So far, I dislike this set. It feels like a Commander set so far. The best thing so far about this set is Saheeli Rai (for obvious reasons) and the enemy fast lands.
I'm not really a fan of anything I see in this set. I'll probably play a bit with it, but it doesn't excite me.
I've played since the mid 90s, but as of late I feel like my relationship with MTG has reached a stagnant point where I just kinda go through the motions whenever I care to get involved.
I like Kaladesh, i like it very much. I love artifacts, and when Mirrodin fell against Phyrexia i was very sad (Mirrodin is my favorite Plane), so im so happy to see another Artifact focus plane, and im so much happier to see a no "extraplanar/mysterious and strange threat want to corrupt and conquest this plane" (like Innistrad, Battle for Zendikar, Scars of Mirrodin, etc) for now.
Energy is a interesting mechanic, i have nothing against vehicles (i think its ok), and i dont see the problems with magic clockwork cars in this plane, i mean, giant flying spaceships, robots and artificial intelligent are ok but a no flying or talking magic impulsed car is not?. Another thing i like is how black its not evil, but tragic, and how every color is focused to something about make artifact, even green.
Of course it's the worst set ever. Every new set is, right?
I have very good vibes about the set, and I'm a natural skeptic. I'm just unclear on vehicles, which can stay dead cards like equipments and might become anecdotal in a set that hypes them, but we have yet so much to see that it's impossible to have a definitive opinion.
Hard to judge a set when we haven't seen all of it. Ever hear of integrated machines? That's probably this set I'm guessing. Vehicles look cool to me, and they could be even cooler by the time the block is finished.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I've never cared much about the power level of the set, only how well designed it is. That probably stems from me not actually playing the game, only studying it. So far Kaladesh is shaping up to be a pretty firm one thumb up, one thumb down. I'd put it above the recent few sets, easily better than BFZ, probably better than those since. I enjoy the very good worldbuilding they put into creating a world that pleasantly dodges most of the repetitive tropes of magic sets while avoiding the cartoonish nonsense. Good job to world team. Mechanics wise, its a mixed bag. Vehicles are nifty and a good mechanic but not done with any real clever tricks, so I'm not blown away by it, fabricate is a filler mechanic that inspires yawns and down there with the likes of unleash, only slightly less phoned in. Energy has both the potential (no pun intended) to be great and potential to be a parasitic mess. We got that neo-snow mana I expected in OGW, I can't say its any less a problem. I'm reserving judgement on it yet, but its on the edge either way. And then finally in terms of other concerns: Art looks passable, not as good as a set that really showcases artistry like Innistrad 1.0 did, but way better than the repetitive junk set like BFZ. I'd say arts a bit below average so far but not much. Power-level wise, I concur with what a lot of other people here are saying, this set is not pushed, the pendulum hasn't swung back to power creep. I can't say where it will stack up next to recent sets, but its certainly no NPH
I really like the concept of Vehicles! I never thought I'd see the day when MtG had race cars, of all things, but to me it's a welcome surprise. I know a lot of people think that vehicles clash with the game's fantasy setting, but not every plane has to be a high fantasy world. Each plane is supposed to have its own genre and its own unique feel, and Kaladesh is a high-tech industrialized steampunk world, so cars and skiffs and airships fit in perfectly. And the Crew mechanic is interesting, I'm excited to see how it plays!
As for the energy counters, I'm a little more torn. I think it's a very flavorful mechanic: Kaladesh is a low-magic world where Aether-fueled technology is used as an alternative to mana-fueled spells, so it makes sense for the game to include an alternative resource to pay for various effects. On the other hand, I agree that it might be confusing, especially for people new to the game, since it's yet another thing that players have to keep track of. I need to see more before I make up my mind, it really depends on how useful the energy counters end up being.
The vehicle card template pisses me off. I understand they aren't Creatures. But only Creatures should get a Power/Toughness box. This is going to bite the butt for Wizards so hard Maro will shame himself on the next State of Design article.
This. This is going to cause confusion to not just newer player but experienced players as well. We've all been trained from the start that if you see a P/T box its a creature. Now you see it and think its a creature but its not. So much removal and burn is going to be aimed at these when there not creature its not even funny.
This is just doomsaying. It's the same thing that happened with double-faced cards. You'll get used to it, and you'll get over it.
This isn't remotely close to what players complained about for DFC's. Players complained that DFC's ruined drafting. DFC's didn't lead to confusion of board state due to portraying something they actually were not. DFC's state what they are in their states. Skin Invasion doesn't have a p/t box just because it can transform into a creature, it only gets that once it transforms into a creature. Also combat is going to be muddled since players have to note specifically which creatures are attacking and which ones are just tapped to crew a vehicle.
