I would think the control applications for this card apply primarily to Standard. In Modern and Legacy, there are a million cheap Instants and Sorceries to help this thing flip that there's no excuse to just wait around. Shardless BUG would probably want this card (though I'm not entirely sure what they'd take out), but it shouldn't take long to flip, and then you could get your Shardless Agent(s) back into your hand to Cascade all over again.
It seems like a lot of trouble for a creature with no built-in protection or evasion. I'm not a fan of the "dies to removal" argument, but in the case of a card that requires 4 spells before doing anything, it does apply. And no, transforming the thing in response to a removal spell will not cause the removal to fizzle. The floor with this card is just so low (a more expensive Steel Wall) and it leaves so much time for the opponent to disrupt it that it just doesn't feel worth it to me.
So, technically, he does have evasion as he Evacuations the board, but that's just for that turn. Really though, how much trouble is casting instants and sorceries in a deck that all ready wants to do that? He's going to be much much better in legacy and modern than standard just because of the sheer amount of cheap cantrips, cheap cards in general, etc.
In modern, having a 0/4 for a few turns isn't the worst thing in the world for a control deck since the format is so creature-centric anyways. Then, you instant Evacuate the board when you need/want to. You also get a 7/8 on top of it. If people want to leave their removal in their deck G2 and G3 for this, that's all ready a nice bonus
Enough Modern regular posters said that Thing in the Ice was good to force me to test it...in Grixis Midrange (conventionally has trouble with aggro) and Blue Moon (conventionally has trouble with stuff that lands before Blood Moon does). Thing in the Ice was better than I thought...even considering that it was a 2-of in both decks, I play pretty conservatively so I hold up counterspells and then land Thing on Turn 4 or later, and I cast targeted discard such as Inquisition of Kozilek before Thing, even on Turn 2 or later. Admittedly, it often didn't flip or even lose ice counters in Blue Moon for several turns straight, but that's because my opponent is Moon-locked and I have Batterskull and Vedalken Shackles in hand.
And unlike Myth Realized, when it isn't a 4+/4+, it blocks worth a darn!
IMO, Thing will see Modern play...in relatively spell-heavy decks that play other creatures, yes, but it'll see play!
(Caution--all spells that will flip Thing immediately should not solely kill opposing non-Horror creatures, as Thing will flip in response and bounce said opposing creatures.)
When discussing this card, it would be helpful if everyone specifies what formats they are talking about. For example...
Limited -
Some sealed pools will support it, if drafted early enough, it will likely be awesome. It is at its least consistent, and least powerful in limited.
Standard -
I don't think Thing in the Ice is good in standard. Reflector mage is too punishing, and casting 4 instants/sorceries isn't actually an easy thing to do. Thing in the Ice has no protection or evasion, making it unsuitable as a finisher, and the tempo gains from the board bounce are unreliable due to 4 spells being hard to cast. The card is a bad as a top deck and has a very weak fail case. The card is powerful as a two mana board bounce effect, but it is not obviously playable and its design tends to pull in multiple directions. For all of these reasons, I doubt it will become a format defining card. It will likely be absurd out of the board for some decks in some matchups.
Modern -
Thing in the Ice passes the bolt test and the cantrips available make the flip a lot easier to get to. It is probably playable somewhere. Check control and tempo shells to find a home.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Wow, slow down your horses, 'blue tarmogoyf' is a little bit too much. There are almost no cards that can compare fairly to Tarmogoyf, simply because Tarmogoyf requires NO SETUP. You basically play him in any deck with creatures and spells and he is good, and he keeps being good for the rest of the game. This guy certainly is interesting, but he requires set up and doesn't slot in any type of deck and it is a bad top deck.
I also don't think it is legacy or modern playable, but time will tell.
'Goyf is only a better top-deck. An early 'Goyf can still be bolted, this cannot. This also has "flip-evasion" with its pseudo-evacuation, 'Goyf can be chumped all day. I'm not going to say this is better than 'Goyf, because it's not, but this is about as close as your going to get without a direct reprint.
Yeah, people saying it's a blue Goyf forget that Goyf is already an honorary blue card.
Anyway, this card is legit for the same reason Goyf is -- the condition that causes it to grow is a condition that you're going to meet anyway. It, like Goyf, requires no set-up at all. You dump it out there and then your blue deck does what blue decks do, and WHOOPS you have a 7/8.
Now, sure, it does "die to removal." Remember, folks, this means that a creature can be iced by the opponent without having accomplished anything. Thragtusk and the Titans are the poster children for cards that do NOT "die to removal" because even if you kill'em, they do something. Ditto for Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher in recent times. Thing in the Ice certainly can be killed and you lose your investment. But, really, you only made the same investment as you made in Tarmagoyf or Delver. It's worth it for a body this size.
All of that said, there is one big problem with Thing -- if your hand is gone and you're in topdeck mode, it's not going to do much except block 3/x's. But, if your blue deck is out of cards in hand and choking on fumes, you've lost anyway. Goyf is probably better overall because it can still save your butt in this situation. Even so, I don't see a point to Goyf if you're gonna run this. I mean, imagine this deck shell in Modern:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Thing in the Ice
4x Snapcaster Mage
34x ALL THE BLUE THINGS
That seems perfectly legitimate to me, without even needing to dip into other colors.
Taking turns right now plays
23 lands
7 enchants / artifact
30 spells
And the 30 spells are all Control and Time warps
Flip that thing will be so easy and abusable ahah
I'm a fan of all the flavor off this card, but I think even Elusive Tormentor is a better control finisher just because it's basically immune to removal if you leave some mana up.
Ok so if they have a removal spell, they have a removal spell. That stinks. But what if you play a t1 Discard spell take removal into t2 this thing. It will block early, making them want to play more guys to get around it. But then of course they don't want to, because then they'll all get bounced. Along with slamming for 7. So sure, this thing might not be as good as goyf, but few cards are. I think this card in a UBx control deck seems super strong, or possibly even the splinter twin deck's replacement wincon. I know I would like to get my playset ASAP, but i wouldn't mind if none of you bought it and the price lowered
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"Play to have fun, it's a game."
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
Wow, slow down your horses, 'blue tarmogoyf' is a little bit too much. There are almost no cards that can compare fairly to Tarmogoyf, simply because Tarmogoyf requires NO SETUP. You basically play him in any deck with creatures and spells and he is good, and he keeps being good for the rest of the game. This guy certainly is interesting, but he requires set up and doesn't slot in any type of deck and it is a bad top deck.
I also don't think it is legacy or modern playable, but time will tell.
I don't know about Modern, but in Legacy Tarmogoyf has one glaringflaw that The Thing doesn't have. Both are vulnerable to removal but only Goyf is vulnerable to removal and grave hate that's frequently played mainboard. In addition, The Thing's setup is not that hard to achieve either. Sure, it may not be as effortless as just having graveyards fill up naturally, but it's also considerably harder to disrupt.
Here's my two cents, though. Let's not be shallow and treat this new creature as just another fat booty for 2cmc. Instead, let's take some time to appreciate how great its personality is. What might really make this card preferable to Goyf in some archetypes is the fact that it really is a walking sweeper. You literally just have to play the game not only for it to be a stronger Goyf, but more importantly, to clear the whole board and leave it unblocked. Currently, no deck that packs Goyf has anything like that, which begs the question: Do they need it? Are decks like Eldrazi Aggro, for example, such a problem that it would justify replacing Goyf with it? And if not, would it be more successful in a new archetype of its own?
My first thoughts:
Delver
this
cantrips
basic counter suite
some Misdirection effects to deal with Abrupt Decay
maybe some spot removal like Dismember
Wasteland
And mono blue delver may even become a thing (no pun intended). I can only imagine not having to pay for duals to get Wastelanded and fetch lands Stifled while still playing something bigger than Merfolks if this ever works.
I'd be surprised if it reaches Snappy or Goyf levels; Thing is good, but not as reliable as those cards and will be printed in lagrer numbers. 5-10 deems to be the ceiling for a playable rare. Now, hangerback did reach a higher price, but nor that it pretty quickly wentv back down.
I'd be surprised if it reaches Snappy or Goyf levels; Thing is good, but not as reliable as those cards and will be printed in lagrer numbers. 5-10 deems to be the ceiling for a playable rare. Now, hangerback did reach a higher price, but nor that it pretty quickly wentv back down.
well printed in larger numbers no...tarmo got 3 print runs for example
i think it will be a 30/40 ish card
The main problem with this card is that it's a terrible top deck, and I think it will be that nail in the coffin that really keeps this guy down. I think he's good, should be played, and will probably see play, but late game it's pretty bad.
The main problem with this card is that it's a terrible top deck, and I think it will be that nail in the coffin that really keeps this guy down. I think he's good, should be played, and will probably see play, but late game it's pretty bad.
I'd be surprised if it reaches Snappy or Goyf levels; Thing is good, but not as reliable as those cards and will be printed in lagrer numbers. 5-10 deems to be the ceiling for a playable rare. Now, hangerback did reach a higher price, but nor that it pretty quickly wentv back down.
well printed in larger numbers no...tarmo got 3 print runs for example
i think it will be a 30/40 ish card
Ah, but set print runs matter, too. I cannot quickly locate accurate figures on how large the print run was for Future Sight, Modern Masters, and Modern Masters 2, but I do no think it's obvious at all that there are more Goyfs as a result of those printings than there would be of TITI. Goyf was a rare in Future Sight, a set printed before Magic exploded with the first Zendikar block, so this is supply is very small. It was then a mythic in two very limited print runs. TITI, by contrast, is going to be a mere rare in a big set that will be drafted for the entire life of the block, subject to MTGO redemption, and playable in standard for months.
Without numbers, we cannot know for sure, but I'd bet that we end up with more TITIs than Goyfs.
The main problem with this card is that it's a terrible top deck, and I think it will be that nail in the coffin that really keeps this guy down. I think he's good, should be played, and will probably see play, but late game it's pretty bad.
blue doesn't have top deck problems
No, no, it does sometimes. Ever watched a blue versus blue match? You can easily wind up in situations where the players have neutralized each other's control and then played some kind of tempo game where they're out of cards. The "late game bad topdeck" drawback is real, yes.
However, I don't think it's fatal; not for a card that Upheavals and swings for 7 on turn 2 or 3. Remember, unlike Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual which are legitimately useless in the late game, if you find TITIs in the late game, you can just put them on the table and look at them for awhile while you wait to draw more cards to turn it on. Another two cantrips or so and you can release the TITI; it's still a win condition, just not on its own.
Thats why I put it below Goyf; it's less reliable. That's a real problem. But it's still amazing.
The main problem with this card is that it's a terrible top deck, and I think it will be that nail in the coffin that really keeps this guy down. I think he's good, should be played, and will probably see play, but late game it's pretty bad.
In a world where you open this card in hand with all your lovely cantrips it's great, it's wonderful and it's all that BUT what if you tap out for it on T2 then it gets taken care of the following turn and you sit there with no back up copy? I would hate to top deck this card while I'm looking for a Verdict under pressure. I feel like some people are living the dream more than they should. It's a type of card that requires a lot of spells + mana in order flip it and people are acting as if it's a Tarmogoyf seriously? I'm sure that almost nobody have thought about how horrible mulligns would be in a strategy such as this since it requires a lot of cards to function. This card can not be a deck on it's own in a format like Modern. People buying all the copies they can find online is mind-blowing to me.
Ocean, that's probably fine, because this guy doesn't really warp how you play out your hand at all. If it dies to removal, then you're out 1U and a card. Same as if you had played Goyf, basically. You shouldn't be otherwise playing any differently.
And, it doesn't have to be out there early, either. It's a 7/8. It's gonna be the biggest creature out there even if it doesn't flip till turn 3 or 4. It's a tempo monster.
EDIT: Look at it this way. If you resolve this guy on Turn 2, what is your opponent's number 1 priority in life?
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So, technically, he does have evasion as he Evacuations the board, but that's just for that turn. Really though, how much trouble is casting instants and sorceries in a deck that all ready wants to do that? He's going to be much much better in legacy and modern than standard just because of the sheer amount of cheap cantrips, cheap cards in general, etc.
In modern, having a 0/4 for a few turns isn't the worst thing in the world for a control deck since the format is so creature-centric anyways. Then, you instant Evacuate the board when you need/want to. You also get a 7/8 on top of it. If people want to leave their removal in their deck G2 and G3 for this, that's all ready a nice bonus
It dies to removal. So does Tasigur, the Golden Fang. So does Creeping Tar Pit. So does Vendilion Clique. Luring removal isn't half-bad.
And unlike Myth Realized, when it isn't a 4+/4+, it blocks worth a darn!
IMO, Thing will see Modern play...in relatively spell-heavy decks that play other creatures, yes, but it'll see play!
(Caution--all spells that will flip Thing immediately should not solely kill opposing non-Horror creatures, as Thing will flip in response and bounce said opposing creatures.)
StandardArena:U/R Drakes
Modern
URStormUR
UBRDeath's ShadowUBR
Put this in a delver deck with some combo of probes/ponder/brainstorm/FoW/Daze/Etc. and its very easy to cast 4 instant/sorceries.
It's even playable easily in Modern, let alone Legacy.
StandardArena:U/R Drakes
Modern
URStormUR
UBRDeath's ShadowUBR
Limited -
Some sealed pools will support it, if drafted early enough, it will likely be awesome. It is at its least consistent, and least powerful in limited.
Standard -
I don't think Thing in the Ice is good in standard. Reflector mage is too punishing, and casting 4 instants/sorceries isn't actually an easy thing to do. Thing in the Ice has no protection or evasion, making it unsuitable as a finisher, and the tempo gains from the board bounce are unreliable due to 4 spells being hard to cast. The card is a bad as a top deck and has a very weak fail case. The card is powerful as a two mana board bounce effect, but it is not obviously playable and its design tends to pull in multiple directions. For all of these reasons, I doubt it will become a format defining card. It will likely be absurd out of the board for some decks in some matchups.
Modern -
Thing in the Ice passes the bolt test and the cantrips available make the flip a lot easier to get to. It is probably playable somewhere. Check control and tempo shells to find a home.
- Manite
Taking turns right now plays
23 lands
7 enchants / artifact
30 spells
And the 30 spells are all Control and Time warps
Flip that thing will be so easy and abusable ahah
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
Modern URB Grixis Shadow
EDH URG Animar
I don't know about Modern, but in Legacy Tarmogoyf has one glaring flaw that The Thing doesn't have. Both are vulnerable to removal but only Goyf is vulnerable to removal and grave hate that's frequently played mainboard. In addition, The Thing's setup is not that hard to achieve either. Sure, it may not be as effortless as just having graveyards fill up naturally, but it's also considerably harder to disrupt.
Here's my two cents, though. Let's not be shallow and treat this new creature as just another fat booty for 2cmc. Instead, let's take some time to appreciate how great its personality is. What might really make this card preferable to Goyf in some archetypes is the fact that it really is a walking sweeper. You literally just have to play the game not only for it to be a stronger Goyf, but more importantly, to clear the whole board and leave it unblocked. Currently, no deck that packs Goyf has anything like that, which begs the question: Do they need it? Are decks like Eldrazi Aggro, for example, such a problem that it would justify replacing Goyf with it? And if not, would it be more successful in a new archetype of its own?
My first thoughts:
Delver
this
cantrips
basic counter suite
some Misdirection effects to deal with Abrupt Decay
maybe some spot removal like Dismember
Wasteland
And mono blue delver may even become a thing (no pun intended). I can only imagine not having to pay for duals to get Wastelanded and fetch lands Stifled while still playing something bigger than Merfolks if this ever works.
No seriously, it's great and has a lot of potential, but you can't really compare it to goyf. They fulfill very different purposes.
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
well printed in larger numbers no...tarmo got 3 print runs for example
i think it will be a 30/40 ish card
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Ah, but set print runs matter, too. I cannot quickly locate accurate figures on how large the print run was for Future Sight, Modern Masters, and Modern Masters 2, but I do no think it's obvious at all that there are more Goyfs as a result of those printings than there would be of TITI. Goyf was a rare in Future Sight, a set printed before Magic exploded with the first Zendikar block, so this is supply is very small. It was then a mythic in two very limited print runs. TITI, by contrast, is going to be a mere rare in a big set that will be drafted for the entire life of the block, subject to MTGO redemption, and playable in standard for months.
Without numbers, we cannot know for sure, but I'd bet that we end up with more TITIs than Goyfs.
No, no, it does sometimes. Ever watched a blue versus blue match? You can easily wind up in situations where the players have neutralized each other's control and then played some kind of tempo game where they're out of cards. The "late game bad topdeck" drawback is real, yes.
However, I don't think it's fatal; not for a card that Upheavals and swings for 7 on turn 2 or 3. Remember, unlike Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual which are legitimately useless in the late game, if you find TITIs in the late game, you can just put them on the table and look at them for awhile while you wait to draw more cards to turn it on. Another two cantrips or so and you can release the TITI; it's still a win condition, just not on its own.
Thats why I put it below Goyf; it's less reliable. That's a real problem. But it's still amazing.
yeah that's right, forgot about that and i know nothing about the amount of prints sets got!
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Late game is when you pitch it to force.
Rally rotating kills the deck, who cares about fetches?
In a world where you open this card in hand with all your lovely cantrips it's great, it's wonderful and it's all that BUT what if you tap out for it on T2 then it gets taken care of the following turn and you sit there with no back up copy? I would hate to top deck this card while I'm looking for a Verdict under pressure. I feel like some people are living the dream more than they should. It's a type of card that requires a lot of spells + mana in order flip it and people are acting as if it's a Tarmogoyf seriously? I'm sure that almost nobody have thought about how horrible mulligns would be in a strategy such as this since it requires a lot of cards to function. This card can not be a deck on it's own in a format like Modern. People buying all the copies they can find online is mind-blowing to me.
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
GUSimic MerfolkUG
WUUW ControlUW
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
BUUB MillUB
Colorless Eldrazi Tron
WRBurnRW
GUSimic MerfolkUG
UMono U TurnsU
WGGenesis Wave EnchantressGW
And, it doesn't have to be out there early, either. It's a 7/8. It's gonna be the biggest creature out there even if it doesn't flip till turn 3 or 4. It's a tempo monster.
EDIT: Look at it this way. If you resolve this guy on Turn 2, what is your opponent's number 1 priority in life?