I think the best solution for mods is to tell zesty and little birdy to make those puzzles in speculation, an already full of spam section, and when the puzzles are solved they can create a new thread in rumor mill. Doing that mods ensure rumor mill quality and the fun of members enjoying puzzles. It is also the most easy solution, better than creating a new sub forum that will be useful 4 times a year. I think something should be done really.
Interesting idea, but....
1. The puzzles do not belong in speculation because they have concrete information, usually a full card.
2. Someone posts something not that coherent in Speculation. Is it a puzzle? Is it not-that-coherent speculation? Or something else?
3. If you believe that Speculation tends to be spammy and puzzle threads tend to be spammy, it wouldn't be fair to the Speculation people to make their forum even more spammy.
4. Once the puzzle is solved, why would the mods put a new thread in Rumor Mill. It clearly would belong in NCD.
4. Once the puzzle is solved, why would the mods put a new thread in Rumor Mill. It clearly would belong in NCD.
If it wasn't a puzzle, and mods just posted what the card did, why would the mods put a new thread in Rumor Mill then? There is a reason newly spoiled cards don't go straight to NCD.
If it wasn't a puzzle, and mods just posted what the card did, why would the mods put a new thread in Rumor Mill then? There is a reason newly spoiled cards don't go straight to NCD.
A new thread in rumor mill is reserved for newly spoiled information. You shouldn't see a new thread for a solved puzzle for the same reason you don't see a new thread when someone spoils a new card on page 17 of an existing thread.
Anyway, here's my compromise proposal.
1. Add a "Do you like puzzles?" flag to user options, turned on by default.
2. All puzzle threads (in main RM) are marked as such by creators or the first mod who sees it.
3. Puzzle threads are invisible to those who have unchecked the puzzle user option.
4. Once puzzle is solved, 2 new threads are created. First is a locked thread in main RM with card info. Second is discussion thread in NCD.
I'm not really into the puzzles myself, since I prefer thinking about uses for the cards instead of puzzling to get them.
I do understand why some people like them though. Still, it frustrates me when I want to check out some new spoilers and I have to spend time solving a puzzle to get any info.
No offense to our rumor pros (zesty), I appreciate the rumoring in any form.
This is just an expression of my preferences.
I'm not really into the puzzles myself, since I prefer thinking about uses for the cards instead of puzzling to get them.
I do understand why some people like them though. Still, it frustrates me when I want to check out some new spoilers and I have to spend time solving a puzzle to get any info.
No offense to our rumor pros (zesty), I appreciate the rumoring in any form.
This is just an expression of my preferences.
Those Who Spoil don't spoil cards as they get them. They spread them out.
So, would you rather have.
Card X spoiled January 10.
or
Puzzle for Card X posted January 8, solved in 2 days.
I fail to see the difference for those who just want the cards, as long as a mod or the poster updated the first post when the puzzle is solved.
(Of course, most puzzles are solved within hours or even minutes.)
Those Who Spoil don't spoil cards as they get them. They spread them out.
So, would you rather have.
Card X spoiled January 10.
or
Puzzle for Card X posted January 8, solved in 2 days.
I fail to see the difference for those who just want the cards, as long as a mod or the poster updated the first post when the puzzle is solved.
(Of course, most puzzles are solved within hours or even minutes.)
I choose card x spoiled on January 8.
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hey i have managed to evolve my axolotls by feeding them thyroid glands the thyroxine contained in these gland is enough to change these water dwelling creatures into land based creatures
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
I am a very lazy user. I come to the Rumor Mill to read, not to post (and haven't even created an account before today). I don't like sifting through half a dozen pages of guessing or "omg good card!" posts to find the actual information. That being said, I really appreciate the existence of puzzles and if it was up to me I would let them stay.
People are suggesting that puzzles be posted to special threads, with duplicates once they're solved. Other people counter that this would cause more unpleasant traffic in the forums. What if, then, the special puzzle threads were not posted in the forums?
I am not very familiar with how this site works, but it seems to me that the Blog feature would be a perfect way to dispense puzzle information. People who are interested in the puzzles would watch Zesty/Birdy's personal blog and try to speculate/solve there. When the correct answer is reached, Zesty/Birdy confirms it by making a straightforward, puzzle-free post in the Mill. (Maybe the post could include a link to the blog so that people who miss the puzzles know where to look.)
