The cards in this set are harder too evaluate than the last few, IMO. This was kinda the same with original Innistrad, where everyone dismissed the set, but it ended up making waves in all formats. While this might not have as vast an impact, I think there will end up being more cards in SOI that are playable in multiple formats than the last two sets combined(once that Eldrazi land ban comes into effect for Modern).
As players, for the past few years, we are used to 50%+ of a set's new mechanics being ways to put a +1/+1 counter on a creature, most of these failed to breakout of limited and where easy to tell which was good and bad for other formats. This set has no direct +1/+1 counter ability, therefore I think it is harder to accurately judge, especially in the wake of such dull lackluster abilities we have had to deck build around.
I'm surprised at how none of you mention Always Watching. This innocuous card will lead to Dragonlord Ojutai becoming the bane of standard. How do you kill a 6/5 flying/hexproof/vigilance?
Additionally, Declaration in stone is one of the best removal spells ever printed. White is going to be absurd going forward.
As for Thing in the ice, that card is genuinely unplayable. People get all wrapped up with how it's going to be so good but you will see that in execution, that card is quite bad and makes you jump through a bunch of hoops to not do a whole lot. That's my most overrated card in the set.
And as a side note, I played in my first pre-release last night and my thoughts: Delirium is laughably easy to achieve, Sorin is unbeatable and deck building is actually quite hard in this format.
I'm surprised at how none of you mention Always Watching. This innocuous card will lead to Dragonlord Ojutai becoming the bane of standard. How do you kill a 6/5 flying/hexproof/vigilance?
I have thought about that too but after realizing that Brave the Sands existed in Standard and didn't see play I don't think Always Watching will see play with Ojutai either but you never know I guess.
Sin Prodder has NO downside. It's nuts. Easily one of the best 5 cards in the set.
It is a worse Zur's Weirding, and that card is pretty bad. It seems like it has no downside until it turns all of your Lightning Bolts into Gut Shots while you keep drawing lands. Adjust burn spells to the format, and it remains true. Not saying it isn't good, but it definitely backfires some amount of the time, like all punisher cards.
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After last night's prerelease I can assure you that Neglected Heirloom with a sufficient number of DFC werewolves can be a game-winning strategy. In 5 out of 9 individual games I managed to get the old sword out on turn 1, then a flip-werewolf on turn 2 such as Duskwatch Recruiter or Hinterland Logger, turn 3 equip the sword then pass then turn, instantly giving me a significant threat which proceeded to win the game with only ancillary support from Ember-Eye Wolf and Howlpack Resurgence.
The only person to whom I lost was the guy who managed to pull both Arlinn *and* Nahiri. He had to mulligan down to 5, got Arlinn on turn 4, Nahiri on turn 6, then came back from behind on both life points and board presence to win.
I'm surprised at how none of you mention Always Watching. This innocuous card will lead to Dragonlord Ojutai becoming the bane of standard. How do you kill a 6/5 flying/hexproof/vigilance?
I have thought about that too but after realizing that Brave the Sands existed in Standard and didn't see play I don't think Always Watching will see play with Ojutai either but you never know I guess.
Ajani Steadfast was a much better combo with Ojutai, and those two together were only in a handful of decks. Ojutai won't be any bigger a nuisance than he was already.
This is just as bad a set for constructed as Battle for Zendikar was. Wizards these days is just hiding behind the flavor. You're all being blinded by some lame investigating story. The cards are low powered and uninteresting. And this time there aren't even any expeditions to buy packs for. Innistrad draft was fun because you had cool archetypes like Burning Vengeance and Spider Spawning. There's nothing like that in this set. Stop being such fanboys and wake up and realize the crap set you have all been served. Oh and blue is complete trash. Like actual hot flaming garbage. There's also a lot of really weak versions of previous Innistrad cards. An aura that is so bad to honor Geist of Saint Traft. A really horrible Delver of Secrets. What a bad bad bad bad set
Top 10: NONE
Hehe, 3 years being a member keeping your posts strictly on how horrible the new set is. Love it
Haha you should see what he said about the M14 prerelease:
"Opened my sealed pool, threw up all over the table because all the cards in this set are so bad, then left."
Sin Prodder has NO downside. It's nuts. Easily one of the best 5 cards in the set.
It is a worse Zur's Weirding, and that card is pretty bad. It seems like it has no downside until it turns all of your Lightning Bolts into Gut Shots while you keep drawing lands. Adjust burn spells to the format, and it remains true. Not saying it isn't good, but it definitely backfires some amount of the time, like all punisher cards.
That isn't a reasonable comparison. Sin Proder is a 3/2 menace for 3 with upside. It is decent card with solid stats. It will probably see some play, but will never be the best card in its own deck. It isn't in any way similar to Zur's Weirding. The cards play completely different roles.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
ajani is a planeswalker, can be attacked, was really killed via an incredibly widely played card (downfall) and you couldn't have more than one. Always watching is an enchantment, harder to interact with, can hold multiples and pumps your whole team without having to do anything additional. It's a completely different effect. Brave in the sands didn't do anything relevant.
I hold on to my case and think ojutai will be dominant in the upcoming standard along with AW and that titi will be unplayable. If I'm wrong, please feel free to bring this thread back up and make me eat crow.
Sin Prodder has NO downside. It's nuts. Easily one of the best 5 cards in the set.
It is a worse Zur's Weirding, and that card is pretty bad. It seems like it has no downside until it turns all of your Lightning Bolts into Gut Shots while you keep drawing lands. Adjust burn spells to the format, and it remains true. Not saying it isn't good, but it definitely backfires some amount of the time, like all punisher cards.
That isn't a reasonable comparison. Sin Proder is a 3/2 menace for 3 with upside. It is decent card with solid stats. It will probably see some play, but will never be the best card in its own deck. It isn't in any way similar to Zur's Weirding. The cards play completely different roles.
Sin Prodder's "upside" is that your opponent gets to Mindsculptor you each turn. Its not that good, and it is pretty similar to Zur's Weirding. They can pay life to prevent you from getting good cards.
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Sin Prodder's "upside" is that your opponent gets to Mindsculptor you each turn. Its not that good, and it is pretty similar to Zur's Weirding. They can pay life to prevent you from getting good cards.
You are aware that the effect of Sin prodder doesn't effect the normal draw for a turn right? When you have sin prodder, at each of your upkeep, the ability triggers. At this point, you reveal the top card and one of three things happen...
1. Its a land, your opponent mills it and takes no damage, then you draw a random card during the draw phase.
2. Its a spell, your opponent mills it and takes some damage, then you draw a random card during the draw phase.
3. Its a spell, your opponent lets you draw it, then you draw an additional random card during the draw phase.
...There is no result in which the sin prodder ability is a down side. Sin prodder is strictly better than a 3/2 menace for 3. There is no drawback. Read the card.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I don't know if it will make any difference in Standard but in Limited Startled Awake is the quickest and most efficient win condition available. Similarly, Relentless Dead exceeds its expectations.
Sin Prodder has NO downside. It's nuts. Easily one of the best 5 cards in the set.
It is a worse Zur's Weirding, and that card is pretty bad. It seems like it has no downside until it turns all of your Lightning Bolts into Gut Shots while you keep drawing lands. Adjust burn spells to the format, and it remains true. Not saying it isn't good, but it definitely backfires some amount of the time, like all punisher cards.
That isn't a reasonable comparison. Sin Proder is a 3/2 menace for 3 with upside. It is decent card with solid stats. It will probably see some play, but will never be the best card in its own deck. It isn't in any way similar to Zur's Weirding. The cards play completely different roles.
Sin Prodder's "upside" is that your opponent gets to Mindsculptor you each turn. Its not that good, and it is pretty similar to Zur's Weirding. They can pay life to prevent you from getting good cards.
Define "pay life to prevent you from getting good cards". If you mean binning every single spell you can and taking a minimum of 1 damage per said spell, combined with the more often than not unblockable 3 damage, combined with a still drawn card, then yes, I have no problem with my opponents "paying life to prevent me from getting good cards." Also, stop calling it a punisher card, it's not. Punisher cards have an inherent drawback to its controller, this, while it's worded like it does, really does not.
