Play tested Sin Prodder; well, it doesn't effect draws much, really
I almost lost my mind laughing at this statement after immediately reading your posts on the previous pages, which were repeated "It DOES effect draws! REALLY!" Good on you for admitting it though. You seemed so vindicated in those posts.
At least I was right that the card blows. It doesn't stifle your draws; its just virtual vanilla.
I wouldn't say it "blows" either. I've both had it on my side, and faced one down, and in all of those occasions, it has been the deciding factor in those games. The card advantage that Sin Prodder can generate is just nuts on a body like that. I did find myself keeping him out of the red-zone more often than not, ecspecially with creatures that could survive the double-block, but it worked as a wonderful deterrence, with that 3 power. I'd give it a solid B+.
The only card advantage it ever conceivably gets is when it kills two creatures being double blocked. Sometimes, it only gets one of them even.
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
I don't get always watching being 'nuts'. It's not like serra's blessing was ever played.
Have you watched the deck in action? Every match up ends up being about that card. Have it stick, insanely hard to lose. Get it killed and your creatures are all terrible.
The one thing I got wrong was the bant deck. Didn't think it was good enough but there's infinite gas in that deck. I played esper control at this weekend's pptq. Played against it 3 times in the Swiss, drew once, beat it twice. But lost to it in the top 8 (no lands in g3). Esper is very well positioned right now, but I can't see what other deck can really stand up to it. Man is collected company an annoying card.
I would not say NO modern potential... there are a few card which might make it in modern. The tribal "lords" (and relentless dead) all are a big step forward in terms of modern tribal play ability,
possibly eldritch moon could in theory push a tribe like humans onto the modern stage. In addition, it brought some interesting cards which could potentially make a new deck like cryptolith rise, traverse the ulvenwald, or autumnal bloom.
I don't get always watching being 'nuts'. It's not like serra's blessing was ever played.
Serra's blessing may be bad, but Glorious Anthem was always almost good, and Always Watching staples the two together at no extra cost. The only drawback is that you can't play a token strategy (which is relevant.)
From my memory glorious anthem was almost never played in standard. It's always about the quality of the early white drops, not the global enchantments that make the deck. Right now there is a lot of very solid weenies.
From my memory glorious anthem was almost never played in standard. It's always about the quality of the early white drops, not the global enchantments that make the deck. Right now there is a lot of very solid weenies.
The only card advantage it ever conceivably gets is when it kills two creatures being double blocked. Sometimes, it only gets one of them even.
If Sin Prodder is ever good, it's good on the fact that a 3/2 menace for 3 is not the worst base. The fact remains that it is a very unique card, and the ability is undoubtedly powerful, if unreliable.
I've seen enough of this card to know it's not bonkers (yet,) but I've also seen enough of it to know that it can't be ignored.
How come Esper is really well positioned? Terrible Ramp Match-up, bad Eldrazi aggro match-up, lost two of it's most important cards (Dig through Time and Crux of Fate, along with the good manabase) and can't flip jace as soon as it did which is also really important
I can answer that.
I've been playing Esper for some time and I've crushed the field with the deck. Basically the worst matchup is mono white human and even that's not that bad.
The deck functions a bit differently from a traditional control deck. I personally don't think the dragons are necessary anymore either. 1 or 2 win conditions is all it needs (Sorin).
Essentially, all the removal lines up well against the threats in the format. Painful truths is the based card drawing spell in the format as well. And the 3 life loss is usually easily mitigated by vents/sorin. I'm still fiddling with the list but so far results have been obvious. The deck is extremely powerful (the blue is basically for 3 cards: Jace, Ojutai's command and class of wills).
The ramp matchup? You're kidding right? That's about as easy as it gets. The deck runs plenty of pick the brain and that card annihilates ramp. I love beating up on that deck because it's absolutely terrible and people keep jamming it. It's especially bad now since there are so many aggressive decks, it just can't compete. Eldrazi is also a bad deck and people are slowly coming to realize this (the r/w version). The b/w one is slowly moving away from the eldrazis except for displacer but the fact that it's an eldrazi is very insignificant.
Like I said, it's not a control deck in the traditional sense. It plays midrang threats (Sorin, Gideon, Ob nixilis, secure the wastes). The control isn't in counter spells but pro active spells.
Honestly, every Bant company players I've played agreed that Esper is a really bad matchup against them and they need to get lucky to win it. And having lost to it only once (couldn't draw any lands), that should tell you something.
I'm actually genuinely surprised that it doesn't show up more. I expect the pro-tour to change that.
