Brooding Saurian combo for the win! (Lets you steal opponent's spells and get back your Chimera... or steal their permanents and sacrifice them to a sac outlet for more fun!)
Lets say i exchanged chimera for my opp revelation at my end step. on his mainphase he plays aetherling and I counter it. If he exchanges back, the counter will have no legal target but the aetherling and such, would still resolve countering aetherling right?
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Lets say i exchanged chimera for my opp revelation at my end step. on his mainphase he plays aetherling and I counter it. If he exchanges back, the counter will have no legal target but the aetherling and such, would still resolve countering aetherling right?
Once the counter is on the stack you can change the target to the counter itself ,as it says counter target spell and the counter is a spell
You can't play a counter countering itself cause when you make targets for it ( when you play it) the counter isn't on the stack soo can't be a target.
Once the counter is on the stack you can change the target to the counter itself ,as it says counter target spell and the counter is a spell
You can't play a counter countering itself cause when you make targets for it ( when you play it) the counter isn't on the stack soo can't be a target.
but if it is say essence scatter my idea is correct right?
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Once the counter is on the stack you can change the target to the counter itself ,as it says counter target spell and the counter is a spell
You can't play a counter countering itself cause when you make targets for it ( when you play it) the counter isn't on the stack soo can't be a target.
This is incorrect. Spells are put onto the stack before targets are chosen. However, spells are unable to target themselves. So you can't change the target of a counterspell to itself. Spells like Redirect work by making the counterspell target the Redirect.
Comprehensive Rules quotes:
Spells are on the stack before targets are chosen:
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after they've been made.
601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires.
Spells can't target themselves:
114.4. A spell or ability on the stack is an illegal target for itself.
This is incorrect. Spells are put onto the stack before targets are chosen. However, spells are unable to target themselves. So you can't change the target of a counterspell to itself. Spells like Redirect work by making the counterspell target the Redirect.
This is incorrect. Spells are put onto the stack before targets are chosen. However, spells are unable to target themselves. So you can't change the target of a counterspell to itself. Spells like Redirect work by making the counterspell target the Redirect.
Comprehensive Rules quotes:
Spells are on the stack before targets are chosen:
Spells can't target themselves:
thank you for clarifying for me. Looks like this could have many uses against control no?
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I feel like as long as this isnt your only creature on board, they cant dsphere anything, they cant kill anything, they cant even rev. It just beats in there for 3 until they get a verdict or double downfall.
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An interesting interaction I thought of that I haven't seen yet is with Strionic Resonator (vs targeted spells). It's probably not very competitive since the Resonator isn't any good on its own, but basically it goes as follows.
Opponent casts targeted spell, so the Chimera triggers.
Copy the trigger with the Resonator.
The copy of the trigger resolves, so you exchange control of the Chimera and the spell, choosing new targets for it.
The original trigger resolves, so you exchange control of the Chimera and the spell again (so you get back the Chimera), and you still get to choose new targets for the spell (even though you probably don't need to since you already did).
It might be an interesting interaction for Commander, though...
Hypothetically speaking; you cast Master of Waves, you opponent casts Gainsay, you redirect it to itself because you control it now, (here is the hypothetical part) if your opponent responds to the trigger (of the Chimera) with another Gainsay you would still get control of it since control has not been exchanged?
I can't think of a single time that this can be abused, but if your opponent responds to the Chimera trigger you get both spells? I can't think of a time that someone would respond to the trigger... Your opponent can literally just say pass priority back, then respond to the next unresolved spell. Ya?
Maybe I'm just blowing chunks on this?
Also my first thought for this card was added control with Knowledge Pool, but it kicks you back once you lose it... Makes a funny deck though!
Technically, you could exchange control of Perplexing Chimera with the second Gainsay if you had already exchanged control with the first Gainsay, but the problem for you is that because you've already exchanged control of Perplexing Chimera with the first Gainsay, exchanging control of Perplexing Chimera with the second Gainsay would mean that your opponent exchanges control of Perplexing Chimera with his own Gainsay, so an exchange would do nothing as your opponent would already control both cards.
The crucial thing to note here is that Perplexing Chimera does not need to be under your control in order for an exchange to occur, but so long as its ability went on the stack while you were in control of the Chimera, you are in control of the ability and therefore get to make the decision of whether or not control is exchanged. This can lead to some hilarious situations in multiplayer games in which a player in control of neither Perplexing Chimera nor a spell that triggered its ability will get to decide whether the controllers of either card exchange control of those cards.
tl;dr: Only if you controlled a second Perplexing Chimera could you exchange control of that second Chimera with the second Gainsay.