My vote is going to go to Olivia, Mobilized for war. If there is a card that can fuel a deck in Standard, and *maybe* modern, it's her. She's one of those rare legends that can "ignore" the legend rule by utilizing her ability. Modern could find some strange, but insane synergies with the discard/haste/+1 counter. I'm not always great at brewing, but with some repeatable fodder like Squee, Goblin Nabob, I'm sure she can be abused to great effect. Standard is an easy one, an ability that trigger madness and also pumps and grants haste, essentially for free? Sign me up.
Neglected Heirloom is pretty darn good. It starts off as a Leonin scimitar which isn't shabby, and can easily flip into a very threatening equipment. I know some people were down on it, but from what I saw, it was actually very strong when it hit the field. Especially with the pacifist.
Always Watching is ok, and is great with DragonLord Ojutai, but it does the exact opposite of what you want out of an anthem effect. The reason why tokens and Anthems go so well together is because you put a ton of pressure on without really investing much. A wrath on a board full of tokens doesn't really do anything, well, it doesn't diminish the values of your play. Looks at Gather the Townsfolk for example. For 2 mana, you get a 2/2 body on 2 creatures, that good value. Now, in the same block you had Intangible Virtue. That turned those 2 1/1's into 2/2's, with little to no set up, and you are basically coaxing out removal. With Always Watching, it only affects non-token, so you have to have a board presence of actual creatures, which can be incredibly difficult to both set up, and maintain. It also forces you to be aggressive, as a single wrath will set you back to the Stone Age.
For Thing in the Ice, I was once pretty hot on it, but have cooled. It won't do crazy things in standard because of effiecnt removal at low costs, compared to the cards that enable it's trigger. It could be a thing in Modern, if utilized correctly. Its initially a 0/4, so it doesn't scream "Answer Me Now!", but depending on the matchup, it could be. It doesn't require a cost to maintain, but flipping could be a hassle, as it will probably require cards beyond the initial 7 drawn. It could be a incredibly powerful in control, though. I've thought for a while it needed to be like a U/R prowess/tempo shell, but not always. It turns control staples like Snapcaster Mage into 2-for-1's, and you can flip it almost will, and will probably always have some sort of protection up. It's situational, but it could find a home, I'm sure of it. Most decks have better things to do than kill a 2 drop wall that needs some gas to do anything, which gives you enough time to set it up. It's 50-50 in my book.
Sin Prodder has NO downside. It's nuts. Easily one of the best 5 cards in the set.
It is a worse Zur's Weirding, and that card is pretty bad. It seems like it has no downside until it turns all of your Lightning Bolts into Gut Shots while you keep drawing lands. Adjust burn spells to the format, and it remains true. Not saying it isn't good, but it definitely backfires some amount of the time, like all punisher cards.
That isn't a reasonable comparison. Sin Proder is a 3/2 menace for 3 with upside. It is decent card with solid stats. It will probably see some play, but will never be the best card in its own deck. It isn't in any way similar to Zur's Weirding. The cards play completely different roles.
Sin Prodder's "upside" is that your opponent gets to Mindsculptor you each turn. Its not that good, and it is pretty similar to Zur's Weirding. They can pay life to prevent you from getting good cards.
Define "pay life to prevent you from getting good cards". If you mean binning every single spell you can and taking a minimum of 1 damage per said spell, combined with the more often than not unblockable 3 damage, combined with a still drawn card, then yes, I have no problem with my opponents "paying life to prevent me from getting good cards." Also, stop calling it a punisher card, it's not. Punisher cards have an inherent drawback to its controller, this, while it's worded like it does, really does not.
It is a punisher card though. If, as an opponent of someone controlling this card, I see a card that I would rather take damage than let you cast, this card gives me that option. Just because a punisher effect is pushed doesn't make it not a punisher effect. Allowing your opponent to pay life to Clique your draw each turn is a drawback. I don't have to bin every spell each turn; only the ones you need.
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It is a worse Zur's Weirding, and that card is pretty bad. It seems like it has no downside until it turns all of your Lightning Bolts into Gut Shots while you keep drawing lands. Adjust burn spells to the format, and it remains true. Not saying it isn't good, but it definitely backfires some amount of the time, like all punisher cards.