The only card advantage it ever conceivably gets is when it kills two creatures being double blocked. Sometimes, it only gets one of them even.
If Sin Prodder is ever good, it's good on the fact that a 3/2 menace for 3 is not the worst base. The fact remains that it is a very unique card, and the ability is undoubtedly powerful, if unreliable.
I've seen enough of this card to know it's not bonkers (yet,) but I've also seen enough of it to know that it can't be ignored.
A 3/2 Menace for three isn't that great for anything outside of limited. And its ability isn't that unique. It's basically "At the beginning of your upkeep, put the top card of your library into your graveyard. Sin Prodder deals damage equal to that cards CMC to target opponent. Unless that card is worth less in your hand. Then it goes there. "
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
So in the end it's just a BW with a more unstable mana base? Honestly, other than a slow-flipping jace and the Dragonlords, the deck lost most of it's raw power with the loss of Dig, and against CoCo you can't just expect to trade 1 for 1 indefinitely, cause they are gonna overwhelm you.
Ya it's mostly b/w. I identified that color combination early on as having the most raw power. Adding the blue, which is slight and has absolutely not hindered at all by being a tri color deck (ask bant company how it feels about it's "unstable" manabase) that adds a little bit more control. Sweepers like Languish can reset the board again and Descend upon the sinful is actually incredibly powerful (getting that angel has been key in a low of matchups).
The biggest problem i've found when facing something like bant is not any of its creatures. It's the lumbering falls. There are no interactions with that card, unfortunately. Some of my matches have been lost solely on the back of that thing. That to me is the biggest strength of the deck. The ability to have a creature that is nearly impossible to interact with.
Aren't you running Foul Tongue Invocation? We have a fairly good player at one of the LGSs who only runs esper and he is playing 3 FTI main.
To the slaughter actually has more upside and ya, been considering it. Really looking forward to seeing the pt though. I've run a u/b reanimator list that is also very strong. I expect that to show up too.
To the Slaughter without delirium is just bad. FTI gives you a little tempo against aggro decks.
What are you talking about? They do exactly the same thing. FTI has no way of triggering lifegain since...there's no dragons in the deck. TtS will ALWAYS be better.
To the Slaughter without delirium is just bad. FTI gives you a little tempo against aggro decks.
What are you talking about? They do exactly the same thing. FTI has no way of triggering lifegain since...there's no dragons in the deck. TtS will ALWAYS be better.
Also, it's not like it's hard getting delirium.
You are not running either Dragonlord?
Two silumgar's in the SB for ramp but thinking of cutting them since they really aren't that useful and ramp sucks.
This is just as bad a set for constructed as ......
Top 10: NONE
Hehe, 3 years being a member keeping your posts strictly on how horrible the new set is. Love it
Sin Prodder, Fiery Temper and Heir of Falkenrath jump out for me.
For casual I def want me a shiny Westvale Abbey, and several of the flip cards....
ha
just took five minutes and read SGDoc's posts. Actually quite funny to read such consistently grumpy posts.
Hey SGDoc: I dare you to to share a story or three about some lovely Magic playing times, your favorite cards, or your favorite all time set and why it's so wonderful. I reckon you love the game as many of us do, but just aren't used to expressing your faves.... Wanna try?
No offense or flame intended, just looking for some positivity. thx.
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The Steamflogged
Human Rigger Rebels
Resisting The Tyranny of the Anti-Contraptionists. Viva L'Assemblage!
Modern-- Fish; Jund; Burn; Affinity; Mill Legacy--UGBFood Chain; UFish; UBRG Delver Commander--UB Sygg, River Cutthroat; W Isamaru, H.O.K.WRG Naya grouphug Enchantress 60 Card Singleton -- WB value drain UN- -- W Weenie (Wordmail on Knight of the Hokey Pokey is good beats)
I really don't think this is one of the strongest sets in recent memory. The BFZ block singlehandedly warped modern into oblivion (Mainly OGW but I digress). Additionally, Khans block gave us new modern staples which reinforced old archetypes like Kolaghan's command, Siege Rhino, Tasigur, Ugin, Atarka's command, Collected company, Monastery Mentor, Sorin, solemn visitor, etc. Origins even gives us Abbot of Keral Keep, Jace (who sees play in every formay), and cards like Ghirapur Aether grid and Dwynen's elite which helped existing strategies like elves and such. Not to mention cards like Pia and Kiran Nalaar which became extremely powerful. So I think that your evaluation is extremely poor, and this set is extremely weak.THAT BEING SAID....this set is still good, and even as a modern player I appreciate the brew cards like traverse the ulvenwald. I think complaints that this set is underpowered are warranted, but it is by no means a bad set, at least in my evaluation.
