+1: Up to one target creature gets -2/-1 until your next turn
-2: Put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard, then you may return a creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
-7: You get an emblem with "At the beginning of your end step, put X 2/2 black zombie creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is two plus the number of zombies you control."
[3]
Figured I'd start this thread because there isn't one already. Just in case anyone wants to discuss. I'm a little surprised there isn't already one.
I'll start:
I think she's good. Problem is that in any non-Standard, non-Limited format she competes directly with LotV and most of the time, not all, if you are considering Last Hope then you would probably be better off with LotV.
In Standard, I see the making of a really solid G/B Rock deck as long as black gets some decent removal. I see Lili and Ob being at the core of that. Could be good.
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+1: Up to one target creature gets -2/-1 until your next turn
-2: Put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard, then you may return a creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
-7: You get an emblem with "At the beginning of your end step, put X 2/2 black zombie creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is two plus the number of zombies you control."
[3]
Figured I'd start this thread because there isn't one already. Just in case anyone wants to discuss. I'm a little surprised there isn't already one.
I'll start:
I think she's good. Problem is that in any non-Standard, non-Limited format she competes directly with LotV and most of the time, not all, if you are considering Last Hope then you would probably be better off with LotV.
In Standard, I see the making of a really solid G/B Rock deck as long as black gets some decent removal. I see Lili and Ob being at the core of that. Could be good.
Agreed, Advocate, Grim Flayer, Maybe Gnarlwood Dryad, Mindwrack demon. They all seem pretty good together.
In an environment where her +1 actually kills stuff pretty regularly then she looks very appealing. Clearly that's not Standard at the moment, but maybe it could be eventually. Actually might be more regular targets in Modern, although she could just be too slow there.
Outside of that then I generally agree with you, probably playable in a midrangy Rock style deck, where her +1 kills stuff or lets your Advocates/Trackers/Recruiters/etc win early combats, and then her -2 combines with those types of efficient value-oriented green creatures to win the attrition game. Of course there is a lot of competition for slots in those goodstuff decks, so hard to tell without playtesting if she is worthy. Having more payoffs for filling up the yard would help some, with Grim Flayer being the most obvious candidate.
As a side note, her +1 is pretty good against Hangarback Walker, and if Thopters become a thing in Kaladesh standard, Lili could be the way to beat them.
I'll put it this way: If I'm playing a midrange mirror in Modern, I want this over veil, as my opponent's deck is likely full of ways to get around Veil's +1 and/or just straight beat her. This Liliana puts in some massive work in grindy games. I actually think this card might be what it takes for UBx Midrange decks to start making bigger waves in modern. The -2 is just hard value over the course of the game, and K-command has shown that a 3 CMC raise dead with other upsides is potentially extremely playable. The fact that all this utility comes on a planeswalker with an ult that does what all planeswalker ults should do, win you the game, is just insane. LotV's ult doesn't even win you the game on the spot, and sometimes can be actively terrible, just like her +1.
I'm not saying either is objectively better; I'm actually of the opinion that they are relatively similar in power, and I'm going to for sure be picking up some to test with, as I've always wanted to build a Grixis or Sultai colored version of Jund.(I like blue a lot)
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Standard
Meh
Modern BUWEsper ControlWUB BRUGrixis DelverURB WRBGKiki ChordGBRW WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW BRGJundGRB
I agree this is stronger in modern or even legacy with the increased number of x/1s running around. Against something like elves or death and taxes this thing is a beating removing 2 creatures per turn. Not that it will probably ever see tons of play, but if my field was full of those types of decks and I'm running black might not be totally off my radar.
I think this Lili does have more targets in Modern than Standard but I honestly struggle to think of any regularly played target. She hits Bob, Pyromancer & tokens, V. Clique, Signal Pest, Vault Skirge, and that's like it? That's nowhere near good enough compared to LotV. I want her to be good because I like her -2 more than LotV's +1 but the problem is that LotV's best ability is her -2 and LtLH's +1 just cannot stack up. Part of what makes LotV so good is that you can use her to wreck board states against decks like Affinity, Merfolk, and Bogles. LtLH can't do that.
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How does lili wreck affinity and merfolk's board state? Bogles I get, they usually have one creature out and lotv is game over, but I've played a gainst affinity and merfolk very regularly for a long time and in my experience the only way to win against them is to get constant 2-for-1s, which liliana of the veil is not.
As far as x/1s in modern:
Delver, Pyro and tokens, Mentor tokens, Vault Skirge, Memnite, Signal Pest, Dark Confidant, persisted Finks(Very relevant in game 1's), Viscera Seer, Eternal Witness, Snapcaster Mage, Every relevant card in elves, every modern-playable mana dork besides Caryatid(fringe). That's what I can think off the top of my head that it just kills straight up. It can also reduce a lot of creatures to 0 power, also very relevant for a deck looking to grind out games, and very relevant for keeping her protected to get value off her. Her+bolt can take care of anything that manages to get just out of bolt range, she can help tasigur swing through a goyf, she can un-flip your opponent's delvers, and on a stalled board state where all your outs are "snapcaster+x then swing with snapcaster" she is just faceloads of value. Veil's -2 is also that: a minus ability. Once you minus, she's at 1 loyalty and vulnerable unless you hit your opponent's only creature.
This is all of course assuming that is part of your deck's game plan, which, like I said, something like Sultai or Grixis midrange is in the market for a walker at this cmc that does these things.
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Standard
Meh
Modern BUWEsper ControlWUB BRUGrixis DelverURB WRBGKiki ChordGBRW WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW BRGJundGRB
I'm excited for her, I hope people think shes terrible so I can pick her up for cheap ASAP. I get a feeling deep down that shes going to see play somewhere and wherever she sees play I'm definitely gonna try and play her.
She might not wind up being great anywhere but I'm very interested in trying her out in a Grixis deck in Modern. Very interested.
Add Infect to the list of Modern decks that she does serious work against. She kills all three of the creatures they typically run: Elf/Agent/Hierarch. Basically leaves them with Inkmoth as their only way to get the kill. Although on the draw she could be too slow if they have one of their own nut draws.
I have already playtested the card. To me she seems best in kinda Aggro Dex. +1 has so many implications. in the best case, it kills stuff. If not, weaken a creature. Thats great when a bigger blocker is Standing in your attackers way. You can now swing safely. & you dont have to worry that the weakened Creature attacks back, since this ability is active for 2 turns. Was great in Aggro & her first Protection.
-2 Maintaining steady gas is important for Aggro & this does the Job. Keep getting back your creatures was Awesome, especially since +1 kinda protects her to make it easier to repeat -2.
-7 didnt get to activate, but steady creature streams is another Thing Aggro wants.
The Power in Liliana is there ! Only findin the perfect Deck is the question.
I think she is good. I like the argument about bringing things into bolt range. That's kind of cool. Its kind of a 2-for-1 but not really. Also, I like the comparison to Jace, Architect of Thought. I think at the very least she is comparible enough to LotV to be a suitable "budget" replacement in Modern. In Standard I think she'll see play, and help enable, the Rock archetype.
I have already playtested the card. To me she seems best in kinda Aggro Dex. +1 has so many implications. in the best case, it kills stuff. If not, weaken a creature. Thats great when a bigger blocker is Standing in your attackers way. You can now swing safely. & you dont have to worry that the weakened Creature attacks back, since this ability is active for 2 turns. Was great in Aggro & her first Protection.
-2 Maintaining steady gas is important for Aggro & this does the Job. Keep getting back your creatures was Awesome, especially since +1 kinda protects her to make it easier to repeat -2.
-7 didnt get to activate, but steady creature streams is another Thing Aggro wants.
The Power in Liliana is there ! Only findin the perfect Deck is the question.
This is an interesting evaluation.
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Figured I'd start this thread because there isn't one already. Just in case anyone wants to discuss. I'm a little surprised there isn't already one.
I'll start:
I think she's good. Problem is that in any non-Standard, non-Limited format she competes directly with LotV and most of the time, not all, if you are considering Last Hope then you would probably be better off with LotV.
In Standard, I see the making of a really solid G/B Rock deck as long as black gets some decent removal. I see Lili and Ob being at the core of that. Could be good.
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Agreed, Advocate, Grim Flayer, Maybe Gnarlwood Dryad, Mindwrack demon. They all seem pretty good together.
Outside of that then I generally agree with you, probably playable in a midrangy Rock style deck, where her +1 kills stuff or lets your Advocates/Trackers/Recruiters/etc win early combats, and then her -2 combines with those types of efficient value-oriented green creatures to win the attrition game. Of course there is a lot of competition for slots in those goodstuff decks, so hard to tell without playtesting if she is worthy. Having more payoffs for filling up the yard would help some, with Grim Flayer being the most obvious candidate.
I'm not saying either is objectively better; I'm actually of the opinion that they are relatively similar in power, and I'm going to for sure be picking up some to test with, as I've always wanted to build a Grixis or Sultai colored version of Jund.(I like blue a lot)
Meh
Modern
BUWEsper ControlWUB
BRUGrixis DelverURB
WRBGKiki ChordGBRW
WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW
BRGJundGRB
Legacy
UBRGrixis DelverRBU
Commander
Also meh
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As far as x/1s in modern:
Delver, Pyro and tokens, Mentor tokens, Vault Skirge, Memnite, Signal Pest, Dark Confidant, persisted Finks(Very relevant in game 1's), Viscera Seer, Eternal Witness, Snapcaster Mage, Every relevant card in elves, every modern-playable mana dork besides Caryatid(fringe). That's what I can think off the top of my head that it just kills straight up. It can also reduce a lot of creatures to 0 power, also very relevant for a deck looking to grind out games, and very relevant for keeping her protected to get value off her. Her+bolt can take care of anything that manages to get just out of bolt range, she can help tasigur swing through a goyf, she can un-flip your opponent's delvers, and on a stalled board state where all your outs are "snapcaster+x then swing with snapcaster" she is just faceloads of value. Veil's -2 is also that: a minus ability. Once you minus, she's at 1 loyalty and vulnerable unless you hit your opponent's only creature.
This is all of course assuming that is part of your deck's game plan, which, like I said, something like Sultai or Grixis midrange is in the market for a walker at this cmc that does these things.
Meh
Modern
BUWEsper ControlWUB
BRUGrixis DelverURB
WRBGKiki ChordGBRW
WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW
BRGJundGRB
Legacy
UBRGrixis DelverRBU
Commander
Also meh
She might not wind up being great anywhere but I'm very interested in trying her out in a Grixis deck in Modern. Very interested.
I can get behind this and there's seems to be a group of people who are mad she's not the next coming Lili of the Veil.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
-2 Maintaining steady gas is important for Aggro & this does the Job. Keep getting back your creatures was Awesome, especially since +1 kinda protects her to make it easier to repeat -2.
-7 didnt get to activate, but steady creature streams is another Thing Aggro wants.
The Power in Liliana is there ! Only findin the perfect Deck is the question.
This is an interesting evaluation.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097