Wow, slow down your horses, 'blue tarmogoyf' is a little bit too much. There are almost no cards that can compare fairly to Tarmogoyf, simply because Tarmogoyf requires NO SETUP. You basically play him in any deck with creatures and spells and he is good, and he keeps being good for the rest of the game. This guy certainly is interesting, but he requires set up and doesn't slot in any type of deck and it is a bad top deck.
I also don't think it is legacy or modern playable, but time will tell.
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Wow, slow down your horses, 'blue tarmogoyf' is a little bit too much. There are almost no cards that can compare fairly to Tarmogoyf, simply because Tarmogoyf requires NO SETUP. You basically play him in any deck with creatures and spells and he is good, and he keeps being good for the rest of the game. This guy certainly is interesting, but he requires set up and doesn't slot in any type of deck and it is a bad top deck.
I also don't think it is legacy or modern playable, but time will tell.
'Goyf is only a better top-deck. An early 'Goyf can still be bolted, this cannot. This also has "flip-evasion" with its pseudo-evacuation, 'Goyf can be chumped all day. I'm not going to say this is better than 'Goyf, because it's not, but this is about as close as your going to get without a direct reprint.
Personally, I think this card is great. Having an early blocker, pseudo wrath, and finisher in one card is very strong, even if it requires some setup. And while Goyf doesn't require setup, the setup for this card is practically free. There are so many cheap interactive spells in modern and legacy, especially in blue, I doubt that this card won't see play. And while yes, it dies to Abrupt Decay , dismember, etc, so does goyf. I really think that shouldn't be the question, and rather how good is it if it sticks. Im planning on getting a playset for sure.
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"Play to have fun, it's a game."
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
Can someone clarify the ruling on the counter-removal — I have to remove a counter for it to flip right? If something removes them prior, then i cast an I/S, no-flip right?
Hex Parasite has some synergy, but spells are probably just more efficient.
Can someone clarify the ruling on the counter-removal — I have to remove a counter for it to flip right? If something removes them prior, then i cast an I/S, no-flip right?
Hex Parasite has some synergy, but spells are probably just more efficient.
Casting an instant or sorcery will put the trigger on the stack, and then it will check to see if it has 0 counters. So if you had Hex parasite and removed all the counters, you would still need to cast an instant/sorcery to trigger the flip.
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"Play to have fun, it's a game."
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
I think this will pair nicely with Hunted Horror. Flip this thing and keep your 7/7 and 7/8 and the drawback of Hunted Horror is gone because they are tokens. At least that's how I read it. I think this card might make a Grixis or Dimir Horror deck possibly in modern with these two cards. At minimum it's a fun kitchen table interaction.
Wow, slow down your horses, 'blue tarmogoyf' is a little bit too much. There are almost no cards that can compare fairly to Tarmogoyf, simply because Tarmogoyf requires NO SETUP. You basically play him in any deck with creatures and spells and he is good, and he keeps being good for the rest of the game. This guy certainly is interesting, but he requires set up and doesn't slot in any type of deck and it is a bad top deck.
I also don't think it is legacy or modern playable, but time will tell.
'Goyf is only a better top-deck. An early 'Goyf can still be bolted, this cannot. This also has "flip-evasion" with its pseudo-evacuation, 'Goyf can be chumped all day. I'm not going to say this is better than 'Goyf, because it's not, but this is about as close as your going to get without a direct reprint.
Yeah, people saying it's a blue Goyf forget that Goyf is already an honorary blue card.
Anyway, this card is legit for the same reason Goyf is -- the condition that causes it to grow is a condition that you're going to meet anyway. It, like Goyf, requires no set-up at all. You dump it out there and then your blue deck does what blue decks do, and WHOOPS you have a 7/8.
Now, sure, it does "die to removal." Remember, folks, this means that a creature can be iced by the opponent without having accomplished anything. Thragtusk and the Titans are the poster children for cards that do NOT "die to removal" because even if you kill'em, they do something. Ditto for Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher in recent times. Thing in the Ice certainly can be killed and you lose your investment. But, really, you only made the same investment as you made in Tarmagoyf or Delver. It's worth it for a body this size.
