Looks like it has been in planning stages for a while here....
This should hopefully shut up all the folks crying "WoW ripoff!"
Though I suppose a counter-argument could be that, seeing how the WoW TCG "plagiarized" Magic: the Gathering by copying the CCG model, Magic deserves to take back whatever it wants.
Don't like the product, don't buy it. Regular sets are still being released just as often they used to, no harm there.
Complaining about a business trying to make money is really one of the dumbest arguments in the world.
Someone explain to me the difference between a "cash grab" and a legitimate business decision? (I'm assuming the difference is "whether I like it or not.")
How is this not just Planechase with a slightly different concept. Either way I really want to see what they put in these, fingers crossed for something from Lights or M11.
I can't tell if this will be an interesting, fun multiplayer experience like Planechase, or another lame attempt by Wizards to take money away from us.
Take money away from you? Like, with a gun or something?
Because otherwise, you're making a conscious decision to exchange your money for a product. No one is forcing you to buy Archenemy, or WWK, or anything in general.
Wizards is a company. They make products to sell to people. Is this a shock to you?
If you find the product lame, perhaps you shouldn't give them your money for it... but they certainly don't "take" anything from you.
This should hopefully shut up all the folks crying "WoW ripoff!"
Though I suppose a counter-argument could be that, seeing how the WoW TCG "plagiarized" Magic: the Gathering by copying the CCG model, Magic deserves to take back whatever it wants.
Don't like the product, don't buy it. Regular sets are still being released just as often they used to, no harm there.
Complaining about a business trying to make money is really one of the dumbest arguments in the world.
Someone explain to me the difference between a "cash grab" and a legitimate business decision? (I'm assuming the difference is "whether I like it or not.")
That's not to say that Wizards couldn't have shelved Power Lunch, and then revisited it when the raid decks showed popularity and profitability. Companies say "me too" all the time when it comes to expanding their products to particular market areas. How they choose to do so is the real question. I don't see anything wrong with aping the concept of Raid decks, as long as the end product is fun to play.
And since the core game is Magic and not the WoW TCG, there's a good likelihood it will be.
Hmm, I think I would rather see WotC spend more time developing other variants (Planechase) than do completely new variants. I probably won't play this.
Though I suppose a counter-argument could be that, seeing how the WoW TCG "plagiarized" Magic: the Gathering by copying the CCG model, Magic deserves to take back whatever it wants.
I know! I don't think game designers should be ashamed of repurposing mechanics. I don't like that WotC patented CCGs in the first place, I don't think WoW is "ripping off" Magic by using the same broad concept, and I don't think WotC is "ripping off" anybody by rolling back ideas that have worked well in other games into Magic.
I do think it's quite likely that WotC decided to revisit the shelved "Power Lunch" concept in part because they saw evidence from Raid Decks and whatever the Vs. versions are called that this is a gameplay style people are interested in and that can be executed well; I just think it's funny that people to throw around unfounded accusations of who is ripping who off without actually looking at all the details or considering what level of inspiration is appropriate.
well at least now when we're playing casual multiplayer and a friend goes "why the hell are you guys picking on me T.T" we can say "It's freaking archenemey you idiot!!"
Maybe the over-sized cards are used to beat off the guys who are kicking your ass?
I'm with you though goliath. I also hope Planechase gets some more attention, or at least a re-release of those exclusive planes
The only problem I have with these variant formats is that they are too expensive to obtain (the Planechase cards for example, can be found only with the decks they come in, and they are too expensive to purchase all)
It turns out, Chaos Magic is even more fun, a loooot cheaper and more fun to build (cards are not as limited as Planechase).
I guess that is an inherent limitation of these formats. In a way an oxymoron, creating products for casual players. But from the looks of it they are still gaining popularity, so I guess good job, Wizards.
Not only was that posted on 2008, but it's a reprint of an article from the Duelist in 1999.
I know people love to knee-jerk shout out that WotC is ripping someone off, but in this particular case you are quite literally looking at a product that is almost certainly based on something WotC had in development before World of Warcraft the video game had even started development.
Tee hee! That's really cool!