Edit: Aaaand, I read the question wrong. I thought the questioner implied that the stack was layered with Gainsays and Chimera triggers. I hope I've still at least clarified something about the Chimera for some people, though.
A way to make Perplexing Chimera more one sided: Vortex Elemental. After the exchange, during your turn, make the Chimera block, and shuffle both back into your library. It may not be the most efficient, but I do see both cards existing in the same deck.
So, here's an advanced Timing question. I'm pretty sure I have this right, but I want confirmation (Judges get ready). Triggered abilities get placed on the stack in APNAP Order, meaning they would resolve in reverse order.
So, My opponent plays Kozilek, Butcher of Truth thinking that Kozilek will destroy my Perplexing Chimera before I can swap, but what actually happens is I swap with him and then Kozilek's ability resolves, correct?
Also, I would not be able to change Kozilek's ability because it is an ability that is already on the stack and not a part of him as a spell.
So, the end result would be I get Kozilek and my oppenent ends up with nothing.
My understanding is that this order would work for anything with a "when cast" trigger.
Also, Just clarification:
I read this in another thread
In some unusual cases, you may not control Perplexing Chimera when its triggered ability resolves (perhaps because the triggered ability triggered again and resolved while the original ability was on the stack). In these cases, you can exchange control of Perplexing Chimera and the spell that causes the ability to trigger, even if you control neither of them. If you do, you'll be able to change targets of the spell, not the spell's new controller.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what this is saying is:
My opponent plays a big dude, and I activate Chimera.
In response to Chimera ability, he plays Swords to Plowshares targeting the chimera
I reactivate Chimera because I still control it and take StP.
On Resolution I choose a new target for StP (other than the Chimera) and he gets the chimera
Because the Chimera is still on the table, I get the fatty and he keeps the Chimera
Just to add Confusion, let's add player 3
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what this is saying is:
Player 2 plays a big dude, and I activate Chimera.
In response to Chimera ability, Player 3 plays Swords to Plowshares targeting the chimera
I reactivate Chimera because I still control it and take StP.
On Resolution I choose a new target for StP (other than the Chimera) and Player 3 gets the chimera
Because the Chimera is still on the table, I get the fatty and Player 2 gets the Chimera Player 3 gets fatty and Player 2 gets Chimera
If all of these scenarios are correct, which I'm pretty sure they are, I think this may be the most ridiculously OP card in the set.
EDIT:
I re-read that... doesn't work with the fatty methinks, but would effectively work for spells on stack. IE: Doom Blade + StP because, while I wouldn't control the spells, I would choose the targets which is just as good.
I'll assume you're talking about Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre instead of Kozilek since you're talking about destroying stuff.
Yes, the Ulamog "cast" trigger will be put onto the stack first since it's your opponent's turn, then the Chimera's "cast" trigger will be put onto the stack on top of it. You'll get the Ulamog spell, your opponent will get the Chimera, and then the Ulamog ability will destroy whatever it was already targeting.
In your 2-Player scenario
- Your opponent casts big dude and Chimera triggers
- Your opponent responds with StP and Chimera triggers again
- When the newest Chimera trigger resolves, you decide to exchange control of it with StP and change the target
- When the first Chimera trigger finally resolves, you can choose whether to have your opponent exchange control of it with his own big dude spell (either way, nothing really happens)
In your 3-Player scenario:
- Player B casts big dude and triggers Chimera
- Player C responds with StP and triggers Chimera again
- When the newest Chimera trigger resolves, you decide to exchange control of it with Player C's StP and change the target
- When the first Chimera trigger finally resolves, you can choose whether to have Players B and C exchange control of the Chimera and the big dude spell
So, all of that said, now for the most convoluted ruling scenario:
Another 3-Player Scenario
One of my opponents has a True Name Nemesis in play with protection from me.
He casts Doom blade on my Chimera. I activate Chimera to swap.
Player 3 then casts anything in response.
I activate Chimera to swap with him.
Can I now effectively Doom Blade the True Name Nemesis since I choose the target, but don't control the spell?
End result I get the spell from Player 3, True Name Nemesis dies, and The first opponent gets Chimera.
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Another good creature interaction with Chimera in standard: Banisher priest. If you cast it while they control Perplexing Chimera, two possibillites:
1. They take Banisher Priest, giving you the Chimera, and they can exile the Chimera now that you control it again. This isn't a good swap for them, and any removal, like bounce or supreme verdict, means the Chimera is returned to owner's control because of the wording on Banisher Priest.
2. They choose not to take Banisher Priest, and you exile Chimera, meaning they won't be able to take advantage of it, and the Chimera will return to your control once BP is removed from play.
Since opponent would never choose option 2, you're almost always just turning their Chimera into a vanilla 2/2 that gives you the Chimera back when it leaves play.
Yes. When you have your opponent exchange control of the Chimera for the other opponent's Doom Blade, you don't control the Blade when you're selecting a new target.
Can I put the chimera's ability on the stack and then sacrifice it to a sac outlet (such as cartel aristocrat)? This way I get their spell and they get nothing?
Can I kill or bounce my own chimera after I put his ability on the stack so I steal their spell and they get nothing?
If I enchant chimera with gift of immortality before i exchange control with an opponent, and chimera dies from a verdict, does chimera come back under my control enchanted with immortality?
Because if this works then that's a very simple standard legal combo.
"Exchange" is one of those special actions in the game that has special rules behind it. If you're supposed to exchange some specific things, you have to be able to make the entire exchange as the spell/ability resolves, otherwise it does nothing. If Perplexing Chimera goes missing somehow before his ability resolves then the exchange won't happen.
About Gift of Immortality: Yes, because Gift specifically says "owner's control".
So let's say I have Rider out....Chimera out...and another creature.
I'm trying to figure a way that I tap Rider, Chimera and other creature, opponent plays spell, hmmmm.....it's not working in my mind...is this possible?
So let's say I have Rider out....Chimera out...and another creature.
I'm trying to figure a way that I tap Rider, Chimera and other creature, opponent plays spell, hmmmm.....it's not working in my mind...is this possible?
Not that way. If you return the Chimera to your hand in response to its exchange trigger, you can't make the exchange (and can't choose new targets); on the other hand, if you wait until the exchange occurs, you can't tap the Chimera to pay the cost of Tradewind Rider's ability.
However, you can bounce the Chimera after the exchange if you have another creature you can tap besides the Chimera.
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Lets say i exchanged chimera for my opp revelation at my end step. on his mainphase he plays aetherling and I counter it. If he exchanges back, the counter will have no legal target but the aetherling and such, would still resolve countering aetherling right?
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Once the counter is on the stack you can change the target to the counter itself ,as it says counter target spell and the counter is a spell
You can't play a counter countering itself cause when you make targets for it ( when you play it) the counter isn't on the stack soo can't be a target.
but if it is say essence scatter my idea is correct right?
This is incorrect. Spells are put onto the stack before targets are chosen. However, spells are unable to target themselves. So you can't change the target of a counterspell to itself. Spells like Redirect work by making the counterspell target the Redirect.
Comprehensive Rules quotes:
Spells are on the stack before targets are chosen:
Spells can't target themselves:
Oh my bad
thank you for clarifying for me. Looks like this could have many uses against control no?
Yeah, the Chimera tends to poop on control and combo significantly more than it poops on aggro. It still dies to Lightning Strike (or exchanges itself away), and swapping it with Supreme Verdict or Anger of the Gods is still pointless, but until they kill it, they're not swapping Sphinx's Revelation or Elspeth, Sun's Champion with it.
I feel like as long as this isnt your only creature on board, they cant dsphere anything, they cant kill anything, they cant even rev. It just beats in there for 3 until they get a verdict or double downfall.
Opponent casts targeted spell, so the Chimera triggers.
Copy the trigger with the Resonator.
The copy of the trigger resolves, so you exchange control of the Chimera and the spell, choosing new targets for it.
The original trigger resolves, so you exchange control of the Chimera and the spell again (so you get back the Chimera), and you still get to choose new targets for the spell (even though you probably don't need to since you already did).
It might be an interesting interaction for Commander, though...
Technically, you could exchange control of Perplexing Chimera with the second Gainsay if you had already exchanged control with the first Gainsay, but the problem for you is that because you've already exchanged control of Perplexing Chimera with the first Gainsay, exchanging control of Perplexing Chimera with the second Gainsay would mean that your opponent exchanges control of Perplexing Chimera with his own Gainsay, so an exchange would do nothing as your opponent would already control both cards.
The crucial thing to note here is that Perplexing Chimera does not need to be under your control in order for an exchange to occur, but so long as its ability went on the stack while you were in control of the Chimera, you are in control of the ability and therefore get to make the decision of whether or not control is exchanged. This can lead to some hilarious situations in multiplayer games in which a player in control of neither Perplexing Chimera nor a spell that triggered its ability will get to decide whether the controllers of either card exchange control of those cards.
tl;dr: Only if you controlled a second Perplexing Chimera could you exchange control of that second Chimera with the second Gainsay.
