I am making this thread to discuss the recent trend of making traditionally instant speed effects sorceries. Is it good for the game? Bad for the game? Maybe you just hate it, or are relieved that there are less cards you have to play around at every moment.
I will post my own oppinion below as this is a discussion of the merits of socery speed spells not my oppinion of them.
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While I'm sure we can all agree that sorcery speed represents a major drop in power level, I think it also "dumbs down" the game. I have seen an argument in another thread that making things sorcery speed forces you to decide if you want to play removal or hold open a counter, and while I think there is merit to this argument I don't think this makes decisions harder. For starters sorcery speed makes the game much easier for your opponent as they don't have to consider the tempo implications of many of their decisions and at the very least do not have to time spells and effects properly to avoid blow outs. This means that sequencing and technical plays are not rewarded as I believe they should be in a game of skill. One of the biggest skill factors with counter spells is bluffing them so that your opponent does not play their most powerful spells which you may not even have an answer for. If you are forced to tap out, you cannot bluff effects. I believe bluffing is essential to the skill side of magic and without it the game, especially constructed and sealed, moves closer towards gambling. Wizards has always been very vocal about how magic is a game of skill and not a game of chance so I feel they should be careful not to keep pushing the new player friendly trend (although I would argue that card prices do much much more to deter new players than complexity, Wizards isn't a nonprofit). Finally choosing between sorceries and a counter spell puts you in a situation where you have to properly guess your opponents hand for counter spells to even be playable. Currently the only real player in standard is negate and that is mostly because of color pie restrictions, and how rare planeswalker destruction is.
I will admit that I might be bias as I find sorceries boring to play with and against. I have also in the past played very instant heavy budget decks at FNM as a way to beat less experienced players who bought teir decks and am frustrated that I got little to no toys. Instant speed spells can be as good as soceries with raw power with the right timing, but now I feel forced to Pay to win.
For context their are 28 instants in this set and 27 sorceries, so my real issue is with traditionally instant speed effects like cancel being bumped down to sorcery speed.
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For limited its better to have a set bunch of instants so you can actually play around specific cards.
If you have too many instants, you would have to play around tons and tons of cards, which makes it overall less usefull to play around cards.
That said, it also speeds up the game. If people can just sit with open mana, the opponent will think longer and "try" to play around stuff that might just not exist anyway. The game becomes faster if you know what instants actually exist in the format.
In terms of constructed instants are traditional allways WAY superior to sorcery speed cards, especially on removal and removal is the kind of cards that WotC trys to balance more and give it more variaty, so its also important to make a lot of them sorcery speed, so you can have instant versions of them aswell (which then would cost more).
So a traditional strong instant speed card would be balanced as sorcery speed for the same cost. The other version would be to make it more expensive (like +1 colorless) and make it still an instant, so thats the tradeof.
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For older formats that suxx ofcourse, but nearly all these sorcery speed "reprints" dont matter in older formats anyway , so they are allmost all limited cards and still pretty good at sorcery.
While I'm sure we can all agree that sorcery speed represents a major drop in power level, I think it also "dumbs down" the game. I have seen an argument in another thread that making things sorcery speed forces you to decide if you want to play removal or hold open a counter, and while I think there is merit to this argument I don't think this makes decisions harder. For starters sorcery speed makes the game much easier for your opponent as they don't have to consider the tempo implications of many of their decisions and at the very least do not have to time spells and effects properly to avoid blow outs. This means that sequencing and technical plays are not rewarded as I believe they should be in a game of skill. One of the biggest skill factors with counter spells is bluffing them so that your opponent does not play their most powerful spells which you may not even have an answer for. If you are forced to tap out, you cannot bluff effects. I believe bluffing is essential to the skill side of magic and without it the game, especially constructed and sealed, moves closer towards gambling. Wizards has always been very vocal about how magic is a game of skill and not a game of chance so I feel they should be careful not to keep pushing the new player friendly trend (although I would argue that card prices do much much more to deter new players than complexity, Wizards isn't a nonprofit). Finally choosing between sorceries and a counter spell puts you in a situation where you have to properly guess your opponents hand for counter spells to even be playable. Currently the only real player in standard is negate and that is mostly because of color pie restrictions, and how rare planeswalker destruction is.
I will admit that I might be bias as I find sorceries boring to play with and against. I have also in the past played very instant heavy budget decks at FNM as a way to beat less experienced players who bought teir decks and am frustrated that I got little to no toys. Instant speed spells can be as good as soceries with raw power with the right timing, but now I feel forced to Pay to win.
For context their are 28 instants in this set and 27 sorceries, so my real issue is with traditionally instant speed effects like cancel being bumped down to sorcery speed.
There are still plenty of instants in this set/block, there just isn't a ton instant removal but that mostly affects limited, constructed finds the best removal spells and sticks with them.
Counter magic hasn't been a thing for ages, not sure why you focus so much on it. Bluffing is mightly overrated a skill in MTG, any competent player knows, make your opponent have it.
Sequencing plays is always important, instant or not.
I have been playing this game since Revised came out, with a hiatus for a while after urzas saga because it became too expensive to play as a teenager, but always liked sorceries, but for a reason. They were more powerful than instants, with a few exceptions like lightning bolt. I think they need to get back to that, and I think they are. declaration in stone is really good for 2 cmc, but if they wanted to make an instant version, make it cost 3-4. the reason people hate sorcery speed is because instant speed has been so good it makes sorceries obsolete. I'm fine with it, but lets make it actually balanced. a 1 mana bolt that is sorcery is not broken, just really good. however at instant speed, well we already know. lightning bolt has been an auto 4 of in every red deck it can be in since the game was invented. that's not good for the game, as much as I love the card. the real problem right now is that there is so many ways to flash in creatures, from CoCo, to madness, to well; flash. when creatures are at instant speed, and instants are at sorcery speed, that's also bad for the game. it creates inbalance in favor of the colors that can most effectively flash in creatures. plus sorceries should simply cost less than instants. sorcery speed is a major drawback compared to instant speed, so throw it a bone. people would be fine with ruinous path at 2, and murder at 3. that's fair, that's balanced
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I too, find the increase in the amount of sorceries over instants annoying. I don't really have an opinion as to whether sorceries are more skill intensive than instants, but my favorite concept about magic is the stack, and as instants gets neglected, so does stack interaction :/
Yeah. No point in playing Instants when you have cards like Spell Queller -_-
I agree with all the above. Sorceries should cost less because most of the time you tapping out for a sorcery doesn't increase your tempo (Roil Spout is probably one of the best sorcery speed cards that you don't fall behind when using).
Nothing like tapping three to Ruinous Path Gideon, only to have your opponent play another one on their turn -_-
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obviously because blue and red are so incredibly overpowered already they need to put a brake on them being viable before it gets out of hand
overpowered?? More than G/W lol
I haven't seen a lightning Bolt in how long.....
I get the feeling he was being sarcastic, but if not, I don't get it either. maybe its the idea that delver, twin, and burn were staples of modern for a long time (some still are). maybe it was the standard devotion decks? blue and black devotion were really strong and GR devotion was good too. but since abzan spoiled it first card in khans, wizards hasn't even been trying to hide its blatant pushing of GW. Abzan is now just Bant, or it appears that's what they were going for. even 4c good stuff decks where mostly just abzan splashing x. their was jeskai black, so a little different, but still featured the most powerful current color.
they are pushing creatures very hard at the moment - though I'm not sure how keen I am that instants should become flash creatures.
>> I also think as mentioned earlier that instants make your opponent think before taking unsafe risks in a turn
>> it is bad enough that the few good instants are very expensive mythics etc... but it would be nice if they at least reprinted some of the old stuff when creature decks are basically blitzing everyone else as well being given most of the strongest removal etc... just bored of whites complete lack of weakness
Oh I didn't mean instants should become flash creatures, I meant it seems like they have. I should be more clear, that was confusing looking. I just think they are making normal instants into sorceries and things that are normally just creatures into flash creatures.