Makes me wonder what other odd variants they are stewing. I never tinkered with variants until about 3 years ago, so I bet there's some pretty neat ideas I've never even heard of.
It will be extremely interesting to see how exactly they're going to make this work. The thing that makes WoW tcg raids work is the fact that the whole game is apparently designed around raids.
In other words, in WoW tcg it's extremely difficult or downright impossible to build such insanely tight control or combo decks as it is in Magic. For example, mass creature kill and even direct creature kill is pretty scarce in WoW. Counterspells are extremely rare (the last I checked, there were 2 hard counters in the entire game and a couple of situational ones, and even those were spread around the character classes so it'd be impossible to build a deck full of counters), and land destruction is practically nonexistent. (Only one stone rain kind of card in the whole game, and a couple of creature or quest effects that require some setup before they do their thing)
The ad says it's possible for one guy to take on, what, twenty others with these new archenemy cards. How insane do those Archenemy cards have to be for the Archenemy to have any kind of chances at all against, say, 2 finely tuned resource denial decks, 2 tight control decks and a couple of recursive combo kill decks?
About supporting Planechase - it was clearly stated how many card will see print - it is 45, it is written on every plane card, and it means that exactly two are left for print (personal note: some place from Mirage next time, please).
If there will be something else - it will be a product again - like the four sets with some junk decks attached for ballasting purposes.
Quite strange to see so many people fearing the ,,lack of support for Planechase'' here. I mean i like it, but is it really so popular? There was that thread in the variant formats with maybe twenty posts or something.
Then again - they do Archenemy, which probably means that Planechase sold well.
I don't think it will be a whole lot like Raid decks from WoW, since those cards tended to have an action that are usually fairly simple. Like "each player draws a card" or "exhaust all opponents resources" (tap all of their lands). Archenemy seems to be slightly different. I could see there being some cards like that but the impression I got is that Archenemy can be used with any deck, so I expect things like global black vices or racks, free underworld dreams. Something that scales with the number of opponents.
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About supporting Planechase - it was clearly stated how many card will see print - it is 45, it is written on every plane card, and it means that exactly two are left for print (personal note: some place from Mirage next time, please).
If there will be something else - it will be a product again - like the four sets with some junk decks attached for ballasting purposes.
Quite strange to see so many people fearing the ,,lack of support for Planechase'' here. I mean i like it, but is it really so popular? There was that thread in the variant formats with maybe twenty posts or something.
Then again - they do Archenemy, which probably means that Planechase sold well.
I think part of it is that given the expense of Planechase, it seems like many groups tend to have only one or two guys that collect ALL the planes then use the single planar deck variant with their personal collection, which means that the deckbuilding component of Planechase is sort of falling by the wayside (especially since even those who only bought one or two of the sets don't want to trade any of the planes away thanks to the current rarity of Vanguard cards and the perceived expense of Planechase as a format). I've toyed around with the idea of doing a Planechase Draft out of my stack of all forty non-promo planes where everyone drafts seven cards for a planar deck of their own, but plopping the stack in the middle of the table just seems so much easier (even if it does mean considering removing Glimmervoid Basin from the stack since every time the game planeswalks there I win and I'd prefer the format stay popular in my group considering my 80USD investment in it).
In any case, this lack of a deckbuilding element in what appears to be the most common form of Planechase means that online discussions about it are generally limited to rules questions and the occasional "what would you do in [insert game state here]?" sorts of things. Thus, you have a wildly popular format with large numbers of people who love to talk about how much they enjoy the format but not much to say outside of the game itself beyond that.
In my play group, we just shuffled together all the planes and turned it into chaos magic. But it works because I'm the only one who has all the planes (I'm also the only one with all the vanguard cards) since we just wanted a more consistent way of playing chaos magic.
For the record, Possessed Portal is hilariously awful on turn 3.
But until more is revealed about Archenemy, I'm not sure I see this being as customizable. I'd love to be wrong about that though because if I could play respawn-Vangaurd, planechasing archenemy, that would be beyond awesome.
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true, play experiences with Planechase are more like prerelease stories.
btw, here in Poland All-Planechase brick and mortar price is more like 120 bucks.
