ignorant for not wanting to pay several times the MSRP? mmmmk have fun with that.
Ignorant for thinking that the free market is price gouging and for thinking the MSRP on this product exists for any reason other than to set the wholesale cost for stores.
MSRP, or manufacturer's suggested retail price, is a product of US antitrust laws that prohibited vertical price fixing for a large portion of the 20th century. As a manufacturer you couldn't direct your retailers to charge X amount for your product. You could only suggest a price, print it on the packaging, and let consumers rake the retailer over the coals for marking up the product. That's not how it works anymore. WOTC could impose a maximum resale price on all of its retailers and punish those that get out of line with sanctions, reducing the number of cases they can order, etc. But they won't do this for any number of reasons. Most folks have already mentioned that it's good for WOTC to allow stores to turn a tidy profit on some products so they can provide the ancillary services that WOTC wants out there to foster the growth of the game, tourneys, game nights, etc.
If it helps think of it as a rental fee your store is charging for those folks that want to opt in. It's an almost perfect tax system to support the store (so long as it actually generates enough money to help the store). The store is funded well by this, keeping them in business and their play space open, and only players that want and have the means to pay the tax. It's a win for the store, and a small win for the players that enjoy playing there.
FTVs are just cash grabs IMO. I also think they need to be more readily available to spurn off the majority of purchases that are only there only to make money off of ebay from.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
FTVs are just cash grabs IMO. I also think they need to be more readily available to spurn off the majority of purchases that are only there only to make money off of ebay from.
It's not just your opinions - it's the general consensus that they exist to be "cash grabs", if you will, for stores.
A question for you, gentle forum-ites: If WotC published the MSRP of the FTV as $75, and otherwise made no change to how it worked, would you be as irritated as you are that they sell for $75-$100 when MSRP is $35?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Along with many mods, I've moved shop over to MTGNexus. Come check us out!
It's not just your opinions - it's the general consensus that they exist to be "cash grabs", if you will, for stores.
A question for you, gentle forum-ites: If WotC published the MSRP of the FTV as $75, and otherwise made no change to how it worked, would you be as irritated as you are that they sell for $75-$100 when MSRP is $35?
I'd be much more irritated. The store I'm buying mine from sells them at MSRP, so then I'd be forced to pay the same price spike that people at other stores sell them at.
I'd be much more irritated. The store I'm buying mine from sells them at MSRP, so then I'd be forced to pay the same price spike that people at other stores sell them at.
Exactly. I am a reliable customer at my store and go there and buy there all the time. The owner knows me personally cause we draft together etc... He still says hmmm I could make a loottttttttt of money off of this since I'm only getting like 15-20 and they are limited in print... 35$??? NOPE! 100$+
I only brought it up in the forum because all they would have to do is print more... because then the product would not spike *if you don't believe the spikes then look at online stores like Ebay/SCG.* As for people calling this 35 MSRP spike to 100+ just a "free market" thing. You are partially correct, Gouging is a term used when a seller spikes the price up and boyond it's reasonable price on a product that is limited in supply. *similar to the gas stations that were selling 12 bucks a gallon of gas two years ago* So beyond collectors/EDH players the problem with this FTV is that there is only one real card anyone want's and is it worth buying Mox for 100$?
If FTV is meant to help stores make money... We should stop buying them until stores that do not sell them at MSRP or reasonable prices make them good prices. People who can get them for 35$ are lucky, I am unfortunate since my store cares a lot about it's huge profit.
The cards in this FTV are cool. I would like a shiney mox and a Nev's Disk for my EDH deck... But i'm just going to have to wait for the price to go down like the FTV exiled one did.
I appologize for any rudeness/off topic comments. I figured the discussion on this magic set would be the best place to see whether people agree with me or have at least thought about it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Esper Spirits-WUB
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
I only brought it up in the forum because all they would have to do is print more...
Have you not read the pages and pages about why they don't want to print more? They don't want everyone to have this product. That's not the point of it. Know what? They could print a bunch of Baneslayers and sell them in $2 packs of just 1 Baneslayer and a token card. That would stop the "gouging" on single Baneslayers. They don't want to do that either.
Have you not read the pages and pages about why they don't want to print more? They don't want everyone to have this product. That's not the point of it. Know what? They could print a bunch of Baneslayers and sell them in $2 packs of just 1 Baneslayer and a token card. That would stop the "gouging" on single Baneslayers. They don't want to do that either.
