I understand. In every other set since mythic rares, every mythic rare has been one everyone really wanted. Right? Cause if every other set had the same basic thing, that not every mythic is good, just like not every rare is good, then it shouldn't be a surprise that this is in here too.
This set has a lot more high priced cards than a typical set, that is why it is $10 a pack, that and of course because wizards CAN charge 10, and if you CAN charge more, why not? But the value comes from the AVERAGE pack, not a given specific CRAPPY pack.
Generally, from what I've seen, and understand about marketing, they pretty much have to try and keep the average pack value to at or below MSRP. It has potential negative effects to the game and market to release new product with an expected value higher than what you are paying for it.
Sorry. It sucks. I've been playing magic for long enough to remember opening Rare Islands... so yeah... I don't feel particularly bad about most complaints I read now about crappy packs someone opens. Sorry, but that is the game. If you don't want to risk opening crappy packs, don't buy pack and just buy the cards you want. Generally that is cheaper anyway.
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I basically only play EDH:
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
Not to mention that Worldgorger Dragon is exactly the kind of card WotC explicitly implemented mythic rarity for.
How so? Especially in a set like this.
In the beginning, the Mythic rarity was originally intended for big flashy cards that did big flashy things, or legendary cards that were significant to the plot. It was explicitly not intended to be for tournament staples and money cards; it's become that way over the course of time.
Not to mention that Worldgorger Dragon is exactly the kind of card WotC explicitly implemented mythic rarity for.
How so? Especially in a set like this.
In the beginning, the Mythic rarity was originally intended for big flashy cards that did big flashy things, or legendary cards that were significant to the plot. It was explicitly not intended to be for tournament staples and money cards; it's become that way over the course of time.
It became that way in the second block after mythic rarity was implemented with Lotus Cobra. Nobody with sense believed them for a second when they said mythic was only for big flashy epic cards and not tournament staples.
Honestly, Worldgorger Dragon DOES feel kind of mythic to me in the same way that we always get those above the curve (P/T wise) mythic rare demons that have some kind of wonky "drawback" that sometimes is and sometimes is negative and sometimes benefits you.
Still feel like it should have stayed at rare in this kind of set. Along with other cards like Force of Will. Are you really going to try to tell me that a "counter target spell" card is that epic? The only think epic about that card is the price and that's exactly why Wizards made it mythic. Thanks Wizards.
Honestly, Worldgorger Dragon DOES feel kind of mythic to me in the same way that we always get those above the curve (P/T wise) mythic rare demons that have some kind of wonky "drawback" that sometimes is and sometimes is negative and sometimes benefits you.
Still feel like it should have stayed at rare in this kind of set. Along with other cards like Force of Will. Are you really going to try to tell me that a "counter target spell" card is that epic? The only think epic about that card is the price and that's exactly why Wizards made it mythic. Thanks Wizards.
Definitely agree. FoW is not an epic card. Vampiric Tutor isn't very epic either. Most of the mythic in this set are just high value cards. FoW at uncommon wouldn't break limited anymore than counter spell at common will. Vampiric Tutor at rare would be the same as all the other recent tutor effects that were at rare.
I actually want to see a deck with worldgorger that is designed to make the game a draw as fast as possible i.e. most consistent deck with t1-t2 draws.
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712.5b The controller of another player can't make choices or decisions for that player that aren't called for by the rules or by any objects. The controller also can't make any choices or decisions for the player that would be called for by the tournament rules.
Example: The player who's being controlled still chooses whether he or she leaves to visit the restroom, trades a card to someone else, agrees to an intentional draw, or calls a judge about an error or infraction.
It's amusing to me when people are really upset when a card that has seen some Legacy play in its life shows up in a set like this. Yep, its not a valuable card granted but *****ing about this card is like *****ing about a random rare in a regular set that sees some play but is bulk value.
Attacking a card like Control Magic I can understand more, but hey at least that card got its first foiling ever so its worth a lot in foil.