All of that said, there is one big problem with Thing -- if your hand is gone and you're in topdeck mode, it's not going to do much except block 3/x's. But, if your blue deck is out of cards in hand and choking on fumes, you've lost anyway. Goyf is probably better overall because it can still save your butt in this situation. Even so, I don't see a point to Goyf if you're gonna run this. I mean, imagine this deck shell in Modern:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Thing in the Ice
4x Snapcaster Mage
34x ALL THE BLUE THINGS
That seems perfectly legitimate to me, without even needing to dip into other colors.
Honestly, cards that are very good in your starting seven but mostly dead as a topdeck have been overvalued for years and years - I can't think of too many that ended up seeing play. This one might be good enough when drawn early to compensate its uselessness if drawn late, but I'm somewhat skeptical. A topdecked Delver could still flip in time for his first attack - that's not happening here.
Yes, but your delver isn't surviving in combat, either. This is a rare instance where a big-booty 2 drop has this type of upside. If Ludevic's test subject was a non-costed ability, it would most certainly have been used, this is just a fixed version. I won't argue this is a bad late game top-deck, but only if your hand is empty, or close too. And it is still a 2-drop, that feeds off of spells you're going to be casting anyways as you'll be looking to either close out, or stop the bleeding. It turns those, while still extremely relevant, late game draw spells into an actual threat. It has potential, we'll have to wait and see.
Honestly, cards that are very good in your starting seven but mostly dead as a topdeck have been overvalued for years and years - I can't think of too many that ended up seeing play. This one might be good enough when drawn early to compensate its uselessness if drawn late, but I'm somewhat skeptical. A topdecked Delver could still flip in time for his first attack - that's not happening here.
I agree with Buff - you are right to call into question what this card does if you topdeck with an empty hand. That's when it is as its worst, and why a Goyf probably still edges this out for a deck that wants consistency. But Goyf is a VERY HIGH BAR, and this isn't far behind. Even if you topdeck it late game with no gas, it will translate any otherwise useless spells you draw (duress, thoughtseize, cantrips, whatever) into potential win conditions.
Another aspect to this card that people aren't immediately recognizing is the fact that, once this hits the field with any open mana, your opponent will panic and either (1) start to play around it by intentionally holding back on bringing creatures out to the field or (2) just doing everything he or she can to kill it ASAP. For control players, either option is good: (1) means that your life total is under less pressure and (2) means that your opponent is going to run out of gas sooner because of a measly 2-drop.
I think this will pair nicely with Hunted Horror. Flip this thing and keep your 7/7 and 7/8 and the drawback of Hunted Horror is gone because they are tokens. At least that's how I read it. I think this card might make a Grixis or Dimir Horror deck possibly in modern with these two cards. At minimum it's a fun kitchen table interaction.
Chasm Skulker gets value off the cantrips you use to flip the Kraken and Possessed Aven kills your opponents' Krakens after you get to threshold from your cantrips.
And of course you have to play one Skaab Ruinator as a late game finisher.
I guess Possessed Aven isn't Modern legal, bummer. It's more cute than efficient anyway.
As far as Thing in the ice vs. Tarmogoyf debate, they both have strengths and weaknesses, it just depends on what type of deck can capitalize on the strengths and minimize the weaknesses. 'Goyfs weakness is grave hate and chump blockers. This is a tad slow and offers no offensive punch unless flipped. The main point here is that neither card leaves you open to a blow out, with those 2 cards you are expecting them to be target with removal, and both benefit to dodging it.
I think the bounce effect on the flip-side was unnecessary but it's what makes this card good TBH. Regardless of whether you like or hate the card, you want a playset of it.
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Modern
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
I think the bounce effect on the flip-side was unnecessary but it's what makes this card good TBH. Regardless of whether you like or hate the card, you want a playset of it.
Amen that's why I might consider to pre-ordering 4 of them
I have been testing a bit with the card in my jeskai prowess/delver build today and it has a TON of play. I have no doubt that I didn't get the absolute most out of the card, but it really performed well. I'm not ready to put it into goyf territory yet, but the card is good. I will echo what others have stated, that I don't think this card necessarily fits in an super aggressive build because of the bounce affect and the time it takes to trigger. However, in a tempo or midrange build this guy is really cool. The bounce trigger on the flip side is actually really useful and offers a ton of versatility. It helped several times bouncing abzan company's entire board. In addition, playing a snapcaster/abbot into the final spell and then putting said snapcaster/abbot back into your hand is an absolute beating.
It will take a second to find the best home for this card, but it has too much utility not to see play in my opinion.