Seriously, it's like arguing with a brick wall!
HAHA! I found that kinda funny because people are being so serious. Baneslayer is a good card. Baneslayer is not limited in print, as in they will limit the print of it then stop printing it for good. I'm just saying it's too bad the stores who do sell at 100$ plus will lose customers on it because WotC doesnt allow the store to buy enough.
I mean seriously, it's like saying hey this is the MSRP 35$ but it's really not. If WotC wanted it to be 35$ then they would do something about it, my point is that they obviously do not care if this product is sold for upwards of 100+ dollars.
Gouging is a term used when a seller spikes the price up and boyond it's reasonable price on a product that is limited in supply. *similar to the gas stations that were selling 12 bucks a gallon of gas two years ago*
Yeah, those tons of people who starve or are unable to drive to work because FtV products are expensive are... yeah...:rolleyes2:
HAHA! I found that kinda funny because people are being so serious. Baneslayer is a good card. Baneslayer is not limited in print, as in they will limit the print of it then stop printing it for good. I'm just saying it's too bad the stores who do sell at 100$ plus will lose customers on it because WotC doesnt allow the store to buy enough.
I mean seriously, it's like saying hey this is the MSRP 35$ but it's really not. If WotC wanted it to be 35$ then they would do something about it, my point is that they obviously do not care if this product is sold for upwards of 100+ dollars.
Of course they don't care. Also, Baneslayer is limited in print. They aren't printing more, and the wholesale cost of a box of M10 is about $100 now. Also, stores aren't going to lose customers because of FTV. They may lose a sale, but not any real customers.
Honestly, everyone needs to quit whining. FTV is not a standard Magic release. It is a COLLECTIBLE box set. And know what the retail price of a collectible item (Such as a Black Lotus) is? Whatever collectors are willing to pay. If collectors universally agree that this set is worth at least $70, probably more, and you cry because you can't get it for $35 know what? You're the one being a jerk, not the store.
In related news, MSRP on a booster pack of Alpha is $2.99. Anyone selling those booster packs for more than that is apparently a price-gouging douchebag and will only lose customers for their horrible, unfair business practices. That, or all these whiners have NO idea what the ☺☺☺☺ they're talking about.
Of course they don't care. Also, Baneslayer is limited in print. They aren't printing more, and the wholesale cost of a box of M10 is about $100 now. Also, stores aren't going to lose customers because of FTV. They may lose a sale, but not any real customers.
Honestly, everyone needs to quit whining. FTV is not a standard Magic release. It is a COLLECTIBLE box set. And know what the retail price of a collectible item (Such as a Black Lotus) is? Whatever collectors are willing to pay. If collectors universally agree that this set is worth at least $70, probably more, and you cry because you can't get it for $35 know what? You're the one being a jerk, not the store.
In related news, MSRP on a booster pack of Alpha is $2.99. Anyone selling those booster packs for more than that is apparently a price-gouging douchebag and will only lose customers for their horrible, unfair business practices. That, or all these whiners have NO idea what the ☺☺☺☺ they're talking about.
If I remember right, MSRP on Alpha was $1.99. Of course, Magic wasn't supposed to sell anything close to what it turned into.
I don't see the problem with the limited print run of these FTV sets. You don't NEED to buy it. None of the cards are exclusive to the set. If you want special Disk or Masticore or whatever else is in here then you have to pay what the market sets the price at. If that price is too high, you're you going to have to settle for a regular one or wait until the price goes down. These sets are intended to be collector's items, not "everyone-can-have-one" items.
I like how people took my comments way too far. I was only saying that since we can control how this is sold as well as WotC can. It's just stupid to pay 3-4-5x it's actual worth just to have it. I understand the "collectibility" of 14 cards no one uses and a mox diamond. And the comment about the alpha pack was pretty irrelevent since we are not talking about one dollar more we are talking about 100+ dollars in a bad economy. No i do not have to buy it obviously. But there are plenty of "collectors" who "do" need to buy it. It's just stupid to say I want the stores to sell it at a reasonable price. *though by law they cannot actually tell the store what price to sell it at* Knowing that they will sell it at what ever price they want. It has nothing to do with the market the stores i go to have plenty of both of the previous FTV cause "the market" said people were buying them at 100 a piece, when now they gather dust with a price of 50.