No, seriously, I have evidence that it will be just fine. I played standard while Theros was legal and gods were everywhere. The P/T box on permanents that are not a creature wont present any great difficulty. People don't get super confused in combat by creatures that were tapped to pay for other abilities (mana generation being a prime example), crewing won't change that.
Set makes for a lower profile standard following the cycle of collected company.
the enemy fast lands have me pumped up for modern. the set feels slow for standard but offers many great new tools for other formants like edh, modern, and possibly legacy. let's just hope aetherworks marvel doesn't turn into an eggs deck.
The set looks great. Wizards are always making mistakes, but in the end, every set ends up being great in its way.
Honestly, There seems to be somewhat less negative blow-hard-ism this set than usual. Even the trollish title of this thread is intentionally sarcastic. That's a good sign for the set.
I like energy counters. It feels innovative and different. People love to call this kind of thing parasitic, and it is to an extent, but the so-called parasitic mechanics are very often fan-favorites after the fact. I don't know how well it works yet, but the mechanic feels deserved.
Fabricate: for for those who like a choice between good and usually better (getting the guy is usually better). This mechanic feels like it could have been without a keyword. There is nothing wrong with this mechanic, but it is pretty unremarkable.
Vehicles: there are a lot of bold decisions being made here. I agree with others that putting the P/T box on non-creatures that turn into creatures is not a thing to be overdone. It worked in Theros, and I think it works here because of the alternate card face, but they have to be careful doing that kind of thing. Likewise, they have been abusing alternate card faces lately with these, plus the Conspiracy 2 cards, plus the card face changes in BFZ. It's not something they can keep doing forever. As far as actual functionallity, they are pretty much just plonky equipments. It's not that much to write home about. I see nothing wrong with it. Certainly, there are plenty of flavor-fails to be had, but the flavor-wins will beat them out. Casual players will take great pains to win by making Emrakul drive a little car.
So far the set looks like complete trash. Saheeli can't protect herself at all. She's worse than Tibalt. Vehicles are completely lame. I'd rather attack with my creatures then tap them to ride a car which will drive right into my opponent's removal spell. Instead of a reprint of Zendikar fetches, we get the enemy Scars of Mirrodin lands. Woo freakin hoo. And because like most good players I don't care about flavor, the flavor is not an excuse for trash cards. Also, look at Inventor's Fair. It has metalcraft! But noooooo too "confusing" for newbie players to have a returning mechanic. We've seen less than a quarter of the set and it already is confirmed how dumbed down it is.
The Supreme Verdict: Kaladesh is trash.
And I have a right to my opinion.
Doc? Is that you?? You have to be trolling if you think Saheeli is worse than Tibalt.
No, seriously, I have evidence that it will be just fine. I played standard while Theros was legal and gods were everywhere. The P/T box on permanents that are not a creature wont present any great difficulty. People don't get super confused in combat by creatures that were tapped to pay for other abilities (mana generation being a prime example), crewing won't change that.
The gods were at Mythic. Vehicles are at common. The Gods are creatures at all times unless their ability makes them explicitly makes them not creatures. Vehicles aren't creatures unless their ability is activated and turns them on. Gods aren't a good reference point for vehicles. The two design types work in different ways and serve different functions in the set.
Its worth noting that I don't necessarily disagree with you. I just don't think the gods of Theros provide any evidence for how easy/difficult vehicles are for casual players to grok.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I must say while reading through the spoilers the words running through my mind the most were meh, ugh and yuck. Pretty much in that order.
This is pretty much a general trend. I feel like the sets that really get me excited are far and between. Before SoI the last one I really liked was Return to Ravnica. That was four years ago.
Maybe magic turns into something like the Simpsons. Used to be great, but nowadays most episodes are garbage, with a few exceptions.
Sometimes I get annoyed about this. For example, Eldritch Moon felt like they were purposefully trying to ruin SoI.
This set though. Just feels like they've run out of ideas...
Yeah such great early episodes like The Dark, Homelands, Alliances, Urzas Saga (which was too powerful and nearly killed Magic), Mercadian Masques, Prophecy... the comparison really doesn't hold any water. Magic will always be a little bit hit and miss. Maro said it himself: It is better to make something that is adored by many and hated by quite a few people too than something no one really likes, but everyone is meh about. You can't satisfy everyone. I like the direction Kaladesh is going and I liked the whole SOI block (though I was disappointed that investigate wasn't used in EMN anymore). There are quite powerful cards in this set already too and the general flavour is awesome. And in what way have they run out of ideas? As someone who likes new interpretations and effects of the colors, Kaladesh is shaping up to be the most interesting set since Khans for me.