I really don't think this is one of the strongest sets in recent memory. The BFZ block singlehandedly warped modern into oblivion (Mainly OGW but I digress). Additionally, Khans block gave us new modern staples which reinforced old archetypes like Kolaghan's command, Siege Rhino, Tasigur, Ugin, Atarka's command, Collected company, Monastery Mentor, Sorin, solemn visitor, etc. Origins even gives us Abbot of Keral Keep, Jace (who sees play in every formay), and cards like Ghirapur Aether grid and Dwynen's elite which helped existing strategies like elves and such. Not to mention cards like Pia and Kiran Nalaar which became extremely powerful. So I think that your evaluation is extremely poor, and this set is extremely weak.THAT BEING SAID....this set is still good, and even as a modern player I appreciate the brew cards like traverse the ulvenwald. I think complaints that this set is underpowered are warranted, but it is by no means a bad set, at least in my evaluation.
This is wrong, on many levels. BFZ block didn't warp modern, a card from original ZEN was the catalyst for those decks, the only thing BFZ block did was increase the card pool to actually put a deck together. That deck has all but crumbled since the banning of Eye of Ugin. Abbot of Keral Keep has been all but forgotten, even dropping out of sideboards, although it could be in line for a resurgence. Ma and Pa Chandra are basically a reprint of Siege Gang commander, which is still better in a lot of decks. Flip Jace is broken, Taisgur is pushed, and I haven't seen any of the other cards in top 8's for quite some time, if at all, so those are really bad barometers for determining if a set is poweful or not. At the most recent SCG event, Nahiri, the Harbringer took the top spot. The whole block hasn't even come out yet, incredibly pre-mature to look at SOI and determine its power level with another ~250 cards yet to come.
So I think it's time that I bring this thread back to life and go back on what was discussed...
1) Always watching. Turns out i was right. The card is great and basically made humans THE deck at the beginning of the season. We haven't seen the last of this one yet. RIGHT
2) Dragonlord Ojutai. This card, in a vacuum, is extremely powerful. However, due to presence of Avacyn, has gone from hero to zero in a bout .3 seconds. WRONG
3) Sin Prodder. Card sucks. No more needs to be said. RIGHT
4) Thing in the Ice. Card did exactly what I said it would do. Diddly squat. RIGHT
5) Olivia. See Thing in the Ice. (didn't have an opinion)
Cards EVERYONE missed that turned out to be incredible
1) Tireless Tracker. Likely to be the second most played and best card in Standard (Avacyn being unanimously no.1). The card does everything you want it to do in a green creature. Scales incredibly well, cycles your flood and can generate so much advantage that if it's not immediately answered, will warp the game around it.
2) Nahiri the Harbinger. I picked up my playset very very early on this one (at 12$ a pop) because I knew it was only a matter of time before this card spiked. It's not going anywhere.
3) Thraben Inspector. Tom Ross is about the only person who was extremely high on this card and it turns out he was extremely right. An early drop that you don't mind drawing late in the game in a tribe that matters.
4) Cryptolith Rite. This one pretty much everyone thought it was ok, maybe unplayable. Boy were we all wrong. Card is bonkers when it gets to do its thing.
5) Griff's boon. From unplayable garbage to limited/standard power house. Sometimes context is everything.
So I think it's time that I bring this thread back to life and go back on what was discussed...
1) Always watching. Turns out i was right. The card is great and basically made humans THE deck at the beginning of the season. We haven't seen the last of this one yet. RIGHT
2) Dragonlord Ojutai. This card, in a vacuum, is extremely powerful. However, due to presence of Avacyn, has gone from hero to zero in a bout .3 seconds. WRONG
3) Sin Prodder. Card sucks. No more needs to be said. RIGHT
4) Thing in the Ice. Card did exactly what I said it would do. Diddly squat. RIGHT
5) Olivia. See Thing in the Ice. (didn't have an opinion)
Cards EVERYONE missed that turned out to be incredible
1) Tireless Tracker. Likely to be the second most played and best card in Standard (Avacyn being unanimously no.1). The card does everything you want it to do in a green creature. Scales incredibly well, cycles your flood and can generate so much advantage that if it's not immediately answered, will warp the game around it.
2) Nahiri the Harbinger. I picked up my playset very very early on this one (at 12$ a pop) because I knew it was only a matter of time before this card spiked. It's not going anywhere.
3) Thraben Inspector. Tom Ross is about the only person who was extremely high on this card and it turns out he was extremely right. An early drop that you don't mind drawing late in the game in a tribe that matters.
4) Cryptolith Rite. This one pretty much everyone thought it was ok, maybe unplayable. Boy were we all wrong. Card is bonkers when it gets to do its thing.
5) Griff's boon. From unplayable garbage to limited/standard power house. Sometimes context is everything.
I don't see how this brings the thread back to its intended discussion. Is all I read was "me me me me me me me me, I I I I I I".
At this point, I'm waiting to see what will survive rotation, considering many of the staples are heavily dependent on cards in sets that will rotate out.
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The only card advantage it ever conceivably gets is when it kills two creatures being double blocked. Sometimes, it only gets one of them even.
Have you watched the deck in action? Every match up ends up being about that card. Have it stick, insanely hard to lose. Get it killed and your creatures are all terrible.
The one thing I got wrong was the bant deck. Didn't think it was good enough but there's infinite gas in that deck. I played esper control at this weekend's pptq. Played against it 3 times in the Swiss, drew once, beat it twice. But lost to it in the top 8 (no lands in g3). Esper is very well positioned right now, but I can't see what other deck can really stand up to it. Man is collected company an annoying card.
possibly eldritch moon could in theory push a tribe like humans onto the modern stage. In addition, it brought some interesting cards which could potentially make a new deck like cryptolith rise, traverse the ulvenwald, or autumnal bloom.
Serra's blessing may be bad, but Glorious Anthem was always almost good, and Always Watching staples the two together at no extra cost. The only drawback is that you can't play a token strategy (which is relevant.)
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Wonder how far back your memory of Standard formats go--it seems that you don't remember when Lorwyn was Standard-legal, because there were several BW Tokens decks with 3-4 Glorious Anthem according to http://www.tcdecks.net/archetype.php?archetype=B/W Aggro&format=Standard [Lrw_10th_SoA] . (Yes, the square brackets are part of the link.)
If Sin Prodder is ever good, it's good on the fact that a 3/2 menace for 3 is not the worst base. The fact remains that it is a very unique card, and the ability is undoubtedly powerful, if unreliable.
I've seen enough of this card to know it's not bonkers (yet,) but I've also seen enough of it to know that it can't be ignored.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
I can answer that.
I've been playing Esper for some time and I've crushed the field with the deck. Basically the worst matchup is mono white human and even that's not that bad.
The deck functions a bit differently from a traditional control deck. I personally don't think the dragons are necessary anymore either. 1 or 2 win conditions is all it needs (Sorin).
Essentially, all the removal lines up well against the threats in the format. Painful truths is the based card drawing spell in the format as well. And the 3 life loss is usually easily mitigated by vents/sorin. I'm still fiddling with the list but so far results have been obvious. The deck is extremely powerful (the blue is basically for 3 cards: Jace, Ojutai's command and class of wills).
The ramp matchup? You're kidding right? That's about as easy as it gets. The deck runs plenty of pick the brain and that card annihilates ramp. I love beating up on that deck because it's absolutely terrible and people keep jamming it. It's especially bad now since there are so many aggressive decks, it just can't compete. Eldrazi is also a bad deck and people are slowly coming to realize this (the r/w version). The b/w one is slowly moving away from the eldrazis except for displacer but the fact that it's an eldrazi is very insignificant.
Like I said, it's not a control deck in the traditional sense. It plays midrang threats (Sorin, Gideon, Ob nixilis, secure the wastes). The control isn't in counter spells but pro active spells.
Honestly, every Bant company players I've played agreed that Esper is a really bad matchup against them and they need to get lucky to win it. And having lost to it only once (couldn't draw any lands), that should tell you something.
I'm actually genuinely surprised that it doesn't show up more. I expect the pro-tour to change that.
A 3/2 Menace for three isn't that great for anything outside of limited. And its ability isn't that unique. It's basically "At the beginning of your upkeep, put the top card of your library into your graveyard. Sin Prodder deals damage equal to that cards CMC to target opponent. Unless that card is worth less in your hand. Then it goes there. "
Ya it's mostly b/w. I identified that color combination early on as having the most raw power. Adding the blue, which is slight and has absolutely not hindered at all by being a tri color deck (ask bant company how it feels about it's "unstable" manabase) that adds a little bit more control. Sweepers like Languish can reset the board again and Descend upon the sinful is actually incredibly powerful (getting that angel has been key in a low of matchups).
The biggest problem i've found when facing something like bant is not any of its creatures. It's the lumbering falls. There are no interactions with that card, unfortunately. Some of my matches have been lost solely on the back of that thing. That to me is the biggest strength of the deck. The ability to have a creature that is nearly impossible to interact with.
To the slaughter actually has more upside and ya, been considering it. Really looking forward to seeing the pt though. I've run a u/b reanimator list that is also very strong. I expect that to show up too.
What are you talking about? They do exactly the same thing. FTI has no way of triggering lifegain since...there's no dragons in the deck. TtS will ALWAYS be better.
Also, it's not like it's hard getting delirium.
Two silumgar's in the SB for ramp but thinking of cutting them since they really aren't that useful and ramp sucks.
I'm starting to think that Seasons Past, Duskwatch Recruiter, and Tireless Tracker are the best cards in the set. They just go so bananas so easily.
I don't think the deck has all the pieces it needs yet - so it might be a thing that solidifies in the next set.
Custom Set
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hu9uNBSUt92PwGhvexYlwFvsh6_SJBlEEIUV3H9_XyU/edit?usp=sharing
Sin Prodder, Fiery Temper and Heir of Falkenrath jump out for me.
For casual I def want me a shiny Westvale Abbey, and several of the flip cards....
ha
just took five minutes and read SGDoc's posts. Actually quite funny to read such consistently grumpy posts.
Hey SGDoc: I dare you to to share a story or three about some lovely Magic playing times, your favorite cards, or your favorite all time set and why it's so wonderful. I reckon you love the game as many of us do, but just aren't used to expressing your faves.... Wanna try?
No offense or flame intended, just looking for some positivity. thx.
The Steamflogged
Human Rigger Rebels
Resisting The Tyranny of the Anti-Contraptionists.
Viva L'Assemblage!
Legacy--UGBFood Chain; UFish; UBRG Delver
Commander--UB Sygg, River Cutthroat; W Isamaru, H.O.K.WRG Naya grouphug Enchantress
60 Card Singleton -- WB value drain
UN- -- W Weenie (Wordmail on Knight of the Hokey Pokey is good beats)
This is wrong, on many levels. BFZ block didn't warp modern, a card from original ZEN was the catalyst for those decks, the only thing BFZ block did was increase the card pool to actually put a deck together. That deck has all but crumbled since the banning of Eye of Ugin. Abbot of Keral Keep has been all but forgotten, even dropping out of sideboards, although it could be in line for a resurgence. Ma and Pa Chandra are basically a reprint of Siege Gang commander, which is still better in a lot of decks. Flip Jace is broken, Taisgur is pushed, and I haven't seen any of the other cards in top 8's for quite some time, if at all, so those are really bad barometers for determining if a set is poweful or not. At the most recent SCG event, Nahiri, the Harbringer took the top spot. The whole block hasn't even come out yet, incredibly pre-mature to look at SOI and determine its power level with another ~250 cards yet to come.
1) Always watching. Turns out i was right. The card is great and basically made humans THE deck at the beginning of the season. We haven't seen the last of this one yet. RIGHT
2) Dragonlord Ojutai. This card, in a vacuum, is extremely powerful. However, due to presence of Avacyn, has gone from hero to zero in a bout .3 seconds. WRONG
3) Sin Prodder. Card sucks. No more needs to be said. RIGHT
4) Thing in the Ice. Card did exactly what I said it would do. Diddly squat. RIGHT
5) Olivia. See Thing in the Ice. (didn't have an opinion)
Cards EVERYONE missed that turned out to be incredible
1) Tireless Tracker. Likely to be the second most played and best card in Standard (Avacyn being unanimously no.1). The card does everything you want it to do in a green creature. Scales incredibly well, cycles your flood and can generate so much advantage that if it's not immediately answered, will warp the game around it.
2) Nahiri the Harbinger. I picked up my playset very very early on this one (at 12$ a pop) because I knew it was only a matter of time before this card spiked. It's not going anywhere.
3) Thraben Inspector. Tom Ross is about the only person who was extremely high on this card and it turns out he was extremely right. An early drop that you don't mind drawing late in the game in a tribe that matters.
4) Cryptolith Rite. This one pretty much everyone thought it was ok, maybe unplayable. Boy were we all wrong. Card is bonkers when it gets to do its thing.
5) Griff's boon. From unplayable garbage to limited/standard power house. Sometimes context is everything.
I don't see how this brings the thread back to its intended discussion. Is all I read was "me me me me me me me me, I I I I I I".
At this point, I'm waiting to see what will survive rotation, considering many of the staples are heavily dependent on cards in sets that will rotate out.