i think this card is Freakin' awesome just imagine zoo with this even on the draw u flex "Nutz" any mana drawing the extra card u can pitch and turning up the gas on tempo and it still taps for mana easily a 3 of most likely a 4 of
as I understand it the Rumor Mill is for cards that have yet to be officially printed and released to the public (hence they are rumors still) meanwhile the "New Card Discussion" sub forum of the Rumor Mill is for discussing cards that have seen print and are officially released to the public.
As I understand it, the original intent was for this forum to be for discussion of rumors and whether they were real or not and the New Card Discussion forum was for discussion of the cards themselves. Nowadays, of course, we know immediately that 95% of the stuff posted here is real, just based on the source. As a result, both this forum and New Card are used to discuss the cards themselves, meaning multiple threads for the same card.
I don't like the idea of locking the forum down, because there is the occasional rumor for which it is uncertain whether it is real or not (and discussion helps resolve this).
I don't like the idea of locking the forum down, because there is the occasional rumor for which it is uncertain whether it is real or not (and discussion helps resolve this).
Hypothetically, such discussion would still occur amongst those in charge of the Rumor Mill. The Mill could have its own mod subforum (like other major forums on Salvation already do) where they can share information that was forwarded to them. And instead of uncertain information getting locked publicly until new information provides clarity as things go now, instead the information would remain private until new tips prove it one way or the other. I would imagine that 'Mill staff get tips often as it is but they sit on it until other info seals the deal.
Or, if the staff can't come to a conclusion and want the forum's thoughts, the vague information could be posted for discussion and then locked when the discussion has served its purpose. The odds of that being required more than a few times each season are rather low.
I personnally loved how hydro adn co used to spoil cards witht he stories.. made rumor season fun, and as I ussually dont have time to solve them I wait, but post being updated would rock lots. Also ever try making some stories??
"Crovax Connections" does sound like a friendly corner store run by your local Ascendant Lord
I bet we have a case of Jon Finkel sleeping with the girl, then never calling her again and she going bat #%^% crazy and writing this article case closed.
First PTQ top 8 6/13/09(1st) Second PTQ top 8 10/7/09(5th) Second at national Qualifier 5/15/10
Third PTQ top 8 2/12/11 (2nd)
Second at Alberta 2011's
Fourth PTQ top 8 3/17/12(8th)
GP Vancouver 2012 (18th)
Hypothetically, such discussion would still occur amongst those in charge of the Rumor Mill. The Mill could have its own mod subforum (like other major forums on Salvation already do) where they can share information that was forwarded to them. And instead of uncertain information getting locked publicly until new information provides clarity as things go now, instead the information would remain private until new tips prove it one way or the other. I would imagine that 'Mill staff get tips often as it is but they sit on it until other info seals the deal.
Or, if the staff can't come to a conclusion and want the forum's thoughts, the vague information could be posted for discussion and then locked when the discussion has served its purpose. The odds of that being required more than a few times each season are rather low.
More eyes are better than fewer eyes, though. I can remember multiple times in the past when the mods didn't know whether a card was real or not until some community member found the smoking gun which proved it wasn't.
Also, if you were a faker, which if these two scenarios would you prefer?
A
1. You post your fake to the main Rumor Mill.
2. People discuss it, coming up with 17 reasons it's a fake.
3. Thread gets locked or dies a natural death.
B.
1. Main Mill is locked, so you post your fake in General or somewhere else.
2. Several people see it before mods move it to PRIVATE_MOD_ROOM and determine it's fake.
3. Speculation abounds that it's real and was pulled at request of WoTC.
More eyes are better than fewer eyes, though. I can remember multiple times in the past when the mods didn't know whether a card was real or not until some community member found the smoking gun which proved it wasn't.
And if those tasked with ascertaining the veracity of submitted rumors can't figure it out, it's at their discretion to bring it public for more eyes to help.
Also, if you were a faker, which if these two scenarios would you prefer?
Whichever brought me the most attention.
A
1. You post your fake to the main Rumor Mill.
2. People discuss it, coming up with 17 reasons it's a fake.
3. Thread gets locked or dies a natural death.
So, the faker gets attention?
B.
1. Main Mill is locked, so you post your fake in General or somewhere else.
2. Several people see it before mods move it to PRIVATE_MOD_ROOM and determine it's fake.
3. Speculation abounds that it's real and was pulled at request of WoTC.
Posting a fake elsewhere gets a faker nowhere since no one will fall for it. And I'm not so sure your fear of speculating about WotC intervention is completely founded.
Hypothetically, such discussion would still occur amongst those in charge of the Rumor Mill. The Mill could have its own mod subforum (like other major forums on Salvation already do) where they can share information that was forwarded to them. And instead of uncertain information getting locked publicly until new information provides clarity as things go now, instead the information would remain private until new tips prove it one way or the other.
Wow. I would have to stop visiting the Rumor Mill if this ever happened. Are you serious? Part of the fun of spoiler season is debating the new info as it comes in, and for me at least, solving puzzles *as a group* with the great reward of a fresh spoiled card for our efforts. The incomplete information that sometimes appears just has me refreshing more to see if anyone else can fill in the gaps. The Mill already keeps a neat and organized partial spoiler list. If all you want is the accurate card information and no clutter or discussion, why are you looking in the RM threads anyway? It would be super disappointing to regulate out all the excitement, and just move it to a private Mod thread.
I originally voted that I was in favor of the puzzles, because they are somewhat entertaining.
After reading some responses to this thread, I'm inclined to go the other way. I reminded of the stories of rumor seasons past; the ones with the "mysterious blond". Sure, they were an entertaining read, until you got to the comments afterwards, where many people were discussing the story instead of the card. And then the fakers began to use them.
I'm not sure that there's much to be done. Threads in the 'Mill move very fast and users race to post what they think as fast as they can. Most don't think, don't pay attention or just plainly don't make sense. Aside from a major crackdown from the mods (and that's a titanic undertaking), that's not going to change. I can't even be sure it would even with harsher moderation.
I'm surprised posts like "I like it" or "It looks good" aren't considered spam. Those are the kind I see most often, and ever since I've lurked here. Even a major crackdown couldn't get rid of them. Consider these two lines:
"It looks good."
"It looks good. I might buy some."
I don't see a difference between the two, other than Line 2 spent five seconds more with typing, and basically said nothing. We know that they might buy some of the card, because they just said it looks good. Yet, I could see Line 2 not being considered spam unless the moderation was very strict.
For my money, the most efficient way of calming the Rumor Mill down would be to lock it down entirely. Only threads allowed would be locked threads containing pertinent information. Information would be forwarded to Rumor Mill mods (along with perhaps viable Globals and/or pseudo-mods like iRebel in Standard if the volume proves too great) for consideration and/or posting. New threads not going through the proper channels would be locked and dealt with appropriately. (I derived the idea from LJ comms that use submissions like this to control what gets posted to the comm, anyone know if a similar system can be implemented with our forum software? It would eliminate the worry of unapproved new threads being created in this hypothetical 'Mill) Discussion of confirmed cards/mechanics would go in NCD and speculation on unconfirmed or vague information would go in Speculation. That way the 'Mill is used solely as a reporting zone for information, the staff would have greater control over discussions, fakers could be weeded out long before they bother the public, and discussion would be relegated to its proper areas. The workload for the mods increases, but the benefit is greater order ... at least in theory.
I'm in favor of this. I could see a person with a legitimate card finding it a little off-putting to go through the mods first. Or maybe the mods weed out a tip they thought was fake, but turned out to be true. But, on a whole, those are minor drawbacks, considering what's gained.
Alright I have a lot of crap to respond to. My main thing is I want people to know I'm not complaining because it's some personal inconvenience (although it is, that isn't the actual reason). People saying "well just scroll down two pages you don't have to read the puzzles" are missing the point here. These puzzles are making this forum degenerate into a glorified puzzles and games forum where it seems like rumor threads have more discussion about puzzles than the card itself.
I understand that them giving us cards is a privilege, and that complaining about how they do it is nitpicky in a way. I'm just thinking of what is best for the site here. Even if they aren't obligated to give us information, we should be thinking about ways to make rumor season flow more smoothly and trying to clean up a forum that can be a massive headache to read.
Basically, nobody can convince me that these puzzles are necessary in any way. The only argument supporting them seems to be that "they're fun" and "people enjoy doing them." To me, the rumor mill was fun when we would get the card and be able to discuss it and think of possible ideas with it, as well as sharing our quick-fire thoughts on it right away. Watching a bunch of idiots working together to solve a cryptogram isn't fun for anyone but the people doing it, and is actively hurting this forum.
If you want to have fun solving puzzles and playing games, go to forum games. They'd be glad to have the traffic. The RUMOR mill should be for rumors, not puzzle solving.
I don't think the issue is "people don't like seeing riddles" anymore, as the solutions have already been pretty thoroughly discussed; even a simple bit of thread editing from the OP pointing to the post that solved the riddle and big bold text that says DONT POST ABOUT THE RIDDLE ANYMORE can be a simple, easy, moderator-less way of handling the issue. To be honest I'm baffled that people are still arguing that point.
What concerns me more is this elitist view that the forum needs to keep an "image". What purpose does a professional image serve? I think you're trying to fix a headache by cutting off the head here. I don't come here just for the spoilers (otherwise I wouldn't be posting this right now), I come here because I love the discussion that comes from the cards--even the pointless, opinionated, or otherwise ill-informed posts that I wouldn't take with more than a half a grain of salt. You say that these riddles encourage this kind of posting, how can you say that for certain? Wouldn't ignorant and trollish posters post ignorant and trollish things anyway?
Well anyway, I'm sure somebody far more eloquent than I can do a better job of addressing the issue, but I would just like to state my concern for this talk about "locking down" the rumor mill... As many have pointed out before, its trading lots of valuable benefits (having 17 eyes checking validity instead of 7) for what? A clean image? Whatever.
Wow. I would have to stop visiting the Rumor Mill if this ever happened.
And some have stopped visiting because of the way it is now. Go figure.
Are you serious? Part of the fun of spoiler season is debating the new info as it comes in, and for me at least, solving puzzles *as a group* with the great reward of a fresh spoiled card for our efforts.
What I'm proposing would bring the 'Mill back more to the way it was many years ago when tipsters sent information to the mods who would then post it for discussion and speculation. Remember that? It was organized, exciting and great for everybody. Now that we have dedicated subforums for both discussion and speculation, the Rumor Mill itself ought to be just for information, not random guessing games and craziness.
Keep in mind that speculation and discussion would continue just as it does now, only maintained in the forums that were made for it.
If all you want is the accurate card information and no clutter or discussion, why are you looking in the RM threads anyway?
Because the Rumor Mill is supposed to be the hub of new information. New Cards Discussion is supposed to be the place for (get this) discussing the new cards. The Mill shouldn't be cluttered, it should be presenting new information in a clear, straightforward manner.
It would be super disappointing to regulate out all the excitement, and just move it to a private Mod thread.
I somehow doubt removing the messy elements and leaving all the spoilage, discussion and speculation would dull the excitement. I mean, isn't the excitement in getting new spoilers themselves?
I'm surprised posts like "I like it" or "It looks good" aren't considered spam. Those are the kind I see most often, and ever since I've lurked here. Even a major crackdown couldn't get rid of them. Consider these two lines:
"It looks good."
"It looks good. I might buy some."
I don't see a difference between the two, other than Line 2 spent five seconds more with typing, and basically said nothing. We know that they might buy some of the card, because they just said it looks good. Yet, I could see Line 2 not being considered spam unless the moderation was very strict.
I'll let you in on a secret: to me, both of those are spam. You guys ever wonder why I don't moderate in the 'Mill all that often? It's because I'd end up raising holy hell deleting/warning/infracting 80% of what I see. It's also why my participation in the 'Mill has declined since becoming a Global, I feel compelled to start swinging, so to speak.
The staff in the Rumor Mill have probably the roughest job on the site in terms of moderating specific areas (though the Marketplace staff doesn't exactly have it easy, either), and they have my unceasing respect as a result. I don't know if I could maintain my preferred level of strictness for long here, I'd just plain burn out. Being a bit more lenient is likely the only way mods like seds and RE have managed to cling to their sanity after all these years.
I'm in favor of this. I could see a person with a legitimate card finding it a little off-putting to go through the mods first. Or maybe the mods weed out a tip they thought was fake, but turned out to be true. But, on a whole, those are minor drawbacks, considering what's gained.
Again, I remember back when all but the ballsiest tipsters operated through the mods, so perhaps I just assume that they still would. And as for weeding out solid tips as fake, I admit that it could happen. But out RM team have an incredible track record and I think their experience makes them sharp enough to as a whole rarely write off real stuff as fake. That becomes even less an issue if particularly experienced members (think Hunter or Caranthir & charlequin prior to their modship) are recruited in much the same way as iRebel in Standard or Magik & Memnarch in Marketplace - limited mod powers and responsibility but capable of assisting the staff as necessary.
What concerns me more is this elitist view that the forum needs to keep an "image". What purpose does a professional image serve?
Oh give me a break. Again, I'm not saying we need to be like The New York Times or something. But for God's sake, this is the biggest MTG rumor site there is, and we should at least be making an effort to make the rumor mill not look like a place where a bunch of random people try to solve puzzles. The rumor mill is part of what attracts people to this site, and it's not really elitist to say that having a ton of people running around solving puzzles could be detracting people from joining the site.
As to your other point, the rumor mill was great for a long time without goofy puzzles in each post. While it's always going to have faults like you mention, the problem right now is unequivocally worse than it was before in my opinion.
I don't think the issue is "people don't like seeing riddles" anymore, as the solutions have already been pretty thoroughly discussed; even a simple bit of thread editing from the OP pointing to the post that solved the riddle and big bold text that says DONT POST ABOUT THE RIDDLE ANYMORE can be a simple, easy, moderator-less way of handling the issue. To be honest I'm baffled that people are still arguing that point.
What concerns me more is this elitist view that the forum needs to keep an "image". What purpose does a professional image serve? I think you're trying to fix a headache by cutting off the head here. I don't come here just for the spoilers (otherwise I wouldn't be posting this right now), I come here because I love the discussion that comes from the cards--even the pointless, opinionated, or otherwise ill-informed posts that I wouldn't take with more than a half a grain of salt. You say that these riddles encourage this kind of posting, how can you say that for certain? Wouldn't ignorant and trollish posters post ignorant and trollish things anyway?
Well anyway, I'm sure somebody far more eloquent than I can do a better job of addressing the issue, but I would just like to state my concern for this talk about "locking down" the rumor mill... As many have pointed out before, its trading lots of valuable benefits (having 17 eyes checking validity instead of 7) for what? A clean image? Whatever.
Here, here. Nice post. The rumor mill is full of spam and ineffectual posts, and no reasonable changes will change that. The only thing the mods can do is moderate. There is no need for major changes, we just need to make sure the status of topics (solved/confirmed etc) is kept clear.
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News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
Because the Rumor Mill is supposed to be the hub of new information. New Cards Discussion is supposed to be the place for (get this) discussing the new cards. The Mill shouldn't be cluttered, it should be presenting new information in a clear, straightforward manner.
But it does just that. If you just want new information in a clear straightforward manner, just read the Partial Spoiler and Compiled Info threads. What does your idea offer that those well-organized threads don't?
I don't think the issue is "people don't like seeing riddles" anymore, as the solutions have already been pretty thoroughly discussed; even a simple bit of thread editing from the OP pointing to the post that solved the riddle and big bold text that says DONT POST ABOUT THE RIDDLE ANYMORE can be a simple, easy, moderator-less way of handling the issue. To be honest I'm baffled that people are still arguing that point.
Of course, that's also unenforceable without the mods cleaning up the threads afterward, so no, it's not a moderator-less solution.
*shrug*
What concerns me more is this elitist view that the forum needs to keep an "image". What purpose does a professional image serve?
It serves to make this site better than a bunch of kids spouting off ransom crap, basically. The site's image matters to the community. I doubt many here would want to be part of a site that's known for being the armpit of the internet. I'd rather be a part of a community that values quality, but maybe I'm just wacky that way.
You say that these riddles encourage this kind of posting, how can you say that for certain?
Because those who have been watching have noticed a dramatic increase in posts that are essentially worthless as a result of trying to solve or otherwise discuss these riddles. It's just common sense. If a thread has 100 posts before any information is gleaned from the riddle, it's got about 100 more useless spammy posts than a thread which just posts the information outright.
Wouldn't ignorant and trollish posters post ignorant and trollish things anyway?
Perhaps, but these riddles are encouraging bad posts from members who probably wouldn't have done so otherwise. Also, the volume of terrible posts is important to keep in mind when thinking of the workload for the staff in here.
Well anyway, I'm sure somebody far more eloquent than I can do a better job of addressing the issue, but I would just like to state my concern for this talk about "locking down" the rumor mill... As many have pointed out before, its trading lots of valuable benefits (having 17 eyes checking validity instead of 7) for what? A clean image? Whatever.
A clean image, increased order and perhaps encouragement for members to post better. And what exactly are the lots of benefits we'd hypothetically be trading off? Having 500 sets of eyes now instead of 10 in the proposition? Sorry to be blunt, but of those 500 sets of eyes, 15 might actually have something of worth to contribute (and 10 of those 15 would still be analyzing under my proposition). The rest aren't contributing much of anything (except to their postcounts) most of the time. I'm sorry ... but they're just not.
It just seems to me that too many people are willing to "put up" with the puzzles or write off the problem by saying we can ignore them. Nobody has provided me an actual reason for why these puzzles should exist other than that they're fun and people like them, which could pertain to anything done in the forum games forum.
On the other side of the coin, many people have pointed out possible problems the puzzles have. I just don't see any benefit to keeping them when they clearly aggravate a sizable portion of the community and don't really make much of a difference to people who do like them.
I like the puzzles, but I don't like the ones that are just a stack of numbers. The puzzles for nicol bolas were my favourite, I understood what to do with it.
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With all, put the same thing except with / in front of what type of tags they are (like [/card]) to close them.
Card: [card]
Hybrid: :symub: = order doesn't matter
If all you want is the accurate card information and no clutter or discussion, why are you looking in the RM threads anyway? It would be super disappointing to regulate out all the excitement, and just move it to a private Mod thread.
Except what most people who are saying "nay" to the puzzles are complaining for, is that they want the discussion. They just don't want to have to weed through 5 to 20 pages worth of puzzle solving to get to that discussion, and sometimes not get to that discussion at all (as was the case with the Nicol Bolas card).
Personally I am all for the option of locking down the Rumor Mill, and leaving the speculation and discussion for their respective sub forums. So I would like to ask that this be implemented if possible.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
But it does just that. If you just want new information in a clear straightforward manner, just read the Partial Spoiler and Compiled Info threads.
So, then, what does the Rumor Mill offer now that can't be covered by either NCD or Spec?
What does your idea offer that those well-organized threads don't?
Nothing major, essentially, but it wasn't supposed to. It's intended to be a reorganization to reduce the amount of spam and streamline that section of the forums. What my idea offers isn't on the spoiling end, it's on the overall order of the 'Mill and it's children forums.
A reason to have some Puzzles for the HIGH DEMANDED cards:
Doesnt spoil them so quickly and allows for little speculation.
THe problem.. EVERYTHING down to the crap common has a puzzle that takes a awhile to figure out it turns people off the Puzzles to a point where they just want the card.
What started out as cute has become poison.
They are now becoming Spam Bombs, clusters of ignorance *people who ignore the true answer cause they WANT to be right*, a TON of Post++ery.
So, then, what does the Rumor Mill offer now that can't be covered by either NCD or Spec?
Discussion of the rumors themselves.
There's also a bit of a difference between discussion of cards in Rumor Mill proper and NCD. In RM you see more of initial reactions (both of the "i like this card" spam and stuff like "i think this card will work great in deck X"). In NCD, you tend to see more detailed and though out posts, after people have actually though about the card for a few days.
Nothing major, essentially, but it wasn't supposed to. It's intended to be a reorganization to reduce the amount of spam and streamline that section of the forums. What my idea offers isn't on the spoiling end, it's on the overall order of the 'Mill and it's children forums.
But 2-3 topical threads seems more streamlined than a thread per card.
Of course, that's also unenforceable without the mods cleaning up the threads afterward, so no, it's not a moderator-less solution.
But the fact it's unenforceable is only a valid point if the poster is not doing it. Since there is an interest from the sources' side in keeping things clean, I would assume they would be willing to comply.
It serves to make this site better than a bunch of kids spouting off ransom crap, basically. The site's image matters to the community. I doubt many here would want to be part of a site that's known for being the armpit of the internet. I'd rather be a part of a community that values quality, but maybe I'm just wacky that way.
You think you can fight the direction the community is going? I've been a member of some pretty large communities, start to, well in some cases, finish, and fighting the natural social evolution of the community has invariably ended with an unpleasant outcome. In case you haven't guessed, that direction is usually: smaller, organized, and concise --> larger, more difficult to moderate, more random crap.
Because those who have been watching have noticed a dramatic increase in posts that are essentially worthless as a result of trying to solve or otherwise discuss these riddles. It's just common sense. If a thread has 100 posts before any information is gleaned from the riddle, it's got about 100 more useless spammy posts than a thread which just posts the information outright.
But you're saying that the simple fact that there are riddles would encourage this behavior, and that even cleaning up the process would not mitigate it. How can you be so certain of that?
Perhaps, but these riddles are encouraging bad posts from members who probably wouldn't have done so otherwise. Also, the volume of terrible posts is important to keep in mind when thinking of the workload for the staff in here.
So you're now talking about "terrible posts" and not "spam"? Its one thing to moderate what obviously counts as spam out of the interest of keeping the forums clean. It's another thing to moderate if you feel what somebody posted is not the most intelligible opinion to hold.
A clean image, increased order and perhaps encouragement for members to post better. And what exactly are the lots of benefits we'd hypothetically be trading off? Having 500 sets of eyes now instead of 10 in the proposition? Sorry to be blunt, but of those 500 sets of eyes, 15 might actually have something of worth to contribute (and 10 of those 15 would still be analyzing under my proposition). The rest aren't contributing much of anything (except to their postcounts) most of the time. I'm sorry ... but they're just not.
According to Fnord's point, those 5 people catch more than you are willing to admit:
Quote from fnord »
More eyes are better than fewer eyes, though. I can remember multiple times in the past when the mods didn't know whether a card was real or not until some community member found the smoking gun which proved it wasn't.
To which you said that the information could simply be made public to better ascertain the validity of the information... The problem is, you can't always be certain if something needs that extra scrutiny. With less eyes, if it needs extra scrutiny but the staff feels it checks out, oops, they just made a mistake and posted false information as confirmed. So much for professionalism. Or if it needs extra scrutiny but the staff feels it doesn't check out, oops, there goes that spoler.
Spoilers as puzzles are quite enjoyable, on the condition that the reward is a good card(common, uncommon, rare, mythic, I don't mind but it needs to be good or interesting), filler on the other hand is not worth creating complex puzzles for.
{mikeyG}'s idea of a more streamlined forum using a seperate mod's forum prior to posting rumor's is decent and the new card discussion forum does need more of a purpose(as opposed to being a collection of threads about the latest cards which contain in them a rehash of people's posts in the original rumor thread (and of course the dreaded "___ is the worst set ever" threads)).
Possible a sort of combined approach might be better, allowing rumormongers to check with the mods first but then to post the information in an interesting puzzle format(with the provisio that the thread's first post be updated with the full information after the puzzle is solved(because otherwise if you weren't online when the puzzle was originally posted you might have to look through 8 or more pages of posts before finding the answer)).
Except with the way things stand now, we do not get to that discussion of the rumors themselves for between 2 to 3 (sometimes even 20) pages of discussion. So yeah, that point is completely moot.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
In what way do they need to be discussed? In particular, how would they be discussed that needs to be in the RM and not NCD and/or Spec? If it's concrete information, it can be dealt with in NCD. If it's vague or teasing (say early infor or early leaked images which provide a bit, but nothing but spec fodder) it can be discussed to death in Speculation.
There's also a bit of a difference between discussion of cards in Rumor Mill proper and NCD. In RM you see more of initial reactions (both of the "i like this card" spam and stuff like "i think this card will work great in deck X"). In NCD, you tend to see more detailed and though out posts, after people have actually though about the card for a few days.
Exactly why I think we should keep the good one and ditch the other.
But 2-3 topical threads seems more streamlined than a thread per card.
Rarely would it be a thread per card. Typically, once the cards really start flowing, they come in groups. Organizing the cards and tidbits of info into logical groups for posting ("5 Blue commons", "3 basic green fatties", "4 cards with Exalted", "Ten Hints of what's in the Set", etc) is both easy and helps make everything about the set easier to navigate. The partial spoiler can remain as it is as just the cards sorted, but the threads in the 'Mill can contain further detail (card images and/or hi-res card art, tidbits of info that relate to the card, etc) that aren't strictly needed on the partial spoiler (or which may never actually make it there).
As I understand it, the original intent was for this forum to be for discussion of rumors and whether they were real or not and the New Card Discussion forum was for discussion of the cards themselves. Nowadays, of course, we know immediately that 95% of the stuff posted here is real, just based on the source. As a result, both this forum and New Card are used to discuss the cards themselves, meaning multiple threads for the same card.
I don't like the idea of locking the forum down, because there is the occasional rumor for which it is uncertain whether it is real or not (and discussion helps resolve this).
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Hypothetically, such discussion would still occur amongst those in charge of the Rumor Mill. The Mill could have its own mod subforum (like other major forums on Salvation already do) where they can share information that was forwarded to them. And instead of uncertain information getting locked publicly until new information provides clarity as things go now, instead the information would remain private until new tips prove it one way or the other. I would imagine that 'Mill staff get tips often as it is but they sit on it until other info seals the deal.
Or, if the staff can't come to a conclusion and want the forum's thoughts, the vague information could be posted for discussion and then locked when the discussion has served its purpose. The odds of that being required more than a few times each season are rather low.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
First PTQ top 8 6/13/09(1st)
Second PTQ top 8 10/7/09(5th)
Second at national Qualifier 5/15/10
Third PTQ top 8 2/12/11 (2nd)
Second at Alberta 2011's
Fourth PTQ top 8 3/17/12(8th)
GP Vancouver 2012 (18th)
More eyes are better than fewer eyes, though. I can remember multiple times in the past when the mods didn't know whether a card was real or not until some community member found the smoking gun which proved it wasn't.
Also, if you were a faker, which if these two scenarios would you prefer?
A
1. You post your fake to the main Rumor Mill.
2. People discuss it, coming up with 17 reasons it's a fake.
3. Thread gets locked or dies a natural death.
B.
1. Main Mill is locked, so you post your fake in General or somewhere else.
2. Several people see it before mods move it to PRIVATE_MOD_ROOM and determine it's fake.
3. Speculation abounds that it's real and was pulled at request of WoTC.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
And if those tasked with ascertaining the veracity of submitted rumors can't figure it out, it's at their discretion to bring it public for more eyes to help.
Whichever brought me the most attention.
So, the faker gets attention?
Posting a fake elsewhere gets a faker nowhere since no one will fall for it. And I'm not so sure your fear of speculating about WotC intervention is completely founded.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Wow. I would have to stop visiting the Rumor Mill if this ever happened. Are you serious? Part of the fun of spoiler season is debating the new info as it comes in, and for me at least, solving puzzles *as a group* with the great reward of a fresh spoiled card for our efforts. The incomplete information that sometimes appears just has me refreshing more to see if anyone else can fill in the gaps. The Mill already keeps a neat and organized partial spoiler list. If all you want is the accurate card information and no clutter or discussion, why are you looking in the RM threads anyway? It would be super disappointing to regulate out all the excitement, and just move it to a private Mod thread.
After reading some responses to this thread, I'm inclined to go the other way. I reminded of the stories of rumor seasons past; the ones with the "mysterious blond". Sure, they were an entertaining read, until you got to the comments afterwards, where many people were discussing the story instead of the card. And then the fakers began to use them.
I'm surprised posts like "I like it" or "It looks good" aren't considered spam. Those are the kind I see most often, and ever since I've lurked here. Even a major crackdown couldn't get rid of them. Consider these two lines:
"It looks good."
"It looks good. I might buy some."
I don't see a difference between the two, other than Line 2 spent five seconds more with typing, and basically said nothing. We know that they might buy some of the card, because they just said it looks good. Yet, I could see Line 2 not being considered spam unless the moderation was very strict.
I'm in favor of this. I could see a person with a legitimate card finding it a little off-putting to go through the mods first. Or maybe the mods weed out a tip they thought was fake, but turned out to be true. But, on a whole, those are minor drawbacks, considering what's gained.
I understand that them giving us cards is a privilege, and that complaining about how they do it is nitpicky in a way. I'm just thinking of what is best for the site here. Even if they aren't obligated to give us information, we should be thinking about ways to make rumor season flow more smoothly and trying to clean up a forum that can be a massive headache to read.
Basically, nobody can convince me that these puzzles are necessary in any way. The only argument supporting them seems to be that "they're fun" and "people enjoy doing them." To me, the rumor mill was fun when we would get the card and be able to discuss it and think of possible ideas with it, as well as sharing our quick-fire thoughts on it right away. Watching a bunch of idiots working together to solve a cryptogram isn't fun for anyone but the people doing it, and is actively hurting this forum.
If you want to have fun solving puzzles and playing games, go to forum games. They'd be glad to have the traffic. The RUMOR mill should be for rumors, not puzzle solving.
What concerns me more is this elitist view that the forum needs to keep an "image". What purpose does a professional image serve? I think you're trying to fix a headache by cutting off the head here. I don't come here just for the spoilers (otherwise I wouldn't be posting this right now), I come here because I love the discussion that comes from the cards--even the pointless, opinionated, or otherwise ill-informed posts that I wouldn't take with more than a half a grain of salt. You say that these riddles encourage this kind of posting, how can you say that for certain? Wouldn't ignorant and trollish posters post ignorant and trollish things anyway?
Well anyway, I'm sure somebody far more eloquent than I can do a better job of addressing the issue, but I would just like to state my concern for this talk about "locking down" the rumor mill... As many have pointed out before, its trading lots of valuable benefits (having 17 eyes checking validity instead of 7) for what? A clean image? Whatever.
And some have stopped visiting because of the way it is now. Go figure.
What I'm proposing would bring the 'Mill back more to the way it was many years ago when tipsters sent information to the mods who would then post it for discussion and speculation. Remember that? It was organized, exciting and great for everybody. Now that we have dedicated subforums for both discussion and speculation, the Rumor Mill itself ought to be just for information, not random guessing games and craziness.
Keep in mind that speculation and discussion would continue just as it does now, only maintained in the forums that were made for it.
Because the Rumor Mill is supposed to be the hub of new information. New Cards Discussion is supposed to be the place for (get this) discussing the new cards. The Mill shouldn't be cluttered, it should be presenting new information in a clear, straightforward manner.
I somehow doubt removing the messy elements and leaving all the spoilage, discussion and speculation would dull the excitement. I mean, isn't the excitement in getting new spoilers themselves?
I'll let you in on a secret: to me, both of those are spam. You guys ever wonder why I don't moderate in the 'Mill all that often? It's because I'd end up raising holy hell deleting/warning/infracting 80% of what I see. It's also why my participation in the 'Mill has declined since becoming a Global, I feel compelled to start swinging, so to speak.
The staff in the Rumor Mill have probably the roughest job on the site in terms of moderating specific areas (though the Marketplace staff doesn't exactly have it easy, either), and they have my unceasing respect as a result. I don't know if I could maintain my preferred level of strictness for long here, I'd just plain burn out. Being a bit more lenient is likely the only way mods like seds and RE have managed to cling to their sanity after all these years.
Again, I remember back when all but the ballsiest tipsters operated through the mods, so perhaps I just assume that they still would. And as for weeding out solid tips as fake, I admit that it could happen. But out RM team have an incredible track record and I think their experience makes them sharp enough to as a whole rarely write off real stuff as fake. That becomes even less an issue if particularly experienced members (think Hunter or Caranthir & charlequin prior to their modship) are recruited in much the same way as iRebel in Standard or Magik & Memnarch in Marketplace - limited mod powers and responsibility but capable of assisting the staff as necessary.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Oh give me a break. Again, I'm not saying we need to be like The New York Times or something. But for God's sake, this is the biggest MTG rumor site there is, and we should at least be making an effort to make the rumor mill not look like a place where a bunch of random people try to solve puzzles. The rumor mill is part of what attracts people to this site, and it's not really elitist to say that having a ton of people running around solving puzzles could be detracting people from joining the site.
As to your other point, the rumor mill was great for a long time without goofy puzzles in each post. While it's always going to have faults like you mention, the problem right now is unequivocally worse than it was before in my opinion.
Here, here. Nice post. The rumor mill is full of spam and ineffectual posts, and no reasonable changes will change that. The only thing the mods can do is moderate. There is no need for major changes, we just need to make sure the status of topics (solved/confirmed etc) is kept clear.
Twitter
But it does just that. If you just want new information in a clear straightforward manner, just read the Partial Spoiler and Compiled Info threads. What does your idea offer that those well-organized threads don't?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Of course, that's also unenforceable without the mods cleaning up the threads afterward, so no, it's not a moderator-less solution.
*shrug*
It serves to make this site better than a bunch of kids spouting off ransom crap, basically. The site's image matters to the community. I doubt many here would want to be part of a site that's known for being the armpit of the internet. I'd rather be a part of a community that values quality, but maybe I'm just wacky that way.
Because those who have been watching have noticed a dramatic increase in posts that are essentially worthless as a result of trying to solve or otherwise discuss these riddles. It's just common sense. If a thread has 100 posts before any information is gleaned from the riddle, it's got about 100 more useless spammy posts than a thread which just posts the information outright.
Perhaps, but these riddles are encouraging bad posts from members who probably wouldn't have done so otherwise. Also, the volume of terrible posts is important to keep in mind when thinking of the workload for the staff in here.
A clean image, increased order and perhaps encouragement for members to post better. And what exactly are the lots of benefits we'd hypothetically be trading off? Having 500 sets of eyes now instead of 10 in the proposition? Sorry to be blunt, but of those 500 sets of eyes, 15 might actually have something of worth to contribute (and 10 of those 15 would still be analyzing under my proposition). The rest aren't contributing much of anything (except to their postcounts) most of the time. I'm sorry ... but they're just not.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
On the other side of the coin, many people have pointed out possible problems the puzzles have. I just don't see any benefit to keeping them when they clearly aggravate a sizable portion of the community and don't really make much of a difference to people who do like them.
Card: [card]
Hybrid: :symub: = order doesn't matter
Spoiler: [spoiler]
Deck: [deck]
Except what most people who are saying "nay" to the puzzles are complaining for, is that they want the discussion. They just don't want to have to weed through 5 to 20 pages worth of puzzle solving to get to that discussion, and sometimes not get to that discussion at all (as was the case with the Nicol Bolas card).
Personally I am all for the option of locking down the Rumor Mill, and leaving the speculation and discussion for their respective sub forums. So I would like to ask that this be implemented if possible.
So, then, what does the Rumor Mill offer now that can't be covered by either NCD or Spec?
Nothing major, essentially, but it wasn't supposed to. It's intended to be a reorganization to reduce the amount of spam and streamline that section of the forums. What my idea offers isn't on the spoiling end, it's on the overall order of the 'Mill and it's children forums.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Doesnt spoil them so quickly and allows for little speculation.
THe problem.. EVERYTHING down to the crap common has a puzzle that takes a awhile to figure out it turns people off the Puzzles to a point where they just want the card.
What started out as cute has become poison.
They are now becoming Spam Bombs, clusters of ignorance *people who ignore the true answer cause they WANT to be right*, a TON of Post++ery.
I for one MISS the old days...
Discussion of the rumors themselves.
There's also a bit of a difference between discussion of cards in Rumor Mill proper and NCD. In RM you see more of initial reactions (both of the "i like this card" spam and stuff like "i think this card will work great in deck X"). In NCD, you tend to see more detailed and though out posts, after people have actually though about the card for a few days.
But 2-3 topical threads seems more streamlined than a thread per card.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
But the fact it's unenforceable is only a valid point if the poster is not doing it. Since there is an interest from the sources' side in keeping things clean, I would assume they would be willing to comply.
You think you can fight the direction the community is going? I've been a member of some pretty large communities, start to, well in some cases, finish, and fighting the natural social evolution of the community has invariably ended with an unpleasant outcome. In case you haven't guessed, that direction is usually: smaller, organized, and concise --> larger, more difficult to moderate, more random crap.
But you're saying that the simple fact that there are riddles would encourage this behavior, and that even cleaning up the process would not mitigate it. How can you be so certain of that?
So you're now talking about "terrible posts" and not "spam"? Its one thing to moderate what obviously counts as spam out of the interest of keeping the forums clean. It's another thing to moderate if you feel what somebody posted is not the most intelligible opinion to hold.
According to Fnord's point, those 5 people catch more than you are willing to admit:
To which you said that the information could simply be made public to better ascertain the validity of the information... The problem is, you can't always be certain if something needs that extra scrutiny. With less eyes, if it needs extra scrutiny but the staff feels it checks out, oops, they just made a mistake and posted false information as confirmed. So much for professionalism. Or if it needs extra scrutiny but the staff feels it doesn't check out, oops, there goes that spoler.
{mikeyG}'s idea of a more streamlined forum using a seperate mod's forum prior to posting rumor's is decent and the new card discussion forum does need more of a purpose(as opposed to being a collection of threads about the latest cards which contain in them a rehash of people's posts in the original rumor thread (and of course the dreaded "___ is the worst set ever" threads)).
Possible a sort of combined approach might be better, allowing rumormongers to check with the mods first but then to post the information in an interesting puzzle format(with the provisio that the thread's first post be updated with the full information after the puzzle is solved(because otherwise if you weren't online when the puzzle was originally posted you might have to look through 8 or more pages of posts before finding the answer)).
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!
Except with the way things stand now, we do not get to that discussion of the rumors themselves for between 2 to 3 (sometimes even 20) pages of discussion. So yeah, that point is completely moot.
In what way do they need to be discussed? In particular, how would they be discussed that needs to be in the RM and not NCD and/or Spec? If it's concrete information, it can be dealt with in NCD. If it's vague or teasing (say early infor or early leaked images which provide a bit, but nothing but spec fodder) it can be discussed to death in Speculation.
Exactly why I think we should keep the good one and ditch the other.
Rarely would it be a thread per card. Typically, once the cards really start flowing, they come in groups. Organizing the cards and tidbits of info into logical groups for posting ("5 Blue commons", "3 basic green fatties", "4 cards with Exalted", "Ten Hints of what's in the Set", etc) is both easy and helps make everything about the set easier to navigate. The partial spoiler can remain as it is as just the cards sorted, but the threads in the 'Mill can contain further detail (card images and/or hi-res card art, tidbits of info that relate to the card, etc) that aren't strictly needed on the partial spoiler (or which may never actually make it there).
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains