The same breakdown from last year had the top 20 cards, top 20 creatures, walkers, spells, and the % of decks the khans cards were showing up in
8 out of the top 20 cards with 5 sets in rotation were from the new set, 5/18 widely played (10%+) creatures, only 6 walkers saw wide play of which 2 were khans, 7 of the top 19 spells. Their breakdown on most played cards stops early because its sorted by # of copies rather than % decks running it, but I think its safe to say there were at least 20 khans cards seeing play in 10%+ of decks, 10 of which were in at least 25%+ of decks. This is all ignoring lands.
Try to sort the other breakdown to these same metrics if you want, but I think the results will say what we already know, gideon is the only winner, radiant flames runner up, and beyond the reprints, like they say, the drop off is swift and sharp and pitiful
+1
That seems like a reasonable demonstration that BFZ has impacted its standard to a lesser extent than KTK impacted its standard.
As far as EDH goes, there are plenty of good cards for edh. Some examples...
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
The same breakdown from last year had the top 20 cards, top 20 creatures, walkers, spells, and the % of decks the khans cards were showing up in
8 out of the top 20 cards with 5 sets in rotation were from the new set, 5/18 widely played (10%+) creatures, only 6 walkers saw wide play of which 2 were khans, 7 of the top 19 spells. Their breakdown on most played cards stops early because its sorted by # of copies rather than % decks running it, but I think its safe to say there were at least 20 khans cards seeing play in 10%+ of decks, 10 of which were in at least 25%+ of decks. This is all ignoring lands.
Try to sort the other breakdown to these same metrics if you want, but I think the results will say what we already know, gideon is the only winner, radiant flames runner up, and beyond the reprints, like they say, the drop off is swift and sharp and pitiful
+1
That seems like a reasonable demonstration that BFZ has impacted its standard to a lesser extent than KTK impacted its standard.
As far as EDH goes, there are plenty of good cards for edh. Some examples...
I mean, yeah...if you have no Magic Collection and no access to older cards that do the job of 90% of every card you listed better, for about the same price...I mean Ugin's Insight? Painful Truths? Part the Waterveil? Planar Outburst? Or just Rhystic Study/Divining Top/Sylvan Library, Skeletal Scrying/Sign in Blood/Ambition's Cost, Time Warp/Temporal Mastery/Time Reversal, Any white board-wipe ever?
That's not to say this has nothing for Commander, it certainly does. But you're reaching to make the list bigger than it should be.
One problem I see with the set is They Powered down Landfall and ally creatures to much making them barley playable. Ally creatures were barley playable the last go around. The creatures in this set are mostly terrible for constructed.
I mean, yeah...if you have no Magic Collection and no access to older cards that do the job of 90% of every card you listed better, for about the same price...I mean Ugin's Insight? Painful Truths? Part the Waterveil? Planar Outburst? Or just Rhystic Study/Divining Top/Sylvan Library, Skeletal Scrying/Sign in Blood/Ambition's Cost, Time Warp/Temporal Mastery/Time Reversal, Any white board-wipe ever?
That's not to say this has nothing for Commander, it certainly does. But you're reaching to make the list bigger than it should be.
I'm not saying these are the best versions of the effects that have ever been printed, but pretending each of these isn't playable is ridiculous. Because of the highlander nature of Commander, it is frequently correct to be running the 10th best version of an effect, because you actually need 12 versions of the effect and are already running the 9 best. Every card you just mentioned is definitively playable to amazing in the right deck...
Painful Truths - This is better in every 3+ color black deck than every other version of the effect (draw K lose K) that you mentioned. Skeletal scrying isn't a fair comparison as a draw X spell with different costs. Sign in blood is worse simply because it doesn't draw as many cards. The actual effect of Painful Truths (+2 CA) is twice the size of Sign in blood's (+1 CA) effect. Ambitions cost just costs more. In every 3+ color black deck, Painful truths is basically an auto include. There is very little reason not to run a 3-mana draw 3 effect in edh when it is available to you.
Part the waterveil - There are numerous commander decks that simply want all of the extra turn effects. The most well known is Narset.