Ouch, that's awful. I got all four decks for $50 when they first came out.
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The problem of multiplayer planechase constructed is that even with only 45 planes, it seems like it would be really easy to construct a 10-card planar deck that would synergize well with, well various strategies (mostly combo, + some of the faster aggro). While you can't guarantee that, say, the 4 of 10 planes you'd wish to start with will ever come up, you do have a dramatic advantage over the planeless, having synced your deck and plane choices--this doesn't diminish if everyone uses your 10-card plane deck. You may have a certain sense of inevitibility--especially if you pack in an infinite mana combo. This is why it seems to work better as a 40+ card plane deck--your playgroup only needs to put together one plane deck, and almost anyone's deck is as likely to benefit from the random planes that show up (since they're all in there).
How this relates to Archenemy? If it comes with preconstucted decks, then those will be well balanced--can they overcome the 'planechase constructed' problem and have balanced sides with random constructed decks? Or will it quickly degenerate?
Not seeing this posted here yet, but Maro confirmed there will be more support for Planechase, and it kinda hints that we will have more formats to come as well
maro254 via twitter
For those worried that Archenemy means we've abandoned Planechase, fear not. We are trying build up a stable of multiplayer variants.
oversized? does that mean you can only play with other oversized cards in your oversized deck? i don't understand.
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"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."
oversized? does that mean you can only play with other oversized cards in your oversized deck? i don't understand.
Most likely, it'll play like Planechase - you have your regular deck, and your Archenemy deck. Archenemy cards go in the Command Zone, like Planes.
If it were *just* an archenemy deck, then you might have stuff like:
Superplains
Land - Plains
T: Add WW to your mana pool
Or other silly powerful cards. Probably, the Archenemy cards apply a rule to you (If you gain life, gain twice that much life instead), or to your opponents (Creatures your opponents control come into play tapped).
Yes, I hate saying "battlefield", why do you ask?
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The problem of multiplayer planechase constructed is that even with only 45 planes.............................................................
I thought only 43 had been released thus far.
40 from the 4 sets & 3 promos. What were the other 2 & are they out yet?
Joe
edit: My mistake there seems to be 44. What is #45? Has it been released yet?
I hope they make more plane cards & I hope they make a series 2 for decks.
I played Vs System for years & they did Giant sized VS with Galactus. It still is my fav format for VS. The Wow raid decks were weird. I thought it was impossible to win unless you teched against the raid decks & that takes all the fun out. I really look forward to Archenemy format.
If wizards makes Archenemy anything like Galactus Giant sized it will be a huge hit.
In my play group, we just shuffled together all the planes and turned it into chaos magic. But it works because I'm the only one who has all the planes (I'm also the only one with all the vanguard cards) since we just wanted a more consistent way of playing chaos magic.
For the record, Possessed Portal is hilariously awful on turn 3.
But until more is revealed about Archenemy, I'm not sure I see this being as customizable. I'd love to be wrong about that though because if I could play respawn-Vangaurd, planechasing archenemy, that would be beyond awesome.
We plan to play Respawn, Packwars, Planechase this weekend. I am not sure about Vanguards yet.
I was going to invest some cash for a chaos a deck until Planechase came out. It seemed cheaper to buy planechase then picking up a bunch of old cards on e-bay. Although adding chaos format to the mix may be craZyy!
Hey how do you guys manage whom gets what Vanguard?
I know that Planechase and Archenemy are designed for casual players, but they'd sell better and would be taken more seriously if they were made tournament legal.
EDIT: In hindsight, I realized that Archenemy only would work as its own tournament format.
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I played Vs System for years & they did Giant sized VS with Galactus. It still is my fav format for VS. The Wow raid decks were weird. I thought it was impossible to win unless you teched against the raid decks & that takes all the fun out. I really look forward to Archenemy format.]
Tofu! 100x yes Giant Sized VS was awesome. I was pumped when wizards made planechase, and Archenemy will play much more like fighting against Galactus for sure.
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TCG Platinum top 8 June 24th 2012
GPT Worcester 2012 2nd and 5-8th place same event 2 decks (2 running soul run ramp m13 standard)
This should hopefully shut up all the folks crying "WoW ripoff!"
Though I suppose a counter-argument could be that, seeing how the WoW TCG "plagiarized" Magic: the Gathering by copying the CCG model, Magic deserves to take back whatever it wants.
Don't like the product, don't buy it. Regular sets are still being released just as often they used to, no harm there.
Complaining about a business trying to make money is really one of the dumbest arguments in the world.
Someone explain to me the difference between a "cash grab" and a legitimate business decision? (I'm assuming the difference is "whether I like it or not.")
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Take money away from you? Like, with a gun or something?
Because otherwise, you're making a conscious decision to exchange your money for a product. No one is forcing you to buy Archenemy, or WWK, or anything in general.
Wizards is a company. They make products to sell to people. Is this a shock to you?
If you find the product lame, perhaps you shouldn't give them your money for it... but they certainly don't "take" anything from you.
That's not to say that Wizards couldn't have shelved Power Lunch, and then revisited it when the raid decks showed popularity and profitability. Companies say "me too" all the time when it comes to expanding their products to particular market areas. How they choose to do so is the real question. I don't see anything wrong with aping the concept of Raid decks, as long as the end product is fun to play.
And since the core game is Magic and not the WoW TCG, there's a good likelihood it will be.
That's really the weird thing to me..
I run a handful of griefer decks and all they do is make my playgroup hate me. Like really hate me. I keep them under wraps most of the time..
I don't see this going over very well tbh.
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I know! I don't think game designers should be ashamed of repurposing mechanics. I don't like that WotC patented CCGs in the first place, I don't think WoW is "ripping off" Magic by using the same broad concept, and I don't think WotC is "ripping off" anybody by rolling back ideas that have worked well in other games into Magic.
I do think it's quite likely that WotC decided to revisit the shelved "Power Lunch" concept in part because they saw evidence from Raid Decks and whatever the Vs. versions are called that this is a gameplay style people are interested in and that can be executed well; I just think it's funny that people to throw around unfounded accusations of who is ripping who off without actually looking at all the details or considering what level of inspiration is appropriate.
Maybe the over-sized cards are used to beat off the guys who are kicking your ass?
I'm with you though goliath. I also hope Planechase gets some more attention, or at least a re-release of those exclusive planes
The only problem I have with these variant formats is that they are too expensive to obtain (the Planechase cards for example, can be found only with the decks they come in, and they are too expensive to purchase all)
It turns out, Chaos Magic is even more fun, a loooot cheaper and more fun to build (cards are not as limited as Planechase).
I guess that is an inherent limitation of these formats. In a way an oxymoron, creating products for casual players. But from the looks of it they are still gaining popularity, so I guess good job, Wizards.
Tee hee! That's really cool!
Makes me wonder what other odd variants they are stewing. I never tinkered with variants until about 3 years ago, so I bet there's some pretty neat ideas I've never even heard of.
No really.
In other words, in WoW tcg it's extremely difficult or downright impossible to build such insanely tight control or combo decks as it is in Magic. For example, mass creature kill and even direct creature kill is pretty scarce in WoW. Counterspells are extremely rare (the last I checked, there were 2 hard counters in the entire game and a couple of situational ones, and even those were spread around the character classes so it'd be impossible to build a deck full of counters), and land destruction is practically nonexistent. (Only one stone rain kind of card in the whole game, and a couple of creature or quest effects that require some setup before they do their thing)
The ad says it's possible for one guy to take on, what, twenty others with these new archenemy cards. How insane do those Archenemy cards have to be for the Archenemy to have any kind of chances at all against, say, 2 finely tuned resource denial decks, 2 tight control decks and a couple of recursive combo kill decks?
Planechase planes say "X/40" not 45. You can clearly see them here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/51 The promo cards just say like 42 DCI, no number is given. And yes, Planechase is popular. The entire first print run sold out before Christmas.