I noticed this as well. Possible reasons that come to mind:
-There's a higher than average amount of flash creatures in the set, many with ETB effects.
-They wanted to make slightly more difficult in limited and block for opponents to mess up werewolves' transformation triggers.
-Kaladesh will have a high number of instants for some reason and they wanted to balance across future Standard.
We are talking here of professionals with decades of experience. While as humans they can make mistakes, it's much more likely that there's a method and reasons whenever we see something that looks like madness of foolishness.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
While it may be wishful thinking on my part, I think that the prevalence of sorceries is because of delirium and will stop being a thing by the next block...
While it may be wishful thinking on my part, I think that the prevalence of sorceries is because of delirium and will stop being a thing by the next block...
This is actually pretty likely (I hope). It would definitely explain Lunar Force.
There are still plenty of instants in this set/block, there just isn't a ton instant removal but that mostly affects limited, constructed finds the best removal spells and sticks with them.
Counter magic hasn't been a thing for ages, not sure why you focus so much on it. Bluffing is mightly overrated a skill in MTG, any competent player knows, make your opponent have it.
Sequencing plays is always important, instant or not.
Should we play with our hands splayed out on the table? If bluffing was overrated, wouldnt matter.
Well this is a set with Madness, there's a lot less sorcery speed than what the count would initially lead you to believe, especially because Madness shows up on creatures as well.
There are still plenty of instants in this set/block, there just isn't a ton instant removal but that mostly affects limited, constructed finds the best removal spells and sticks with them.
Counter magic hasn't been a thing for ages, not sure why you focus so much on it. Bluffing is mightly overrated a skill in MTG, any competent player knows, make your opponent have it.
Sequencing plays is always important, instant or not.
Should we play with our hands splayed out on the table? If bluffing was overrated, wouldnt matter.
It matters early on in a match, just not a ton and it's value diminshes as the match progresses. If I have a clear cut best play and you are bluffing having an answer I will make that play most of the time.
Although I should have said this probably more of a thing in Limited, I don't play much Constructed these days. That was an oversight on my part.
Sorceries lead to more depth in gameplay in forcing the active player to weigh more options.
It, broadly speaking of course, benefits the better players since they generally are more astute in assessing the board and game state.
not always.
actually, having both is important.
instants make you weigh more options in some situations while being a sorcery achieves that in others.
for example, if everything is sorcery speed, then the decision to attack or not attack becomes A LOT simpler for the active player.
there's no such thing as "Sorceries dumb the game down" or "instants dumb the game down", they're both parts of the game, and both should be represented.
still, making "Strictly worse" spells by changing it from instant to sorcery tends to be frustrating, unless the spell is blatantly overpowered.
I'd imagine no one would be complaining about lack of power if they printed Swords to Plowshares as a sorcery.
Bluffing among better players is real. Makes the game more poker like sure but when it comes to people thinking about what the other guy could be thinking in game there's definite merit to bluffing. Bluffing is not remotely clear cut in limited or constructed. The play of make them have it is likely the move of a desperate man who doesn't like his odds the longer the game goes. You could probably write an entire article on the art of bluffing.
As for sorceries, eh probably delirium same reason for that really crappy 3 mana hesitation card, which when I saw I cringed so much as hesitation was already bad enough at 1U but 2U is just unplayable in all the scenarios despite it triggering on just opponents spells versus any spells.
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The only point to lunar force is to be a delirium enabler in blue. Of there is going to be a delirium deck that runs blue it will likely be part of it.
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I will post my own oppinion below as this is a discussion of the merits of socery speed spells not my oppinion of them.
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It, broadly speaking of course, benefits the better players since they generally are more astute in assessing the board and game state.
I will admit that I might be bias as I find sorceries boring to play with and against. I have also in the past played very instant heavy budget decks at FNM as a way to beat less experienced players who bought teir decks and am frustrated that I got little to no toys. Instant speed spells can be as good as soceries with raw power with the right timing, but now I feel forced to Pay to win.
For context their are 28 instants in this set and 27 sorceries, so my real issue is with traditionally instant speed effects like cancel being bumped down to sorcery speed.
If you have too many instants, you would have to play around tons and tons of cards, which makes it overall less usefull to play around cards.
That said, it also speeds up the game. If people can just sit with open mana, the opponent will think longer and "try" to play around stuff that might just not exist anyway. The game becomes faster if you know what instants actually exist in the format.
In terms of constructed instants are traditional allways WAY superior to sorcery speed cards, especially on removal and removal is the kind of cards that WotC trys to balance more and give it more variaty, so its also important to make a lot of them sorcery speed, so you can have instant versions of them aswell (which then would cost more).
So a traditional strong instant speed card would be balanced as sorcery speed for the same cost. The other version would be to make it more expensive (like +1 colorless) and make it still an instant, so thats the tradeof.
----
For older formats that suxx ofcourse, but nearly all these sorcery speed "reprints" dont matter in older formats anyway , so they are allmost all limited cards and still pretty good at sorcery.
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There are still plenty of instants in this set/block, there just isn't a ton instant removal but that mostly affects limited, constructed finds the best removal spells and sticks with them.
Counter magic hasn't been a thing for ages, not sure why you focus so much on it. Bluffing is mightly overrated a skill in MTG, any competent player knows, make your opponent have it.
Sequencing plays is always important, instant or not.
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overpowered?? More than G/W lol
I haven't seen a lightning Bolt in how long.....
I agree with all the above. Sorceries should cost less because most of the time you tapping out for a sorcery doesn't increase your tempo (Roil Spout is probably one of the best sorcery speed cards that you don't fall behind when using).
Nothing like tapping three to Ruinous Path Gideon, only to have your opponent play another one on their turn -_-
I get the feeling he was being sarcastic, but if not, I don't get it either. maybe its the idea that delver, twin, and burn were staples of modern for a long time (some still are). maybe it was the standard devotion decks? blue and black devotion were really strong and GR devotion was good too. but since abzan spoiled it first card in khans, wizards hasn't even been trying to hide its blatant pushing of GW. Abzan is now just Bant, or it appears that's what they were going for. even 4c good stuff decks where mostly just abzan splashing x. their was jeskai black, so a little different, but still featured the most powerful current color.
Oh I didn't mean instants should become flash creatures, I meant it seems like they have. I should be more clear, that was confusing looking. I just think they are making normal instants into sorceries and things that are normally just creatures into flash creatures.
-There's a higher than average amount of flash creatures in the set, many with ETB effects.
-They wanted to make slightly more difficult in limited and block for opponents to mess up werewolves' transformation triggers.
-Kaladesh will have a high number of instants for some reason and they wanted to balance across future Standard.
We are talking here of professionals with decades of experience. While as humans they can make mistakes, it's much more likely that there's a method and reasons whenever we see something that looks like madness of foolishness.
This is actually pretty likely (I hope). It would definitely explain Lunar Force.
Should we play with our hands splayed out on the table? If bluffing was overrated, wouldnt matter.
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It matters early on in a match, just not a ton and it's value diminshes as the match progresses. If I have a clear cut best play and you are bluffing having an answer I will make that play most of the time.
Although I should have said this probably more of a thing in Limited, I don't play much Constructed these days. That was an oversight on my part.
not always.
actually, having both is important.
instants make you weigh more options in some situations while being a sorcery achieves that in others.
for example, if everything is sorcery speed, then the decision to attack or not attack becomes A LOT simpler for the active player.
there's no such thing as "Sorceries dumb the game down" or "instants dumb the game down", they're both parts of the game, and both should be represented.
still, making "Strictly worse" spells by changing it from instant to sorcery tends to be frustrating, unless the spell is blatantly overpowered.
I'd imagine no one would be complaining about lack of power if they printed Swords to Plowshares as a sorcery.
As for sorceries, eh probably delirium same reason for that really crappy 3 mana hesitation card, which when I saw I cringed so much as hesitation was already bad enough at 1U but 2U is just unplayable in all the scenarios despite it triggering on just opponents spells versus any spells.
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