Even if every single card in this set were 50% better, competitive players still wouldn't buy boxes. They'd still buy the top 10% or so of cards as singles and not buy the 90% of cards that aren't in the top competitive netdecks. The best of those 90% would be better, but the competitive people wouldn't buy them (nor packs/boxes).
The 'print cards people want to buy' (-Maro) philosophy is what's gotten standard into its dumpster fire position and all these bans.
They've already said that small sets are actually harder on them design wise (pairing them to their big siblings) and that's part of why they're pitching them out the window. Big sets have almost always been better, had more diversity, and constructed playable cards so maybe the future will be brighter.
Feels like this set is suffering from an overabundance of 'story influence'. As far as Overcome I'm happy to see it toned down because in limited Overrun is game ending and there are enough cards that just end it all when they're played.
Limited moves packs which makes them money. It's part of big events and adds to the diversity of what you can do/play with mtg. Wishing it away is pointless.
You presume you know how they work and, in fact, assume the worst. With the referent of Overrun being so obvious, it is clear that the card was first tested as a reprint or functional reprint. They must have found out that it made a group of other designed cards or a strategy too strong and rather than change them, they changed this one card. Overrun has been reprinted a few times in the past and sometimes it was borderline overpowered while other times it was almost unplayable. You cannot predict how that card would have worked in this environment but WotC has the tools and experience to make a more informed guess than at least you.
Also, how are you getting "shortchanged"? How is the fact that this card is worse than Overrun rips you off your money while profiting WotC more?
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Just sacrifice Standard for other formats. It's what I did - it's annoying that so much of each set is just waste that'll never be played outside of a draft but it's also what allows me to play EDH and it also keeps cards in circulation and available to be sold rather than gathering dust on a shelf.
If people are happy (or at least willing) to play Standard with gimped cards, let them.
It's quite simple. Overrun is actually oppressive. This block has more mana dorks than we've seen in a long while. I'd wager that they tested Overrun (or an overrun functional reprint) and found it to be too powerful.
It's pretty telling that Overcome and Open Fire, despite their 'inferiority', are still perceived to be among the strongest cards in this limited (at least, among non-rares).
Outside of limited nobody should care for these cards anyway, theres other cards that fit that slot.
Abrade is a much more powerful removal + shatter split card, which is really good, so theres a card for everyone here.
----
The set has other major flaws, but Overcome is just a worse Overrun , which is fine as its still pretty good as it is and that slot for a limited card is exactly the slot you can work with to fit and change cards for a different format.
Just reprinting the same cards over and over would result in a terrible boring limited experience, that doesnt solve anything.
----
The powerlevel of lands and spells is so bad that the latest sets just dont deliver anything of value.
Commons and uncommon really dont matter , outside of rare exceptions (which are almost always pushed intentionally).
To take my LGS as an example, FNM opens more than two booster boxes every week. That's why limited takes a large place in design.
Second, to add cycling to the card would mean anyone could draft the card without going to a go-wide strategy. Cycling on a card makes the card always pertinent. By not putting cycling on it, there is less incentive to just randomly draft it. (Given, overrun is still a limited bomb, so, there's that.)
Third, as I said, it's still a very high pick in draft.
Theres almost no realistic scenario in which you cycle your game-winner away , unless you are super struggling and then its better than nothing.
Adding cycling to almost any card is totally viable.
The set would even work well if ALL the cards would simply have cycling (would obviously make the cycling matters cards "better" but even then not entirely broken ; but it would certainly make constructed cycling decks much more viable as it could use all cards in the set, instead its reduced to mostly bad cards).
----
A ton of cards in this set are powered down versions of other existing cards.
Not even comparing rare to common, just downright worse versions of existing same rarity cards.
This bothers a lot of people , for a good reason, as it means the set is just weaker overall, while it still is consistent at least within itself (to some degree at least).
Producing a new card with a twist works much better than producing is almost strictly worse version of an already underwhelming card to begin with.
1. Play both in your EDH deck
2. Cast both on the same turn. While ulting Garruk Wildspeaker
3. Laugh maniacally, pausing only to drink the tears and lamentations of your opponents.
90% of every set has always been constructed dumpster tier even before limited was a design consideration. It's a dreamland to think if not for limited, sets would have notably more constructed worthy cards. Constructed has been and would always be the best ~10%.