Another aspect to this card that people aren't immediately recognizing is the fact that, once this hits the field with any open mana, your opponent will panic and either (1) start to play around it by intentionally holding back on bringing creatures out to the field or (2) just doing everything he or she can to kill it ASAP. For control players, either option is good: (1) means that your life total is under less pressure and (2) means that your opponent is going to run out of gas sooner because of a measly 2-drop.
Yep, this is exactly what I was thinking. This is great in a control deck. The best way to play this card is get it down to 1 counter left so that you have them in a bad situation. They don't want to try to kill it because if you play something in response, it flips, the kill spell fizzles, and it evacuates the field. But they also don't want to play into it too much since it could flip anyway and waste their time. Meanwhile, the blue player is casting things at opponents eot to build up hand strength for the long game.
Another aspect to this card that people aren't immediately recognizing is the fact that, once this hits the field with any open mana, your opponent will panic and either (1) start to play around it by intentionally holding back on bringing creatures out to the field or (2) just doing everything he or she can to kill it ASAP. For control players, either option is good: (1) means that your life total is under less pressure and (2) means that your opponent is going to run out of gas sooner because of a measly 2-drop.
Yep, this is exactly what I was thinking. This is great in a control deck. The best way to play this card is get it down to 1 counter left so that you have them in a bad situation. They don't want to try to kill it because if you play something in response, it flips, the kill spell fizzles, and it evacuates the field. But they also don't want to play into it too much since it could flip anyway and waste their time. Meanwhile, the blue player is casting things at opponents eot to build up hand strength for the long game.
It won't fizzle removal (though it will avoid a dismember), as flipping the card doesn't change the object in play. Origins walkers are the exception, as they specifically exile the creature before flipping. You still will get the evacuate effect, though.
It seems like a lot of trouble for a creature with no built-in protection or evasion. I'm not a fan of the "dies to removal" argument, but in the case of a card that requires 4 spells before doing anything, it does apply. And no, transforming the thing in response to a removal spell will not cause the removal to fizzle. The floor with this card is just so low (a more expensive Steel Wall) and it leaves so much time for the opponent to disrupt it that it just doesn't feel worth it to me.
There's no denying how remarkable this card is from all perspectives. However, regarding the Tarmygoyf discussion and the general hype here, I can't help reminding everyone that this has been done before, here at MTGS. Where a card is "the new Blue Goyf" during preview season, the prices skyrocket on a rare, and a few weeks down the road no one is talking about it anymore. Wasn't Skaab Ruinator one such card? Pre-ordered from $25+, now a dollar mythic?
People are really taking the flip aspect of this card for granted. Folks, it is not that easy to cast four instants/sorceries in an effective fashion. If you REALLY build your deck around it you may do it in 2 turns, which implies having a considerably greater amount of non-creature spells than creatures spells in your deck, making your opponent's removal target your soon-to-be-kraken more often than you would like.
I'm not saying it is not a nice card, but let me say that again: goyf starts doing things from the moment he hits play, and actually it is not hard at all to have a bolt-proof goyf even on turn 2 (fetchland + discard spell + discard a creature from opponent) or something in those lines. And every goyf that you draw on the late game comes as a HUGE beater, this guy comes as a 0/4. He will not be nowhere near as common as tarmogoyf in eternal formats, no way. I can see maybe in legacy a temur delver shell testing this one out, and in modern maybe a UR tempo list or something. As a control card I honestly don't like that card AT ALL (especially in eternal formats with abrupt decay).
People think this card just lag a bit behind goyf, when it doesn't come close. That is not really a problem though, it can still see play, but I would bet it would see as much play as a Siege Rhino.
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Except it can still be flipped in response, making for an even bigger swing in life.
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I also don't think it is legacy or modern playable, but time will tell.
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'Goyf is only a better top-deck. An early 'Goyf can still be bolted, this cannot. This also has "flip-evasion" with its pseudo-evacuation, 'Goyf can be chumped all day. I'm not going to say this is better than 'Goyf, because it's not, but this is about as close as your going to get without a direct reprint.
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
Modern URB Grixis Shadow
EDH URG Animar
Hex Parasite has some synergy, but spells are probably just more efficient.
Casting an instant or sorcery will put the trigger on the stack, and then it will check to see if it has 0 counters. So if you had Hex parasite and removed all the counters, you would still need to cast an instant/sorcery to trigger the flip.
