I really don't think it will be entwine. There have been many spells recently that have had "choose one or both", or "choose two" (the Command cycle). These spells make entwine seem over costed for what they do.
My vote is for either imprint or affinity returning.
I'm calling imprint. Affinity just makes too many people's stomachs curdle. Though without the ass-raping tendencies of Ravager-vial-disciple, the big bad machines might not be so bad.
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lum: While this all may be true (and you have yet to cite anything but your own view), you have also not shown where the popularity (or lack thereof) of a mechanic is the determining factor on whether it returns. Certainly it has an impact, but there is the counterargument that this time they'll do Entwine to do it 'right'.
The reason popularity will be a factor is because this is a sequel block, and as it was laid out in Mark Rosewater's article on the subject, they're only going to be bringing back the hits, the most well-loved and well-remembered mechanics, themes, and images from the original. Entwine just doesn't cut it, I feel. Of course I don't have "hard evidence" or anything, but of all the keywords in Mirrodin, it's certainly true that Entwine is the least remembered.
lum: Thank you for some data on the subject. Yes, it's the least remembered. (I think I may have recalled it before Sunburst, amusingly, but that's neither here nor there.)
If it's sheer nostalgia, T&N by itself might actually get it to come back. If nothing else, T&N was the David to Ravager Affinity's Goliath for a while, as I recall, and so the mechanic that underwrote it may propel it up there.
There was also that 'make people attack me or my people gain +1/+0 First Strike' Red card that was a huge sleeper in Limited.
Imprint, I thought, was commented on that it pushed the edge of what was complicated enough for a mechanic, and so I'm not sure about that. And despite all that I've said in this thread about Affinity, the very unpopularity of it would disincline its inclusion by the same argument you posit.
To be frank, if MaRo hadn't specifically excluded Scry, I would have bet any money on it.
Of course it's going to be affinity. Affinity is the mechanic with the most missed potential, the most open design space, and the most in need of better execution. In other words, the obvious choice.
I'm going to be really surprised if Entwine or Modular returns and Affinity does not.
I know that this seems a little bit stupid, seeing as how Rosewater himself said that it wasn't sunburst, but what if he's just throwing everyone through a loop?
I mean, we have confirmed artwork on things that look like etched oracle, and artwork that followed the pattern for depicting a sunburst card in the first place: The presence of the 5 moons in the background of the art somewhere or just 5 spheres of color on the artwork.
I honestly don't buy this. I think its still sunburst and Rosewater is just trying to fool all of us.
There's a difference between 'throwing for a loop' and outright lying. He's explicitly stated that the returning mechanic in Scars of Mirrodin is not Sunburst. He would not be permitted to make a blatantly untrue statement like that if it were false.
Anyone think about the possibility of affinity caring about affiliation? Affinity for Phyrexian/Mirran would be an interesting spin, and would preemptively kill any unforeseen brokenness with cards from other sets.
Huge difference like affinity being broken by cards that don't have affinity?
Are any of those cards really all that broken without affinity/Arftifact lands?
My point about my casual deck was that due to it being casual, i'm not running ravagers for example, so it's basically in a similar situation as if the breaking cards had never been printed.
Try running an affinity deck without using ravager or dotv, possibly cranial plating and/or any artifact lands and then tell me Affinity as a mechanic is broken.
And my point is that your Casual Affinity, is trying not to be broken... people dont competitively look at cards that can be broken and say how can i play this in a fair way....
m assuming from your posts that you disagree with Aaron Forsythes analysis on The Power Behind Affinity?
OFC, Because without those lands/other cards affinity is rather garbage and uplayable... It just one of those things its either broken or awful in competitive play.
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Anyone think about the possibility of affinity caring about affiliation? Affinity for Phyrexian/Mirran would be an interesting spin, and would preemptively kill any unforeseen brokenness with cards from other sets.
Imprint affiliation seems just as likely though.
Impossible from a rules standpoint because watermarks are not recognized by the rules.
Anyone think about the possibility of affinity caring about affiliation? Affinity for Phyrexian/Mirran would be an interesting spin, and would preemptively kill any unforeseen brokenness with cards from other sets.
Imprint affiliation seems just as likely though.
No.
This insinuates that the watermarks will play a role within the game. While it could potentially happen, a general consensus believes it to be a bad idea. The watermarks have never been more than decorative, and to attach rules text to them would be an unwieldy move on WoTC's part. New players who came across a single Scars card would be extremely confused by the watermarks if they came with implied rules text.
Voxxen: Since we have cards that have the watermark but do not have an affiliation mechanically printed on the card somewhere, this is impossible outside of an Un-set.
I really can't see entwine being the returning mechanic, it's exactly the same as kicker, and I don't see any reason to bring back an already redundant mechanic, affinity would be fine as long as it isn't as broken as before, imprint is kinda meh, It was good on a few cards, but I really can't see any room for additions to the mechanic considering whats already been done with it. Which leaves.....
Modular, this is my personal favorite amongst the group. Not only is it a powerful mechanic, but it can lead to good synergy and is full of flavor. Imagine the Mirrodin side being heavy with modular and +1/+1 counters and the Phyrexian side with the new infect mechanic, giving -1/-1 counters, that would be a flavorful set! Unfortunately some people are saying its already been hinted that the returning mechanic doesn't use counters, so, oh well. But there's always a chance!
the Affinity mechanic itself is not broken. not even close. there are zero cards with the keyword Affinity on them that are problematic in any way. what is fundamentally broken is artifact lands. artifacts lands, in the Mirrodin environment anyway, were sort of like lands that tapped for 2 mana and did a point of damage to your opponent. thats just broken. the artifact lands have always been the real villains of this story.
secondarily there are power level issues (that failed to get caught by development) with linear "artifact count" cards like Arcbound Ravager and Disciple of the Vault. linear artifact counting itself is not inherently broken either though. nobody seems to have an issue with Atog, do they?
i think Affinity could be brought back with ease, even including a few direct reprints. Frogmite is pretty inoffensive. Affinity for non-artifact types is a strong possibility as well and probably much easier to balance. the balancing of affinity spells would have to be careful because it would be regrettable to print a bunch of stuff that ended up unplayable because it was deliberately costed that way for power level fears. maybe its the case that the delicateness of the balancing is so prohibitive that Affinity will not be the returning mechanic, but i think it could be if they wanted it to be. the keyword itself is not inherently broken.
I really like Entwine and i would love to see it again.
I really like entwine as well, and would love to see it return. Two strikes against it, though:
-Entwine doesn't need an artifact-based set (or Mirrodin locale) in the same way that Imprint and Modular do. It could be an easy, fun repeat in a future unrelated block as just a random mechanic.
-It seems to me that they're going for some nostalgia/flashback value, and Entwine never seemed that tied to the Mirrodin block in the same way Modular or Imprint or Affinity did. When you think "Mirrodin Block Mechanics", Entwine is not really close to the top of the list. We're more likely to see something that feels more Mirrodin-ish.
I really can't see entwine being the returning mechanic, it's exactly the same as kicker, and I don't see any reason to bring back an already redundant mechanic, affinity would be fine as long as it isn't as broken
i agree that entwine is redundant, but affinity is still a possibility because it was only broken mainly because of chrome mox and artifact lands
wow, didnt expect that, was like 99% sure for sunburst, a chance to actually make the mechanic playable on creatures and stuff...
then, my guess goes to imprint, like lorewise, Old creatures were IMPRINTED on the plane of mirrodin by memnarch's soul traps, what if a new(or too old) villain creates phyrexians by stealing their souls and imprinting them on the slaughter-machines... (or old mirrodin machines, they no longer have a warden, so probably they wouldnt function, gaining another's soul/mana/whatever is the way to make them live again.)
i could see more imprint creatures and definately artifacts, what if there is a new take on imprint, like
imprint creature, or imprint black creature, ''specified imprint'' not just any card, and the effects of imprinting could be quite interesting, like gain imprinted cards p/t abilitys and such
gonna be fun
OR affinity for infected** creatures... seems doable or poison
Another reason why it can't be modular is because of rules confusion with Infect. People will want to have their guy with two +1/+1 counters be able to move them onto another guy after it trades with a 2/2 Infect guy, but they'll be wrong. And that's bad.
This is on top of the fact that there isn't really any new design space to explore with Modular. So yeah, Modular is out.
I really can't see entwine being the returning mechanic, it's exactly the same as kicker, and I don't see any reason to bring back an already redundant mechanic
Incorrect. Kicker gave you one option and the choice to get an additional effect if you payed the cost. Entwine gives you two options and the choice to pick both if you payed the cost.
Another reason why it can't be modular is because of rules confusion with Infect. People will want to have their guy with two +1/+1 counters be able to move them onto another guy after it trades with a 2/2 Infect guy, but they'll be wrong. And that's bad.
This is on top of the fact that there isn't really any new design space to explore with Modular. So yeah, Modular is out.
Actually, you do get to move the +1/+1 counters in that scenario.
And that is why it is bad to bring back modular.
Actually, the Arcbound Worker did have a +1/+1 counter before it left the battlefield. Keep in mind that there are two state-based actions that take place here:
(1) Arcbound Worker is a -2/-2 creature, and would be put into the graveyard for having 0 or less toughness.
(2) Arcbound Worker has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. One +1/+1 counter and one -1/-1 counter need to be removed.
Since those state-based actions are processed simultaneously, Arcbound Worker is put into the graveyard at the same time as the counters would be removed. Therefore, immediately prior to being put into the graveyard, it has a +1/+1 counter on it.
It should be affinity.
Lots of ways to go with it, and considering this set is stacking up the 'down and out' stuff, why not. (Return to a setting that had broken cards in it, poison...)
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My vote is for either imprint or affinity returning.
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Actual Truth:
The reason popularity will be a factor is because this is a sequel block, and as it was laid out in Mark Rosewater's article on the subject, they're only going to be bringing back the hits, the most well-loved and well-remembered mechanics, themes, and images from the original. Entwine just doesn't cut it, I feel. Of course I don't have "hard evidence" or anything, but of all the keywords in Mirrodin, it's certainly true that Entwine is the least remembered.
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If it's sheer nostalgia, T&N by itself might actually get it to come back. If nothing else, T&N was the David to Ravager Affinity's Goliath for a while, as I recall, and so the mechanic that underwrote it may propel it up there.
There was also that 'make people attack me or my people gain +1/+0 First Strike' Red card that was a huge sleeper in Limited.
Imprint, I thought, was commented on that it pushed the edge of what was complicated enough for a mechanic, and so I'm not sure about that. And despite all that I've said in this thread about Affinity, the very unpopularity of it would disincline its inclusion by the same argument you posit.
To be frank, if MaRo hadn't specifically excluded Scry, I would have bet any money on it.
I'm going to be really surprised if Entwine or Modular returns and Affinity does not.
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I mean, we have confirmed artwork on things that look like etched oracle, and artwork that followed the pattern for depicting a sunburst card in the first place: The presence of the 5 moons in the background of the art somewhere or just 5 spheres of color on the artwork.
I honestly don't buy this. I think its still sunburst and Rosewater is just trying to fool all of us.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Imprint affiliation seems just as likely though.
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BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
Are any of those cards really all that broken without affinity/Arftifact lands?
And my point is that your Casual Affinity, is trying not to be broken... people dont competitively look at cards that can be broken and say how can i play this in a fair way....
OFC, Because without those lands/other cards affinity is rather garbage and uplayable... It just one of those things its either broken or awful in competitive play.
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Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Impossible from a rules standpoint because watermarks are not recognized by the rules.
Probably. It would just be Krark-Clan Ironworks or something else that breaks them.
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No.
This insinuates that the watermarks will play a role within the game. While it could potentially happen, a general consensus believes it to be a bad idea. The watermarks have never been more than decorative, and to attach rules text to them would be an unwieldy move on WoTC's part. New players who came across a single Scars card would be extremely confused by the watermarks if they came with implied rules text.
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Modular, this is my personal favorite amongst the group. Not only is it a powerful mechanic, but it can lead to good synergy and is full of flavor. Imagine the Mirrodin side being heavy with modular and +1/+1 counters and the Phyrexian side with the new infect mechanic, giving -1/-1 counters, that would be a flavorful set! Unfortunately some people are saying its already been hinted that the returning mechanic doesn't use counters, so, oh well. But there's always a chance!
Wasn't a fan of Entwine. I would rater NOT see Affinity come back.
secondarily there are power level issues (that failed to get caught by development) with linear "artifact count" cards like Arcbound Ravager and Disciple of the Vault. linear artifact counting itself is not inherently broken either though. nobody seems to have an issue with Atog, do they?
i think Affinity could be brought back with ease, even including a few direct reprints. Frogmite is pretty inoffensive. Affinity for non-artifact types is a strong possibility as well and probably much easier to balance. the balancing of affinity spells would have to be careful because it would be regrettable to print a bunch of stuff that ended up unplayable because it was deliberately costed that way for power level fears. maybe its the case that the delicateness of the balancing is so prohibitive that Affinity will not be the returning mechanic, but i think it could be if they wanted it to be. the keyword itself is not inherently broken.
I really like entwine as well, and would love to see it return. Two strikes against it, though:
-Entwine doesn't need an artifact-based set (or Mirrodin locale) in the same way that Imprint and Modular do. It could be an easy, fun repeat in a future unrelated block as just a random mechanic.
-It seems to me that they're going for some nostalgia/flashback value, and Entwine never seemed that tied to the Mirrodin block in the same way Modular or Imprint or Affinity did. When you think "Mirrodin Block Mechanics", Entwine is not really close to the top of the list. We're more likely to see something that feels more Mirrodin-ish.
i agree that entwine is redundant, but affinity is still a possibility because it was only broken mainly because of chrome mox and artifact lands
some quick example...
Spell does more dmg if player/creature has infect counters
Creature get +x/+x for every creature it has Infected
would be my guess
then, my guess goes to imprint, like lorewise, Old creatures were IMPRINTED on the plane of mirrodin by memnarch's soul traps, what if a new(or too old) villain creates phyrexians by stealing their souls and imprinting them on the slaughter-machines... (or old mirrodin machines, they no longer have a warden, so probably they wouldnt function, gaining another's soul/mana/whatever is the way to make them live again.)
i could see more imprint creatures and definately artifacts, what if there is a new take on imprint, like
imprint creature, or imprint black creature, ''specified imprint'' not just any card, and the effects of imprinting could be quite interesting, like gain imprinted cards p/t abilitys and such
gonna be fun
OR affinity for infected** creatures... seems doable or poison
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This is on top of the fact that there isn't really any new design space to explore with Modular. So yeah, Modular is out.
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Incorrect. Kicker gave you one option and the choice to get an additional effect if you payed the cost. Entwine gives you two options and the choice to pick both if you payed the cost.
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Actually, you do get to move the +1/+1 counters in that scenario.
And that is why it is bad to bring back modular.
It should be affinity.
Lots of ways to go with it, and considering this set is stacking up the 'down and out' stuff, why not. (Return to a setting that had broken cards in it, poison...)
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