That isn't a reasonable comparison. Sin Proder is a 3/2 menace for 3 with upside. It is decent card with solid stats. It will probably see some play, but will never be the best card in its own deck. It isn't in any way similar to Zur's Weirding. The cards play completely different roles.
Sin Prodder's "upside" is that your opponent gets to Mindsculptor you each turn. Its not that good, and it is pretty similar to Zur's Weirding. They can pay life to prevent you from getting good cards.
Define "pay life to prevent you from getting good cards". If you mean binning every single spell you can and taking a minimum of 1 damage per said spell, combined with the more often than not unblockable 3 damage, combined with a still drawn card, then yes, I have no problem with my opponents "paying life to prevent me from getting good cards." Also, stop calling it a punisher card, it's not. Punisher cards have an inherent drawback to its controller, this, while it's worded like it does, really does not.
It is a punisher card though. If, as an opponent of someone controlling this card, I see a card that I would rather take damage than let you cast, this card gives me that option. Just because a punisher effect is pushed doesn't make it not a punisher effect. Allowing your opponent to pay life to Clique your draw each turn is a drawback. I don't have to bin every spell each turn; only the ones you need.
What do you mean it cliques your draw? This card doesn't interfere with your draw in any way whatsoever.
And regarding calling it a punisher card. The thing is that it is a decent body for the price in itself making hte punishing part essentially an upside to an already decent beater. The card doesn't rely solely on the punishereffect to be playable, that effect is an extra upside.
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It is a worse Zur's Weirding, and that card is pretty bad. It seems like it has no downside until it turns all of your Lightning Bolts into Gut Shots while you keep drawing lands. Adjust burn spells to the format, and it remains true. Not saying it isn't good, but it definitely backfires some amount of the time, like all punisher cards.
That isn't a reasonable comparison. Sin Proder is a 3/2 menace for 3 with upside. It is decent card with solid stats. It will probably see some play, but will never be the best card in its own deck. It isn't in any way similar to Zur's Weirding. The cards play completely different roles.
Sin Prodder's "upside" is that your opponent gets to Mindsculptor you each turn. Its not that good, and it is pretty similar to Zur's Weirding. They can pay life to prevent you from getting good cards.
Define "pay life to prevent you from getting good cards". If you mean binning every single spell you can and taking a minimum of 1 damage per said spell, combined with the more often than not unblockable 3 damage, combined with a still drawn card, then yes, I have no problem with my opponents "paying life to prevent me from getting good cards." Also, stop calling it a punisher card, it's not. Punisher cards have an inherent drawback to its controller, this, while it's worded like it does, really does not.
It is a punisher card though. If, as an opponent of someone controlling this card, I see a card that I would rather take damage than let you cast, this card gives me that option. Just because a punisher effect is pushed doesn't make it not a punisher effect. Allowing your opponent to pay life to Clique your draw each turn is a drawback. I don't have to bin every spell each turn; only the ones you need.
Dude, how many times does it have to be said? Read the card, then again, and then one more time, it does NOT replace your draw. The only punishment is not getting an additional draw. Not reading the card totally invalidates any point you are trying to make.
Edit-
Since you are obviously way to lazy to do it yourself, the card text is below, minus the menace. Where does it "clique" my draw?
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library. Any opponent may have you put that card into your graveyard. If a player does, Sin Prodder deals damage to that player equal to that card's converted mana cost. Otherwise, put that card into your hand.
And in the mirror match, you open your self up to take 18. Now this is a punisher card, trading a Beefy, haste evasive creature for a Curse of Blodletting for your opponent.
Although, I'm totally down with swinging in with her if she has First-Strike or Double Strike, then "trading her" with Bazaar Trader or Zedruu, the Greathearted and other shenanigans.
Always Watching is ok, and is great with DragonLord Ojutai, but it does the exact opposite of what you want out of an anthem effect. The reason why tokens and Anthems go so well together is because you put a ton of pressure on without really investing much. A wrath on a board full of tokens doesn't really do anything, well, it doesn't diminish the values of your play. Looks at Gather the Townsfolk for example. For 2 mana, you get a 2/2 body on 2 creatures, that good value. Now, in the same block you had Intangible Virtue. That turned those 2 1/1's into 2/2's, with little to no set up, and you are basically coaxing out removal. With Always Watching, it only affects non-token, so you have to have a board presence of actual creatures, which can be incredibly difficult to both set up, and maintain. It also forces you to be aggressive, as a single wrath will set you back to the Stone Age.