But nowadays, limited is a large part of the reason mtg is still selling so well. Wishing it away is foolish.
I don't think this is true.
Obviously all cards in a set can't be amazing but in sets like Urza's Saga, it's not like 80% or 90% of the cards were absolutely unplayable outside of limited.
Commander sets are some of my favorite products not just because I like the format but because virtually all the cards new or reprinted are at least somewhat playable. It would be neat to see a booster product that wasn't aimed towards drafting.
1. Play both in your EDH deck
2. Cast both on the same turn. While ulting Garruk Wildspeaker
3. Laugh maniacally, pausing only to drink the tears and lamentations of your opponents.
Then cry when one of your opponents plays a fog after you declared the attackers.
It would be neat to see a booster product that wasn't aimed towards drafting.
Thats pretty much just CUBE, which gets boring fairly fast as its just the same cards you already know from constructed all over again.
It's much more interesting because the majority of the cards you can reuse that you bought from booster packs instead of 85% of the cards are unplayable outside of drafting.
Even if every single card in this set were 50% better, competitive players still wouldn't buy boxes. They'd still buy the top 10% or so of cards as singles and not buy the 90% of cards that aren't in the top competitive netdecks. The best of those 90% would be better, but the competitive people wouldn't buy them (nor packs/boxes).
while true, the only way for them to be able to do that is to crack open boxes, they don't magically enter circulation
therefore: better cards = more sales.
it also helps drive down the prices of sought after cards
a good limited environment can achieve a similar end as more people are interested in and participating in drafting
so... your logic sucks?
Overcome is a safer card that fills the same role as Overrun that they can now use in basically any set without causing problems in any format.
Overrun is harder to cast, limiting how it can be printed, and is riskier to include, especially in any GX deck that produces a lot of creatures.
Sure, the power difference is almost negligible, but the fact of the matter is that Overcome can be used more easily and more often than Overrun could. I see no problem with them increasing the chances of seeing this sort of effect in sets, even if it isn't quite as splashy. And anyway, it's not like it will make much difference in any given game, so why bother being upset. There is more advantage to Overcome's existence than just printing Overrun in its place.
WotC hates green. They always have, and always will.
An above the curve creature played a turn earlier just does not compare to removal that's 2 turns cheaper. Green is fundamentally flawed in design. And its the easiest color to be at the wrong end of a 2 for 1. Green should have bomb ass enchantments like it used to... It doesn't. Love those Gx artifact decks Green finally came close to a control aspect with a gearhulk and it was still a combo deck! Before Solemnity came along almost immediately.
They made Overcome instead of Overrun because dual color decks tend to be popular... AND the last successful mono-green deck was pretty much elves 20 years ago to today.
WotC loves White. And Green is on the opposite side of the spectrum.
Oh look, my 3 mana Excavator just got blown up by a 2 mana abrade. At least I get to replay a fetchland OF ANY COLOR.
Uh, isn't green the third most played color in Standard right now (B > R > G > U > W), and the third most played color in modern (U > R > G > W > B)? Hey look, more played than White in both formats.
+2/+2 and trample until EOT for 3GG is fine, if you're in three colors. Monogreen and two-color can run Overrun, but 3GG is more consistent than 2GGG.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I was killed by Overrun a good many times some years ago when I was new to mtg, so I have some respect for the card. Although it's unplayable in Modern today.
Overcome should have cost only 4 mana, at that it would have been acceptable.
They've already said that small sets are actually harder on them design wise (pairing them to their big siblings) and that's part of why they're pitching them out the window. Big sets have almost always been better, had more diversity, and constructed playable cards so maybe the future will be brighter.
Feels like this set is suffering from an overabundance of 'story influence'. As far as Overcome I'm happy to see it toned down because in limited Overrun is game ending and there are enough cards that just end it all when they're played.
Limited moves packs which makes them money. It's part of big events and adds to the diversity of what you can do/play with mtg. Wishing it away is pointless.
Also, how are you getting "shortchanged"? How is the fact that this card is worse than Overrun rips you off your money while profiting WotC more?
If people are happy (or at least willing) to play Standard with gimped cards, let them.
Custom Set
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hu9uNBSUt92PwGhvexYlwFvsh6_SJBlEEIUV3H9_XyU/edit?usp=sharing
Outside of limited nobody should care for these cards anyway, theres other cards that fit that slot.
Abrade is a much more powerful removal + shatter split card, which is really good, so theres a card for everyone here.
----
The set has other major flaws, but Overcome is just a worse Overrun , which is fine as its still pretty good as it is and that slot for a limited card is exactly the slot you can work with to fit and change cards for a different format.
Just reprinting the same cards over and over would result in a terrible boring limited experience, that doesnt solve anything.
----
The powerlevel of lands and spells is so bad that the latest sets just dont deliver anything of value.
Commons and uncommon really dont matter , outside of rare exceptions (which are almost always pushed intentionally).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ
Second, to add cycling to the card would mean anyone could draft the card without going to a go-wide strategy. Cycling on a card makes the card always pertinent. By not putting cycling on it, there is less incentive to just randomly draft it. (Given, overrun is still a limited bomb, so, there's that.)
Third, as I said, it's still a very high pick in draft.
Adding cycling to almost any card is totally viable.
The set would even work well if ALL the cards would simply have cycling (would obviously make the cycling matters cards "better" but even then not entirely broken ; but it would certainly make constructed cycling decks much more viable as it could use all cards in the set, instead its reduced to mostly bad cards).
----
A ton of cards in this set are powered down versions of other existing cards.
Not even comparing rare to common, just downright worse versions of existing same rarity cards.
This bothers a lot of people , for a good reason, as it means the set is just weaker overall, while it still is consistent at least within itself (to some degree at least).
Producing a new card with a twist works much better than producing is almost strictly worse version of an already underwhelming card to begin with.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ
2. Cast both on the same turn. While ulting Garruk Wildspeaker
3. Laugh maniacally, pausing only to drink the tears and lamentations of your opponents.
I don't think this is true.
Obviously all cards in a set can't be amazing but in sets like Urza's Saga, it's not like 80% or 90% of the cards were absolutely unplayable outside of limited.
Commander sets are some of my favorite products not just because I like the format but because virtually all the cards new or reprinted are at least somewhat playable. It would be neat to see a booster product that wasn't aimed towards drafting.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
DAAAAAAAAAAMN YOU SPORE FROG!!!!
DAAAAAAAAAAAMN YOUUUUUUU!!!
Thats pretty much just CUBE, which gets boring fairly fast as its just the same cards you already know from constructed all over again.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ
It's much more interesting because the majority of the cards you can reuse that you bought from booster packs instead of 85% of the cards are unplayable outside of drafting.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ
while true, the only way for them to be able to do that is to crack open boxes, they don't magically enter circulation
therefore: better cards = more sales.
it also helps drive down the prices of sought after cards
a good limited environment can achieve a similar end as more people are interested in and participating in drafting
so... your logic sucks?
Overrun is harder to cast, limiting how it can be printed, and is riskier to include, especially in any GX deck that produces a lot of creatures.
Sure, the power difference is almost negligible, but the fact of the matter is that Overcome can be used more easily and more often than Overrun could. I see no problem with them increasing the chances of seeing this sort of effect in sets, even if it isn't quite as splashy. And anyway, it's not like it will make much difference in any given game, so why bother being upset. There is more advantage to Overcome's existence than just printing Overrun in its place.
They removed that part as it was somewhat confusing as its a sorcery.
----
If you ask me, that would have made the card much better in this set and not just a terrible Overrun.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ
An above the curve creature played a turn earlier just does not compare to removal that's 2 turns cheaper. Green is fundamentally flawed in design. And its the easiest color to be at the wrong end of a 2 for 1. Green should have bomb ass enchantments like it used to... It doesn't. Love those Gx artifact decks Green finally came close to a control aspect with a gearhulk and it was still a combo deck! Before Solemnity came along almost immediately.
They made Overcome instead of Overrun because dual color decks tend to be popular... AND the last successful mono-green deck was pretty much elves 20 years ago to today.
WotC loves White. And Green is on the opposite side of the spectrum.
Oh look, my 3 mana Excavator just got blown up by a 2 mana abrade. At least I get to replay a fetchland OF ANY COLOR.
On phasing:
Overcome should have cost only 4 mana, at that it would have been acceptable.
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