a Legacy deck, then sure, WOTC may stop promoting it (like they did Vintage), but there are still huge Vintage tournaments both in the US and Europe every year. Legacy will not be outmoded so easily.
Echoing Truth and Echoing Decay should be more than enough to help shut that down... although I admit that's just speculation as I've never had the misfortune to play against or with a Dredge deck.
Also interesting to see that Jace 2 wasn't banned considering most everything else seems to be.
The problem is that banning the troll doesn't do that much to weaken the deck.
Disagree. Troll did a lot for the deck by making those bridge/dredges guarantee lethal (and survive pyroclasm). All of the other dredge cards that can replace troll are MUCH worse, both at dredging, and if they're put into play.
No matter what it's a big hit to the consistency/speed of dredge, which is what they're trying for. It's similar to the affinity bannings: hurt speed/consistency, but leave engine intact.
edit: I'd like to add that failure to ban hypergenesis seems like a terrible oversight. Just saying let's not understate how important troll is.
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Disagree. Troll did a lot for the deck by making those bridge/dredges guarantee lethal (and survive pyroclasm). All of the other dredge cards that can replace troll are MUCH worse, both at dredging, and if they're put into play.
No matter what it's a big hit to the consistency/speed of dredge, which is what they're trying for. It's similar to the affinity bannings: hurt speed/consistency, but leave engine intact.
edit: I'd like to add that failure to ban hypergenesis seems like a terrible oversight. Just saying let's not understate how important troll is.
I agree with this. As for Hypergenesis it could always end up the ban list seeing as the Community Cup is them testing the waters for Modern.
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A new, nice, accessible, eternal format. This is really all upside. Ban list is understandable and probably just a preemtive ban, and maybe some will be unbanned at some point.
A new, nice, accessible, eternal format. This is really all upside. Ban list is understandable and probably just a preemtive ban, and maybe some will be unbanned at some point.
This.
The upside being that most people that started around Onslaught -> Ravnica are quite upset that their cards are collecting dust (mine included)
just seems impossible for dredge to get to enough mana to make chalice worth while for anything other than hypergenesis... I guess taking up SB slots for 1 card against 1 deck, is a good idea? lol
Considering Hypergenesis was BANNED in old Extended because you can end up Dropping a Progen or (Now in Modern Magic) Emrakul on Turn 0, yeah, it makes sense to have it when it isn't banned.
(For those who don't know: On the draw, begin the game with a Gemstone Caverns on t3h Battlefield, when your opponent passes in their upkeep, Exile two Simian Spirit Guides from your hand, tap the Caverns for G, cast Violent Outburst , flip your deck till you hit a Hypergenesis (by not having any CMC 1 and 2 Spells ofc!) and Throw down an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Progenitus from your hand, then attack for the winlar. Yes it needs a perfect 6 card hand, but still, this isn't meant to be Vintage. (`0`) You can also do it a bit slower on Turn 1 with Chancellor of the Tangle I suppose.)
but chalice doesn't stop a turn 0 hg but I get your point!
Tooth and Nail could see some play again here. I see people trying to rebuild all kinds of power decks from standard/block formats of the past & present. For example:
Faeries
Mythic Conscription
Merfolk
Jund
Hypergenesis
Ad Nauseum/Conflagarate
Ooze Combo
Dredge
Firemane Control
Melira/Persist Combo
Seems pretty diverse to me, and the bannings seem appropriate.
Getting rid of Legacy would not shun Eternal players. After all, Vintage would still be in existence. Vintage also allows players to use more of the limited resources of the Reserved List than Legacy currently does. Legacy was created for the players that missed Alpha/Beta/Unlimited, Arabian Nights, and Antiquities. Haven't you ever noticed that the core of the Legacy Banned List is from this era? Yes, Urza's Block has a few cards as well, but some cards from that block still make JtMS look underpowered. Legacy has always been "Vintage Light," and a classic gap between the haves and have-nots.
Like most formats, Extended has/had devotees. I was one until they cut the time from 7 years to 4. Wizards only "supported" Extended for three months out of the year, which gave few people any reason to invest time - or money - into it. The other nine months are Block, Sealed, and Standard.
Modern would be an attempt at a new Eternal format to include more recent players. It exists outside the Reserved List, meaning any cards can be reprinted to give broader access (such as reprinting Tarmogoyf and/or Ravnica dual lands). It has an identifiable starting point and removes the inclusion of some cards people find "questionable" (such as Counterspell and Dark Ritual).
Legacy can be filtered out, with the cards being made available either for Vintage decks (which start around $3000 to build) or EDH. If Modern does become a format, it should replace Legacy.
It is, along with most power decks of the past except Hypergenesis.
You missed the point bub. I said a new item, like FTV, that does come out in large numbers.
If it suits WotC to do this, they will.
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
BRYAUGH plays punk and metal covers of songs from LOTR movies! Check out BRYAUGH on bandcamp and facebook!
I'm not sure I understand how legacy creates a gap between "haves" and "have-nots". Do you mean it creates a gap between those with "jobs" and those "without jobs"?
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Weirdly, standard has been BAD since JTMS was banned, it hasn't been fun, nor healthy since.
You don't realize how privileged of a life you lead.
Hey its one think to give it a vasectomy, it's another thing to castrate the deck. Dredge still has twelve more dredge cards that are not GGT... also with moving over the the Hedron Crab build adding four copies of Life From the Loam sounds really good to me... the issue with old extended (Seven year) Dredge was that it was hard to find room to add Life-ftl because you didn't want to cut GGT. Now the choice has been made for me. Granted people are going to say i should be running Thugs instead but the deck needs land drops instead of draw and Dakmor Salvage blows because it only gives black and isn't a fetch target.
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+1
Legacy has its base and always will. This format can be just as diverse and reach out to a larger audience so I think in the next two years it will start appearing in 1-5K events.
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Echoing Truth and Echoing Decay should be more than enough to help shut that down... although I admit that's just speculation as I've never had the misfortune to play against or with a Dredge deck.
Also interesting to see that Jace 2 wasn't banned considering most everything else seems to be.
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
Then Innistrad has a graveyard theme...
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
I think it potentially could. There's only slightly less you can do for archetype building and there's still a lot of options. The format should be better balanced (although legacy is pretty good as long as you don't mind a lot of rock/paper/scissors matches) and since it doesn't hit anything on the reserve list it should allow people to enjoy a form of eternal without having to shell out huge amounts of $$.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
Both can co-exist perfectly, and one happens to be more friendly to the viability of being a Pro Tour format (Modern).
An unknown number of years from now, when it's literally impossible to acquire a Legacy deck, then sure, WOTC may stop promoting it (like they did Vintage), but there are still huge Vintage tournaments both in the US and Europe every year. Legacy will not be outmoded so easily.
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
Echoing Truth and Echoing Decay are answers for Bridge from Below (and so are Mogg Fanatic, Viscera Seer, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, etc...), but if they are banning Golgari Grave Troll, it is because they are afraid of Dredge warping the modern-format metagame regardless of the many available answers. The problem is that banning the troll doesn't do that much to weaken the deck.
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Disagree. Troll did a lot for the deck by making those bridge/dredges guarantee lethal (and survive pyroclasm). All of the other dredge cards that can replace troll are MUCH worse, both at dredging, and if they're put into play.
No matter what it's a big hit to the consistency/speed of dredge, which is what they're trying for. It's similar to the affinity bannings: hurt speed/consistency, but leave engine intact.
edit: I'd like to add that failure to ban hypergenesis seems like a terrible oversight. Just saying let's not understate how important troll is.
I agree with this. As for Hypergenesis it could always end up the ban list seeing as the Community Cup is them testing the waters for Modern.
WUBRGBubble HulkWUBRG
BGThe SicknessGB
EDH
WGCaptain SisayGW
GUEdric, Spymaster of Card-AdvantageUG
This.
The upside being that most people that started around Onslaught -> Ravnica are quite upset that their cards are collecting dust (mine included)
I understand there are a few staple cards from each set but I'll really be happy in playing Dark Confidant, Tidehollow Sculler and Eternal Witness together in a format that doesn't have Force of Will, Wasteland or Hymn to Tourach (Great card, very powerful.)
dredge was running chalice?
just seems impossible for dredge to get to enough mana to make chalice worth while for anything other than hypergenesis... I guess taking up SB slots for 1 card against 1 deck, is a good idea? lol
but chalice doesn't stop a turn 0 hg but I get your point!
Faeries
Mythic Conscription
Merfolk
Jund
Hypergenesis
Ad Nauseum/Conflagarate
Ooze Combo
Dredge
Firemane Control
Melira/Persist Combo
Seems pretty diverse to me, and the bannings seem appropriate.
I guess, but ironically, a blank Chalice can be Nix'd.