I am a very lazy user. I come to the Rumor Mill to read, not to post (and haven't even created an account before today). I don't like sifting through half a dozen pages of guessing or "omg good card!" posts to find the actual information. That being said, I really appreciate the existence of puzzles and if it was up to me I would let them stay.
People are suggesting that puzzles be posted to special threads, with duplicates once they're solved. Other people counter that this would cause more unpleasant traffic in the forums. What if, then, the special puzzle threads were not posted in the forums?
I am not very familiar with how this site works, but it seems to me that the Blog feature would be a perfect way to dispense puzzle information. People who are interested in the puzzles would watch Zesty/Birdy's personal blog and try to speculate/solve there. When the correct answer is reached, Zesty/Birdy confirms it by making a straightforward, puzzle-free post in the Mill. (Maybe the post could include a link to the blog so that people who miss the puzzles know where to look.)
This is a really good idea.
The puzzle information is still readily available, people can comment in the blog comments, and when everything is said and done and it's time to post the fully spoiled card, it can be done without all the mess and speculation.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
First off, Spoilers aren't for everyone; and everyone who finds their way to the Rumor Mill aren't necessarily looking for cards spoiled from the latest set. Other information gets posted in the Rumor Mill.
As far as the puzzles go, joe_nascar's idea is great. Blog the puzzles/riddles for those who want to spend time dissecting all the information for fun. For some who come to the Rumor Mill, they want the information given to them as it's supposed to be. The worst part about the puzzles/riddles is when a card gets partially discovered, then a whole bunch of people start speculating on things that aren't even right. Once the blogged information has been "uncovered", make an update to the Unofficial Spoiler page... this way people who want the cards will just go and read what's available, while those who enjoy puzzles/riddles will get all the fun and games they wish.
The Rumor Mill is all about rumors, but correct rumors. A really obvious saying is "Garbage in, garbage out." This is definitely one of those places where you need to be careful about how to disseminate information to the public. Especially undisclosed information. Most information brought forth in the Rumor Mill is considered spam a lot of times because it isn't clear or decisive enough, so gets pushed into the Speculation.
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"In response to your Brainstorm, I use Vedalken Orrery to play Chains of Mephistopheles as an instant."
-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
Allow me to disagree on some points:
1. Until the puzzle is solved many people post their theory and how they think the card will do, look the first 3 pages of the thread about the 2 lands posted 2 days ago, it is full of speculation about the cards, that clearly doesnt belong in rumor mill, it belongs to speculation forum.
There is some speculation, but there is also lots of actual discussion on the puzzle itself. If the mods want to infract more aggressively there, I wouldn't disagree with that.
Though speculation about the puzzle itself is appropriate.
2. Speculation is spammy unfortunately but we cant let rumor mill turn spammy too. Also speculation is just a sub-forum, less people talk there, moving puzzles there will make that sub-forum better and more live that before. It will actually benefit from it.
Speculation has by far the most threads than any of the other RM forums, though RM proper does have many more posts.
3. Dont forget that the information zesty-birdy provide us are rumors. The complete cards from the puzzles belong in rumor mill and not in new card discussion.
They are reliable enough that they're not just rumors. By your standard, NCD would be almost empty as it would only include officially spoiled cards.
I think the puzzles are little pointless, but if people enjoy wasting their time to learn what rare they'll be groaning over when they pull it out of a pack, who's to stop them?
I like interesting/rare cards in puzzle form. All the cards will be spoiler in due course anyway and waiting an extra day for people to work out a card isn't a lot to ask is it? And it is great fun for those mentally capable/patient enough to have a go at them.
I agree. The amount of discussion over the simple decision of team zesty to spoil cards normally or with puzzles is ridiculous.
Before proposing anything, you all need to keep in mind that the Rumor Mill gets the most views and traffic out of any of the areas of this site.
Not NCD, not Speculation, not blogs.
This circuitous conversation is going to result in one of two ways, it seems:
1) No more puzzles, they are not being solved in due time, people are just posting to say 'I hope someone else solves it', etc
2) Puzzles are allowed but they need to be tightened up quite a bit in how they are done and presented, so cards don't fall by the wayside, or stay incomplete.
The above poll is meaningless, as the 'Don't care' option got plenty of votes.
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News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
I agree. The amount of discussion over the simple decision of team zesty to spoil cards normally or with puzzles is ridiculous.
We've had a lot more discussion over a lot less, honestly. And at the very least, people are venting and otherwise voicing their opinions, I don't think that's ridiculous. It's better than what the 'Mill can (at times) be used for, at any rate. *shrug*
I just want to make clear that of course I'm aware that the riddler is the actual hero in this, and the solver is just sharing in the glory. But this is sufficient motivation.
Are you serious? I don't remember any blank face who gets a result or spoils a card or otherwise catches lightning in a bottle unless they remind everyone in their signature. Shouldn't the cards be what gets paid attention anyway?
I don't see what the problem with 18 pages is. This debate is interesting as hell. It's seriously the most interested I've been in anything on MTGS in like two years. If people can debate for hundreds of pages over other dumb crap in the mill like whether Hunted Dragon is going to push red over the top, I don't see why this is so crazy.
Also I think the poll results say enough about puzzles and that we should get rid of them, but obviously the decision is up to the staff. I just can't believe something done for fun and to please members that is only liked by 2/5 members is really worth having around.
Also I think the poll results say enough about puzzles and that we should get rid of them, but obviously the decision is up to the staff. I just can't believe something done for fun and to please members that is only liked by 2/5 members is really worth having around.
The poll still has "Yes" in the lead. How does that point to getting rid of the puzzles? Sure, you can say only 2/5 of members like it, but if that's the slightest bit accurate, then judging by our poll, LESS than 2/5 don't like it, and the other fifth doesn't care.
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A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
The poll still has "Yes" in the lead. How does that point to getting rid of the puzzles? Sure, you can say only 2/5 of members like it, but if that's the slightest bit accurate, then judging by our poll, LESS than 2/5 don't like it, and the other fifth doesn't care.
Because the only reason this is done is specifically for fun and to "please the members". There is no other reason to do puzzles whatsoever. This isn't something that should be decided just looking at who got the majority of the poll. The fact that it clearly aggravates about half of the MTGS population is more than enough reason to get rid of something that has no reason for existing in the first place.
Just compare it to a president. If the president of the United States had a 40% approval rate, I doubt anyone would be calling him a great president that's worth keeping around.
Interesting idea, but....
1. The puzzles do not belong in speculation because they have concrete information, usually a full card.
2. Someone posts something not that coherent in Speculation. Is it a puzzle? Is it not-that-coherent speculation? Or something else?
3. If you believe that Speculation tends to be spammy and puzzle threads tend to be spammy, it wouldn't be fair to the Speculation people to make their forum even more spammy.
4. Once the puzzle is solved, why would the mods put a new thread in Rumor Mill. It clearly would belong in NCD.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
If it wasn't a puzzle, and mods just posted what the card did, why would the mods put a new thread in Rumor Mill then? There is a reason newly spoiled cards don't go straight to NCD.
A new thread in rumor mill is reserved for newly spoiled information. You shouldn't see a new thread for a solved puzzle for the same reason you don't see a new thread when someone spoils a new card on page 17 of an existing thread.
Anyway, here's my compromise proposal.
1. Add a "Do you like puzzles?" flag to user options, turned on by default.
2. All puzzle threads (in main RM) are marked as such by creators or the first mod who sees it.
3. Puzzle threads are invisible to those who have unchecked the puzzle user option.
4. Once puzzle is solved, 2 new threads are created. First is a locked thread in main RM with card info. Second is discussion thread in NCD.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I do understand why some people like them though. Still, it frustrates me when I want to check out some new spoilers and I have to spend time solving a puzzle to get any info.
No offense to our rumor pros (zesty), I appreciate the rumoring in any form.
This is just an expression of my preferences.
Those Who Spoil don't spoil cards as they get them. They spread them out.
So, would you rather have.
Card X spoiled January 10.
or
Puzzle for Card X posted January 8, solved in 2 days.
I fail to see the difference for those who just want the cards, as long as a mod or the poster updated the first post when the puzzle is solved.
(Of course, most puzzles are solved within hours or even minutes.)
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Exactly. It is almost as if the post read "New Conflux card - placeholder post - will be spoiled in 2 hours"
I choose card x spoiled on January 8.
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
------------------------------------------
[Team Revolution]
People are suggesting that puzzles be posted to special threads, with duplicates once they're solved. Other people counter that this would cause more unpleasant traffic in the forums. What if, then, the special puzzle threads were not posted in the forums?
I am not very familiar with how this site works, but it seems to me that the Blog feature would be a perfect way to dispense puzzle information. People who are interested in the puzzles would watch Zesty/Birdy's personal blog and try to speculate/solve there. When the correct answer is reached, Zesty/Birdy confirms it by making a straightforward, puzzle-free post in the Mill. (Maybe the post could include a link to the blog so that people who miss the puzzles know where to look.)
This is a really good idea.
The puzzle information is still readily available, people can comment in the blog comments, and when everything is said and done and it's time to post the fully spoiled card, it can be done without all the mess and speculation.
Near the end of last season, zesty gave at least a dozen or so forum members (including myself) 1 or more cards to spoil using puzzles.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Sometimes the mods do it, or sometimes they don't bother, and post it straight into the spoiler.
Either way though, the card, in it's true form, is easily found without needing to sift through a million posts.
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Alters for sale
First off, Spoilers aren't for everyone; and everyone who finds their way to the Rumor Mill aren't necessarily looking for cards spoiled from the latest set. Other information gets posted in the Rumor Mill.
As far as the puzzles go, joe_nascar's idea is great. Blog the puzzles/riddles for those who want to spend time dissecting all the information for fun. For some who come to the Rumor Mill, they want the information given to them as it's supposed to be. The worst part about the puzzles/riddles is when a card gets partially discovered, then a whole bunch of people start speculating on things that aren't even right. Once the blogged information has been "uncovered", make an update to the Unofficial Spoiler page... this way people who want the cards will just go and read what's available, while those who enjoy puzzles/riddles will get all the fun and games they wish.
The Rumor Mill is all about rumors, but correct rumors. A really obvious saying is "Garbage in, garbage out." This is definitely one of those places where you need to be careful about how to disseminate information to the public. Especially undisclosed information. Most information brought forth in the Rumor Mill is considered spam a lot of times because it isn't clear or decisive enough, so gets pushed into the Speculation.
-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
They could always just post a link to those persons' blog posts in their own blogs...
Thanks to Fogatog of Epic for the awesome avatar and spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios for the amazing banner.
There is some speculation, but there is also lots of actual discussion on the puzzle itself. If the mods want to infract more aggressively there, I wouldn't disagree with that.
Though speculation about the puzzle itself is appropriate.
Forum Threads Posts
NCD 3,420 87,040
Spec 4,021 107,719
RM 2,650 217,388
Speculation has by far the most threads than any of the other RM forums, though RM proper does have many more posts.
They are reliable enough that they're not just rumors. By your standard, NCD would be almost empty as it would only include officially spoiled cards.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I think the puzzles are little pointless, but if people enjoy wasting their time to learn what rare they'll be groaning over when they pull it out of a pack, who's to stop them?
Trading
I agree. The amount of discussion over the simple decision of team zesty to spoil cards normally or with puzzles is ridiculous.
Before proposing anything, you all need to keep in mind that the Rumor Mill gets the most views and traffic out of any of the areas of this site.
Not NCD, not Speculation, not blogs.
This circuitous conversation is going to result in one of two ways, it seems:
1) No more puzzles, they are not being solved in due time, people are just posting to say 'I hope someone else solves it', etc
2) Puzzles are allowed but they need to be tightened up quite a bit in how they are done and presented, so cards don't fall by the wayside, or stay incomplete.
The above poll is meaningless, as the 'Don't care' option got plenty of votes.
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Like arguing over the colour of wrapping paper used by Santa Claus?
We've had a lot more discussion over a lot less, honestly. And at the very least, people are venting and otherwise voicing their opinions, I don't think that's ridiculous. It's better than what the 'Mill can (at times) be used for, at any rate. *shrug*
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Are you serious? I don't remember any blank face who gets a result or spoils a card or otherwise catches lightning in a bottle unless they remind everyone in their signature. Shouldn't the cards be what gets paid attention anyway?
Also I think the poll results say enough about puzzles and that we should get rid of them, but obviously the decision is up to the staff. I just can't believe something done for fun and to please members that is only liked by 2/5 members is really worth having around.
The poll still has "Yes" in the lead. How does that point to getting rid of the puzzles? Sure, you can say only 2/5 of members like it, but if that's the slightest bit accurate, then judging by our poll, LESS than 2/5 don't like it, and the other fifth doesn't care.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
Because the only reason this is done is specifically for fun and to "please the members". There is no other reason to do puzzles whatsoever. This isn't something that should be decided just looking at who got the majority of the poll. The fact that it clearly aggravates about half of the MTGS population is more than enough reason to get rid of something that has no reason for existing in the first place.
Just compare it to a president. If the president of the United States had a 40% approval rate, I doubt anyone would be calling him a great president that's worth keeping around.