Meh, that's the point of packs. There need to be duds. If there weren't then either the value of the set as a whole would tank, or packs would start selling at $50 each instead of $10. Just think about it for a minute. The value of the pack and the set as a whole are tightly linked based on the EV that you can expect to get from opening a large amount of product. If the EV goes too high, pack prices go up. if EV goes too low, they stop selling and pack prices go down. If WOTC wants to see things move at MSRP while maintaining powerful cards in a set. It just means that the cooler the things they want to print either: the more, and worse duds they have to throw in. to balance it out; They raise MSRP to match; or a combination of the 2.
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Meh, that's the point of packs. There need to be duds. If there weren't then either the value of the set as a whole would tank, or packs would start selling at $50 each instead of $10. Just think about it for a minute. The value of the pack and the set as a whole are tightly linked based on the EV that you can expect to get from opening a large amount of product. If the EV goes too high, pack prices go up. if EV goes too low, they stop selling and pack prices go down. If WOTC wants to see things move at MSRP while maintaining powerful cards in a set. It just means that the cooler the things they want to print either: the more, and worse duds they have to throw in. to balance it out; They raise MSRP to match; or a combination of the 2.
This is generally true, but for a set with a limited print run prices tend to go toward the "too high" more than the "too low".
Meh, that's the point of packs. There need to be duds. If there weren't then either the value of the set as a whole would tank, or packs would start selling at $50 each instead of $10. Just think about it for a minute. The value of the pack and the set as a whole are tightly linked based on the EV that you can expect to get from opening a large amount of product. If the EV goes too high, pack prices go up. if EV goes too low, they stop selling and pack prices go down. If WOTC wants to see things move at MSRP while maintaining powerful cards in a set. It just means that the cooler the things they want to print either: the more, and worse duds they have to throw in. to balance it out; They raise MSRP to match; or a combination of the 2.
Except the EV of Eternal Masters is already well below MSRP. MTGGoldfish puts the EV of a pack at $8.34 based on SCG singles prices and the SCG price of an EMA booster is $15. Not only that, but this is heavily weighted toward a small handful of very valuable rares and mythics. Clearly many factors go in to the price of a booster, and not just robotic assessment of expected values (which is pretty stupid to begin with, since you'd be better off just buying what you need in the first place rather than gambling and wasting your time selling/trading if your "expected value" is less than or equal to the pack price)
Meh, that's the point of packs. There need to be duds. If there weren't then either the value of the set as a whole would tank, or packs would start selling at $50 each instead of $10. Just think about it for a minute. The value of the pack and the set as a whole are tightly linked based on the EV that you can expect to get from opening a large amount of product. If the EV goes too high, pack prices go up. if EV goes too low, they stop selling and pack prices go down. If WOTC wants to see things move at MSRP while maintaining powerful cards in a set. It just means that the cooler the things they want to print either: the more, and worse duds they have to throw in. to balance it out; They raise MSRP to match; or a combination of the 2.
Or they could print the set at levels that aren't embarrassingly low, especially for a 3rd try at a Masters set. Packs are $15, and I don't know about you, but getting $2 Worldgorger Dragon for $15 feels a hell of a lot worse than a $1 card from a $4 pack. At least that $1 card from Standard could potentially be worth something when other sets come out, but we know that Worldgorger Dragon is only ever going to see play with a specific combo. Packs are $15 not because of the value, as the EV is about $8, but because this set is printed at around MM1 levels. There is no reason they should have gone backwards in the print run for Eternal Masters. Had the print run been at MM2 not only would card prices been lower still, but the packs wouldn't be 50% higher almost everywhere. The only reason EMA is like this because plenty of these cards are on their own little special list, like a semi-Reserved List. Wizards treats these cards almost like the ones on the actual RL, where they fear the price dropping on these cards because of some "special" feeling they have for them. It is getting tiring when Wizards are not improving the formula.