I get what you're saying. Anthem effects are better for tokens as it's easier to just throw a bunch on the board and not really care about getting wrath'd. BUT. I think this standard will be very different. How many decks play wrath effects? Wrath effects are actually terrible these days and are confined to ONE color (white). No other color offers a wrath effect that can kill Ojutai with AW in play. Also, how is it "hard" to fill your board with non token creatures? Have you played any standard in the last year? It's about as easy as it gets. The removal is WAY worse going forward (and without crackling doom there's about 2 ways in the entire format to kill Ojutai, and 1 of them is really really bad - 'to the slaughter'). Like i said, I think people are not looking at context when it comes to the card. They are always cards that turn out to be way better in one format over an other due to the presence (or lack thereof) of certain cards. JTMS once was a bad card in standard as Jund prevented him to do anything good. Once jund left standard, JTMS DOMINATED the format. People actually USED to say that the card was bad, I remember. I mean the thing was pre-selling at 20$ and people were dumping on it "oh it costs 4, a bounce effect is kind of crap, that ultimate is pointless, etc". So like I said, i'm more than willing to eat crow in 3 months, but I doubt I will need to.
I'm just going to say that you are comparing the playability of 3 cmc(1WW) enchantment to a broken planeswalker, right? Thats about all I'm going to say about this. And in 3-5 months I won't even remeber this thread, so I'll expect you to be on the honor system and just eat the crow.
I'm just going to say that you are comparing the playability of 3 cmc(1WW) enchantment to a broken planeswalker, right? Thats about all I'm going to say about this. And in 3-5 months I won't even remeber this thread, so I'll expect you to be on the honor system and just eat the crow.
OK. Maybe the word 'context' confused you when I wrote in tandem with jtms. Folks tend to lose their marbles a little whenever he's brought up.
I never declared to compare the two directly, I said in context. And context is everything. Of course jtms is a better card in a vacuum. But again jtms was unplayable when jund was a thing in standard. Maybe you didn't play standard back then, but I did.
I still think aw is underrated and will see play. Maybe not necessarily along side ojutai, but definitely in a mono white build. And it will be very very good.
That isn't a reasonable comparison. Sin Proder is a 3/2 menace for 3 with upside. It is decent card with solid stats. It will probably see some play, but will never be the best card in its own deck. It isn't in any way similar to Zur's Weirding. The cards play completely different roles.
Sin Prodder's "upside" is that your opponent gets to Mindsculptor you each turn. Its not that good, and it is pretty similar to Zur's Weirding. They can pay life to prevent you from getting good cards.
Define "pay life to prevent you from getting good cards". If you mean binning every single spell you can and taking a minimum of 1 damage per said spell, combined with the more often than not unblockable 3 damage, combined with a still drawn card, then yes, I have no problem with my opponents "paying life to prevent me from getting good cards." Also, stop calling it a punisher card, it's not. Punisher cards have an inherent drawback to its controller, this, while it's worded like it does, really does not.
It is a punisher card though. If, as an opponent of someone controlling this card, I see a card that I would rather take damage than let you cast, this card gives me that option. Just because a punisher effect is pushed doesn't make it not a punisher effect. Allowing your opponent to pay life to Clique your draw each turn is a drawback. I don't have to bin every spell each turn; only the ones you need.
What do you mean it cliques your draw? This card doesn't interfere with your draw in any way whatsoever.
And regarding calling it a punisher card. The thing is that it is a decent body for the price in itself making hte punishing part essentially an upside to an already decent beater. The card doesn't rely solely on the punishereffect to be playable, that effect is an extra upside.
A three mana 3/2 menace is not playable on its own. This one deals random amounts of damage to your opponent on your upkeep. Unless giving you an extra card is more in their game plan. Its ability is why you see it as playable, but the ability isn't that great. The fact that I can pay life to filter your draws means that not only will you not get extra cards I cannot handle off of it, but I can also bin what you need most. How many scenarios do you see yourself drawing extra cards with this? As opposed to revealing a land and watching this guy become the slowest delirium enabler in the set.
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As players, for the past few years, we are used to 50%+ of a set's new mechanics being ways to put a +1/+1 counter on a creature, most of these failed to breakout of limited and where easy to tell which was good and bad for other formats. This set has no direct +1/+1 counter ability, therefore I think it is harder to accurately judge, especially in the wake of such dull lackluster abilities we have had to deck build around.
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Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
Additionally, Declaration in stone is one of the best removal spells ever printed. White is going to be absurd going forward.
As for Thing in the ice, that card is genuinely unplayable. People get all wrapped up with how it's going to be so good but you will see that in execution, that card is quite bad and makes you jump through a bunch of hoops to not do a whole lot. That's my most overrated card in the set.
And as a side note, I played in my first pre-release last night and my thoughts: Delirium is laughably easy to achieve, Sorin is unbeatable and deck building is actually quite hard in this format.
I have thought about that too but after realizing that Brave the Sands existed in Standard and didn't see play I don't think Always Watching will see play with Ojutai either but you never know I guess.
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
GUSimic MerfolkUG
WUUW ControlUW
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
BUUB MillUB
Colorless Eldrazi Tron
WRBurnRW
GUSimic MerfolkUG
UMono U TurnsU
WGGenesis Wave EnchantressGW
It is a worse Zur's Weirding, and that card is pretty bad. It seems like it has no downside until it turns all of your Lightning Bolts into Gut Shots while you keep drawing lands. Adjust burn spells to the format, and it remains true. Not saying it isn't good, but it definitely backfires some amount of the time, like all punisher cards.
The only person to whom I lost was the guy who managed to pull both Arlinn *and* Nahiri. He had to mulligan down to 5, got Arlinn on turn 4, Nahiri on turn 6, then came back from behind on both life points and board presence to win.
Ajani Steadfast was a much better combo with Ojutai, and those two together were only in a handful of decks. Ojutai won't be any bigger a nuisance than he was already.
Haha you should see what he said about the M14 prerelease:
"Opened my sealed pool, threw up all over the table because all the cards in this set are so bad, then left."
LOL
C Long Live Eldrazi C
That isn't a reasonable comparison. Sin Proder is a 3/2 menace for 3 with upside. It is decent card with solid stats. It will probably see some play, but will never be the best card in its own deck. It isn't in any way similar to Zur's Weirding. The cards play completely different roles.
- Manite
ajani is a planeswalker, can be attacked, was really killed via an incredibly widely played card (downfall) and you couldn't have more than one. Always watching is an enchantment, harder to interact with, can hold multiples and pumps your whole team without having to do anything additional. It's a completely different effect. Brave in the sands didn't do anything relevant.
I hold on to my case and think ojutai will be dominant in the upcoming standard along with AW and that titi will be unplayable. If I'm wrong, please feel free to bring this thread back up and make me eat crow.
Sin Prodder's "upside" is that your opponent gets to Mindsculptor you each turn. Its not that good, and it is pretty similar to Zur's Weirding. They can pay life to prevent you from getting good cards.
You are aware that the effect of Sin prodder doesn't effect the normal draw for a turn right? When you have sin prodder, at each of your upkeep, the ability triggers. At this point, you reveal the top card and one of three things happen...
1. Its a land, your opponent mills it and takes no damage, then you draw a random card during the draw phase.
2. Its a spell, your opponent mills it and takes some damage, then you draw a random card during the draw phase.
3. Its a spell, your opponent lets you draw it, then you draw an additional random card during the draw phase.
...There is no result in which the sin prodder ability is a down side. Sin prodder is strictly better than a 3/2 menace for 3. There is no drawback. Read the card.
- Manite
Define "pay life to prevent you from getting good cards". If you mean binning every single spell you can and taking a minimum of 1 damage per said spell, combined with the more often than not unblockable 3 damage, combined with a still drawn card, then yes, I have no problem with my opponents "paying life to prevent me from getting good cards." Also, stop calling it a punisher card, it's not. Punisher cards have an inherent drawback to its controller, this, while it's worded like it does, really does not.
