First of all, an imminent 7/8 isn't pressure? There is plenty of pressure there and no its not a control finisher because it is a dumb beatstick but as goyf has shown innumerable times a dumb beatstick is often times enough.
As to the bob comparison, TiTi might very well keep you alive by blocking that early goyf, nacatl or guide until later in the game when if it flips and you can protect it or you opponent has run out of removal, it will win the game.
Actually, I'd say TiTi is a better late game card than bob because it can stop a reasonable sized body and is four instants away from becoming crushing and its only 2 mana so later game you'll have mana open to instant or sorcery.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
First of all, an imminent 7/8 isn't pressure? There is plenty of pressure there and no its not a control finisher because it is a dumb beatstick but as goyf has shown innumerable times a dumb beatstick is often times enough.
As to the bob comparison, TiTi might very well keep you alive by blocking that early goyf, nacatl or guide until later in the game when if it flips and you can protect it or you opponent has run out of removal, it will win the game.
Actually, I'd say TiTi is a better late game card than bob because it can stop a reasonable sized body and is four instants away from becoming crushing and its only 2 mana so later game you'll have mana open to instant or sorcery.
An 0/4 Is not pressure, this is not an 7/8, it takes 4 other cards and the mana to cast them, before that, it does nothing, so NO thing does not pressures anything, an 0/4 that may or may not become a 7/8 does not pressure me in the least, my life total remains intact, ditto my planeswalkers, I see you playing this and I'm happy that you didn't play something actually threatening.
If your plan for your 2 drop is "blocking an early goyf", you should probably play wall of omens instead, Bob gives you an extra card every turn and actually attacks, this just "blocks an early goyf".
My argument is not that this is a control finisher, my argument is that no aggro, control or tempo deck wants this, you don't want it in aggro or tempo because it actually DOES NOT pressures the opponent, and you don't want it in control because it is a lousy blocker, it trades with nothing and if it dies you get nothing. It is bad at attacking and bad at blocking.
Would a straight up 2 mana 0/4 be playable in modern? No, it is not, wall of omens sees play because it draws you a card up front. How many tokens on average do you get from a young pyromancer? No more than 3, so NO, you are not gonna be reliably flipping this, and the fact that you get nothing out of this until the moment you play the fourth spell makes this for all intents and purposes, a do nothing card.
Delver is a legitimate threat. They tend to flip a lot.
More importantly, they need zero extra resources to flip, and can flip in time for the first attack.
I'm still having trouble remembering an expensive, playable card that was this utterly dead as a top deck. Even a second Thing drawn after 2-3 spells played is going to be very slow to flip.
Noble Hierarch, unless you considering swinging for 1 the next turn to be a good draw? Spellskite? I mean, I can't tell if you're just being disingenuous, but there are a ton of expensive playable cards that are utterly dead as a top deck in all but the most narrow of situations. And it's not like the Thing is even as dead a topdeck as something like Spellskite is. It's just a more delayed payoff. Unless you're playing it in the wrong deck, most of your instants and sorceries should help you chain into another that same turn, and if the Thing happens to eat some removal before flipping, fine, it only cost 2 mana anyhow, and that's one less removal card for your opponent to use against your next threat.
Remember a little card called Treasure Cruise? How unreliable was it at getting 7 cards to the yard. Oh wait, it was banned because it did it CONSISTENTLY. You don't think 4 instants or sorceries can be done with a tempo style build? And its not a 0/4. Please the first time you see it across from you, treat it as just an 0/4 and see what happens.
YP has no staying power. It dies to everything.
And blocking a 3/4 goyf consistently is no small thing. And more often then not goyf will sit there until at least turn 4 or 5.
But I don't have to sell it anymore. people have decided its solid enough to try at $15-20 a piece.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Remember a little card called Treasure Cruise? How unreliable was it at getting 7 cards to the yard. Oh wait, it was banned because it did it CONSISTENTLY. You don't think 4 instants or sorceries can be done with a tempo style build? And its not a 0/4. Please the first time you see it across from you, treat it as just an 0/4 and see what happens.
YP has no staying power. It dies to everything.
And blocking a 3/4 goyf consistently is no small thing. And more often then not goyf will sit there until at least turn 4 or 5.
But I don't have to sell it anymore. people have decided its solid enough to try at $15-20 a piece.
Trasure cruise is broken mostly because of fetchlands, and the big difference is that it draws you 3 cards when you play it. But yeah... sure, good luck with the next Skaab ruinator.
If you cast ice spells like Frost Breath and Ice Cage to thaw TitI out, does that mean you're basically shaving the ice off of it and throwing it on your opponents' creatures to freeze them instead? Does TitI extend sea food decks to now include frozen sea food?
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
If you cast ice spells like Frost Breath and Ice Cage to thaw TitI out, does that mean you're basically shaving the ice off of it and throwing it on your opponents' creatures to freeze them instead? Does TitI extend sea food decks to now include frozen sea food?
I think TITI may end up being good in standard after all. Just this morning, we got two new spoiled cards that seem to fit into the same style of deck along with TITI. Consider the following cards...
Rise From the Tides 5U
Sorcery
Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield for each instant and sorcery card in your graveyard.
Harness the Storm 2R
Enchantment
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell from your hand, you may cast target card with the same name as that spell from your graveyard. (you still pay its costs.)
...Rise from the tides is an efficient and powerful army in a can. In a properly designed deck, it should be easy to make Rise produce five tokens on turn 6, and it only scales up as the game progresses. Meaning your opponent will need to be able to answer an army in order to beat the deck. Harness in the storm is just a potentially powerful card advantage engine that lets you keep casting instant and sorcery spells later in the game, letting you flip TITI's that you draw later in the game. In order to beat this deck, opponents will need to answer the CA granted by Harness the Storm, the Army produced by Rise from the Tides, and the Beef produced by TITI. This is rather difficult thing to do. To be clear, the deck I'm imagining is a kindof midrange control deck with a strong instant/sorcery subtheme and at least two very different game winning threats in Rise from the Tides and TiTi.
EDIT: Also Stormchaser Mage could be great in this deck as well, because it blocks and attacks profitably when combined with the cheap instant and sorcery spells you need to take full advantage of Harness the Storm.
EDIT.EDIT: To be clear, I still don't think TITI warrants its current 20$ price tag. Rares just don't cost that much while they are in standard. Consider the Fetchlands which all see 4of play in every format. The Highest the fetchlands got was barely above 15 dollars. TITI is overvalued.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I agree with everything you said harlannowick. A deck with those components might not be top tier in standard, but it is at least playable. We could even throw brain in the jar into the mix. EoT rise from the tides sounds like fun Day's Undoing may also find a home in it.
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Breathe in.
Breathe out.
Let your passion give you strength for the task at hand... And let the bashing begin!
I don't care about whether or not it's overvalued or worth its price tag.
I do care about whether it will see play or not.
In modern, specifically, a precedent has been set for creatures of 2-mana or less to be played that provide utility, cumulative advantage or threat.
This seems like it has a place in the format, no doubt, but really the defining thing will be whether or not it has a place in a deck. There are many cards which in a vacuum could see some modern play purely on their "power level" (hate the phrase), but don't have a deck or the support to actually get there.
Fingers crossed this finds a deck. Card is absolutely amazing favour and style. I want it to do well because it's a design homerun 100%.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Persecute when titi left one counter anyone? I'm thinking of building a UB control deck in modern that forgo counter and focus on discarding like duress, inquisition and thoughtseize with titi and persecute as well as some vampire hexmage.. Any ideas for such build?
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Current Deck(s): TappedOut Would love to have more input to improve!
Persecute when titi left one counter anyone? I'm thinking of building a UB control deck in modern that forgo counter and focus on discarding like duress, inquisition and thoughtseize with titi and persecute as well as some vampire hexmage.. Any ideas for such build?
Thing only transforms if the last counter is removing from casting a spell. Hexmage doesn't work.
First of all, an imminent 7/8 isn't pressure? There is plenty of pressure there and no its not a control finisher because it is a dumb beatstick but as goyf has shown innumerable times a dumb beatstick is often times enough.
As to the bob comparison, TiTi might very well keep you alive by blocking that early goyf, nacatl or guide until later in the game when if it flips and you can protect it or you opponent has run out of removal, it will win the game.
Actually, I'd say TiTi is a better late game card than bob because it can stop a reasonable sized body and is four instants away from becoming crushing and its only 2 mana so later game you'll have mana open to instant or sorcery.
An 0/4 Is not pressure, this is not an 7/8, it takes 4 other cards and the mana to cast them, before that, it does nothing, so NO thing does not pressures anything, an 0/4 that may or may not become a 7/8 does not pressure me in the least, my life total remains intact, ditto my planeswalkers, I see you playing this and I'm happy that you didn't play something actually threatening.
If your plan for your 2 drop is "blocking an early goyf", you should probably play wall of omens instead, Bob gives you an extra card every turn and actually attacks, this just "blocks an early goyf".
My argument is not that this is a control finisher, my argument is that no aggro, control or tempo deck wants this, you don't want it in aggro or tempo because it actually DOES NOT pressures the opponent, and you don't want it in control because it is a lousy blocker, it trades with nothing and if it dies you get nothing. It is bad at attacking and bad at blocking.
Would a straight up 2 mana 0/4 be playable in modern? No, it is not, wall of omens sees play because it draws you a card up front. How many tokens on average do you get from a young pyromancer? No more than 3, so NO, you are not gonna be reliably flipping this, and the fact that you get nothing out of this until the moment you play the fourth spell makes this for all intents and purposes, a do nothing card.
Just let them have their 20 standard rare. It's not as bad as you say since the bounce effect is reasonable even if it dies after flipping, but I would take wall over this guy 9 times out of ten. That won't stop a couple of people from winning with the card because their opponents don't know how to play properly, and then coming back from fnm to tell us how amazing it is. Magic has this weird thing where because people think a card/deck is good a bunch of people play said card/deck, and then because so many people are playing it it shows up in top 8's leading to more people thinking it's good. Best example I can think of is that UR sphinx's tutelage deck that lost like 40% of it games but it took months before people stopped playing it. I knew a kid who ended up quitting magic because he dropped like $300 dollars on the deck and then went 0-5 2 fnm's in a row.
Noble Hierarch, unless you considering swinging for 1 the next turn to be a good draw? Spellskite?
Your examples aren't very good. Heirarch is so expensive precisely because it's not a dead topdeck. It is usually has an immediate impact on the board through combat and can help break board stalls. Spellskite is a sideboard card and against the decks it comes in a against it is almost always a good topdeck. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek are both bad topdecks and expensive. The difference is that if you cast them early you almost always get exceptional payoff in the form of disruption and information. The card you are defending might as well just be a pyromancer's ascension. Atleast that card is hard to kill.
The old "remember when a lot of people miss evaluated a card" argument doesn't give you more credibility since the general public is not very good at evaluating cards. As someone already pointed out cruise generally delved away 3+ fetchlands when it was cast. It was also only run as a 2-3 of because it was difficult to set up in a timely fashion. Basically with cruise the ideal is to have it spend the early game where it is a dead card safe in your deck and then draw it once it is good. This dude has to just sit their like a duck waiting hoping it won't get removed and is almost useless after turn 2-3. I can respect that you gave reasoning for your opinion though. There are too many people on this site that never give an explanation besides I was right about X card so I am always right (it used to be desecration demon then it was cruise, then jace, and then some other sets came out but people still wouldn't shut up about jace).
I, as probably many, strongly disagree with tenzoku's thesis. I assume TiTi will be very, very strong in different shells. It blocks early threats, and you don't have to pay additional mana or something to make it work. Just cast four spells. Besides that, it's not only a 7/8 (despite staying a 2-mana-investment, of course), it wipes the whole board as well. I am really looking forward to play this card.
From my tests (in modern) so far:
It's horrible in a tempo deck because it takes too long for it start generating damage. I played against delver decks that used it quite often on XMage, often it just sat there while they were holding a hand of counterspells and it could not interact with my board so I just played nothing and kept hitting them for a few every turn, this also allowed me to reach the lategame more easily (I played midrange) where my better spells just trump the tempo deck. I never lost to a TiTi based tempo deck in 6-ish matches.
It's very meh in control because it doesn't generate immediate value (like wall of omens or kitchen finks) and turns on your opponent's spot removal. Normally Abrupt Decay is very bad against control, but if they play TiTi it gets turned on. I don't think control in modern wants this. Maybe from the sideboard this can do some work here as the slowness and bad topdeck argument hurt the least in control decks.
I tried it in midrange and I think it could possibly work there but it is very hard to get a critical mass of spells in midrange (and if you do they're probably token generators which are a nonbo). The fact that it is a terrible topdeck is also very bad for midrange. Maybe grixis midrange can make it happen, but that would mean they probably move away from delve threats and parents Nalaar. I'm not sure whether that is worth it (I'm no expert on the deck).
I, as probably many, strongly disagree with tenzoku's thesis. I assume TiTi will be very, very strong in different shells. It blocks early threats, and you don't have to pay additional mana or something to make it work. Just cast four spells. Besides that, it's not only a 7/8 (despite staying a 2-mana-investment, of course), it wipes the whole board as well. I am really looking forward to play this card.
From my tests (in modern) so far:
It's horrible in a tempo deck because it takes too long for it start generating damage. I played against delver decks that used it quite often on XMage, often it just sat there while they were holding a hand of counterspells and it could not interact with my board so I just played nothing and kept hitting them for a few every turn, this also allowed me to reach the lategame more easily (I played midrange) where my better spells just trump the tempo deck. I never lost to a TiTi based tempo deck in 6-ish matches.
It's very meh in control because it doesn't generate immediate value (like wall of omens or kitchen finks) and turns on your opponent's spot removal. Normally Abrupt Decay is very bad against control, but if they play TiTi it gets turned on. I don't think control in modern wants this. Maybe from the sideboard this can do some work here as the slowness and bad topdeck argument hurt the least in control decks.
I tried it in midrange and I think it could possibly work there but it is very hard to get a critical mass of spells in midrange (and if you do they're probably token generators which are a nonbo). The fact that it is a terrible topdeck is also very bad for midrange. Maybe grixis midrange can make it happen, but that would mean they probably move away from delve threats and parents Nalaar. I'm not sure whether that is worth it (I'm no expert on the deck).
That's what I'm talking about, I honestly haven't tested it, because I have no interest in doing so, as I think the card is not strong enough, plus modern's current meta is probably too hostile. The obvious weaknesses of this card are the following:
- It takes too long to have an impact on the board or pressure the opponent in any shape or form, this for me is what disqualifies the card in tempo decks.
- The front side is just an 0/4 blocker, which are not bad stats for a blocker, but wall of omens outclasses this as a blocker by a mile
- It's too unreliable as a finisher for a control deck, if you somehow stabilized, you want a finisher that closes the game really fast, before your opponent gets back into the game, this card doesn't do that, the combination of those, make me not wanting this card in a control deck, as it doesn't do either of the jobs I want it to do, how I want it to do them.
- Finally it's not just a bad top deck, it's abysmal, as you stated, some spell based midrange deck might want this, but then again, what are you cutting for it? certainly not spells, and the few creatures you already run in that kind of deck (snapcaster mage, young Pyromancer, even mentor), outclass this card easily.
In short, the card is certainly interesting, but it falls short of being playable, at least in non rotating formats.
What is the question? If it will transform if you remove all the counters form it in some way and then cast an instant or sorcery? If so, yes it will transform.
The ability will trigger and when it resolves it will do as much as it can. So it cannot remove an ice counter from it but the transform only checks if titi has no ice counters on it, not if you removed a counter from it.
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I see Thing In Ice as a DrawGo all star. Like the old Tog deck. 0/4 blocker is main purpose. Yes Wall is arguably better by virtue of its Cantrip. But Thing in Ice has other qualities that Draw Go is looking for as well. If you cast it turn Two it is a controlled board wipe by turn four. The flip into an attacker that's just a bonus.
From my tests (in modern) so far:
It's horrible in a tempo deck because it takes too long for it start generating damage. I played against delver decks that used it quite often on XMage, often it just sat there while they were holding a hand of counterspells and it could not interact with my board so I just played nothing and kept hitting them for a few every turn, this also allowed me to reach the lategame more easily (I played midrange) where my better spells just trump the tempo deck. I never lost to a TiTi based tempo deck in 6-ish matches.
It's very meh in control because it doesn't generate immediate value (like wall of omens or kitchen finks) and turns on your opponent's spot removal. Normally Abrupt Decay is very bad against control, but if they play TiTi it gets turned on. I don't think control in modern wants this. Maybe from the sideboard this can do some work here as the slowness and bad topdeck argument hurt the least in control decks.
I tried it in midrange and I think it could possibly work there but it is very hard to get a critical mass of spells in midrange (and if you do they're probably token generators which are a nonbo). The fact that it is a terrible topdeck is also very bad for midrange. Maybe grixis midrange can make it happen, but that would mean they probably move away from delve threats and parents Nalaar. I'm not sure whether that is worth it (I'm no expert on the deck).
Your experience seems to fit with my evaluation, I suspect TITI will see standard play in "a kindof midrange control deck with a strong instant/sorcery subtheme" We've started to see some other pieces for the deck that could end up being good enough like Rise from the Tides and maybe harness the storm. The deck doesn't look good enough to me yet, but it could get there. In modern, TITI just doesn't seem to do anything any decks are interested in.
I see Thing In Ice as a DrawGo all star. Like the old Tog deck. 0/4 blocker is main purpose. Yes Wall is arguably better by virtue of its Cantrip. But Thing in Ice has other qualities that Draw Go is looking for as well. If you cast it turn Two it is a controlled board wipe by turn four. The flip into an attacker that's just a bonus.
No draw go deck is going to be flipping TITI by turn 4 reliably. The cards just don't exist to support that plan in modern or standard. In legacy, maybe, but TITI is awful in legacy because too many decks just ignore it completely.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
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As to the bob comparison, TiTi might very well keep you alive by blocking that early goyf, nacatl or guide until later in the game when if it flips and you can protect it or you opponent has run out of removal, it will win the game.
Actually, I'd say TiTi is a better late game card than bob because it can stop a reasonable sized body and is four instants away from becoming crushing and its only 2 mana so later game you'll have mana open to instant or sorcery.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
An 0/4 Is not pressure, this is not an 7/8, it takes 4 other cards and the mana to cast them, before that, it does nothing, so NO thing does not pressures anything, an 0/4 that may or may not become a 7/8 does not pressure me in the least, my life total remains intact, ditto my planeswalkers, I see you playing this and I'm happy that you didn't play something actually threatening.
If your plan for your 2 drop is "blocking an early goyf", you should probably play wall of omens instead, Bob gives you an extra card every turn and actually attacks, this just "blocks an early goyf".
My argument is not that this is a control finisher, my argument is that no aggro, control or tempo deck wants this, you don't want it in aggro or tempo because it actually DOES NOT pressures the opponent, and you don't want it in control because it is a lousy blocker, it trades with nothing and if it dies you get nothing. It is bad at attacking and bad at blocking.
Would a straight up 2 mana 0/4 be playable in modern? No, it is not, wall of omens sees play because it draws you a card up front. How many tokens on average do you get from a young pyromancer? No more than 3, so NO, you are not gonna be reliably flipping this, and the fact that you get nothing out of this until the moment you play the fourth spell makes this for all intents and purposes, a do nothing card.
Noble Hierarch, unless you considering swinging for 1 the next turn to be a good draw? Spellskite? I mean, I can't tell if you're just being disingenuous, but there are a ton of expensive playable cards that are utterly dead as a top deck in all but the most narrow of situations. And it's not like the Thing is even as dead a topdeck as something like Spellskite is. It's just a more delayed payoff. Unless you're playing it in the wrong deck, most of your instants and sorceries should help you chain into another that same turn, and if the Thing happens to eat some removal before flipping, fine, it only cost 2 mana anyhow, and that's one less removal card for your opponent to use against your next threat.
YP has no staying power. It dies to everything.
And blocking a 3/4 goyf consistently is no small thing. And more often then not goyf will sit there until at least turn 4 or 5.
But I don't have to sell it anymore. people have decided its solid enough to try at $15-20 a piece.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I think it will be unplayable or it will broke the format in two pieces. Im leaning towards the first one.
It has more cons than pros, its still a sweet card though
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Flavor success well done. The card is now viable.
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
GUSimic MerfolkUG
WUUW ControlUW
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
BUUB MillUB
Colorless Eldrazi Tron
WRBurnRW
GUSimic MerfolkUG
UMono U TurnsU
WGGenesis Wave EnchantressGW
Rise From the Tides 5U
Sorcery
Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield for each instant and sorcery card in your graveyard.
Harness the Storm 2R
Enchantment
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell from your hand, you may cast target card with the same name as that spell from your graveyard. (you still pay its costs.)
...Rise from the tides is an efficient and powerful army in a can. In a properly designed deck, it should be easy to make Rise produce five tokens on turn 6, and it only scales up as the game progresses. Meaning your opponent will need to be able to answer an army in order to beat the deck. Harness in the storm is just a potentially powerful card advantage engine that lets you keep casting instant and sorcery spells later in the game, letting you flip TITI's that you draw later in the game. In order to beat this deck, opponents will need to answer the CA granted by Harness the Storm, the Army produced by Rise from the Tides, and the Beef produced by TITI. This is rather difficult thing to do. To be clear, the deck I'm imagining is a kindof midrange control deck with a strong instant/sorcery subtheme and at least two very different game winning threats in Rise from the Tides and TiTi.
EDIT: Also Stormchaser Mage could be great in this deck as well, because it blocks and attacks profitably when combined with the cheap instant and sorcery spells you need to take full advantage of Harness the Storm.
EDIT.EDIT: To be clear, I still don't think TITI warrants its current 20$ price tag. Rares just don't cost that much while they are in standard. Consider the Fetchlands which all see 4of play in every format. The Highest the fetchlands got was barely above 15 dollars. TITI is overvalued.
- Manite
Breathe out.
Let your passion give you strength for the task at hand... And let the bashing begin!
I do care about whether it will see play or not.
In modern, specifically, a precedent has been set for creatures of 2-mana or less to be played that provide utility, cumulative advantage or threat.
This seems like it has a place in the format, no doubt, but really the defining thing will be whether or not it has a place in a deck. There are many cards which in a vacuum could see some modern play purely on their "power level" (hate the phrase), but don't have a deck or the support to actually get there.
Fingers crossed this finds a deck. Card is absolutely amazing favour and style. I want it to do well because it's a design homerun 100%.
TappedOut
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Thing only transforms if the last counter is removing from casting a spell. Hexmage doesn't work.
Legacy: D+T
Oldschool: BW Deadguy BW
Magic player/collector since 1994
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TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Just let them have their 20 standard rare. It's not as bad as you say since the bounce effect is reasonable even if it dies after flipping, but I would take wall over this guy 9 times out of ten. That won't stop a couple of people from winning with the card because their opponents don't know how to play properly, and then coming back from fnm to tell us how amazing it is. Magic has this weird thing where because people think a card/deck is good a bunch of people play said card/deck, and then because so many people are playing it it shows up in top 8's leading to more people thinking it's good. Best example I can think of is that UR sphinx's tutelage deck that lost like 40% of it games but it took months before people stopped playing it. I knew a kid who ended up quitting magic because he dropped like $300 dollars on the deck and then went 0-5 2 fnm's in a row.