I don't think it will be a whole lot like Raid decks from WoW, since those cards tended to have an action that are usually fairly simple. Like "each player draws a card" or "exhaust all opponents resources" (tap all of their lands). Archenemy seems to be slightly different. I could see there being some cards like that but the impression I got is that Archenemy can be used with any deck, so I expect things like global black vices or racks, free underworld dreams. Something that scales with the number of opponents.
reviews, recipes & ramblings
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I think part of it is that given the expense of Planechase, it seems like many groups tend to have only one or two guys that collect ALL the planes then use the single planar deck variant with their personal collection, which means that the deckbuilding component of Planechase is sort of falling by the wayside (especially since even those who only bought one or two of the sets don't want to trade any of the planes away thanks to the current rarity of Vanguard cards and the perceived expense of Planechase as a format). I've toyed around with the idea of doing a Planechase Draft out of my stack of all forty non-promo planes where everyone drafts seven cards for a planar deck of their own, but plopping the stack in the middle of the table just seems so much easier (even if it does mean considering removing Glimmervoid Basin from the stack since every time the game planeswalks there I win and I'd prefer the format stay popular in my group considering my 80USD investment in it).
In any case, this lack of a deckbuilding element in what appears to be the most common form of Planechase means that online discussions about it are generally limited to rules questions and the occasional "what would you do in [insert game state here]?" sorts of things. Thus, you have a wildly popular format with large numbers of people who love to talk about how much they enjoy the format but not much to say outside of the game itself beyond that.
For the record, Possessed Portal is hilariously awful on turn 3.
But until more is revealed about Archenemy, I'm not sure I see this being as customizable. I'd love to be wrong about that though because if I could play respawn-Vangaurd, planechasing archenemy, that would be beyond awesome.
reviews, recipes & ramblings
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Ouch, that's awful. I got all four decks for $50 when they first came out.
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How this relates to Archenemy? If it comes with preconstucted decks, then those will be well balanced--can they overcome the 'planechase constructed' problem and have balanced sides with random constructed decks? Or will it quickly degenerate?
maro254 via twitter
EDH:
WBGhost Council of OrzhovaBW
WUBErtai, the CorruptedWUB
CONSTRUCTED:
B Smallpox Control
Bloodbraid Elf Sligh RG
UW Draw-Go Weenie
Hosea 13:14
"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."
Most likely, it'll play like Planechase - you have your regular deck, and your Archenemy deck. Archenemy cards go in the Command Zone, like Planes.
If it were *just* an archenemy deck, then you might have stuff like:
Superplains
Land - Plains
T: Add WW to your mana pool
Or other silly powerful cards. Probably, the Archenemy cards apply a rule to you (If you gain life, gain twice that much life instead), or to your opponents (Creatures your opponents control come into play tapped).
Yes, I hate saying "battlefield", why do you ask?
I thought only 43 had been released thus far.
40 from the 4 sets & 3 promos. What were the other 2 & are they out yet?
Joe
edit: My mistake there seems to be 44. What is #45? Has it been released yet?
I hope they make more plane cards & I hope they make a series 2 for decks.
I played Vs System for years & they did Giant sized VS with Galactus. It still is my fav format for VS. The Wow raid decks were weird. I thought it was impossible to win unless you teched against the raid decks & that takes all the fun out. I really look forward to Archenemy format.
If wizards makes Archenemy anything like Galactus Giant sized it will be a huge hit.
Joe
We plan to play Respawn, Packwars, Planechase this weekend. I am not sure about Vanguards yet.
I was going to invest some cash for a chaos a deck until Planechase came out. It seemed cheaper to buy planechase then picking up a bunch of old cards on e-bay. Although adding chaos format to the mix may be craZyy!
Hey how do you guys manage whom gets what Vanguard?
Warning for triple post.
EDIT: In hindsight, I realized that Archenemy only would work as its own tournament format.
:symb::symu: Gravy Boat
:symu::symg: PickleStorm 2.0
:symr::symu::symb: You Have To Follow The Ruels
Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
Tofu! 100x yes Giant Sized VS was awesome. I was pumped when wizards made planechase, and Archenemy will play much more like fighting against Galactus for sure.
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SCG Worcester 10th place 2012
TCG Platinum top 8 June 24th 2012
GPT Worcester 2012 2nd and 5-8th place same event 2 decks (2 running soul run ramp m13 standard)
WR Boros Legion WR