For Thing in the Ice, I was once pretty hot on it, but have cooled. It won't do crazy things in standard because of effiecnt removal at low costs, compared to the cards that enable it's trigger. It could be a thing in Modern, if utilized correctly. Its initially a 0/4, so it doesn't scream "Answer Me Now!", but depending on the matchup, it could be. It doesn't require a cost to maintain, but flipping could be a hassle, as it will probably require cards beyond the initial 7 drawn. It could be a incredibly powerful in control, though. I've thought for a while it needed to be like a U/R prowess/tempo shell, but not always. It turns control staples like Snapcaster Mage into 2-for-1's, and you can flip it almost will, and will probably always have some sort of protection up. It's situational, but it could find a home, I'm sure of it. Most decks have better things to do than kill a 2 drop wall that needs some gas to do anything, which gives you enough time to set it up. It's 50-50 in my book.
It is a punisher card though. If, as an opponent of someone controlling this card, I see a card that I would rather take damage than let you cast, this card gives me that option. Just because a punisher effect is pushed doesn't make it not a punisher effect. Allowing your opponent to pay life to Clique your draw each turn is a drawback. I don't have to bin every spell each turn; only the ones you need.
What do you mean it cliques your draw? This card doesn't interfere with your draw in any way whatsoever.
And regarding calling it a punisher card. The thing is that it is a decent body for the price in itself making hte punishing part essentially an upside to an already decent beater. The card doesn't rely solely on the punishereffect to be playable, that effect is an extra upside.
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Rules Advisor
Dude, how many times does it have to be said? Read the card, then again, and then one more time, it does NOT replace your draw. The only punishment is not getting an additional draw. Not reading the card totally invalidates any point you are trying to make.
Edit-
Since you are obviously way to lazy to do it yourself, the card text is below, minus the menace. Where does it "clique" my draw?
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library. Any opponent may have you put that card into your graveyard. If a player does, Sin Prodder deals damage to that player equal to that card's converted mana cost. Otherwise, put that card into your hand.
Although, I'm totally down with swinging in with her if she has First-Strike or Double Strike, then "trading her" with Bazaar Trader or Zedruu, the Greathearted and other shenanigans.
I get what you're saying. Anthem effects are better for tokens as it's easier to just throw a bunch on the board and not really care about getting wrath'd. BUT. I think this standard will be very different. How many decks play wrath effects? Wrath effects are actually terrible these days and are confined to ONE color (white). No other color offers a wrath effect that can kill Ojutai with AW in play. Also, how is it "hard" to fill your board with non token creatures? Have you played any standard in the last year? It's about as easy as it gets. The removal is WAY worse going forward (and without crackling doom there's about 2 ways in the entire format to kill Ojutai, and 1 of them is really really bad - 'to the slaughter'). Like i said, I think people are not looking at context when it comes to the card. They are always cards that turn out to be way better in one format over an other due to the presence (or lack thereof) of certain cards. JTMS once was a bad card in standard as Jund prevented him to do anything good. Once jund left standard, JTMS DOMINATED the format. People actually USED to say that the card was bad, I remember. I mean the thing was pre-selling at 20$ and people were dumping on it "oh it costs 4, a bounce effect is kind of crap, that ultimate is pointless, etc". So like I said, i'm more than willing to eat crow in 3 months, but I doubt I will need to.
OK. Maybe the word 'context' confused you when I wrote in tandem with jtms. Folks tend to lose their marbles a little whenever he's brought up.
I never declared to compare the two directly, I said in context. And context is everything. Of course jtms is a better card in a vacuum. But again jtms was unplayable when jund was a thing in standard. Maybe you didn't play standard back then, but I did.
I still think aw is underrated and will see play. Maybe not necessarily along side ojutai, but definitely in a mono white build. And it will be very very good.
A three mana 3/2 menace is not playable on its own. This one deals random amounts of damage to your opponent on your upkeep. Unless giving you an extra card is more in their game plan. Its ability is why you see it as playable, but the ability isn't that great. The fact that I can pay life to filter your draws means that not only will you not get extra cards I cannot handle off of it, but I can also bin what you need most. How many scenarios do you see yourself drawing extra cards with this? As opposed to revealing a land and watching this guy become the slowest delirium enabler in the set.