Also how am I a jerk for asking my store to sell me something for a price that which other stores are selling it for? At least they would sell it rather than just sit there collecting dust. Rather than sell for what SCG dictates it's value.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Esper Spirits-WUB
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
I like how people took my comments way too far. I was only saying that since we can control how this is sold as well as WotC can. It's just stupid to pay 3-4-5x it's actual worth just to have it.
The problem is, since the distribution is so limited, there are enough people who say "That's cool! I'd pay even more for that!" and so buy it at $100-$150. So unless you manage a total boycott, those people will buy it, and the sales numbers won't change. Your point is absolutely correct, in that we the consumer ultimately set the price. However, there is a percentage of us that is willing to spend the effective retail price to own this. Until you can convince that top percentage to withhold their dollars, the prices will not drop.
WOTC puts a great deal of thought into these things. Usually the prices of the individual cards are greater than MSRP. Liliana + Garruk + Bad Moon + Mutilate + Rancor etc added up to more than $20. Similarly, Diamond alone seems to be more than the $35 MSRP. Diamond + Disk + Masticore + whatever else is in here will probably easily add up to the $75 that I expect to see it selling for in my area. Knowing that it's a "deal" drives demand.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Along with many mods, I've moved shop over to MTGNexus. Come check us out!
I understand the "collectibility" of 14 cards no one uses and a mox diamond.
Clearly you don't. First of all, 11 of the cards are unknown, so you can't make this assessment. Second of all, people use Memory Jar and Disk. Even if it's only for cubes and EDH, people still use them a LOT, and foils of them, particularly the disk where foils have not previously existed, will be highly sought after as both EDH and Cube are formats that people like to pimp out. Anyone buying this for JUST the Mox is an idiot.
#edit: Unless they're buying it for the Mox and intend to immediately trade/sell the rest. Buying it for the Mox and leaving the other 14 cards in a box somewhere is what would make one an idiot.
Ok just throwing it out there from a Stores point of view. not sure if its been mentioned yet.
Its not the store that decides the value of FTV items its you. Most stores will look at ebay and see what it is going for before they sell it to their customers. Guess who drives ebay. Its not the stores saying oh i'm gona put it out at this price. its you guys bidding it up. This works for other cards as well. now granted Starcity has cornered the market on most things and sets most of the prices that you will see in a gaming store, ebay and your willingness to buy something from Starcity at their prices is what drives everything up.
I like how people took my comments way too far. I was only saying that since we can control how this is sold as well as WotC can. It's just stupid to pay 3-4-5x it's actual worth just to have it. I understand the "collectibility" of 14 cards no one uses and a mox diamond. And the comment about the alpha pack was pretty irrelevent since we are not talking about one dollar more we are talking about 100+ dollars in a bad economy. No i do not have to buy it obviously. But there are plenty of "collectors" who "do" need to buy it. It's just stupid to say I want the stores to sell it at a reasonable price. *though by law they cannot actually tell the store what price to sell it at* Knowing that they will sell it at what ever price they want. It has nothing to do with the market the stores i go to have plenty of both of the previous FTV cause "the market" said people were buying them at 100 a piece, when now they gather dust with a price of 50.
Also how am I a jerk for asking my store to sell me something for a price that which other stores are selling it for? At least they would sell it rather than just sit there collecting dust. Rather than sell for what SCG dictates it's value.
While it is true that the price of FTV Exiled did hit a high point in the early going of $100 (we actually sold most of ours at that price as people were really going nuts for them O.o), it has cooled off to about $75 now online and we put our last few down to that price recently and proceeded to sell through the last few of those as well as an extra FTV Dragons that I decided to sell instead of keeping it to collect (Sold that one for $60 I think).
When "the market" (or in this case Ill just call it ebay ), says that the value of an item is a certain amount, I dont really see the issue of pricing it at what the market is saying it is worth, so long as they continue to sell and prices are adjusted as needed accordingly. As people have said, the reason wizards puts the MSRP on these things so low and makes it exclusive to brick and mortar stores is to help support those brick and mortar stores which are the backbone of the magic playerbase and sustainability of the game. Most shops with a decent amount of play space have a rather large amount of overhead costs they have to deal with. If we have an opportunity to make a little extra money to help offset those costs and all that playspace that you all get to use effectively for free, then I dont see the issue. If people dont want to pay the price being charged for the FTV, then they wouldnt sell at the higher price and we wouldnt be having this discussion. But the fact that people do pay the higher price makes it clear that the price being charged is a fair price.
Personally Im looking forward to seeing what all neat artifacts wizards has decided should be in this box set. The ones spoiled allready are quite impressive, so the rest (including the preview card for Scars of Mirrodin) should be interesting as well.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
So what are the odds of me being able to get one(or four) of these at MSRP?
About the same as my chances of having Natalie Portman turn up at my house professing her undying devotion to me, whilst shuffling up her Red deck for a quick game
I imagine unless you have a friend who is a store owner, you will have to pay well over the recommended retail like most people!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You're not your deck.
You're not how much mana you have in your pool.
You're not your half-naked, animè girl card sleeves.
You're not your DCI rating.
You're not your freaking ‘Coldsnap Prerelease’ t-shirt.
You are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the Multiverse.
(with apologies to Chuck Palahniuk)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
ignorant for not wanting to pay several times the MSRP? mmmmk have fun with that.
Ignorant for thinking that the free market is price gouging and for thinking the MSRP on this product exists for any reason other than to set the wholesale cost for stores.
If it helps think of it as a rental fee your store is charging for those folks that want to opt in. It's an almost perfect tax system to support the store (so long as it actually generates enough money to help the store). The store is funded well by this, keeping them in business and their play space open, and only players that want and have the means to pay the tax. It's a win for the store, and a small win for the players that enjoy playing there.
Watch Play Read
Twitter
It's not just your opinions - it's the general consensus that they exist to be "cash grabs", if you will, for stores.
A question for you, gentle forum-ites: If WotC published the MSRP of the FTV as $75, and otherwise made no change to how it worked, would you be as irritated as you are that they sell for $75-$100 when MSRP is $35?
I'd be much more irritated. The store I'm buying mine from sells them at MSRP, so then I'd be forced to pay the same price spike that people at other stores sell them at.
Exactly. I am a reliable customer at my store and go there and buy there all the time. The owner knows me personally cause we draft together etc... He still says hmmm I could make a loottttttttt of money off of this since I'm only getting like 15-20 and they are limited in print... 35$??? NOPE! 100$+
I only brought it up in the forum because all they would have to do is print more... because then the product would not spike *if you don't believe the spikes then look at online stores like Ebay/SCG.* As for people calling this 35 MSRP spike to 100+ just a "free market" thing. You are partially correct, Gouging is a term used when a seller spikes the price up and boyond it's reasonable price on a product that is limited in supply. *similar to the gas stations that were selling 12 bucks a gallon of gas two years ago* So beyond collectors/EDH players the problem with this FTV is that there is only one real card anyone want's and is it worth buying Mox for 100$?
If FTV is meant to help stores make money... We should stop buying them until stores that do not sell them at MSRP or reasonable prices make them good prices. People who can get them for 35$ are lucky, I am unfortunate since my store cares a lot about it's huge profit.
The cards in this FTV are cool. I would like a shiney mox and a Nev's Disk for my EDH deck... But i'm just going to have to wait for the price to go down like the FTV exiled one did.
I appologize for any rudeness/off topic comments. I figured the discussion on this magic set would be the best place to see whether people agree with me or have at least thought about it.
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
Have you not read the pages and pages about why they don't want to print more? They don't want everyone to have this product. That's not the point of it. Know what? They could print a bunch of Baneslayers and sell them in $2 packs of just 1 Baneslayer and a token card. That would stop the "gouging" on single Baneslayers. They don't want to do that either.
Seriously, it's like arguing with a brick wall!
HAHA! I found that kinda funny because people are being so serious. Baneslayer is a good card. Baneslayer is not limited in print, as in they will limit the print of it then stop printing it for good. I'm just saying it's too bad the stores who do sell at 100$ plus will lose customers on it because WotC doesnt allow the store to buy enough.
I mean seriously, it's like saying hey this is the MSRP 35$ but it's really not. If WotC wanted it to be 35$ then they would do something about it, my point is that they obviously do not care if this product is sold for upwards of 100+ dollars.
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
Yeah, those tons of people who starve or are unable to drive to work because FtV products are expensive are... yeah...:rolleyes2:
Of course they don't care. Also, Baneslayer is limited in print. They aren't printing more, and the wholesale cost of a box of M10 is about $100 now. Also, stores aren't going to lose customers because of FTV. They may lose a sale, but not any real customers.
Honestly, everyone needs to quit whining. FTV is not a standard Magic release. It is a COLLECTIBLE box set. And know what the retail price of a collectible item (Such as a Black Lotus) is? Whatever collectors are willing to pay. If collectors universally agree that this set is worth at least $70, probably more, and you cry because you can't get it for $35 know what? You're the one being a jerk, not the store.
In related news, MSRP on a booster pack of Alpha is $2.99. Anyone selling those booster packs for more than that is apparently a price-gouging douchebag and will only lose customers for their horrible, unfair business practices. That, or all these whiners have NO idea what the ☺☺☺☺ they're talking about.
If I remember right, MSRP on Alpha was $1.99. Of course, Magic wasn't supposed to sell anything close to what it turned into.
And FTV isn't supposed to sell anything close to what M10 turned into.
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1959
Also how am I a jerk for asking my store to sell me something for a price that which other stores are selling it for? At least they would sell it rather than just sit there collecting dust. Rather than sell for what SCG dictates it's value.
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
The problem is, since the distribution is so limited, there are enough people who say "That's cool! I'd pay even more for that!" and so buy it at $100-$150. So unless you manage a total boycott, those people will buy it, and the sales numbers won't change. Your point is absolutely correct, in that we the consumer ultimately set the price. However, there is a percentage of us that is willing to spend the effective retail price to own this. Until you can convince that top percentage to withhold their dollars, the prices will not drop.
WOTC puts a great deal of thought into these things. Usually the prices of the individual cards are greater than MSRP. Liliana + Garruk + Bad Moon + Mutilate + Rancor etc added up to more than $20. Similarly, Diamond alone seems to be more than the $35 MSRP. Diamond + Disk + Masticore + whatever else is in here will probably easily add up to the $75 that I expect to see it selling for in my area. Knowing that it's a "deal" drives demand.
Clearly you don't. First of all, 11 of the cards are unknown, so you can't make this assessment. Second of all, people use Memory Jar and Disk. Even if it's only for cubes and EDH, people still use them a LOT, and foils of them, particularly the disk where foils have not previously existed, will be highly sought after as both EDH and Cube are formats that people like to pimp out. Anyone buying this for JUST the Mox is an idiot.
#edit: Unless they're buying it for the Mox and intend to immediately trade/sell the rest. Buying it for the Mox and leaving the other 14 cards in a box somewhere is what would make one an idiot.
Its not the store that decides the value of FTV items its you. Most stores will look at ebay and see what it is going for before they sell it to their customers. Guess who drives ebay. Its not the stores saying oh i'm gona put it out at this price. its you guys bidding it up. This works for other cards as well. now granted Starcity has cornered the market on most things and sets most of the prices that you will see in a gaming store, ebay and your willingness to buy something from Starcity at their prices is what drives everything up.
While it is true that the price of FTV Exiled did hit a high point in the early going of $100 (we actually sold most of ours at that price as people were really going nuts for them O.o), it has cooled off to about $75 now online and we put our last few down to that price recently and proceeded to sell through the last few of those as well as an extra FTV Dragons that I decided to sell instead of keeping it to collect (Sold that one for $60 I think).
When "the market" (or in this case Ill just call it ebay ), says that the value of an item is a certain amount, I dont really see the issue of pricing it at what the market is saying it is worth, so long as they continue to sell and prices are adjusted as needed accordingly. As people have said, the reason wizards puts the MSRP on these things so low and makes it exclusive to brick and mortar stores is to help support those brick and mortar stores which are the backbone of the magic playerbase and sustainability of the game. Most shops with a decent amount of play space have a rather large amount of overhead costs they have to deal with. If we have an opportunity to make a little extra money to help offset those costs and all that playspace that you all get to use effectively for free, then I dont see the issue. If people dont want to pay the price being charged for the FTV, then they wouldnt sell at the higher price and we wouldnt be having this discussion. But the fact that people do pay the higher price makes it clear that the price being charged is a fair price.
Personally Im looking forward to seeing what all neat artifacts wizards has decided should be in this box set. The ones spoiled allready are quite impressive, so the rest (including the preview card for Scars of Mirrodin) should be interesting as well.
About the same as my chances of having Natalie Portman turn up at my house professing her undying devotion to me, whilst shuffling up her Red deck for a quick game
I imagine unless you have a friend who is a store owner, you will have to pay well over the recommended retail like most people!