People keep saying they will have to include more duds to even out the awesome stuff, but when $10 packs are involved there really shouldn't be "duds". Sure not all rares will get you the value of your pack, but I shouldn't feel like opening up the pack was a bad decision. I should be like "Eh, not all are winners" not "God I'm stupid for getting this."
A lot of that also has to do with temporary value loss because the market is full of the cards right now though. I'm still perfectly happy to open vindicates, argothian enchantresses, sinkholes, enlightened tutors, deathrite shamans... etc. Their value will increase again quick enough. EV on pack is generally stable at 20% under the pack price. When EV is at pack price or over is when things get crazy. Worldgorger is even playable, which is pretty cool. Even the non-value card in the set are fun and playable, so I'll always call that a win.
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Remember: There's someone out there somewhere that pulled a foil Archangel's Light. That guy still sobs himself to sleep every night.
Even still, I'd rather have a foil Worldgorger Dragon rather than no foil at all.
Men... you're talking about me... I was one of those poor guy that pulls a foil archangel ligth... well, i opened a foil dragon lord atarka, so is not always bad
A lot of that also has to do with temporary value loss because the market is full of the cards right now though. I'm still perfectly happy to open vindicates, argothian enchantresses, sinkholes, enlightened tutors, deathrite shamans... etc. Their value will increase again quick enough. EV on pack is generally stable at 20% under the pack price. When EV is at pack price or over is when things get crazy. Worldgorger is even playable, which is pretty cool. Even the non-value card in the set are fun and playable, so I'll always call that a win.
a) None of those cards you listed lost significant value since EMA. A couple bucks for Sinkhole, otherwise they're all pretty stable.
b) The EV is currently 55% of the going rate for packs, and 83% of MSRP. Clearly EV isn't as important as you think it is. That so many people give so much credence to this silly concept of EV is some Microeconomics 101, fantasyland, simpleminded, Grade-A BS.
c) Worldgorger is not playable. It is part of a single easily disrupted degenerate all-or-nothing combo, otherwise it's a pretty awful card.
Pacifism is super great to play against in limited. They cast it, you pacifism it, they lose on the spot. Should it be mythic? Not remotely. Such a crap card in legacy and vintage nowadays since it is one of the most fragile combos in the world and if you're going graveyard based combo you're better off with dredge or normal reanimator. Or oath.
At least the foil is $15 on SCG, but eh. Doesn't really matter as all the other foil mythics are far more desirable than foil WGD.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Meh, that's the point of packs. There need to be duds. If there weren't then either the value of the set as a whole would tank, or packs would start selling at $50 each instead of $10. Just think about it for a minute. The value of the pack and the set as a whole are tightly linked based on the EV that you can expect to get from opening a large amount of product. If the EV goes too high, pack prices go up. if EV goes too low, they stop selling and pack prices go down. If WOTC wants to see things move at MSRP while maintaining powerful cards in a set. It just means that the cooler the things they want to print either: the more, and worse duds they have to throw in. to balance it out; They raise MSRP to match; or a combination of the 2.
Except the EV of Eternal Masters is already well below MSRP. MTGGoldfish puts the EV of a pack at $8.34 based on SCG singles prices and the SCG price of an EMA booster is $15. Not only that, but this is heavily weighted toward a small handful of very valuable rares and mythics. Clearly many factors go in to the price of a booster, and not just robotic assessment of expected values (which is pretty stupid to begin with, since you'd be better off just buying what you need in the first place rather than gambling and wasting your time selling/trading if your "expected value" is less than or equal to the pack price)
The goldfish article mentioned has an EV of $8.34 IF you tried to immediately turn around and sell everything for buylist prices.
If you're going by retail pricing, it's closer to $260 / box, or almost $11. Plus you can easily find boxes online for $260-$270, or about $11 / pack.
Your argument about the value being weighted toward a small handful of rares/mythics is simply incorrect. The very same Goldfish article you reference applauds Wizards for spreading the value out.