Your examples aren't very good. Heirarch is so expensive precisely because it's not a dead topdeck. It is usually has an immediate impact on the board through combat and can help break board stalls. Spellskite is a sideboard card and against the decks it comes in a against it is almost always a good topdeck. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek are both bad topdecks and expensive. The difference is that if you cast them early you almost always get exceptional payoff in the form of disruption and information. The card you are defending might as well just be a pyromancer's ascension. Atleast that card is hard to kill.
The old "remember when a lot of people miss evaluated a card" argument doesn't give you more credibility since the general public is not very good at evaluating cards. As someone already pointed out cruise generally delved away 3+ fetchlands when it was cast. It was also only run as a 2-3 of because it was difficult to set up in a timely fashion. Basically with cruise the ideal is to have it spend the early game where it is a dead card safe in your deck and then draw it once it is good. This dude has to just sit their like a duck waiting hoping it won't get removed and is almost useless after turn 2-3. I can respect that you gave reasoning for your opinion though. There are too many people on this site that never give an explanation besides I was right about X card so I am always right (it used to be desecration demon then it was cruise, then jace, and then some other sets came out but people still wouldn't shut up about jace).
From my tests (in modern) so far:
It's horrible in a tempo deck because it takes too long for it start generating damage. I played against delver decks that used it quite often on XMage, often it just sat there while they were holding a hand of counterspells and it could not interact with my board so I just played nothing and kept hitting them for a few every turn, this also allowed me to reach the lategame more easily (I played midrange) where my better spells just trump the tempo deck. I never lost to a TiTi based tempo deck in 6-ish matches.
It's very meh in control because it doesn't generate immediate value (like wall of omens or kitchen finks) and turns on your opponent's spot removal. Normally Abrupt Decay is very bad against control, but if they play TiTi it gets turned on. I don't think control in modern wants this. Maybe from the sideboard this can do some work here as the slowness and bad topdeck argument hurt the least in control decks.
I tried it in midrange and I think it could possibly work there but it is very hard to get a critical mass of spells in midrange (and if you do they're probably token generators which are a nonbo). The fact that it is a terrible topdeck is also very bad for midrange. Maybe grixis midrange can make it happen, but that would mean they probably move away from delve threats and parents Nalaar. I'm not sure whether that is worth it (I'm no expert on the deck).
- It takes too long to have an impact on the board or pressure the opponent in any shape or form, this for me is what disqualifies the card in tempo decks.
- The front side is just an 0/4 blocker, which are not bad stats for a blocker, but wall of omens outclasses this as a blocker by a mile
- It's too unreliable as a finisher for a control deck, if you somehow stabilized, you want a finisher that closes the game really fast, before your opponent gets back into the game, this card doesn't do that, the combination of those, make me not wanting this card in a control deck, as it doesn't do either of the jobs I want it to do, how I want it to do them.
- Finally it's not just a bad top deck, it's abysmal, as you stated, some spell based midrange deck might want this, but then again, what are you cutting for it? certainly not spells, and the few creatures you already run in that kind of deck (snapcaster mage, young Pyromancer, even mentor), outclass this card easily.
In short, the card is certainly interesting, but it falls short of being playable, at least in non rotating formats.
Did this ever get answered?
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TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
What is the question? If it will transform if you remove all the counters form it in some way and then cast an instant or sorcery? If so, yes it will transform.
The ability will trigger and when it resolves it will do as much as it can. So it cannot remove an ice counter from it but the transform only checks if titi has no ice counters on it, not if you removed a counter from it.
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Rules Advisor
Your experience seems to fit with my evaluation, I suspect TITI will see standard play in "a kindof midrange control deck with a strong instant/sorcery subtheme" We've started to see some other pieces for the deck that could end up being good enough like Rise from the Tides and maybe harness the storm. The deck doesn't look good enough to me yet, but it could get there. In modern, TITI just doesn't seem to do anything any decks are interested in.
No draw go deck is going to be flipping TITI by turn 4 reliably. The cards just don't exist to support that plan in modern or standard. In legacy, maybe, but TITI is awful in legacy because too many decks just ignore it completely.
- Manite
Think of a UG/x shell with this, counterspells, and rancor.
*drool
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unfortunately no. i haven't played magic for quite some time.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube