Yeah but this way it is a much more powerful ability: you don't have to sacrifice anything, you can sacrifice any creature (even Sidisi herself) and you don't make any choices until the ability resolves. So much flexibility.
No, it makes perfect sense. She exploits her own intestines. That works fine, I do it all the time.
Yeah, I was pleased to discover that that sort of thing is easier to do once you become undead, as Sidisi has done. No more blacking out mid-procedure due to pain, or dying because you had to remove your own heart. It's a lot more convenient.
If you have 1 of the new sidisi out, and play another new sidisi, can you sac one for exploit before the legend rule kicks in?
No. This is because triggered abilities are put onto the stack the next time a player gets priority, but state-based actions are checked and executed right before each time a player gets priority. You'll only have 1 Sidisi left on the battlefield when the triggered ability starts resolving.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
If Sidisi isn't on the battlefield anymore when its exploit ability resolve, do you get the search trigger (assuming you have a creature to sac)?
No. In that case the triggered ability doesn't exist at the appropriate point when the event occurs (that is, immediately before the sacrifice for exploit), so there's no trigger.
If Sidisi isn't on the battlefield anymore when its exploit ability resolve, do you get the search trigger (assuming you have a creature to sac)?
No. In that case the triggered ability doesn't exist at the appropriate point when the event occurs (that is, immediately before the sacrifice for exploit), so there's no trigger.
That isn't how that works. No matter what happens to Sidisi, once her ability triggers you can't stop it unless you remove all the sac-able creatures.
That isn't how that works. No matter what happens to Sidisi, once her ability triggers you can't stop it unless you remove all the sac-able creatures.
Well, yes, you can still sacrifice (exploit) a creature. But there won't be a triggered ability around that looks for "When Sidisi, Undead Vizier exploits a creature" when you do, if she's already been removed by that time.
You may have missed it, but exploit abilities are templated as two separate (if linked) abilities, not one. It's not, "You may sacrifice a creature. If you do, [effect]," but rather, exploit and "When [this] exploits a creature, [effect]."
If Sidisi isn't on the battlefield anymore when its exploit ability resolve, do you get the search trigger (assuming you have a creature to sac)?
No. In that case the triggered ability doesn't exist at the appropriate point when the event occurs (that is, immediately before the sacrifice for exploit), so there's no trigger.
That isn't how that works. No matter what happens to Sidisi, once her ability triggers you can't stop it unless you remove all the sac-able creatures.
Have you read my question? I found the same answer with Mistbind Clique, which use the same exact wording, so that makes sense: the "whenever ~ exploits/champions" can't trigger if the creature isn't on the battlefield.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
If Sidisi isn't on the battlefield anymore when its exploit ability resolve, do you get the search trigger (assuming you have a creature to sac)?
No. In that case the triggered ability doesn't exist at the appropriate point when the event occurs (that is, immediately before the sacrifice for exploit), so there's no trigger.
That isn't how that works. No matter what happens to Sidisi, once her ability triggers you can't stop it unless you remove all the sac-able creatures.
To get back to the OP question... why is it that much different if Sidisi sac himself to its own exploit trigger? He's not on the battlefield anymore after the resolution of its exploit trigger. Does it use LKI of some sort or what? I'm always a little bit confused about this as to whether or not a permanent can see itself or another permanent entering/leaving the play in some specific situations.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
To get back to the OP question... why is it that much different if Sidisi sac himself to its own exploit trigger? He's not on the battlefield anymore after the resolution of its exploit trigger. Does it use LKI of some sort or what? I'm always a little bit confused about this as to whether or not a permanent can see itself or another permanent entering/leaving the play in some specific situations.
It's a leaves-the-battlefield ability (it triggers off of a permanent leaving the battlefield), so you check the game state immediately before the zone-change event rather than afterward.
603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger.
That's false, there is no "if you do", it's a completely different trigger. If it was part of the same trigger with an if you do clause, it would work even if Sidisi was killed before its exploit trigger resolved.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
No, it would then be an activated ability. It is perfect as it is, it avoids being completely broken, your opponent can Path to Exile Sidisi in response, you will resolve the Exploit trigger no matter what but you don't get to search for a card and that's perfectly fine with me.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So if i have one Sidisi and play another, can i still use new Sidisi´s Exploit ability on another creature and get its effect when i Legend-Rule her (the new one)?
In short, the Sidisi that puts the ETB trigger on the stack needs to still be on the battlefield when its own exploit trigger resolves to trigger the search part. So, assuming you put that second Sidisi into the graveyard as part of the legendary rule, you wouldn't get the search trigger, whether or not you sac a creature to its exploit trigger.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
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Yeah but this way it is a much more powerful ability: you don't have to sacrifice anything, you can sacrifice any creature (even Sidisi herself) and you don't make any choices until the ability resolves. So much flexibility.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Yeah, I was pleased to discover that that sort of thing is easier to do once you become undead, as Sidisi has done. No more blacking out mid-procedure due to pain, or dying because you had to remove your own heart. It's a lot more convenient.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
No. In that case the triggered ability doesn't exist at the appropriate point when the event occurs (that is, immediately before the sacrifice for exploit), so there's no trigger.
That isn't how that works. No matter what happens to Sidisi, once her ability triggers you can't stop it unless you remove all the sac-able creatures.
Well, yes, you can still sacrifice (exploit) a creature. But there won't be a triggered ability around that looks for "When Sidisi, Undead Vizier exploits a creature" when you do, if she's already been removed by that time.
You may have missed it, but exploit abilities are templated as two separate (if linked) abilities, not one. It's not, "You may sacrifice a creature. If you do, [effect]," but rather, exploit and "When [this] exploits a creature, [effect]."
Have you read my question? I found the same answer with Mistbind Clique, which use the same exact wording, so that makes sense: the "whenever ~ exploits/champions" can't trigger if the creature isn't on the battlefield.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
To get back to the OP question... why is it that much different if Sidisi sac himself to its own exploit trigger? He's not on the battlefield anymore after the resolution of its exploit trigger. Does it use LKI of some sort or what? I'm always a little bit confused about this as to whether or not a permanent can see itself or another permanent entering/leaving the play in some specific situations.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
It's a leaves-the-battlefield ability (it triggers off of a permanent leaving the battlefield), so you check the game state immediately before the zone-change event rather than afterward.
WotC development was rather explicit on exploit...
Exploit means "Whenever this enters the battlefield, you may sacrifice a creature, if you do then (effect)"
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
The first part of that is structured as a cost. If X was paid has been around for a while now...
Once Sidisi is on the field - it doesn't matter what creature is sacrificed to pay for the ability, only if the cost is paid.
Perhaps the syntax is better written as
Exploit means "Sacrifice a creature:"effect" ??
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
In short, the Sidisi that puts the ETB trigger on the stack needs to still be on the battlefield when its own exploit trigger resolves to trigger the search part. So, assuming you put that second Sidisi into the graveyard as part of the legendary rule, you wouldn't get the search trigger, whether or not you sac a creature to its exploit trigger.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.