This thread is so much of laugh, but this must the the best one so far.
Okay. They added a whole new resource to the game, expanding the design space. They made a new artifact subtype, very flavorful and rather elegantly designed. Fabricate will be quite skill-intensive to make decisions correctly. The whole friggin' motto of the set is innovation. But they are running out of ideas. Sure, sure.
I really do not get most of you, guys. For me, almost any new set is full of fun and challenges, but this might be because I am purely Limited player. Tarkir block, Shadows over Innistrad block, Magic Origins, these were the best recent draft environments. BFZ was worse, but still OK enough.
People complaining about vehicles: where the HECK do you think this thing would make sense than on "steampunk" world? Problem with machines in lore? Look at original Mirrodin, or even Urza's Saga. Not working P/T confusing to newer players? Might be, but there are more difficult things to grasp, and once you can read, it is not a problem. Don't take people for idiots.
And because like most good players I don't care about flavor, the flavor is not an excuse for trash cards.
Another priceless gem, really. What arrogance and entitlement! The game is recently quite dictated by flavor, get used to it or find a different game. Or play eternal formats.
Kaladesh is looking fantastic, the only let-down for me was the new Vehicle type and design. It's terrible, both mechanically and flavour-wise. It would have made a lot more sense if Wizard's had done something like a reverse bestow, similar to the Theros cards.
Crew 1
- When this artifact enters the battlefield you may attach any number of creatures you control to it with a power equal to or greater than it's Crew cost. For as long as it is crewed this vehicle is an artifact creature. Use the power/toughness of the vehicle in place of the crewed creatures' normal statistics.
Something along those lines, anyway. As it stands now the Vehicle type is just fail. Pure epic fail. Terrible mechanics and the flavour is nowhere to be seen.
Everything else about Kaladesh has me excited as hell though, I cannot wait for more and more spoilers!
Because I have a Vorel EDH deck, I'm still bitter we get energy counters instead of charge counters.
On the whole I'm meh on this set. Kaladesh's technomagic flavor doesn't mesh well many other planes. As with the Battle for Zendikar block, it seems like it's doing its own thing. That's cool, but I prefer interaction with entire card pool over mechanics focused on the specific set. (BFZ mostly gave you the choice of Eldrazi, Allies, or GTFO.)
Crew 1
- When this artifact enters the battlefield you may attach any number of creatures you control to it with a power equal to or greater than it's Crew cost. For as long as it is crewed this vehicle is an artifact creature. Use the power/toughness of the vehicle in place of the crewed creatures' normal statistics.
With your version, if I kill all the crewed creatures, the vehicle just sits on the battlefield and never does anything? FeelsBadMan. I much prefer Wizard's version of Crew. Its simple, mostly flavorful (creatures get in and out of vehicles) and should lead to really good limited gameplay. I suspect Crew will mostly be a constructed miss though. At the moment, the only vehicle that looks constructed playable is the Skyship, and I think people are underestimating how hard crewing a vehicle is in constructed.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
With your version, if I kill all the crewed creatures, the vehicle just sits on the battlefield and never does anything?
That's what vehicles do right now, unless you tap a creature.
I dunno, the current version is simple yes, but lacks flavour/mechanics that make it feel good, which is entirely subjective, I know.
I'm not turned off completely by the idea of vehicles, but at the moment they literally do nothing unless you have a creature to tap in order to make them attack or block. No secondary effects, no real bonuses, nothing. Not even a:
X : Sacrifice this artifact, it deals damage to target player or creature equal to its Crew cost.
With your version, if I kill all the crewed creatures, the vehicle just sits on the battlefield and never does anything?
That's what vehicles do right now, unless you tap a creature.
I dunno, the current version is simple yes, but lacks flavour/mechanics that make it feel good, which is entirely subjective, I know.
I'm not turned off completely by the idea of vehicles, but at the moment they literally do nothing unless you have a creature to tap in order to make them attack or block. No secondary effects, no real bonuses, nothing. Not even a:
X : Sacrifice this artifact, it deals damage to target player or creature equal to its Crew cost.
As opposed to yours, which literally does nothing, ever, whole game, if you cast the vehicle before you cast a creature. And if they respond to you 'crewing' your vehicle by killing your creature your card does nothing. Do you complain that Birds of Paradise can wield a sword? How about that it can wield three swords? And wear a helmet, and boots? Cause that flavor is bad, and yet the simple design of Equip as a mechanic is good.
I would say that's one finely dressed & armed Bird, and I wouldn't pick a fight with her for any amount of money!
Look, I get it. Folks want to tell me how simple the Crew mechanic is and you gotta make sacrifices for flavour when it comes to a limited format like Magic, and I agree with you. Hell no my version wasn't perfect, in fact without a secondary equip cost, it's downright terrible. But it was something closer to function and flavour that better resembled what I feel the vehicle mechanic could have been.
But those are just my opinions mates, you don't have to like 'em or agree with 'em.
I'm not sold on the vehicle mechanic yet, but I sure as hell love the art and potential. Here's hoping its all just hyperbole on my end and the new mechanic ends up being a smash hit!
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Casual | Pauper/Peasant | EDH
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every set is going to be bad for me..
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
I've played since the mid 90s, but as of late I feel like my relationship with MTG has reached a stagnant point where I just kinda go through the motions whenever I care to get involved.
Energy is a interesting mechanic, i have nothing against vehicles (i think its ok), and i dont see the problems with magic clockwork cars in this plane, i mean, giant flying spaceships, robots and artificial intelligent are ok but a no flying or talking magic impulsed car is not?. Another thing i like is how black its not evil, but tragic, and how every color is focused to something about make artifact, even green.
I like Kaladesh.
I have very good vibes about the set, and I'm a natural skeptic. I'm just unclear on vehicles, which can stay dead cards like equipments and might become anecdotal in a set that hypes them, but we have yet so much to see that it's impossible to have a definitive opinion.
Wow, I'm surprised I never noticed that. Are there actually none?
There are male angels.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/planar-chaos/13445-malach-of-the-dawn
In the end, angels dont have a gender, as they dont reproduce sexual, they just represent a gender visually.
An most angels , especially in Magic are female, while a Demon has a default male representation (its classic).
But we still have a handful of male angels, like:
Malach of the Dawn
Gabriel Angelfire
Melesse Spirit
And then theres stuff like:
Paragon of the Amesha
which turns into an Angel and is clearly "male" on the artwork.
And ofcourse all the changelings and Mistform Ultimus.
----
But the classic Angel is represented as female in visual, but they dont really have a "actual" gender as they are magic beings.
Funny enough in the bible an Angel is default male.
----
Magic should print some male angels and female demons.
ITS ABOUT TIME !
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Currently Playing:
Retired
As for the energy counters, I'm a little more torn. I think it's a very flavorful mechanic: Kaladesh is a low-magic world where Aether-fueled technology is used as an alternative to mana-fueled spells, so it makes sense for the game to include an alternative resource to pay for various effects. On the other hand, I agree that it might be confusing, especially for people new to the game, since it's yet another thing that players have to keep track of. I need to see more before I make up my mind, it really depends on how useful the energy counters end up being.
No, seriously, I have evidence that it will be just fine. I played standard while Theros was legal and gods were everywhere. The P/T box on permanents that are not a creature wont present any great difficulty. People don't get super confused in combat by creatures that were tapped to pay for other abilities (mana generation being a prime example), crewing won't change that.
the enemy fast lands have me pumped up for modern. the set feels slow for standard but offers many great new tools for other formants like edh, modern, and possibly legacy. let's just hope aetherworks marvel doesn't turn into an eggs deck.
Honestly, There seems to be somewhat less negative blow-hard-ism this set than usual. Even the trollish title of this thread is intentionally sarcastic. That's a good sign for the set.
Fabricate: for for those who like a choice between good and usually better (getting the guy is usually better). This mechanic feels like it could have been without a keyword. There is nothing wrong with this mechanic, but it is pretty unremarkable.
Vehicles: there are a lot of bold decisions being made here. I agree with others that putting the P/T box on non-creatures that turn into creatures is not a thing to be overdone. It worked in Theros, and I think it works here because of the alternate card face, but they have to be careful doing that kind of thing. Likewise, they have been abusing alternate card faces lately with these, plus the Conspiracy 2 cards, plus the card face changes in BFZ. It's not something they can keep doing forever. As far as actual functionallity, they are pretty much just plonky equipments. It's not that much to write home about. I see nothing wrong with it. Certainly, there are plenty of flavor-fails to be had, but the flavor-wins will beat them out. Casual players will take great pains to win by making Emrakul drive a little car.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Doc? Is that you?? You have to be trolling if you think Saheeli is worse than Tibalt.
The gods were at Mythic. Vehicles are at common. The Gods are creatures at all times unless their ability makes them explicitly makes them not creatures. Vehicles aren't creatures unless their ability is activated and turns them on. Gods aren't a good reference point for vehicles. The two design types work in different ways and serve different functions in the set.
Its worth noting that I don't necessarily disagree with you. I just don't think the gods of Theros provide any evidence for how easy/difficult vehicles are for casual players to grok.
- Manite
Yeah such great early episodes like The Dark, Homelands, Alliances, Urzas Saga (which was too powerful and nearly killed Magic), Mercadian Masques, Prophecy... the comparison really doesn't hold any water. Magic will always be a little bit hit and miss. Maro said it himself: It is better to make something that is adored by many and hated by quite a few people too than something no one really likes, but everyone is meh about. You can't satisfy everyone. I like the direction Kaladesh is going and I liked the whole SOI block (though I was disappointed that investigate wasn't used in EMN anymore). There are quite powerful cards in this set already too and the general flavour is awesome. And in what way have they run out of ideas? As someone who likes new interpretations and effects of the colors, Kaladesh is shaping up to be the most interesting set since Khans for me.
This thread is so much of laugh, but this must the the best one so far.
Okay. They added a whole new resource to the game, expanding the design space. They made a new artifact subtype, very flavorful and rather elegantly designed. Fabricate will be quite skill-intensive to make decisions correctly. The whole friggin' motto of the set is innovation. But they are running out of ideas. Sure, sure.
I really do not get most of you, guys. For me, almost any new set is full of fun and challenges, but this might be because I am purely Limited player. Tarkir block, Shadows over Innistrad block, Magic Origins, these were the best recent draft environments. BFZ was worse, but still OK enough.
People complaining about vehicles: where the HECK do you think this thing would make sense than on "steampunk" world? Problem with machines in lore? Look at original Mirrodin, or even Urza's Saga. Not working P/T confusing to newer players? Might be, but there are more difficult things to grasp, and once you can read, it is not a problem. Don't take people for idiots.
Another priceless gem, really. What arrogance and entitlement! The game is recently quite dictated by flavor, get used to it or find a different game. Or play eternal formats.
...and there will still be people saying this after knowing 1/5 of each set.
Definitely you have, but be prepared to eventually be opposed or even ridiculed.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Crew 1
- When this artifact enters the battlefield you may attach any number of creatures you control to it with a power equal to or greater than it's Crew cost. For as long as it is crewed this vehicle is an artifact creature. Use the power/toughness of the vehicle in place of the crewed creatures' normal statistics.
Something along those lines, anyway. As it stands now the Vehicle type is just fail. Pure epic fail. Terrible mechanics and the flavour is nowhere to be seen.
Everything else about Kaladesh has me excited as hell though, I cannot wait for more and more spoilers!
I'm pretty sure I'm kidding. Like, 85% sure.
"YOU ARE A PLANESWALKER," so let me draw you as one. Check out my art-for-cards trade thread here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1564-you-are-a-planeswalker-and-i-will-draw-you-as
On the whole I'm meh on this set. Kaladesh's technomagic flavor doesn't mesh well many other planes. As with the Battle for Zendikar block, it seems like it's doing its own thing. That's cool, but I prefer interaction with entire card pool over mechanics focused on the specific set. (BFZ mostly gave you the choice of Eldrazi, Allies, or GTFO.)
With your version, if I kill all the crewed creatures, the vehicle just sits on the battlefield and never does anything? FeelsBadMan. I much prefer Wizard's version of Crew. Its simple, mostly flavorful (creatures get in and out of vehicles) and should lead to really good limited gameplay. I suspect Crew will mostly be a constructed miss though. At the moment, the only vehicle that looks constructed playable is the Skyship, and I think people are underestimating how hard crewing a vehicle is in constructed.
- Manite
I dunno, the current version is simple yes, but lacks flavour/mechanics that make it feel good, which is entirely subjective, I know.
I'm not turned off completely by the idea of vehicles, but at the moment they literally do nothing unless you have a creature to tap in order to make them attack or block. No secondary effects, no real bonuses, nothing. Not even a:
X : Sacrifice this artifact, it deals damage to target player or creature equal to its Crew cost.
I would say that's one finely dressed & armed Bird, and I wouldn't pick a fight with her for any amount of money!
Look, I get it. Folks want to tell me how simple the Crew mechanic is and you gotta make sacrifices for flavour when it comes to a limited format like Magic, and I agree with you. Hell no my version wasn't perfect, in fact without a secondary equip cost, it's downright terrible. But it was something closer to function and flavour that better resembled what I feel the vehicle mechanic could have been.
But those are just my opinions mates, you don't have to like 'em or agree with 'em.
I'm not sold on the vehicle mechanic yet, but I sure as hell love the art and potential. Here's hoping its all just hyperbole on my end and the new mechanic ends up being a smash hit!