If they get rid of lightning bolt then they better get rid of some control cards like mana leak or I will be pissed. Control is already overpowered and has access to more sweepers than I can remember. Now magic is going to take away reds best card thx!:mad:
The non-3 boon card that is most equivalent in power to lightning bolt is not mana leak, it's counterspell. So sure, they can get rid of leak, and bring back CS.
The non-3 boon card that is most equivalent in power to lightning bolt is not mana leak, it's counterspell. So sure, they can get rid of leak, and bring back CS.
Comparing the power of a great utility card in the consistently most used and most versatile color to a great utility card in Red is totally sane.:rolleyes:
Although Counterspell wasn't quite the bogeyman some people think it is.
Also, on the firewalker: I forgot that New Phyrexia provided some helpful tools for pro-red/big creatures. Shrine of Burning Rage kills it. Sure, it's a huge mana investment/loss of tempo for a kill spell, but I'm glad at least something exists that will be maindecked. Dismember is also a pretty cool sideboard option.
I scrolled through 10 pages, im not going to read all 22 pages, but lightning bolt stopping print seems to be generating the same feelings it did when this happened the first time. All this talk of replacing it with different cards, i saw no mention of a reprint of Lightning Helix?
It was a pretty solid card back when ravnica was standard and is pretty solid in burn decks ive seen.
Iona is a monster when she shuts off the entire deck/all their ways to deal with her. In multiplayer you can name white and get her doom bladed or name black and she goes to work at the farm. Not so good.
I scrolled through 10 pages, im not going to read all 22 pages, but lightning bolt stopping print seems to be generating the same feelings it did when this happened the first time. All this talk of replacing it with different cards, i saw no mention of a reprint of Lightning Helix?
It was a pretty solid card back when ravnica was standard and is pretty solid in burn decks ive seen.
We're not going to see multicolor in a core set. It's too complex, and if they chose to out in one uncommon spell in two particular colors, they would have o devote a significant portion of the set to multicolor, which, again, they're not going to do. Also, they would have, in teh mechanics of Magic: 2012 article, said that they were doing multicolor, which they didn't do.
We're not going to see multicolor in a core set. It's too complex, and if they chose to out in one uncommon spell in two particular colors, they would have o devote a significant portion of the set to multicolor, which, again, they're not going to do. Also, they would have, in teh mechanics of Magic: 2012 article, said that they were doing multicolor, which they didn't do.
So if multicolor wont be in a core ser besides maybe legends or pws, i know itslike shock, how about Seal of Fire?
Iona is a monster when she shuts off the entire deck/all their ways to deal with her. In multiplayer you can name white and get her doom bladed or name black and she goes to work at the farm. Not so good.
Perhaps they could make a Shock that deals additional damage if it doesn't target a creature? That way, it could still be effective against Planeswalkers.
Maybe something like a "Mountaincraft" could be a decent replacement? Might be too annoying for a core set, but could be something like "Mountaincraft Bolt deals 2 damage to target creature or player. If you control at least 3 (maybe 4) Mountains it deals 4 damage to target creature or player instead."
This actually strengthens mono-red, but weakens multi-color decks using bolt as "splash" removal... though would also be annoying as hell in Valakut for a few months.
Maybe something like a "Mountaincraft" could be a decent replacement? Might be too annoying for a core set, but could be something like "Mountaincraft Bolt deals 2 damage to target creature or player. If you control at least 3 (maybe 4) Mountains it deals 4 damage to target creature or player instead."
This actually strengthens mono-red, but weakens multi-color decks using bolt as "splash" removal... though would also be annoying as hell in Valakut for a few months.
That's actually quite a good idea.
How about just a better version of Spitting Earth? Make it cost R and have it be an instant.
No, he compared it to a sorcery lightning bolt if it were made and stated it would be better than the chain lightning, because the chain has a drawback which I don't see (we are not talking about it being a sorcery)
Your opponent can copy it if they have 2 red mana untapped.
It's not much of a drawback (Since, as you mentioned, it's usually not a good idea to copy it), but that's still a drawback.
Personally, I think they should reprint Shock. It's reliable, almost as useful as Lightning Bolt, and in reality, most creatures only have a toughness of 1 or 2 to begin with.
When Lightning Bolt was T2 (still is, but you know what I mean), who can't say that there were better ways of dealing damage or killing a creature? While sure, it was cheap and a good turn one destroy-your-opponent's-first-creature, you could probably kill it by turn two with a creature spell of your own. And if you can't kill it through other means besides through a lightning bolt by turn two, then you're sort of out of luck anyways.
Personally, I think they should reprint Shock. It's reliable, almost as useful as Lightning Bolt, and in reality, most creatures only have a toughness of 1 or 2 to begin with.
When Lightning Bolt was T2 (still is, but you know what I mean), who can't say that there were better ways of dealing damage or killing a creature? While sure, it was cheap and a good turn one destroy-your-opponent's-first-creature, you could probably kill it by turn two with a creature spell of your own. And if you can't kill it through other means besides through a lightning bolt by turn two, then you're sort of out of luck anyways.
I can't agree with you. Lightning Bolt is the best one R mana burn we could ever have, AND it gives us many options for strictly better shocks.
Yes, shock is almost, ALMOST as good as LB. It's worse.
No, most creatures has more than 2 toughness. (titans, baneslayers, walls, etc. and not forgot about planeswalkers)
If they reprint shock, they can't print something as good as LB.
If they reprint LB, they can print something better than shock, like:
Pseudo shock R
instant
~~ deals 2 damage to target player or 4 to creature.
//
~~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player and you may draw a card.
//
~~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player. If that creature or player was dealt non-combat damage this turn, ~~ deals additional 1 damage to each creature and each player.
I can't agree with you. Lightning Bolt is the best one R mana burn we could ever have, AND it gives us many options for strictly better shocks.
Yes, shock is almost, ALMOST as good as LB. It's worse.
No, most creatures has more than 2 toughness. (titans, baneslayers, walls, etc. and not forgot about planeswalkers)
If they reprint shock, they can't print something as good as LB.
Last time I checked, the five titans, Baneslayer, most walls, and most Planeswalkers have more than three toughness/loyalty counters, so not even Lightning Bolt is great against them. Sure, you can soften them up, but for merely :1mana::symb: you can kill any and all of those (except for Planeswalkers, in which case, there are other ways of dealing with them [such as Vampire Hexmage, which only costs :symb::symb:]).
Shock isn't worse than Lightning Bolt. It's slightly weaker, yes, but can do whatever Lightning Bolt can: kill weak creatures, weaken Planeswalkers/stronger creatures, and occasionally be used against other players. A card like Lightning Bolt doesn't do much in the long run, it only helps. Can you say that a 1/1 Soldier for wins the game by itself? No, you use it to get an early edge in the game, and then play bigger and better things.
My point is, Lightning Bolt isn't as godly as people crack it up to be. It is a good card (as a red player, I know that it has saved me in the past), but the fact of the matter is, replacing it with Shock wouldn't make much difference. Any time I use Lightning Bolt, a Shock could have done the job as well most of the time.
By virtue of being slightly weaker, though, it IS worse than the trusty bolt. That one extra damage can be the different between winning a game and not; if your opponent's sitting at 3 life and you have a Shock in hand, you're not going to be most impressed. There is no situation, bar already having four Lightning Bolts in your deck, where you would take Shock over Lightning Bolt; Shock is good, but is not as good.
I see your point, however, I still disagree.
Shocks, Lightning Bolts, really any card like those do not win games by themselves. Saying so misses the entire point of deck building. Each card is a cog in the engine that is your deck. You can't bank on one card winning the game for you, you need to have your cards work together in order for you to push forward. While there are times that you will find your opponents at 3 life, and a Lightning Bolt will kill them for you, you're missing the steps that made your opponent only have 3 life. If you're able to bring them down to 3 life, then you probably have the ability to kill them without that Lightning Bolt in hand.
The problem with Shock is that it is a card that was designed for 1998, not 2011. Creatures were substantially weaker 13 years ago, so Shock was perfectly fine for its time. It held up reasonably well for several years, at least until stuff like Incinerate started to get reprinted.
Now with creatures at the strongest they have ever been, Shock just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. To further compound the problem, Shock is pretty underwhelming against planeswalkers as well which obviously weren't in the game over a decade ago.
Tom LaPille's Jace article mentioned that M12 was built with the need to fight planeswalkers. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a traditional burn spell with a clause that lets you deal considerably more damage if you redirect the damage to a planeswalker.
Shocks, Lightning Bolts, really any card like those do not win games by themselves. Saying so misses the entire point of deck building. Each card is a cog in the engine that is your deck. You can't bank on one card winning the game for you, you need to have your cards work together in order for you to push forward. While there are times that you will find your opponents at 3 life, and a Lightning Bolt will kill them for you, you're missing the steps that made your opponent only have 3 life. If you're able to bring them down to 3 life, then you probably have the ability to kill them without that Lightning Bolt in hand.
Lightning Bolt is useful not only for its kill potential, but for its ability to further damage the opponent when your creatures can't get through. 3 damage for 1 mana and 1 card is a pretty good deal. Shock is only slightly worse at kill potential, and only slightly worse at damaging an opponent, but the effect is cumulative (Especially since the damage difference is cumulative for multiple Bolts/Shocks to the face).
Also, creatures have gotten better, so Shock's utility has lowered, and there's been plenty of strictly better burn spells even outside Lightning Bolt, such as Galvanic Blast.
Although I believe it will rotate, I also feel this way. Lightning Bolt is an absolute classic and will be truly missed in Type 2.
The non-3 boon card that is most equivalent in power to lightning bolt is not mana leak, it's counterspell. So sure, they can get rid of leak, and bring back CS.
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Weirdly, standard has been BAD since JTMS was banned, it hasn't been fun, nor healthy since.
Comparing the power of a great utility card in the consistently most used and most versatile color to a great utility card in Red is totally sane.:rolleyes:
Although Counterspell wasn't quite the bogeyman some people think it is.
Also, on the firewalker: I forgot that New Phyrexia provided some helpful tools for pro-red/big creatures. Shrine of Burning Rage kills it. Sure, it's a huge mana investment/loss of tempo for a kill spell, but I'm glad at least something exists that will be maindecked. Dismember is also a pretty cool sideboard option.
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!
It was a pretty solid card back when ravnica was standard and is pretty solid in burn decks ive seen.
We're not going to see multicolor in a core set. It's too complex, and if they chose to out in one uncommon spell in two particular colors, they would have o devote a significant portion of the set to multicolor, which, again, they're not going to do. Also, they would have, in teh mechanics of Magic: 2012 article, said that they were doing multicolor, which they didn't do.
So if multicolor wont be in a core ser besides maybe legends or pws, i know itslike shock, how about Seal of Fire?
It's entirely possible that the red common burn is something new.
This actually strengthens mono-red, but weakens multi-color decks using bolt as "splash" removal... though would also be annoying as hell in Valakut for a few months.
That's actually quite a good idea.
How about just a better version of Spitting Earth? Make it cost R and have it be an instant.
In all seriousness, hopefully Red can stay relevant in Type 2 without Bolt
Seriously though, Bolt leaving will be a major blow to Red. Let's hope Wotc will tone down the creatures to match a new toned down Bolt.
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The fact it's a sorcery?
Your opponent can copy it if they have 2 red mana untapped.
It's not much of a drawback (Since, as you mentioned, it's usually not a good idea to copy it), but that's still a drawback.
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!
The better idea in my opinion is 4 to creature, 2 to player.
Well, depending on whether they want to push for bigger creatures or give reach more power.
1R Instant
~ does 4 damage to target creature.
Draw a card.
Warning for posting custom cards.
Too good. Every single deck would play or SB that.
When Lightning Bolt was T2 (still is, but you know what I mean), who can't say that there were better ways of dealing damage or killing a creature? While sure, it was cheap and a good turn one destroy-your-opponent's-first-creature, you could probably kill it by turn two with a creature spell of your own. And if you can't kill it through other means besides through a lightning bolt by turn two, then you're sort of out of luck anyways.
:symr::symw: Humans (Standard)
:symb::symr: Vampires (Modern)
:symw::symb: Orzhov Control (Modern)
:symu::symr: Noggles (Modern)
I can't agree with you. Lightning Bolt is the best one R mana burn we could ever have, AND it gives us many options for strictly better shocks.
Yes, shock is almost, ALMOST as good as LB. It's worse.
No, most creatures has more than 2 toughness. (titans, baneslayers, walls, etc. and not forgot about planeswalkers)
If they reprint shock, they can't print something as good as LB.
If they reprint LB, they can print something better than shock, like:
Pseudo shock R
instant
~~ deals 2 damage to target player or 4 to creature.
//
~~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player and you may draw a card.
//
~~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player. If that creature or player was dealt non-combat damage this turn, ~~ deals additional 1 damage to each creature and each player.
Warning for posting custom cards.
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
(")(")
Last time I checked, the five titans, Baneslayer, most walls, and most Planeswalkers have more than three toughness/loyalty counters, so not even Lightning Bolt is great against them. Sure, you can soften them up, but for merely :1mana::symb: you can kill any and all of those (except for Planeswalkers, in which case, there are other ways of dealing with them [such as Vampire Hexmage, which only costs :symb::symb:]).
Shock isn't worse than Lightning Bolt. It's slightly weaker, yes, but can do whatever Lightning Bolt can: kill weak creatures, weaken Planeswalkers/stronger creatures, and occasionally be used against other players. A card like Lightning Bolt doesn't do much in the long run, it only helps. Can you say that a 1/1 Soldier for
My point is, Lightning Bolt isn't as godly as people crack it up to be. It is a good card (as a red player, I know that it has saved me in the past), but the fact of the matter is, replacing it with Shock wouldn't make much difference. Any time I use Lightning Bolt, a Shock could have done the job as well most of the time.
:symr::symw: Humans (Standard)
:symb::symr: Vampires (Modern)
:symw::symb: Orzhov Control (Modern)
:symu::symr: Noggles (Modern)
I see your point, however, I still disagree.
Shocks, Lightning Bolts, really any card like those do not win games by themselves. Saying so misses the entire point of deck building. Each card is a cog in the engine that is your deck. You can't bank on one card winning the game for you, you need to have your cards work together in order for you to push forward. While there are times that you will find your opponents at 3 life, and a Lightning Bolt will kill them for you, you're missing the steps that made your opponent only have 3 life. If you're able to bring them down to 3 life, then you probably have the ability to kill them without that Lightning Bolt in hand.
:symr::symw: Humans (Standard)
:symb::symr: Vampires (Modern)
:symw::symb: Orzhov Control (Modern)
:symu::symr: Noggles (Modern)
Now with creatures at the strongest they have ever been, Shock just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. To further compound the problem, Shock is pretty underwhelming against planeswalkers as well which obviously weren't in the game over a decade ago.
Tom LaPille's Jace article mentioned that M12 was built with the need to fight planeswalkers. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a traditional burn spell with a clause that lets you deal considerably more damage if you redirect the damage to a planeswalker.
Lightning Bolt is useful not only for its kill potential, but for its ability to further damage the opponent when your creatures can't get through. 3 damage for 1 mana and 1 card is a pretty good deal. Shock is only slightly worse at kill potential, and only slightly worse at damaging an opponent, but the effect is cumulative (Especially since the damage difference is cumulative for multiple Bolts/Shocks to the face).
Also, creatures have gotten better, so Shock's utility has lowered, and there's been plenty of strictly better burn spells even outside Lightning Bolt, such as Galvanic Blast.
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!