Edit: Aaaand, I read the question wrong. I thought the questioner implied that the stack was layered with Gainsays and Chimera triggers. I hope I've still at least clarified something about the Chimera for some people, though.
So, My opponent plays Kozilek, Butcher of Truth thinking that Kozilek will destroy my Perplexing Chimera before I can swap, but what actually happens is I swap with him and then Kozilek's ability resolves, correct?
Also, I would not be able to change Kozilek's ability because it is an ability that is already on the stack and not a part of him as a spell.
So, the end result would be I get Kozilek and my oppenent ends up with nothing.
My understanding is that this order would work for anything with a "when cast" trigger.
Also, Just clarification:
I read this in another thread
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what this is saying is:
Because the Chimera is still on the table, I get the fatty and he keeps the ChimeraJust to add Confusion, let's add player 3
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what this is saying is:
Because the Chimera is still on the table, I get the fatty and Player 2 gets the ChimeraPlayer 3 gets fatty and Player 2 gets ChimeraOr is that rules tidbit bogus?
Found here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11624163
If all of these scenarios are correct,
which I'm pretty sure they are,I think this may be the most ridiculously OP card in the set.EDIT:
I re-read that... doesn't work with the fatty methinks, but would effectively work for spells on stack. IE: Doom Blade + StP because, while I wouldn't control the spells, I would choose the targets which is just as good.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
Yes, the Ulamog "cast" trigger will be put onto the stack first since it's your opponent's turn, then the Chimera's "cast" trigger will be put onto the stack on top of it. You'll get the Ulamog spell, your opponent will get the Chimera, and then the Ulamog ability will destroy whatever it was already targeting.
In your 2-Player scenario
- Your opponent casts big dude and Chimera triggers
- Your opponent responds with StP and Chimera triggers again
- When the newest Chimera trigger resolves, you decide to exchange control of it with StP and change the target
- When the first Chimera trigger finally resolves, you can choose whether to have your opponent exchange control of it with his own big dude spell (either way, nothing really happens)
In your 3-Player scenario:
- Player B casts big dude and triggers Chimera
- Player C responds with StP and triggers Chimera again
- When the newest Chimera trigger resolves, you decide to exchange control of it with Player C's StP and change the target
- When the first Chimera trigger finally resolves, you can choose whether to have Players B and C exchange control of the Chimera and the big dude spell
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Another 3-Player Scenario
One of my opponents has a True Name Nemesis in play with protection from me.
He casts Doom blade on my Chimera. I activate Chimera to swap.
Player 3 then casts anything in response.
I activate Chimera to swap with him.
Can I now effectively Doom Blade the True Name Nemesis since I choose the target, but don't control the spell?
End result I get the spell from Player 3, True Name Nemesis dies, and The first opponent gets Chimera.
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1. They take Banisher Priest, giving you the Chimera, and they can exile the Chimera now that you control it again. This isn't a good swap for them, and any removal, like bounce or supreme verdict, means the Chimera is returned to owner's control because of the wording on Banisher Priest.
2. They choose not to take Banisher Priest, and you exile Chimera, meaning they won't be able to take advantage of it, and the Chimera will return to your control once BP is removed from play.
Since opponent would never choose option 2, you're almost always just turning their Chimera into a vanilla 2/2 that gives you the Chimera back when it leaves play.
Yes. When you have your opponent exchange control of the Chimera for the other opponent's Doom Blade, you don't control the Blade when you're selecting a new target.
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Can I kill or bounce my own chimera after I put his ability on the stack so I steal their spell and they get nothing?
If I enchant chimera with gift of immortality before i exchange control with an opponent, and chimera dies from a verdict, does chimera come back under my control enchanted with immortality?
Because if this works then that's a very simple standard legal combo.
About Gift of Immortality: Yes, because Gift specifically says "owner's control".
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Tradewind Rider and Perplexing Chimera
So let's say I have Rider out....Chimera out...and another creature.
I'm trying to figure a way that I tap Rider, Chimera and other creature, opponent plays spell, hmmmm.....it's not working in my mind...is this possible?
Not that way. If you return the Chimera to your hand in response to its exchange trigger, you can't make the exchange (and can't choose new targets); on the other hand, if you wait until the exchange occurs, you can't tap the Chimera to pay the cost of Tradewind Rider's ability.
However, you can bounce the Chimera after the exchange if you have another creature you can tap besides the Chimera.