Do you have any examples of cards that hose flying that aren't green and are in sets in the past 3-4 years?
Not counting Time Spiral block which has around 5 throwback/alternate-universe red anti-flying cards, of course.
Actually, Time Spiral block is a great example here, since hosing flying was something they considered to be so obviously outside red's normal color pie these days that they could introduce it as an "alternate universe" red mechanic in Planar Chaos.
Do you have any examples of cards that hose flying that aren't green and are in sets in the past 3-4 years?
No, but black had few if any examples of First Strike for years until they started printing black cards with it again.
The idea that if something hasn't been printed in the past 3-4 years for that color then it must be out of the color pie for that color is a non-sequitor.
Let's get down to brass tacks: WotC is deliberately vague about their revised color pie, and feels free to violate it whenever they want to anyway. In any case, a creature direct damage, anti-flying card for red is no more off-color than a creature direct damage, anti-flying card for green.
A good article, M11 is expected to start the run of new core sets which are defined through reinstating what the concepts behind each color exhibit and reinforcing the new rule sets. I just hope the rares/mythics will be at least slightly more balanced out this time
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The idea that if something hasn't been printed in the past 3-4 years for that color then it must be out of the color pie for that color is a non-sequitor.
We're not even talking 3-4 years. The last time a new red anti-flying card of this type was printed (outside Time Spiral block) was in 1998, in Exodus -- eleven years ago.
Let's get down to brass tacks: WotC is deliberately vague about their revised color pie, and feels free to violate it whenever they want to anyway.
Errr... no, neither of these things is remotely accurate. There are tons and tons of articles on dailymtg.com that explain in excessive detail what mechanics belong in which colors, tell us about changes to the colors' pie slices, etc. We have more than enough information to consistently make strong judgments on what is and is not in-color for most mechanics.
Your erroneous first strike example is a perfect one to look at here. In this article Rosewater specifically talks about how the "status quo" for a long time had each evergreen keyword in exactly one color; how he drafted a proposal (which was accepted) that broadened those evergreen keywords out to fit in more colors; and even mentions how first strike was specifically given "tertiary" status in black, to allow a few rare creatures to use it. The cards you're observing are all either from Time Spiral block (which uses two distinct incorrect color pies, on purpose) or were made after this explicit decision to print a few black first strikers.
(And even with that, it's worth noting that there have been only two black creatures with First Strike -- Black Knight and Vampire Hexmage -- printed in the last four years that weren't part of Time Spiral's purposely throwback/alternate-universe color pie.)
R&D is actually pretty good at sticking to their self-imposed rules and guidelines on this stuff, enough so that when there's an obvious breach of them (like Augury Adept from Shadowmoor) they get a bunch of negative feedback from players.
Except that, according to MaRo, Time Spiral doesn't go outside of color pie, but instead goes in secondary or tiercary abilities in the color pie.
Nope. I really suggest going back and reading the articles about that block again.
Time Spiral, in both its new and timeshifted cards, uses a color pie that includes many things that used to firmly be in some old color but were removed. That includes stuff that's 100% completely out of color now, like direct damage in blue.
Planar Chaos uses a color pie that's drawn from what Rosewater calls the "crust" of the color pie -- things that you can come up with a flavor justification for fitting in the color but which aren't actually part of it's defined pie. It has plenty of things that, again, are 100% out of color normally now -- flying in green, bounce in red, discard in blue.
In both cases, the presence of something in the set doesn't at all suggest that it's appropriate for any other set. Rosewater wrote at least two articles in which he strongly emphasized that nothing that happened color-pie wise in Time Spiral should be taken as anything but a vacation away from the "real" color pie that would (and, indeed, did) resume in Lorwyn.
Just because no red card with that ability hasn't been printed in a while doesn't mean it's out of flavor currently, unless you can cite a statement from WotC saying otherwise. Past cards: Burning Palm EfreetGoblin SharpshooterVertigo
Um, what does Sharpshooter have to do with flyers? It's a typical red ping ability.
(And even with that, it's worth noting that there have been only two black creatures with First Strike -- Black Knight and Vampire Hexmage -- printed in the last four years that weren't part of Time Spiral's purposely throwback/alternate-universe color pie.)
Just a small nit-pick, there was also Nekrataal in the 10th edition, as well as earlier cores.
As for Baneslayer Angel, I really hope they don't reprint it in the very next core set so that they can allow for more design space and to restore some balance for a while. WotC does not care about the secondary market, but hopefully they do care enough about the game to know that they created a card that if it is not deemed a staple it is at least important enough to appear consistently enough that it helps to define a format. It wouldn't be so bad if it was a normal rare, but due to the greater rarity of Mythics it does negatively influence the game by being so high in demand and so low in supply. I don't support a rarity decrease though since flavor-wise it is definitely mythic, but by rotating it for at least one set it would decrease its over all impact and then perhaps allow them to reprint it in a later set.
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charlequin: Wasn't Mesa Enchantress originally a colorshifted card from Planar Chaos but reprinted in M10? Not all of the alternative universe stuff from Planar Chaos can nor should be so easily handwaved away. Sure, most of the alt-color pie stuff won't be coming back anytime soon but perhaps some of it will. It just seems to me that the arguement that they won't reprint a color****ed idea that they havn't printed yet but arguable could because they havn't printed that idea yet is circular in nature. I would make the arguement that the altcolor pie can be take as different directions that they could take it but for the most part don't. Those shifts are unlikely but not impossible.
We're not even talking 3-4 years. The last time a new red anti-flying card of this type was printed (outside Time Spiral block) was in 1998, in Exodus -- eleven years ago.
Well, Thunderbolt is in the Beatdown Box Set, but I suppose that doesn't count.
Errr... no, neither of these things is remotely accurate.
It's absolutely accurate. The articles you're discussing are articles from non-designers regarding our *observations* of the color pie. None of these are definitive, particularly when the color pie changes, as it did recently. Remember that article where they showed that big picture of the color pie that had a bunch of abilities and mechanics printed on it, and they explicitly said they wouldn't print a higher rez version?
Your erroneous first strike example is a perfect one to look at here. In this article Rosewater specifically talks about how the "status quo" for a long time had each evergreen keyword in exactly one color; how he drafted a proposal (which was accepted) that broadened those evergreen keywords out to fit in more colors; and even mentions how first strike was specifically given "tertiary" status in black, to allow a few rare creatures to use it. The cards you're observing are all either from Time Spiral block (which uses two distinct incorrect color pies, on purpose) or were made after this explicit decision to print a few black first strikers.
No, that's exactly my point. Firstly, the claim that "anti-flying is out of red" is a specifically, positive claim that has to be defended by pointing to said color pie and a statement that says "Anti-flying is green, and secondary in blue, and is not in anything else." There's no such statement. Secondly, WotC can decide at any time something is in-color. First strike was actually ALWAYS in black, but then they said that those were exceptions and black shouldn't get first strike, and then they said they'll be giving black first strike more. So you can't claim anti-flying is off-color for red, especially since red has had such cards before, even if it's been a long time.
The article is actually quite supportive of my position. Firstly, while it mentions first strike for black as tertiary, it does not provide a full list of tertiary abilities for any color. Secondly, anti-flying is not mentioned AT ALL. Finally, it shows that the color pie is indeed mutable.
(And even with that, it's worth noting that there have been only two black creatures with First Strike -- Black Knight and Vampire Hexmage -- printed in the last four years that weren't part of Time Spiral's purposely throwback/alternate-universe color pie.)
Leaving aside the black creatures that get first strike from red pumping, you missed Yawgmoth Demon (9th edition -- okay, just outside your 4 year window), Nekrataal, and Crypt Champion (Double Strike includes First Strike). Honorable Mention goes to Cairn Wanderer.
R&D is actually pretty good at sticking to their self-imposed rules and guidelines on this stuff
Planar Chaos uses a color pie that's drawn from what Rosewater calls the "crust" of the color pie -- things that you can come up with a flavor justification for fitting in the color but which aren't actually part of it's defined pie. It has plenty of things that, again, are 100% out of color normally now -- flying in green, bounce in red, discard in blue.
Uhhh, no, the crust is part of the color pie. You can't claim stuff that's in the crust is out of the color pie when it's part of the color pie.
Maybe we're using different meanings of "out of color". You're using it as "Stuff like that rarely gets printed in that color", which is fine, but far different from "Stuff like that will never be printed in that color again without a major thematic reason" which I think is going a bit too far.
That being said, I'm totally willing to except that such explorations of the remote reaches of the color pie are not likely to be seen in core sets. Mark also said you have to know when to violate the rules, and they probably won't be doing a crust-exploring set for a while. (Although ROE...)
So is Earthbind within red's tertiary abilities? I still say yes. Moreover, the game doesn't collapse if you introduce Earthbind into the current environment. I totally recognize that it's not something we've seen in red in a while but I see nothing that says that it's verbotten -- unlike, say, Psionic Blast.
It's absolutely accurate. The articles you're discussing are articles from non-designers regarding our *observations* of the color pie.
No, I'm talking about many articles by Mark Rosewater (head of all Magic design), Tom LaPille (Magic developer), and other R&D employees who have written about the color pie, often in extensive detail.
Never once has anyone, to the best of my knowledge, indicated that the color pie should remain mysterious or that they won't give us a full and complete reckoning of its contents. Far from it; Rosewater has talked about how understanding the color pie gives players a deeper appreciation of the game since it lets people understand why each color does what it does.
Firstly, the claim that "anti-flying is out of red" is a specifically, positive claim that has to be defended by pointing to said color pie and a statement that says "Anti-flying is green, and secondary in blue, and is not in anything else."
I'd say it can be proven many different ways, such as through examining the evidence (years and years of sets in which anti-flying cards are given exclusively to green, Reach is printed almost exclusively in green, etc.) at hand and combining it with things we know about how Magic design works (like that color roles have become more clearly defined over the last decade, that abilities which are allowed in a given color will appear there sometimes so as to re-establish that they are indeed in-color there, etc.)
Secondly, WotC can decide at any time something is in-color.
Sure, but to a large degree that ("what if it's out of color now, but it changes to be perfectly in color right at the time of the set I'm talking about!") is an incredibly narrow edge case. What's really relevant to discussion is what's true right now and what's plausible in the near future.
So you can't claim anti-flying is off-color for red, especially since red has had such cards before, even if it's been a long time.
I don't think the idea that the only way to tell that a color has lost an ability permanently is to hear it explicitly stated makes much sense. Would you say that there's no way to tell that blue doesn't get direct damage anymore, even though it completely lost its pinging qualities during Odyssey block, other than the statements of R&D members?
it does not provide a full list of tertiary abilities for any color.
There are only two evergreen keywords that have a tertiary status: haste in green and first strike in black.
Secondly, anti-flying is not mentioned AT ALL.
Because... it's not an evergreen keyword.
Leaving aside the black creatures that get first strike from red pumping, you missed Yawgmoth Demon (9th edition -- okay, just outside your 4 year window), Nekrataal, and Crypt Champion (Double Strike includes First Strike).
I did miss Nekrataal; I skipped Yawgie for the reason you list (just outside the window). Crypt Champion doesn't count since it's a variant on a gold-card mechanic -- each of the six creatures in that part of the cycle are "technically" (by casting cost) one color, have an off-color keyword ability and an on-color ETB trigger, and require you to pay mana of a color that matches their off-color keyword ability in order to keep it from being sacrificed. You can see this the same way with Court Hussar, say, which has Vigilance (not a blue ability) because he only stays in play as a creature if you spend on him.
Uhhh, no, the crust is part of the color pie. You can't claim stuff that's in the crust is out of the color pie when it's part of the color pie.
The Crust – This is the outer layer. The crust holds ideas that fit the colors philosophically but represent choices that haven’t been made. This layer is the most disorienting because it is the least tied to what has been done. This layer cares nothing about execution. The crust is about what could (or maybe one day might) be. It is about what is possible given the philosophies of the colors.
The crust contains things that are philosophically compatible with a given color but are not actually within the realm of what that color is allowed to do in the present.
(I agree that it's confusing that he says this is "part of the color pie" but effectively goes on to say that it's "not really" part, but Mark picked the terminology, not me.)
You're using it as "Stuff like that rarely gets printed in that color", which is fine, but far different from "Stuff like that will never be printed in that color again without a major thematic reason" which I think is going a bit too far.
Each color has a few areas that it is explicitly excluded from, which I'd say is a stronger use than "out of color" -- this is stuff like enchantment-destruction in black, non-limited counterspells in green, etc. that are really actively inappropriate. I'm not saying anti-flying stuff falls in that category, just that it's in the category of stuff that red has exactly zero claim to, currently: it can't be printed as a card which is well in keeping with the modern pie, it is automatically a significant bleed, and it would be better suited as appearing in another color without a very good reason.
Moreover, the game doesn't collapse if you introduce Earthbind into the current environment.
The list of stuff that actually would collapse the game if reprinted is pretty short, IMO. I think it's important for design to care a lot about loose ends and frayed edges, little places where they can develop the game in internally coherent and cohesive ways, in addition to just avoiding complete catastrophes. Earthbind is the kind of thing that fits this category -- it's not an amazingly cool card, it couldn't carry over its most famous quality (its art) if it were reprinted now anyway, so why bring it back (and weaken the strength of the consistent color pie ideal) when something like a green colorshift of it could be a cool callback and still fit in the current pie?
charlequin: Wasn't Mesa Enchantress originally a colorshifted card from Planar Chaos but reprinted in M10? Not all of the alternative universe stuff from Planar Chaos can nor should be so easily handwaved away.
The same is true of Prodigal Pyromancer. These are part of a further complication of Planar Chaos' already complex color pie situation -- the non-timeshifted part of the set is using a weird, inaccurate color pie (such that most of the cards do things they shouldn't normally be allowed to) but the timeshifted cards, in order to fill every slot in with exact colorshifts of old cards, include both cards that are correctly colored originally being shifted into the "wrong," PC-specific color (like Reckless Wurm and Null Profusion) as well as cards being printed in an appropriate color, whether their original version was in the wrong color (Pyromancer) or another appropriate color (Enchantress).
The broader point is that no card from Time Spiral block can really serve as evidence on its own for a color pie shift, because the set is all using a purposely wonky pie. It's like an episode of a TV show that turns out to "all be a dream" -- there might be elements of what happen that coincidentally turn out to be accurate, but in general you have to write it off as stuff that happened in a dream and can't be relied on for evidence about what's true in the real world.
Hopefully this doesn't mean M11 will reprint a bunch of cards from M11.
Canyon Minotaur alone made me quite mad. Why did they print this when Alara has it?
Draft. For crying out loud how many times does this need to be repeated until people realize that drafting is a weekly tournament format for so many large cities.
Cards are not all built for constructed purposes. Infact I would rather them focus on draft alot more, Zendikar wasn't good at all. M2010 was ridiculously better.
Draft. For crying out loud how many times does this need to be repeated until people realize that drafting is a weekly tournament format for so many large cities.
For crying out loud how many times is this lame argument going to be repeated? Type 2 playable cards are nearly all playable in draft! There is no need for special poor "draft" cards when normal type 2 viable cards work fine in draft.
For crying out loud how many times is this lame argument going to be repeated? Type 2 playable cards are nearly all playable in draft! There is no need for special poor "draft" cards when normal type 2 viable cards work fine in draft.
Are you trying to say that all commons should be at the power level of Putrid Leech, which is playable in Type 2?
How would you have changed the "red hill giant" slot to make it Type 2 playable?
What impact would that have upon M10 being intended to be the most simple set available, as the current core set?
I think Wizards made several mistakes with M10, but the mistakes I think they made are apparently not the ones you think they made. It's funny how we can hold similar positions and yet see everything so differently, and certainly a good sign for WotC that different consumers see their mistakes differently - as that relegates it to different points of view liking different things, rather than obvious and glaring flaws with M10... of which there were, at most, one, and it was supply side.
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Tarmogoyf has no evasion, yet it sees tonnes of play. What makes this any different?
Minor bit on why the Hexmage has First Strike - I thought it was because of the new rules M10 rules. With First Strike, you can deal combat damage & still sacrifice for effect instead of choosing one or the other.
(Unless, of course, you're fighting another First Striker)
So if they wanted to bend the color pie, they could always make Mogg Fanatics & STE's with First Strike to get around the lack of stacking damage bit.
The crust contains things that are philosophically compatible with a given color but are not actually within the realm of what that color is allowed to do in the present.
(I agree that it's confusing that he says this is "part of the color pie" but effectively goes on to say that it's "not really" part, but Mark picked the terminology, not me.)
Let me shed some light on that.
Each colour has a definite collection of things it does, and how well it does them. These are its philosophical compatibilities. That is 'raw Pie'.
But for the good of the game, in each rotating format at least, there's only so much you can let one colour do at once. Saying where boundaries are in some particular format is... something that hasn't been given a name yet by Wizards people. Rosewater's Core/MAntle/Crust thing is rather confusing as it certainly doesn't line up with what Wizards actually does in a developmental timeline.
To get concrete, both White and Blue can tap things, and can arrest permanents. But you've seen, at different times, that these abilities have shifted around between the two.
The Pie facts which make these abilities match were constant the whole time, but there's an additional factor - some kind of 'ebbing', manufactured by the developers, which allots these mechanics the way we actually end up seeing them in some particular block of time. For instance, right now I'd say White is getting a hog on tap abilities, but both are getting arrests.
Doing this is nothing more than giving a certain 'feel' to the colours during a certain era - Shards-M10 era, I'd call it.
Each colour really can do quite a lot of stuff. But depending on certain factors - e.g., whether this "era" wants to empower monocolor decks; as some mechanics become more powerful in a certain format; - the good R&D team is going to want to have the actual, the 'manifested' (printed) part of the Pie, be subtly different than the last snapshot.
And of course my language is poor in describing this all as occurring discretely, when really it is successful in that it feels like a nondiscrete change (i.e., it isn't felt at all).
If you wanted to have multicolor in your format, what you'd do is you'd "put your colours on a diet"; you'd make them 'suck in' and stop instantiating a great part of some of their fringe capabilities, so that in order to get good breadth as a deck builder you'd have to use multicolor. Conversely, you could support monocolor decks by simply letting such abilities show up - giving near spell draw to Green, removal to White, discard to Blue, and so on.
More of the time, though, this would link with the project to set up a block's themes. If it's a creature block, creature mechanics become good and so, you want to look more careful about what colours can do to the things that are relevant. But the things in the background, though, can get expanded. Witness mana fixing making a recurrence across colours in Zendikar (surely the one mechanic that truly has no allegiance).
I've gone on a bit, and am not sure I've made things clear, but that is, I think, what he means be 'allowed to do in the present' (if he ever put things that way). The decisions which have been made to shape 'this era' of Magic are the boundaries that cannot be broken at present - and will be referred to (with great annoying amphiboly) as the things that make this or that card "outside the Color Pie" by Wizards' people on mtgcom.
Which, by the way, is why I agree that they do like making everything about that thing ridiculously vague. What they get out of it is something for Vorthoses (and some breeds of Johnnies) to eat up... while never writing themselves out of the chance to grab up big bucks from Spike who wants "that only Blue kill spell" or whatever garbage they find some way to bamboozle most people about.
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Are you trying to say that all commons should be at the power level of Putrid Leech, which is playable in Type 2?
How would you have changed the "red hill giant" slot to make it Type 2 playable?
What impact would that have upon M10 being intended to be the most simple set available, as the current core set?
I think Wizards made several mistakes with M10, but the mistakes I think they made are apparently not the ones you think they made. It's funny how we can hold similar positions and yet see everything so differently, and certainly a good sign for WotC that different consumers see their mistakes differently - as that relegates it to different points of view liking different things, rather than obvious and glaring flaws with M10... of which there were, at most, one, and it was supply side.
For a good example, look at zendikar black. Except for maybe 1 or 2 creatures, all of the common stuff is playable in the right deck. Why they insist on printing unplayable trash in other colors I'll never understand.
For crying out loud how many times is this lame argument going to be repeated? Type 2 playable cards are nearly all playable in draft! There is no need for special poor "draft" cards when normal type 2 viable cards work fine in draft.
This is not a statement that anyone who regularly drafts would ever make.
Draft is a completely different format from any constructed format, with completely different concerns. The best cards that regularly appear in draft formats aren't the Type 2 power cards or the 2/2s for 1 -- it's the 3/3 flyers for 5, or the efficient bounce effects, or what have you.
Designing a fun and enjoyable draft format involves printing tons of cards that are pointless and uninteresting in Constructed formats. This is just a reality of the game (and has been for years) so it doesn't make much sense to complain about these limited cards (which are all commons anyway) now.
I've spoken to WotC's several times about this exactly. The stance is:
The secondary market exists, but they do not base any decisions on what it does or does not do. Also, packs, regardless of value are all equal to WotC, and individual cards are never ever commented on.
WotC knows the secondary market exists, but they will never ever make a statement about it for legal reasons. They don't even want the possibility of perception of market influence.
And having played games like poxnora, where the manufacturer also sold singles... It's a good idea to stay removed from that conflict.
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They have to be concerned about the secondary market because if there aren't any (in-print) cards that are expensive on the secondary market, people don't have as much incentive to buy packs.
Personally, I like drafting, so I'll buy some if there's a combination of fun in the draft format and cards I want. I even liked Coldsnap draft pretty alright (I think that there were a few balance issues, with for example the black ripple card - some strategies that are only occasionally good are fine, but the thing with that one is that if it worked, it could be "discard your hand" on turn 2, which is just no fun to lose to, even if it rarely it happens). But drafting a white-blue snow control deck with Sunscour, Heidar and a few Rimewind Taskmages was one of the most fun drafts I've ever done (and I went undefeated...). Unfortunately, Coldsnap didn't have much to offer for great rares beyond Ohran Viper and Dark Depths (and Dark Depths was a junk rare at the time, and when Kamigawa rotated, the Viper became less useful since it couldn't be part of a snake-tribal deck).
Errr... but I digress. The point was that I could enjoy a set even if it didn't have big chase rares, but this clearly isn't the case for a lot of people. Coldsnap didn't have money rares, so people didn't buy it much.
At any rate, they might not be concerned about it in the sense of "Well, if we reprint some random card that's mostly expensive now for being old, its value will go down if it's not playable (adding supply but not demand) or its value will go up a bit (demand from being played in standard)" but I think they are concerned with it insofar as it affects their bottom-line. Will they make or not make a decision based on whether it would cause Baneslayer's price to tank, and how this will affect the people who already own them? I doubt it. But the fact that Baneslayer is $50 is very relevant to them and I'm certain that they pay close attention to facts like that.
And I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did make decisions based on how expensive chase rares are/might be because that can affect them. And I'm sure they're aware that too many "Walletslayers" can alienate some players (getting players into competitive play is good for business, making the cost of getting into competitive play prohibitively high might end up being bad for business, for example).
They have to be concerned about the secondary market because if there aren't any (in-print) cards that are expensive on the secondary market, people don't have as much incentive to buy packs.
Personally, I like drafting, so I'll buy some if there's a combination of fun in the draft format and cards I want. I even liked Coldsnap draft pretty alright (I think that there were a few balance issues, with for example the black ripple card - some strategies that are only occasionally good are fine, but the thing with that one is that if it worked, it could be "discard your hand" on turn 2, which is just no fun to lose to, even if it rarely it happens). But drafting a white-blue snow control deck with Sunscour, Heidar and a few Rimewind Taskmages was one of the most fun drafts I've ever done (and I went undefeated...). Unfortunately, Coldsnap didn't have much to offer for great rares beyond Ohran Viper and Dark Depths (and Dark Depths was a junk rare at the time, and when Kamigawa rotated, the Viper became less useful since it couldn't be part of a snake-tribal deck).
Errr... but I digress. The point was that I could enjoy a set even if it didn't have big chase rares, but this clearly isn't the case for a lot of people. Coldsnap didn't have money rares, so people didn't buy it much.
At any rate, they might not be concerned about it in the sense of "Well, if we reprint some random card that's mostly expensive now for being old, its value will go down if it's not playable (adding supply but not demand) or its value will go up a bit (demand from being played in standard)" but I think they are concerned with it insofar as it affects their bottom-line. Will they make or not make a decision based on whether it would cause Baneslayer's price to tank, and how this will affect the people who already own them? I doubt it. But the fact that Baneslayer is $50 is very relevant to them and I'm certain that they pay close attention to facts like that.
And I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did make decisions based on how expensive chase rares are/might be because that can affect them. And I'm sure they're aware that too many "Walletslayers" can alienate some players (getting players into competitive play is good for business, making the cost of getting into competitive play prohibitively high might end up being bad for business, for example).
Baneslayer is in M10.
Cards that are expensive are:
-Overpowered (and format-warping)
-On the reserve list
BSA is not either of those.
BSA is not a Tarmogoyf, but (mostly?) because of the way M10's supply turned out, the price shot up.
Can anyone think of another expensive, reprintable card that WoTC continually 'avoids' reprinting?
Hamtastic has interviewed WoTC staff. So I don't see why they would be lying to him.
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They have to be concerned about the secondary market because if there aren't any (in-print) cards that are expensive on the secondary market, people don't have as much incentive to buy packs.
Personally, I like drafting, so I'll buy some if there's a combination of fun in the draft format and cards I want. I even liked Coldsnap draft pretty alright (I think that there were a few balance issues, with for example the black ripple card - some strategies that are only occasionally good are fine, but the thing with that one is that if it worked, it could be "discard your hand" on turn 2, which is just no fun to lose to, even if it rarely it happens). But drafting a white-blue snow control deck with Sunscour, Heidar and a few Rimewind Taskmages was one of the most fun drafts I've ever done (and I went undefeated...). Unfortunately, Coldsnap didn't have much to offer for great rares beyond Ohran Viper and Dark Depths (and Dark Depths was a junk rare at the time, and when Kamigawa rotated, the Viper became less useful since it couldn't be part of a snake-tribal deck).
Errr... but I digress. The point was that I could enjoy a set even if it didn't have big chase rares, but this clearly isn't the case for a lot of people. Coldsnap didn't have money rares, so people didn't buy it much.
At any rate, they might not be concerned about it in the sense of "Well, if we reprint some random card that's mostly expensive now for being old, its value will go down if it's not playable (adding supply but not demand) or its value will go up a bit (demand from being played in standard)" but I think they are concerned with it insofar as it affects their bottom-line. Will they make or not make a decision based on whether it would cause Baneslayer's price to tank, and how this will affect the people who already own them? I doubt it. But the fact that Baneslayer is $50 is very relevant to them and I'm certain that they pay close attention to facts like that.
And I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did make decisions based on how expensive chase rares are/might be because that can affect them. And I'm sure they're aware that too many "Walletslayers" can alienate some players (getting players into competitive play is good for business, making the cost of getting into competitive play prohibitively high might end up being bad for business, for example).
I'm not sure I follow your logic on this, please help me out where I'm missing your point.
WotC knows the secondary market exists (I said as much in the post you quoted). They know that cards have value. However, their official stance and policy is that cards are worth whatever they're worth, and a pack is worth 3.99 (MSRP) and products are worth whatever it is their worth, MSRP. Again, this is just their official policy. I'm not naive enough to think that they can't or don't utilize the structure they have in place to make money. That would be foolish the extreme. But there's a large difference between WotC saying "Baneslayer is worth 39.99 and that's what you can buy her for at the store" vs "Here's a card that completely dominates the Standard format."
The former is being in the secondary market, the latter is acknowledging the secondary market.
Flash back to Damnation. The format it was released into was lacking a black sweeper of any kind. It had all the other tools in it to be dominating force in Standard but it was missing a sweeper... lo and behold, Damnation was printed. And, amazingly, it was a high cost rare. WotC isn't stupid, they know full well that some cards are going to be very good in the format, and will become chase rares. That means that they will be expensive, but they will only get as high or as low as what the market deems them to be worth. They even go so far as to not acknowledge that certain packs are worth more or less on MTGO, just to avoid the implication that they are supporting one format more than another with 'more valuable' prizes.
I'm hoping that clarified my position about "They acknowledge it exists but they don't do anything based on it". They know Baneslayer is expensive, and they know why, but they didn't set her price. We did, as we fought for the available copies.
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Yes i think i can think of a few cards that wizards will not reprint because they are too good.Im looking at you mana drain and exploration. Why have a card that is not on the reserved list and not give it a chance to be reprinted. Mana drain for obvious reasons but every other card from urza's saga was reserved. Why was exploration left off?
They could reprint the goblin piledriver but they wont. I digress.
The color pie is a unique deal. White has it abilities and all colors do. Green rarely has fliers but has reachers and red has no fliers but dragons. Who ever heard of a flying goblin sept the ballon brigade and the goblin glider?
Not counting Time Spiral block which has around 5 throwback/alternate-universe red anti-flying cards, of course.
Actually, Time Spiral block is a great example here, since hosing flying was something they considered to be so obviously outside red's normal color pie these days that they could introduce it as an "alternate universe" red mechanic in Planar Chaos.
No, but black had few if any examples of First Strike for years until they started printing black cards with it again.
The idea that if something hasn't been printed in the past 3-4 years for that color then it must be out of the color pie for that color is a non-sequitor.
Let's get down to brass tacks: WotC is deliberately vague about their revised color pie, and feels free to violate it whenever they want to anyway. In any case, a creature direct damage, anti-flying card for red is no more off-color than a creature direct damage, anti-flying card for green.
WUB TransmutElixir
WU <Mirror Mania>
Mono B Discard
(((W/U)(Shield)(W/U)))
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We're not even talking 3-4 years. The last time a new red anti-flying card of this type was printed (outside Time Spiral block) was in 1998, in Exodus -- eleven years ago.
Errr... no, neither of these things is remotely accurate. There are tons and tons of articles on dailymtg.com that explain in excessive detail what mechanics belong in which colors, tell us about changes to the colors' pie slices, etc. We have more than enough information to consistently make strong judgments on what is and is not in-color for most mechanics.
Your erroneous first strike example is a perfect one to look at here. In this article Rosewater specifically talks about how the "status quo" for a long time had each evergreen keyword in exactly one color; how he drafted a proposal (which was accepted) that broadened those evergreen keywords out to fit in more colors; and even mentions how first strike was specifically given "tertiary" status in black, to allow a few rare creatures to use it. The cards you're observing are all either from Time Spiral block (which uses two distinct incorrect color pies, on purpose) or were made after this explicit decision to print a few black first strikers.
(And even with that, it's worth noting that there have been only two black creatures with First Strike -- Black Knight and Vampire Hexmage -- printed in the last four years that weren't part of Time Spiral's purposely throwback/alternate-universe color pie.)
R&D is actually pretty good at sticking to their self-imposed rules and guidelines on this stuff, enough so that when there's an obvious breach of them (like Augury Adept from Shadowmoor) they get a bunch of negative feedback from players.
Nope. I really suggest going back and reading the articles about that block again.
Time Spiral, in both its new and timeshifted cards, uses a color pie that includes many things that used to firmly be in some old color but were removed. That includes stuff that's 100% completely out of color now, like direct damage in blue.
Planar Chaos uses a color pie that's drawn from what Rosewater calls the "crust" of the color pie -- things that you can come up with a flavor justification for fitting in the color but which aren't actually part of it's defined pie. It has plenty of things that, again, are 100% out of color normally now -- flying in green, bounce in red, discard in blue.
In both cases, the presence of something in the set doesn't at all suggest that it's appropriate for any other set. Rosewater wrote at least two articles in which he strongly emphasized that nothing that happened color-pie wise in Time Spiral should be taken as anything but a vacation away from the "real" color pie that would (and, indeed, did) resume in Lorwyn.
Um, what does Sharpshooter have to do with flyers? It's a typical red ping ability.
Just a small nit-pick, there was also Nekrataal in the 10th edition, as well as earlier cores.
As for Baneslayer Angel, I really hope they don't reprint it in the very next core set so that they can allow for more design space and to restore some balance for a while. WotC does not care about the secondary market, but hopefully they do care enough about the game to know that they created a card that if it is not deemed a staple it is at least important enough to appear consistently enough that it helps to define a format. It wouldn't be so bad if it was a normal rare, but due to the greater rarity of Mythics it does negatively influence the game by being so high in demand and so low in supply. I don't support a rarity decrease though since flavor-wise it is definitely mythic, but by rotating it for at least one set it would decrease its over all impact and then perhaps allow them to reprint it in a later set.
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Waiting for Innistrad...
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Hah!
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None
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Pink Floyd (UWr Wall Control)
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Well, Thunderbolt is in the Beatdown Box Set, but I suppose that doesn't count.
It's absolutely accurate. The articles you're discussing are articles from non-designers regarding our *observations* of the color pie. None of these are definitive, particularly when the color pie changes, as it did recently. Remember that article where they showed that big picture of the color pie that had a bunch of abilities and mechanics printed on it, and they explicitly said they wouldn't print a higher rez version?
No, that's exactly my point. Firstly, the claim that "anti-flying is out of red" is a specifically, positive claim that has to be defended by pointing to said color pie and a statement that says "Anti-flying is green, and secondary in blue, and is not in anything else." There's no such statement. Secondly, WotC can decide at any time something is in-color. First strike was actually ALWAYS in black, but then they said that those were exceptions and black shouldn't get first strike, and then they said they'll be giving black first strike more. So you can't claim anti-flying is off-color for red, especially since red has had such cards before, even if it's been a long time.
The article is actually quite supportive of my position. Firstly, while it mentions first strike for black as tertiary, it does not provide a full list of tertiary abilities for any color. Secondly, anti-flying is not mentioned AT ALL. Finally, it shows that the color pie is indeed mutable.
Leaving aside the black creatures that get first strike from red pumping, you missed Yawgmoth Demon (9th edition -- okay, just outside your 4 year window), Nekrataal, and Crypt Champion (Double Strike includes First Strike). Honorable Mention goes to Cairn Wanderer.
R&D is actually pretty good at sticking to their self-imposed rules and guidelines on this stuff
Uhhh, no, the crust is part of the color pie. You can't claim stuff that's in the crust is out of the color pie when it's part of the color pie.
Maybe we're using different meanings of "out of color". You're using it as "Stuff like that rarely gets printed in that color", which is fine, but far different from "Stuff like that will never be printed in that color again without a major thematic reason" which I think is going a bit too far.
That being said, I'm totally willing to except that such explorations of the remote reaches of the color pie are not likely to be seen in core sets. Mark also said you have to know when to violate the rules, and they probably won't be doing a crust-exploring set for a while. (Although ROE...)
So is Earthbind within red's tertiary abilities? I still say yes. Moreover, the game doesn't collapse if you introduce Earthbind into the current environment. I totally recognize that it's not something we've seen in red in a while but I see nothing that says that it's verbotten -- unlike, say, Psionic Blast.
No, I'm talking about many articles by Mark Rosewater (head of all Magic design), Tom LaPille (Magic developer), and other R&D employees who have written about the color pie, often in extensive detail.
Never once has anyone, to the best of my knowledge, indicated that the color pie should remain mysterious or that they won't give us a full and complete reckoning of its contents. Far from it; Rosewater has talked about how understanding the color pie gives players a deeper appreciation of the game since it lets people understand why each color does what it does.
I'd say it can be proven many different ways, such as through examining the evidence (years and years of sets in which anti-flying cards are given exclusively to green, Reach is printed almost exclusively in green, etc.) at hand and combining it with things we know about how Magic design works (like that color roles have become more clearly defined over the last decade, that abilities which are allowed in a given color will appear there sometimes so as to re-establish that they are indeed in-color there, etc.)
Sure, but to a large degree that ("what if it's out of color now, but it changes to be perfectly in color right at the time of the set I'm talking about!") is an incredibly narrow edge case. What's really relevant to discussion is what's true right now and what's plausible in the near future.
I don't think the idea that the only way to tell that a color has lost an ability permanently is to hear it explicitly stated makes much sense. Would you say that there's no way to tell that blue doesn't get direct damage anymore, even though it completely lost its pinging qualities during Odyssey block, other than the statements of R&D members?
There are only two evergreen keywords that have a tertiary status: haste in green and first strike in black.
Because... it's not an evergreen keyword.
I did miss Nekrataal; I skipped Yawgie for the reason you list (just outside the window). Crypt Champion doesn't count since it's a variant on a gold-card mechanic -- each of the six creatures in that part of the cycle are "technically" (by casting cost) one color, have an off-color keyword ability and an on-color ETB trigger, and require you to pay mana of a color that matches their off-color keyword ability in order to keep it from being sacrificed. You can see this the same way with Court Hussar, say, which has Vigilance (not a blue ability) because he only stays in play as a creature if you spend on him.
I'll quote Rosewater's article on this subject:
The crust contains things that are philosophically compatible with a given color but are not actually within the realm of what that color is allowed to do in the present.
(I agree that it's confusing that he says this is "part of the color pie" but effectively goes on to say that it's "not really" part, but Mark picked the terminology, not me.)
Each color has a few areas that it is explicitly excluded from, which I'd say is a stronger use than "out of color" -- this is stuff like enchantment-destruction in black, non-limited counterspells in green, etc. that are really actively inappropriate. I'm not saying anti-flying stuff falls in that category, just that it's in the category of stuff that red has exactly zero claim to, currently: it can't be printed as a card which is well in keeping with the modern pie, it is automatically a significant bleed, and it would be better suited as appearing in another color without a very good reason.
The list of stuff that actually would collapse the game if reprinted is pretty short, IMO. I think it's important for design to care a lot about loose ends and frayed edges, little places where they can develop the game in internally coherent and cohesive ways, in addition to just avoiding complete catastrophes. Earthbind is the kind of thing that fits this category -- it's not an amazingly cool card, it couldn't carry over its most famous quality (its art) if it were reprinted now anyway, so why bring it back (and weaken the strength of the consistent color pie ideal) when something like a green colorshift of it could be a cool callback and still fit in the current pie?
The same is true of Prodigal Pyromancer. These are part of a further complication of Planar Chaos' already complex color pie situation -- the non-timeshifted part of the set is using a weird, inaccurate color pie (such that most of the cards do things they shouldn't normally be allowed to) but the timeshifted cards, in order to fill every slot in with exact colorshifts of old cards, include both cards that are correctly colored originally being shifted into the "wrong," PC-specific color (like Reckless Wurm and Null Profusion) as well as cards being printed in an appropriate color, whether their original version was in the wrong color (Pyromancer) or another appropriate color (Enchantress).
The broader point is that no card from Time Spiral block can really serve as evidence on its own for a color pie shift, because the set is all using a purposely wonky pie. It's like an episode of a TV show that turns out to "all be a dream" -- there might be elements of what happen that coincidentally turn out to be accurate, but in general you have to write it off as stuff that happened in a dream and can't be relied on for evidence about what's true in the real world.
Draft. For crying out loud how many times does this need to be repeated until people realize that drafting is a weekly tournament format for so many large cities.
Cards are not all built for constructed purposes. Infact I would rather them focus on draft alot more, Zendikar wasn't good at all. M2010 was ridiculously better.
For crying out loud how many times is this lame argument going to be repeated? Type 2 playable cards are nearly all playable in draft! There is no need for special poor "draft" cards when normal type 2 viable cards work fine in draft.
How would you have changed the "red hill giant" slot to make it Type 2 playable?
What impact would that have upon M10 being intended to be the most simple set available, as the current core set?
I think Wizards made several mistakes with M10, but the mistakes I think they made are apparently not the ones you think they made. It's funny how we can hold similar positions and yet see everything so differently, and certainly a good sign for WotC that different consumers see their mistakes differently - as that relegates it to different points of view liking different things, rather than obvious and glaring flaws with M10... of which there were, at most, one, and it was supply side.
(Unless, of course, you're fighting another First Striker)
So if they wanted to bend the color pie, they could always make Mogg Fanatics & STE's with First Strike to get around the lack of stacking damage bit.
Let me shed some light on that.
Each colour has a definite collection of things it does, and how well it does them. These are its philosophical compatibilities. That is 'raw Pie'.
But for the good of the game, in each rotating format at least, there's only so much you can let one colour do at once. Saying where boundaries are in some particular format is... something that hasn't been given a name yet by Wizards people. Rosewater's Core/MAntle/Crust thing is rather confusing as it certainly doesn't line up with what Wizards actually does in a developmental timeline.
To get concrete, both White and Blue can tap things, and can arrest permanents. But you've seen, at different times, that these abilities have shifted around between the two.
The Pie facts which make these abilities match were constant the whole time, but there's an additional factor - some kind of 'ebbing', manufactured by the developers, which allots these mechanics the way we actually end up seeing them in some particular block of time. For instance, right now I'd say White is getting a hog on tap abilities, but both are getting arrests.
Doing this is nothing more than giving a certain 'feel' to the colours during a certain era - Shards-M10 era, I'd call it.
Each colour really can do quite a lot of stuff. But depending on certain factors - e.g., whether this "era" wants to empower monocolor decks; as some mechanics become more powerful in a certain format; - the good R&D team is going to want to have the actual, the 'manifested' (printed) part of the Pie, be subtly different than the last snapshot.
And of course my language is poor in describing this all as occurring discretely, when really it is successful in that it feels like a nondiscrete change (i.e., it isn't felt at all).
If you wanted to have multicolor in your format, what you'd do is you'd "put your colours on a diet"; you'd make them 'suck in' and stop instantiating a great part of some of their fringe capabilities, so that in order to get good breadth as a deck builder you'd have to use multicolor. Conversely, you could support monocolor decks by simply letting such abilities show up - giving near spell draw to Green, removal to White, discard to Blue, and so on.
More of the time, though, this would link with the project to set up a block's themes. If it's a creature block, creature mechanics become good and so, you want to look more careful about what colours can do to the things that are relevant. But the things in the background, though, can get expanded. Witness mana fixing making a recurrence across colours in Zendikar (surely the one mechanic that truly has no allegiance).
I've gone on a bit, and am not sure I've made things clear, but that is, I think, what he means be 'allowed to do in the present' (if he ever put things that way). The decisions which have been made to shape 'this era' of Magic are the boundaries that cannot be broken at present - and will be referred to (with great annoying amphiboly) as the things that make this or that card "outside the Color Pie" by Wizards' people on mtgcom.
Which, by the way, is why I agree that they do like making everything about that thing ridiculously vague. What they get out of it is something for Vorthoses (and some breeds of Johnnies) to eat up... while never writing themselves out of the chance to grab up big bucks from Spike who wants "that only Blue kill spell" or whatever garbage they find some way to bamboozle most people about.
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For a good example, look at zendikar black. Except for maybe 1 or 2 creatures, all of the common stuff is playable in the right deck. Why they insist on printing unplayable trash in other colors I'll never understand.
This is not a statement that anyone who regularly drafts would ever make.
Draft is a completely different format from any constructed format, with completely different concerns. The best cards that regularly appear in draft formats aren't the Type 2 power cards or the 2/2s for 1 -- it's the 3/3 flyers for 5, or the efficient bounce effects, or what have you.
Designing a fun and enjoyable draft format involves printing tons of cards that are pointless and uninteresting in Constructed formats. This is just a reality of the game (and has been for years) so it doesn't make much sense to complain about these limited cards (which are all commons anyway) now.
I've spoken to WotC's several times about this exactly. The stance is:
The secondary market exists, but they do not base any decisions on what it does or does not do. Also, packs, regardless of value are all equal to WotC, and individual cards are never ever commented on.
WotC knows the secondary market exists, but they will never ever make a statement about it for legal reasons. They don't even want the possibility of perception of market influence.
And having played games like poxnora, where the manufacturer also sold singles... It's a good idea to stay removed from that conflict.
MTGO Writer and Epic Time-Waster.
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They have to be concerned about the secondary market because if there aren't any (in-print) cards that are expensive on the secondary market, people don't have as much incentive to buy packs.
Personally, I like drafting, so I'll buy some if there's a combination of fun in the draft format and cards I want. I even liked Coldsnap draft pretty alright (I think that there were a few balance issues, with for example the black ripple card - some strategies that are only occasionally good are fine, but the thing with that one is that if it worked, it could be "discard your hand" on turn 2, which is just no fun to lose to, even if it rarely it happens). But drafting a white-blue snow control deck with Sunscour, Heidar and a few Rimewind Taskmages was one of the most fun drafts I've ever done (and I went undefeated...). Unfortunately, Coldsnap didn't have much to offer for great rares beyond Ohran Viper and Dark Depths (and Dark Depths was a junk rare at the time, and when Kamigawa rotated, the Viper became less useful since it couldn't be part of a snake-tribal deck).
Errr... but I digress. The point was that I could enjoy a set even if it didn't have big chase rares, but this clearly isn't the case for a lot of people. Coldsnap didn't have money rares, so people didn't buy it much.
At any rate, they might not be concerned about it in the sense of "Well, if we reprint some random card that's mostly expensive now for being old, its value will go down if it's not playable (adding supply but not demand) or its value will go up a bit (demand from being played in standard)" but I think they are concerned with it insofar as it affects their bottom-line. Will they make or not make a decision based on whether it would cause Baneslayer's price to tank, and how this will affect the people who already own them? I doubt it. But the fact that Baneslayer is $50 is very relevant to them and I'm certain that they pay close attention to facts like that.
And I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did make decisions based on how expensive chase rares are/might be because that can affect them. And I'm sure they're aware that too many "Walletslayers" can alienate some players (getting players into competitive play is good for business, making the cost of getting into competitive play prohibitively high might end up being bad for business, for example).
Baneslayer is in M10.
Cards that are expensive are:
-Overpowered (and format-warping)
-On the reserve list
BSA is not either of those.
BSA is not a Tarmogoyf, but (mostly?) because of the way M10's supply turned out, the price shot up.
Can anyone think of another expensive, reprintable card that WoTC continually 'avoids' reprinting?
Hamtastic has interviewed WoTC staff. So I don't see why they would be lying to him.
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I'm not sure I follow your logic on this, please help me out where I'm missing your point.
WotC knows the secondary market exists (I said as much in the post you quoted). They know that cards have value. However, their official stance and policy is that cards are worth whatever they're worth, and a pack is worth 3.99 (MSRP) and products are worth whatever it is their worth, MSRP. Again, this is just their official policy. I'm not naive enough to think that they can't or don't utilize the structure they have in place to make money. That would be foolish the extreme. But there's a large difference between WotC saying "Baneslayer is worth 39.99 and that's what you can buy her for at the store" vs "Here's a card that completely dominates the Standard format."
The former is being in the secondary market, the latter is acknowledging the secondary market.
Flash back to Damnation. The format it was released into was lacking a black sweeper of any kind. It had all the other tools in it to be dominating force in Standard but it was missing a sweeper... lo and behold, Damnation was printed. And, amazingly, it was a high cost rare. WotC isn't stupid, they know full well that some cards are going to be very good in the format, and will become chase rares. That means that they will be expensive, but they will only get as high or as low as what the market deems them to be worth. They even go so far as to not acknowledge that certain packs are worth more or less on MTGO, just to avoid the implication that they are supporting one format more than another with 'more valuable' prizes.
I'm hoping that clarified my position about "They acknowledge it exists but they don't do anything based on it". They know Baneslayer is expensive, and they know why, but they didn't set her price. We did, as we fought for the available copies.
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If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
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They could reprint the goblin piledriver but they wont. I digress.
The color pie is a unique deal. White has it abilities and all colors do. Green rarely has fliers but has reachers and red has no fliers but dragons. Who ever heard of a flying goblin sept the ballon brigade and the goblin glider?
I dooooooo
Goblin Skycutter, Hurly-Burly, Scourge of Kher Ridges
Edit: I'd also like to note the lack of planeshift cookyness
More good finds, thanks.