You are right about buying boxes is a losing proposition in the long run. You're far better off just buying singles and pinpointing exactly what you want/need. Personally, I like doing sealed and draft, so there is an intangible value I gain from packs that you cannot get from buying singles.
A lot of that also has to do with temporary value loss because the market is full of the cards right now though. I'm still perfectly happy to open vindicates, argothian enchantresses, sinkholes, enlightened tutors, deathrite shamans... etc. Their value will increase again quick enough. EV on pack is generally stable at 20% under the pack price. When EV is at pack price or over is when things get crazy. Worldgorger is even playable, which is pretty cool. Even the non-value card in the set are fun and playable, so I'll always call that a win.
a) None of those cards you listed lost significant value since EMA. A couple bucks for Sinkhole, otherwise they're all pretty stable.
b) The EV is currently 55% of the going rate for packs, and 83% of MSRP. Clearly EV isn't as important as you think it is. That so many people give so much credence to this silly concept of EV is some Microeconomics 101, fantasyland, simpleminded, Grade-A BS.
c) Worldgorger is not playable. It is part of a single easily disrupted degenerate all-or-nothing combo, otherwise it's a pretty awful card.
Give VeritoAnimus a break. He's happy with what he got. There is no need to anger and frustrate him for your agenda.
You should go back and recheck your calculations on EV. You are basing it on data points that you have put together that are deliberately misleading. You are using $8.34 EV even though that is specifically buylist pricing. $15 / pack is ridiculous as you can find it for $100 / box less in several other places. On your second point of EV - it is important. We've seen it time and again with these limited run sets. If the EV is significantly higher than MSRP, what do the retailers do? They jack up the price. We saw it clearly with MM1 where MSRP was $7 and they were quickly being sold for $10/$11 pack. We're seeing it a bit here with EMA - EV is about $260 and it's being sold for about $260. Clearly EV isn't the fantasyland economics you make it out to be, otherwise EVERY RETAILER SELLING THIS SET IS WRONG! So which is more likely?
Worldgorger dragon is iconic as it was part of a popular infinite combo that was format defining and memorable. The deck was VERY strong in 1.5, resilient to hate (as graveyard hate wasn't as strong back then), very consistent and stable. Saying it's awful and part of an easily disruptable combo means little - Dredge is still alive and fights through similar hate as do many other graveyard based strategies. That argument holds about as much water as "dies to removal". Similar to Balance and Necropotence, they are just broken cards in the right decks.
You will never, ever sell every card you open at SCG prices unless you are SCG. That's why the MTGGoldfish article uses a 30% spread. "Expecting" to open value that is only achievable by the biggest Magic retailer and then making financial decisions based on that assumption is completely stupid and the definition of fantasyland economics. You might as well quantify the fun you get from opening a booster and add that to the EV while you're at it.
You and I have different definitions of playable. I don't consider cards that only enable one combo deck that used to be pretty good but are now regarded as inconsistent and easily disrupted "playable".
You will never, ever sell every card you open at SCG prices unless you are SCG. That's why the MTGGoldfish article uses a 30% spread. "Expecting" to open value that is only achievable by the biggest Magic retailer and then making financial decisions based on that assumption is completely stupid and the definition of fantasyland economics. You might as well quantify the fun you get from opening a booster and add that to the EV while you're at it.
You and I have different definitions of playable. I don't consider cards that only enable one combo deck that used to be pretty good but are now regarded as inconsistent and easily disrupted "playable".
I agree with you. Opening boosters in an attempt to make money is a terrible decision. Doing so overwhelmingly will cost you money in the long run. The EV calculations are useful because they give us an estimate of what the street value of boxes will be. I don't know what SCG is smoking to price it $100 above market, but that's their insanity. Anyone with 30 seconds and a web browser could buy it cheaper.
In my post I didn't say that Worldgorger Dragon was playable - I said it was iconic. That part is absolutely true. Nowadays, there are far better reanimation targets. It certainly does evoke some nostalgia, playing it again though. I was never able to get the reanimation combo the one time I had it in my sealed pool as I didn't get an animate dead. Oh well, maybe next time.
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Imagine swapping giant tortious to mytich with force of will to common. now That would be a set that I want to open.
This set has a lot more high priced cards than a typical set, that is why it is $10 a pack, that and of course because wizards CAN charge 10, and if you CAN charge more, why not? But the value comes from the AVERAGE pack, not a given specific CRAPPY pack.
Generally, from what I've seen, and understand about marketing, they pretty much have to try and keep the average pack value to at or below MSRP. It has potential negative effects to the game and market to release new product with an expected value higher than what you are paying for it.
Sorry. It sucks. I've been playing magic for long enough to remember opening Rare Islands... so yeah... I don't feel particularly bad about most complaints I read now about crappy packs someone opens. Sorry, but that is the game. If you don't want to risk opening crappy packs, don't buy pack and just buy the cards you want. Generally that is cheaper anyway.
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
You're complaining that a card you don't want is going to be one of the cards you "waste $10 for" the least often.
Not to mention that Worldgorger Dragon is exactly the kind of card WotC explicitly implemented mythic rarity for.
In the beginning, the Mythic rarity was originally intended for big flashy cards that did big flashy things, or legendary cards that were significant to the plot. It was explicitly not intended to be for tournament staples and money cards; it's become that way over the course of time.
It became that way in the second block after mythic rarity was implemented with Lotus Cobra. Nobody with sense believed them for a second when they said mythic was only for big flashy epic cards and not tournament staples.
Still feel like it should have stayed at rare in this kind of set. Along with other cards like Force of Will. Are you really going to try to tell me that a "counter target spell" card is that epic? The only think epic about that card is the price and that's exactly why Wizards made it mythic. Thanks Wizards.
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Definitely agree. FoW is not an epic card. Vampiric Tutor isn't very epic either. Most of the mythic in this set are just high value cards. FoW at uncommon wouldn't break limited anymore than counter spell at common will. Vampiric Tutor at rare would be the same as all the other recent tutor effects that were at rare.
Indeed. I don't care if I get some turtle as a mythic, Force of Will would be everywhere.
Example: The player who's being controlled still chooses whether he or she leaves to visit the restroom, trades a card to someone else, agrees to an intentional draw, or calls a judge about an error or infraction.
How about this?
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Attacking a card like Control Magic I can understand more, but hey at least that card got its first foiling ever so its worth a lot in foil.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
This is generally true, but for a set with a limited print run prices tend to go toward the "too high" more than the "too low".
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
Except the EV of Eternal Masters is already well below MSRP. MTGGoldfish puts the EV of a pack at $8.34 based on SCG singles prices and the SCG price of an EMA booster is $15. Not only that, but this is heavily weighted toward a small handful of very valuable rares and mythics. Clearly many factors go in to the price of a booster, and not just robotic assessment of expected values (which is pretty stupid to begin with, since you'd be better off just buying what you need in the first place rather than gambling and wasting your time selling/trading if your "expected value" is less than or equal to the pack price)
Or they could print the set at levels that aren't embarrassingly low, especially for a 3rd try at a Masters set. Packs are $15, and I don't know about you, but getting $2 Worldgorger Dragon for $15 feels a hell of a lot worse than a $1 card from a $4 pack. At least that $1 card from Standard could potentially be worth something when other sets come out, but we know that Worldgorger Dragon is only ever going to see play with a specific combo. Packs are $15 not because of the value, as the EV is about $8, but because this set is printed at around MM1 levels. There is no reason they should have gone backwards in the print run for Eternal Masters. Had the print run been at MM2 not only would card prices been lower still, but the packs wouldn't be 50% higher almost everywhere. The only reason EMA is like this because plenty of these cards are on their own little special list, like a semi-Reserved List. Wizards treats these cards almost like the ones on the actual RL, where they fear the price dropping on these cards because of some "special" feeling they have for them. It is getting tiring when Wizards are not improving the formula.
People keep saying they will have to include more duds to even out the awesome stuff, but when $10 packs are involved there really shouldn't be "duds". Sure not all rares will get you the value of your pack, but I shouldn't feel like opening up the pack was a bad decision. I should be like "Eh, not all are winners" not "God I'm stupid for getting this."
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
Men... you're talking about me... I was one of those poor guy that pulls a foil archangel ligth... well, i opened a foil dragon lord atarka, so is not always bad
a) None of those cards you listed lost significant value since EMA. A couple bucks for Sinkhole, otherwise they're all pretty stable.
b) The EV is currently 55% of the going rate for packs, and 83% of MSRP. Clearly EV isn't as important as you think it is. That so many people give so much credence to this silly concept of EV is some Microeconomics 101, fantasyland, simpleminded, Grade-A BS.
c) Worldgorger is not playable. It is part of a single easily disrupted degenerate all-or-nothing combo, otherwise it's a pretty awful card.
At least the foil is $15 on SCG, but eh. Doesn't really matter as all the other foil mythics are far more desirable than foil WGD.
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The goldfish article mentioned has an EV of $8.34 IF you tried to immediately turn around and sell everything for buylist prices.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/the-expected-value-of-eternal-masters
If you're going by retail pricing, it's closer to $260 / box, or almost $11. Plus you can easily find boxes online for $260-$270, or about $11 / pack.
Your argument about the value being weighted toward a small handful of rares/mythics is simply incorrect. The very same Goldfish article you reference applauds Wizards for spreading the value out.
You are right about buying boxes is a losing proposition in the long run. You're far better off just buying singles and pinpointing exactly what you want/need. Personally, I like doing sealed and draft, so there is an intangible value I gain from packs that you cannot get from buying singles.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/modeling-eternal-masters-future-with-modern-masters
Its interesting to see what SaffronOlive predicts card pricing to do here. I'd bet he's closer to being right on the money.
Give VeritoAnimus a break. He's happy with what he got. There is no need to anger and frustrate him for your agenda.
You should go back and recheck your calculations on EV. You are basing it on data points that you have put together that are deliberately misleading. You are using $8.34 EV even though that is specifically buylist pricing. $15 / pack is ridiculous as you can find it for $100 / box less in several other places. On your second point of EV - it is important. We've seen it time and again with these limited run sets. If the EV is significantly higher than MSRP, what do the retailers do? They jack up the price. We saw it clearly with MM1 where MSRP was $7 and they were quickly being sold for $10/$11 pack. We're seeing it a bit here with EMA - EV is about $260 and it's being sold for about $260. Clearly EV isn't the fantasyland economics you make it out to be, otherwise EVERY RETAILER SELLING THIS SET IS WRONG! So which is more likely?
Worldgorger dragon is iconic as it was part of a popular infinite combo that was format defining and memorable. The deck was VERY strong in 1.5, resilient to hate (as graveyard hate wasn't as strong back then), very consistent and stable. Saying it's awful and part of an easily disruptable combo means little - Dredge is still alive and fights through similar hate as do many other graveyard based strategies. That argument holds about as much water as "dies to removal". Similar to Balance and Necropotence, they are just broken cards in the right decks.
You and I have different definitions of playable. I don't consider cards that only enable one combo deck that used to be pretty good but are now regarded as inconsistent and easily disrupted "playable".
I agree with you. Opening boosters in an attempt to make money is a terrible decision. Doing so overwhelmingly will cost you money in the long run. The EV calculations are useful because they give us an estimate of what the street value of boxes will be. I don't know what SCG is smoking to price it $100 above market, but that's their insanity. Anyone with 30 seconds and a web browser could buy it cheaper.
In my post I didn't say that Worldgorger Dragon was playable - I said it was iconic. That part is absolutely true. Nowadays, there are far better reanimation targets. It certainly does evoke some nostalgia, playing it again though. I was never able to get the reanimation combo the one time I had it in my sealed pool as I didn't get an animate dead. Oh well, maybe next time.