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
Modern URB Grixis Shadow
EDH URG Animar
Yeah, people saying it's a blue Goyf forget that Goyf is already an honorary blue card.
Anyway, this card is legit for the same reason Goyf is -- the condition that causes it to grow is a condition that you're going to meet anyway. It, like Goyf, requires no set-up at all. You dump it out there and then your blue deck does what blue decks do, and WHOOPS you have a 7/8.
Now, sure, it does "die to removal." Remember, folks, this means that a creature can be iced by the opponent without having accomplished anything. Thragtusk and the Titans are the poster children for cards that do NOT "die to removal" because even if you kill'em, they do something. Ditto for Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher in recent times. Thing in the Ice certainly can be killed and you lose your investment. But, really, you only made the same investment as you made in Tarmagoyf or Delver. It's worth it for a body this size.
All of that said, there is one big problem with Thing -- if your hand is gone and you're in topdeck mode, it's not going to do much except block 3/x's. But, if your blue deck is out of cards in hand and choking on fumes, you've lost anyway. Goyf is probably better overall because it can still save your butt in this situation. Even so, I don't see a point to Goyf if you're gonna run this. I mean, imagine this deck shell in Modern:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Thing in the Ice
4x Snapcaster Mage
34x ALL THE BLUE THINGS
That seems perfectly legitimate to me, without even needing to dip into other colors.
Yes, but your delver isn't surviving in combat, either. This is a rare instance where a big-booty 2 drop has this type of upside. If Ludevic's test subject was a non-costed ability, it would most certainly have been used, this is just a fixed version. I won't argue this is a bad late game top-deck, but only if your hand is empty, or close too. And it is still a 2-drop, that feeds off of spells you're going to be casting anyways as you'll be looking to either close out, or stop the bleeding. It turns those, while still extremely relevant, late game draw spells into an actual threat. It has potential, we'll have to wait and see.
I agree with Buff - you are right to call into question what this card does if you topdeck with an empty hand. That's when it is as its worst, and why a Goyf probably still edges this out for a deck that wants consistency. But Goyf is a VERY HIGH BAR, and this isn't far behind. Even if you topdeck it late game with no gas, it will translate any otherwise useless spells you draw (duress, thoughtseize, cantrips, whatever) into potential win conditions.
From what the goyf was like
And knownign that there are ways to play instants and spells uber fast aka flip at like turn 4 or 5 easily
Definatlely will get a play set of these bad boys while cheap.
Chasm Skulker gets value off the cantrips you use to flip the Kraken and Possessed Aven kills your opponents' Krakens after you get to threshold from your cantrips.
And of course you have to play one Skaab Ruinator as a late game finisher.
I guess Possessed Aven isn't Modern legal, bummer. It's more cute than efficient anyway.
Competitive: GW Hatebears - UG Infect - BGW Liege Rhino
Casual: GR Titan Ramp - BR Aggro
WIP: BUW Control Mill
Amen that's why I might consider to pre-ordering 4 of them
It will take a second to find the best home for this card, but it has too much utility not to see play in my opinion.
Yep, this is exactly what I was thinking. This is great in a control deck. The best way to play this card is get it down to 1 counter left so that you have them in a bad situation. They don't want to try to kill it because if you play something in response, it flips, the kill spell fizzles, and it evacuates the field. But they also don't want to play into it too much since it could flip anyway and waste their time. Meanwhile, the blue player is casting things at opponents eot to build up hand strength for the long game.
It won't fizzle removal (though it will avoid a dismember), as flipping the card doesn't change the object in play. Origins walkers are the exception, as they specifically exile the creature before flipping. You still will get the evacuate effect, though.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I'm not saying it is not a nice card, but let me say that again: goyf starts doing things from the moment he hits play, and actually it is not hard at all to have a bolt-proof goyf even on turn 2 (fetchland + discard spell + discard a creature from opponent) or something in those lines. And every goyf that you draw on the late game comes as a HUGE beater, this guy comes as a 0/4. He will not be nowhere near as common as tarmogoyf in eternal formats, no way. I can see maybe in legacy a temur delver shell testing this one out, and in modern maybe a UR tempo list or something. As a control card I honestly don't like that card AT ALL (especially in eternal formats with abrupt decay).
People think this card just lag a bit behind goyf, when it doesn't come close. That is not really a problem though, it can still see play, but I would bet it would see as much play as a Siege Rhino.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).