Planar Outburst - I freely admit that this card is a stretch. There will still be decks that are correct to run it because they want 10+ boardwipes, but no such deck springs to mind.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I mean, yeah...if you have no Magic Collection and no access to older cards that do the job of 90% of every card you listed better, for about the same price...I mean Ugin's Insight? Painful Truths? Part the Waterveil? Planar Outburst? Or just Rhystic Study/Divining Top/Sylvan Library, Skeletal Scrying/Sign in Blood/Ambition's Cost, Time Warp/Temporal Mastery/Time Reversal, Any white board-wipe ever?
That's not to say this has nothing for Commander, it certainly does. But you're reaching to make the list bigger than it should be.
1. None of the things you compared to Ugin's Insight really apply. Study can be completely stopped by intelligent opponents, Top can't draw more than one card and can't move anything off the top without shuffle effects, and Library can't be used in non-green decks. A fairer comparison would be something like Tidings or Dig Through Time, both of which I'd play over Insight. I think your point's valid; those just weren't very useful examples.
2. In a 3-color deck, Painful Truths is better than every card you listed. Scrying gets shut down by graveyard hate (which is everywhere), Sign in Blood maxes at two cards and demands BB, and Ambition's Cost is more expensive for the same effect. Mardu in particular will take Truths any day over pretty much any other draw spell in its colors. Draw three for 3 is really, really strong. Sooner or later people are going to notice that.
3. Part the Waterveil is pretty weak, but if you're playing extra turn spells, you usually want to be playing a critical mass of them for chaining turns with copy effects. Not everyone has the money to drop on Time Warp/Temporal Mastery/Temporal Manipulation/Walk the Aeons. Seriously, this is the least expensive extra turn card money-wise there is, and it offers a unique secondary effect that a mono-blue commander can potentially make work.
4. Yeah, I got nothing on that one. Outburst is just garbage.
5. I'm surprised you didn't go after Nissa's Renewal. There's no reason for a deck to be playing this unless it's built entirely around lands, and even then it's not remotely efficient for either of the things it does. Just play Collective Voyage and get five lands at a minimum for the same cost instead.
I dont really personally understand the BFZ hate. Obviously every agrees gideon is good. I cant see why anyone who even splashes black in a deck wouldnt play drana (which is very fast and powerful), radiant flames and painful truths are both very playable as stated above, trangress the mind and complete disregard both easily eliminate issues like deathmist raptor, ruinous path is a worse heros downfall agreed but is still playable. Undergrowth champion is nearly unkillable without the right removal especially when playing ramp, dragonmaster outcast sees more play now than in its original set and arguing that it doesnt count is like saying thoughtseize didnt count and is ridiculous. Kiora is basically an auto include in any kind of sultai deck because it fuels your graveyard and your hand.....i could keep going but im not sure it would matter to anyone. I am a casual kitchen table player except i have won a couple prerelease touraments, one of them being the BFZ prerelease, and i personally love the set. There is a lot here if you are willing to try to use them, or build something of your own
Not sure why some people think Planar outburst is bad. If you are playing Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper edh, or say a green white deck with Nissa, Worldwaker or anything that makes creature lands like Life and Limb having the option to still wrath without killing your own lands is pretty nice.
Also if you have ever played against Kamahl, Fist of Krosa being able to wrath without waiting for them to tap out is amazing.
Also in regards to this thread topic, at least one card has created it's own deck, one that even pros are saying is a puzzle to correctly make.
Heros downfall, whip, anger of the gods, gray merchant, magma jet, firedrinker, a few spots of nykthos, bident, polka dots, boon satyr, stormbreath, caryatid, of course thoughtseize everywhere, soldier of the pantheon, and thassa popped her head in along with a few other god spotting and some of the walkers like xenagos. And fleecemane competed with VoR.
I don't have the full detailed breakdown I could google for the previous two, but theros plainly had more impact than BFZ
In hind site Theros was a decent set I know a lot of people didn't like the Greek theme but I did. I didn't like the theme of Kamigawa to me it seemed like a rip off of legend of the five rings a game that was really popular at the time. I think we get better landfall and ally creatures in the next set which will help BFZ come into its own.
I mean, yeah...if you have no Magic Collection and no access to older cards that do the job of 90% of every card you listed better, for about the same price...I mean Ugin's Insight? Painful Truths? Part the Waterveil? Planar Outburst? Or just Rhystic Study/Divining Top/Sylvan Library, Skeletal Scrying/Sign in Blood/Ambition's Cost, Time Warp/Temporal Mastery/Time Reversal, Any white board-wipe ever?
That's not to say this has nothing for Commander, it certainly does. But you're reaching to make the list bigger than it should be.
I'm not saying these are the best versions of the effects that have ever been printed, but pretending each of these isn't playable is ridiculous. Because of the highlander nature of Commander, it is frequently correct to be running the 10th best version of an effect, because you actually need 12 versions of the effect and are already running the 9 best. Every card you just mentioned is definitively playable to amazing in the right deck...
Painful Truths - This is better in every 3+ color black deck than every other version of the effect (draw K lose K) that you mentioned. Skeletal scrying isn't a fair comparison as a draw X spell with different costs. Sign in blood is worse simply because it doesn't draw as many cards. The actual effect of Painful Truths (+2 CA) is twice the size of Sign in blood's (+1 CA) effect. Ambitions cost just costs more. In every 3+ color black deck, Painful truths is basically an auto include. There is very little reason not to run a 3-mana draw 3 effect in edh when it is available to you.
Part the waterveil - There are numerous commander decks that simply want all of the extra turn effects. The most well known is Narset.
Planar Outburst - I freely admit that this card is a stretch. There will still be decks that are correct to run it because they want 10+ boardwipes, but no such deck springs to mind.
Ugin's insight could be played. Painful truths and part the waterveil also have their places. Now, let's see:
Nissa's Renewal? Oblivion Sower? Retreat to Emeria? The aformentioned planar outburst? ALL the blighted lands? What? The only ones decent in commander are the blue and the green one. Mortuary mire? Really?
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The argument which I have made, and which you were actually responding to in this thread was that this set is bad because it adds little substantial to standard beside rehashes of cards we've already seen dozens of times before, many at higher qualities and lower rarities than they're presented here.
Ugin's insight could be played. Painful truths and part the waterveil also have their places. Now, let's see:
Nissa's Renewal? Oblivion Sower? Retreat to Emeria? The aformentioned planar outburst? ALL the blighted lands? What? The only ones decent in commander are the blue and the green one. Mortuary mire? Really?
The blighted lands offer useful effects at very little cost. If you are in 1-2 colors, there is very little reason not to run the lands even though they often don't do much. The white land can be particularly powerful in token decks or decks that care about life. The black land gives black decks a way to interact with Voltron decks (at very little opportunity cost) that typically grant hexproof/shroud to their generals. The red land can pick off a planeswalker or utility creature. Morturary Mire, like the blighted lands, offers a useful effect at very very little cost. Sure, a lot of the time it will just be a bad swamp, but in the other games, it brings back a game winning card. Its a solid utility land. O-Sower is just Solemn Simulcrum's bigger brother. It is a fine card in any deck interested in getting to 10 mana and actually is amazing in Maelstrom Wanderer in particular as it is both decent attacker and it ramps you into your next cast of Maelstrom wanderer. Nissa's renewal is mediocre, but there aren't that many big ramp effects in edh and the decks that want one typically want more. The closest comparison here is Boundless realms, which I think we can all agree is a solid card in commander. Retreat to Emeria is a great card in tokens as it is both an overrun and a token producer. It is also a card that is disrupting standard. Bant Tokens was the best deck at the pro tour because Retreat to Emeria can be so strong. Being a token producing overrun effect makes the card always good.
Planar outburst may not be the best white boardwipe ever printed, but it is reasonable to play it in decks that want a lot of board wipes.
I'm not arguing that these cards are broken, I'm arguing that they are playable (that is to say that theirs exists a well tuned deck in which it is correct to run the card) in the multiplayer format that is EDH.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Ugin's insight could be played. Painful truths and part the waterveil also have their places. Now, let's see:
Nissa's Renewal? Oblivion Sower? Retreat to Emeria? The aformentioned planar outburst? ALL the blighted lands? What? The only ones decent in commander are the blue and the green one. Mortuary mire? Really?
I'll just jump in here to say Oblivion Sower is a really solid addition to my Kozilek EDH deck. While every color has better ramping options in its history to choose from, decks with colorless generals actually got a lot of new toys to play with in BFZ. I know this is a corner case, but I'd just say that you'll probably see a number of the colorless cards get played in EDH. Aside from Oblivion Sower I'd say two of the more playable colorless cards are:
Scour from Existence while expensive to cast, is the first instant speed catch-all answer any deck can run.
Hedron Archive is also probably going to see some play, as it is a compromise between Mind Stone and Dreamstone Hedron that seems to hit the sweet spot of ramping just enough to be useful in the early game while also not being a total dead draw in the late game.
PS. Now I think that I agree, that doing this is so much effort which is truly not worth it because someone again comes with "you're like stupid wall" without presenting any real reason.
The reason was in the argument, again. You're taking sets that aren't just iconic, revered, or saw loads heavier play than BFZ by leaps and bounds, but had major, permanent effects on Legacy, Modern, Commander, and Standard. BFZ can't hold a candle to even the lamest (imo) set there, SOM in terms of what it brings to every format's table. The fact that you're still not getting that is just proving the point harder.
Sam Black broke it. He had the best deck for the Pro Tour and because it didn't Top 8 there's a decent chance it continues to fly under the radar. Among the four who played the deck, Bant Tokens had a 75% win rate and Ben Stark called it the best Standard deck he's played since Caw Blade."
Ugin's insight could be played. Painful truths and part the waterveil also have their places. Now, let's see:
Nissa's Renewal? Oblivion Sower? Retreat to Emeria? The aformentioned planar outburst? ALL the blighted lands? What? The only ones decent in commander are the blue and the green one. Mortuary mire? Really?
I'll just jump in here to say Oblivion Sower is a really solid addition to my Kozilek EDH deck. While every color has better ramping options in its history to choose from, decks with colorless generals actually got a lot of new toys to play with in BFZ. I know this is a corner case, but I'd just say that you'll probably see a number of the colorless cards get played in EDH. Aside from Oblivion Sower I'd say two of the more playable colorless cards are:
Scour from Existence while expensive to cast, is the first instant speed catch-all answer any deck can run.
Hedron Archive is also probably going to see some play, as it is a compromise between Mind Stone and Dreamstone Hedron that seems to hit the sweet spot of ramping just enough to be useful in the early game while also not being a total dead draw in the late game.
I agree with Hedron Archive. It is an interesting card and will see a lot of play in EDH. Scour from Existence is terrible, even for decks that are in a color that can't answer a particular type of permanent (like monored with enchantments). Oblivion Sower would be great if his ability was ETB, allowing him to be abused. Considering that it is only cast I can't think of one non-colorless tuned deck that would run it.
Ugin's insight could be played. Painful truths and part the waterveil also have their places. Now, let's see:
Nissa's Renewal? Oblivion Sower? Retreat to Emeria? The aformentioned planar outburst? ALL the blighted lands? What? The only ones decent in commander are the blue and the green one. Mortuary mire? Really?
The blighted lands offer useful effects at very little cost. If you are in 1-2 colors, there is very little reason not to run the lands even though they often don't do much. The white land can be particularly powerful in token decks or decks that care about life. The black land gives black decks a way to interact with Voltron decks (at very little opportunity cost) that typically grant hexproof/shroud to their generals. The red land can pick off a planeswalker or utility creature. Morturary Mire, like the blighted lands, offers a useful effect at very very little cost. Sure, a lot of the time it will just be a bad swamp, but in the other games, it brings back a game winning card. Its a solid utility land. O-Sower is just Solemn Simulcrum's bigger brother. It is a fine card in any deck interested in getting to 10 mana and actually is amazing in Maelstrom Wanderer in particular as it is both decent attacker and it ramps you into your next cast of Maelstrom wanderer. Nissa's renewal is mediocre, but there aren't that many big ramp effects in edh and the decks that want one typically want more. The closest comparison here is Boundless realms, which I think we can all agree is a solid card in commander. Retreat to Emeria is a great card in tokens as it is both an overrun and a token producer. It is also a card that is disrupting standard. Bant Tokens was the best deck at the pro tour because Retreat to Emeria can be so strong. Being a token producing overrun effect makes the card always good.
Planar outburst may not be the best white boardwipe ever printed, but it is reasonable to play it in decks that want a lot of board wipes.
I'm not arguing that these cards are broken, I'm arguing that they are playable (that is to say that theirs exists a well tuned deck in which it is correct to run the card) in the multiplayer format that is EDH.
I disagree. These cards would not be played in tuned edh decks, they could be used for people that aren't very knowledgeable about the card pool or can't afford the better options. Wanderer does not need a card like Oblivion Sower when it can run Primeval Titan, Consecrated Sphix, Inferno Titan and tons and tons of better six-drops in his colors. Same case can be made to every other card you mentioned, they are not worth it putting in just to have the 'copy number K from this effect' like is the case for Part the Waterveil and extra turns.
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Eh, the top 5 list published by Wizard are mostly hype lists to highlight new cards/ new deck archetypes.
For example, I would say that all the 4-5 color list are enabled due to the Fetch Lands, not the Battle Lands.
Bottom line is, do not use these list as proof, as they only have minor basis in actual data and do not tell enough
of the story.
Not that I blame Wizard, who wants their lists to state that Siege Rhino is a good card for the millionth time!
Sam Black broke it. He had the best deck for the Pro Tour and because it didn't Top 8 there's a decent chance it continues to fly under the radar. Among the four who played the deck, Bant Tokens had a 75% win rate and Ben Stark called it the best Standard deck he's played since Caw Blade."
He may have had the best deck for the protour, that does not mean this is even one of the best archetypes in standard. I'm not gonna comment on the ridiculous stretch that is to compare this deck with Caw Blade (a deck that had JTMS in it, in standard). Just gonna state the obvious that you can have a deck that is good for the meta of a small tournament and have a good win percentage. Once people know what the deck does it gets harder to use it properly (virulent plague). In any case it is interesting to see a somewhat Rogue deck at the moment doing well. One detail: the core of the deck is almost all non-BFZ cards, not to say that the ones that are there aren't important, but it seems that secure the wastes is a pretty big deal for it.
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Eh, the top 5 list published by Wizard are mostly hype lists to highlight new cards/ new deck archetypes.
For example, I would say that all the 4-5 color list are enabled due to the Fetch Lands, not the Battle Lands.
Bottom line is, do not use these list as proof, as they only have minor basis in actual data and do not tell enough
of the story.
Not that I blame Wizard, who wants their lists to state that Siege Rhino is a good card for the millionth time!
No, fetchlands are not even close to being as good as fixing as battle lands, specially when you need to cast spells of different colors on curve, we had fetchlands for over a year and 4-5 color decks were never actually viable, It's battle lands + fetchlans that allow this nonsense, but even if you only had one or the other, the mana fixing would be much better with battle lands and without fetchlands, than the other way around.
And again, the best performing deck of the ProTour (75% win rate) is a deck full of BfZ cards, not many people played it, because it wasn't an obvious deck, but it definitely tells you that BfZ is not as "underpowered" as many people on this forum would have you believe.
Eh, the top 5 list published by Wizard are mostly hype lists to highlight new cards/ new deck archetypes.
For example, I would say that all the 4-5 color list are enabled due to the Fetch Lands, not the Battle Lands.
Bottom line is, do not use these list as proof, as they only have minor basis in actual data and do not tell enough
of the story.
Not that I blame Wizard, who wants their lists to state that Siege Rhino is a good card for the millionth time!
No, fetchlands are not even close to being as good as fixing as battle lands, specially when you need to cast spells of different colors on curve, we had fetchlands for over a year and 4-5 color decks were never actually viable, It's battle lands + fetchlans that allow this nonsense, but even if you only had one or the other, the mana fixing would be much better with battle lands and without fetchlands, than the other way around.
And again, the best performing deck of the ProTour (75% win rate) is a deck full of BfZ cards, not many people played it, because it wasn't an obvious deck, but it definitely tells you that BfZ is not as "underpowered" as many people on this forum would have you believe.
"Best Preforming deck at the PT" is a BIG stretch. That deck posts a 8-2 Record. Last time I checked there were several decks above that.
Sam Black broke it. He had the best deck for the Pro Tour and because it didn't Top 8 there's a decent chance it continues to fly under the radar. Among the four who played the deck, Bant Tokens had a 75% win rate and Ben Stark called it the best Standard deck he's played since Caw Blade."
He may have had the best deck for the protour, that does not mean this is even one of the best archetypes in standard. I'm not gonna comment on the ridiculous stretch that is to compare this deck with Caw Blade (a deck that had JTMS in it, in standard). Just gonna state the obvious that you can have a deck that is good for the meta of a small tournament and have a good win percentage. Once people know what the deck does it gets harder to use it properly (virulent plague). In any case it is interesting to see a somewhat Rogue deck at the moment doing well. One detail: the core of the deck is almost all non-BFZ cards, not to say that the ones that are there aren't important, but it seems that secure the wastes is a pretty big deal for it.
I don't think this deck is as powerful as cawblade, mainly because I haven't tested it, and more than likely it's not as powerful, but if players as good as Sam Black, Tom Martel and Ben Stark think this deck is the real deal, people should take notice instead of dismissing it, and the deck wouldn't be possible without Gideon and retreat to Emeria.
And for the record, CawBlade could also be hated out, mono red won many tournaments this way, every deck can be hated out of any given metagame, and still if the most backbreaking card you can think of is virulent plague, that's not likely to save you, there are enough in color answers to it that it's not as backbreaking as you think.
I disagree. These cards would not be played in tuned edh decks, they could be used for people that aren't very knowledgeable about the card pool or can't afford the better options. Wanderer does not need a card like Oblivion Sower when it can run Primeval Titan, Consecrated Sphix, Inferno Titan and tons and tons of better six-drops in his colors. Same case can be made to every other card you mentioned, they are not worth it putting in just to have the 'copy number K from this effect' like is the case for Part the Waterveil and extra turns.
You don't know what you are talking about if you think PrimeTime and inferno titan are better in Maelstrom Wanderer than O-Sower. PrimeTime is banned, so its totally unplayable. Inferno titan is basically just a beater. If you are lucky, it will pick off a utility creature, but it will usually just be chumped or ignored until the next board wipe hits the field or someone goes infinite. You are much better off hitting O-Sower and picking up another ~1.6 lands, getting you to your next cast of Maelstrom Wanderer. It also works to be hard cast on 6 mana in order to ramp you into your first cast of Wanderer. C-Sphinx is legitimately great, but the choice isn't between C-sphinx and O-Sower, you run both.
And again, the best performing deck of the ProTour (75% win rate) is a deck full of BfZ cards, not many people played it, because it wasn't an obvious deck, but it definitely tells you that BfZ is not as "underpowered" as many people on this forum would have you believe.
"Best Preforming deck at the PT" is a BIG stretch. That deck posts a 8-2 Record. Last time I checked there were several decks above that.
Bant Tokens was played by a grand total of 4 people, 3 of whom went 8-2. The deck had an overall match win rate of 75% (24-8) across the four players who played it far higher than any other deck that was taken to the pro tour. Now, A portion of that win rate is going to be due to no one being ready for it, and another portion is due to being played exclusively by amazing players. But it was still the definitively best performing deck at the pro tour.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
That seems like a reasonable demonstration that BFZ has impacted its standard to a lesser extent than KTK impacted its standard.
As far as EDH goes, there are plenty of good cards for edh. Some examples...
- Manite
I mean, yeah...if you have no Magic Collection and no access to older cards that do the job of 90% of every card you listed better, for about the same price...I mean Ugin's Insight? Painful Truths? Part the Waterveil? Planar Outburst? Or just Rhystic Study/Divining Top/Sylvan Library, Skeletal Scrying/Sign in Blood/Ambition's Cost, Time Warp/Temporal Mastery/Time Reversal, Any white board-wipe ever?
That's not to say this has nothing for Commander, it certainly does. But you're reaching to make the list bigger than it should be.
I'm not saying these are the best versions of the effects that have ever been printed, but pretending each of these isn't playable is ridiculous. Because of the highlander nature of Commander, it is frequently correct to be running the 10th best version of an effect, because you actually need 12 versions of the effect and are already running the 9 best. Every card you just mentioned is definitively playable to amazing in the right deck...
- Manite
1. None of the things you compared to Ugin's Insight really apply. Study can be completely stopped by intelligent opponents, Top can't draw more than one card and can't move anything off the top without shuffle effects, and Library can't be used in non-green decks. A fairer comparison would be something like Tidings or Dig Through Time, both of which I'd play over Insight. I think your point's valid; those just weren't very useful examples.
2. In a 3-color deck, Painful Truths is better than every card you listed. Scrying gets shut down by graveyard hate (which is everywhere), Sign in Blood maxes at two cards and demands BB, and Ambition's Cost is more expensive for the same effect. Mardu in particular will take Truths any day over pretty much any other draw spell in its colors. Draw three for 3 is really, really strong. Sooner or later people are going to notice that.
3. Part the Waterveil is pretty weak, but if you're playing extra turn spells, you usually want to be playing a critical mass of them for chaining turns with copy effects. Not everyone has the money to drop on Time Warp/Temporal Mastery/Temporal Manipulation/Walk the Aeons. Seriously, this is the least expensive extra turn card money-wise there is, and it offers a unique secondary effect that a mono-blue commander can potentially make work.
4. Yeah, I got nothing on that one. Outburst is just garbage.
5. I'm surprised you didn't go after Nissa's Renewal. There's no reason for a deck to be playing this unless it's built entirely around lands, and even then it's not remotely efficient for either of the things it does. Just play Collective Voyage and get five lands at a minimum for the same cost instead.
UBDragonlord Silumgar WGKarametra, God of Harvests
BRUNekusar, the Mindrazer BGMazirek, Kraul Death Priest
URMelek, Izzet Paragon UGPrime Speaker Zegana
WUHanna, Ship's Navigator BWUSydri, Galvanic Genius
WUBRGSliver Queen RBBladewing the Risen
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council RGXenagos, God of Revels
GFreyalise, Llanowar's Fury RWAurelia, the Warleader
RIb Halfheart, Goblin Tactician BDrana, Liberator of Malakir
UAzami, Lady of Scrolls WNahiri, the Lithomancer
WBGDoran, the Siege Tower CEmrakul, the Promised End
Also if you have ever played against Kamahl, Fist of Krosa being able to wrath without waiting for them to tap out is amazing.
Also in regards to this thread topic, at least one card has created it's own deck, one that even pros are saying is a puzzle to correctly make.
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http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptths13/Top_Standard_Decks
Heros downfall, whip, anger of the gods, gray merchant, magma jet, firedrinker, a few spots of nykthos, bident, polka dots, boon satyr, stormbreath, caryatid, of course thoughtseize everywhere, soldier of the pantheon, and thassa popped her head in along with a few other god spotting and some of the walkers like xenagos. And fleecemane competed with VoR.
I don't have the full detailed breakdown I could google for the previous two, but theros plainly had more impact than BFZ
Ugin's insight could be played. Painful truths and part the waterveil also have their places. Now, let's see:
Nissa's Renewal? Oblivion Sower? Retreat to Emeria? The aformentioned planar outburst? ALL the blighted lands? What? The only ones decent in commander are the blue and the green one. Mortuary mire? Really?
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Right. It would have needed something like a a fatty that drains life, a creature that recurs a spell from the graveyard or maybe a flying, vigilance, haste creature?
Kinda hard to argue when the criteria for originality are vague at best.
The blighted lands offer useful effects at very little cost. If you are in 1-2 colors, there is very little reason not to run the lands even though they often don't do much. The white land can be particularly powerful in token decks or decks that care about life. The black land gives black decks a way to interact with Voltron decks (at very little opportunity cost) that typically grant hexproof/shroud to their generals. The red land can pick off a planeswalker or utility creature. Morturary Mire, like the blighted lands, offers a useful effect at very very little cost. Sure, a lot of the time it will just be a bad swamp, but in the other games, it brings back a game winning card. Its a solid utility land. O-Sower is just Solemn Simulcrum's bigger brother. It is a fine card in any deck interested in getting to 10 mana and actually is amazing in Maelstrom Wanderer in particular as it is both decent attacker and it ramps you into your next cast of Maelstrom wanderer. Nissa's renewal is mediocre, but there aren't that many big ramp effects in edh and the decks that want one typically want more. The closest comparison here is Boundless realms, which I think we can all agree is a solid card in commander. Retreat to Emeria is a great card in tokens as it is both an overrun and a token producer. It is also a card that is disrupting standard. Bant Tokens was the best deck at the pro tour because Retreat to Emeria can be so strong. Being a token producing overrun effect makes the card always good.
Planar outburst may not be the best white boardwipe ever printed, but it is reasonable to play it in decks that want a lot of board wipes.
I'm not arguing that these cards are broken, I'm arguing that they are playable (that is to say that theirs exists a well tuned deck in which it is correct to run the card) in the multiplayer format that is EDH.
- Manite
I'll just jump in here to say Oblivion Sower is a really solid addition to my Kozilek EDH deck. While every color has better ramping options in its history to choose from, decks with colorless generals actually got a lot of new toys to play with in BFZ. I know this is a corner case, but I'd just say that you'll probably see a number of the colorless cards get played in EDH. Aside from Oblivion Sower I'd say two of the more playable colorless cards are:
Scour from Existence while expensive to cast, is the first instant speed catch-all answer any deck can run.
Hedron Archive is also probably going to see some play, as it is a compromise between Mind Stone and Dreamstone Hedron that seems to hit the sweet spot of ramping just enough to be useful in the early game while also not being a total dead draw in the late game.
The reason was in the argument, again. You're taking sets that aren't just iconic, revered, or saw loads heavier play than BFZ by leaps and bounds, but had major, permanent effects on Legacy, Modern, Commander, and Standard. BFZ can't hold a candle to even the lamest (imo) set there, SOM in terms of what it brings to every format's table. The fact that you're still not getting that is just proving the point harder.
"Bant Tokens
Sam Black broke it. He had the best deck for the Pro Tour and because it didn't Top 8 there's a decent chance it continues to fly under the radar. Among the four who played the deck, Bant Tokens had a 75% win rate and Ben Stark called it the best Standard deck he's played since Caw Blade."
Extracted from this article
I disagree. These cards would not be played in tuned edh decks, they could be used for people that aren't very knowledgeable about the card pool or can't afford the better options. Wanderer does not need a card like Oblivion Sower when it can run Primeval Titan, Consecrated Sphix, Inferno Titan and tons and tons of better six-drops in his colors. Same case can be made to every other card you mentioned, they are not worth it putting in just to have the 'copy number K from this effect' like is the case for Part the Waterveil and extra turns.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
For example, I would say that all the 4-5 color list are enabled due to the Fetch Lands, not the Battle Lands.
Bottom line is, do not use these list as proof, as they only have minor basis in actual data and do not tell enough
of the story.
Not that I blame Wizard, who wants their lists to state that Siege Rhino is a good card for the millionth time!
He may have had the best deck for the protour, that does not mean this is even one of the best archetypes in standard. I'm not gonna comment on the ridiculous stretch that is to compare this deck with Caw Blade (a deck that had JTMS in it, in standard). Just gonna state the obvious that you can have a deck that is good for the meta of a small tournament and have a good win percentage. Once people know what the deck does it gets harder to use it properly (virulent plague). In any case it is interesting to see a somewhat Rogue deck at the moment doing well. One detail: the core of the deck is almost all non-BFZ cards, not to say that the ones that are there aren't important, but it seems that secure the wastes is a pretty big deal for it.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
And again, the best performing deck of the ProTour (75% win rate) is a deck full of BfZ cards, not many people played it, because it wasn't an obvious deck, but it definitely tells you that BfZ is not as "underpowered" as many people on this forum would have you believe.
"Best Preforming deck at the PT" is a BIG stretch. That deck posts a 8-2 Record. Last time I checked there were several decks above that.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
I don't think this deck is as powerful as cawblade, mainly because I haven't tested it, and more than likely it's not as powerful, but if players as good as Sam Black, Tom Martel and Ben Stark think this deck is the real deal, people should take notice instead of dismissing it, and the deck wouldn't be possible without Gideon and retreat to Emeria.
And for the record, CawBlade could also be hated out, mono red won many tournaments this way, every deck can be hated out of any given metagame, and still if the most backbreaking card you can think of is virulent plague, that's not likely to save you, there are enough in color answers to it that it's not as backbreaking as you think.
You don't know what you are talking about if you think PrimeTime and inferno titan are better in Maelstrom Wanderer than O-Sower. PrimeTime is banned, so its totally unplayable. Inferno titan is basically just a beater. If you are lucky, it will pick off a utility creature, but it will usually just be chumped or ignored until the next board wipe hits the field or someone goes infinite. You are much better off hitting O-Sower and picking up another ~1.6 lands, getting you to your next cast of Maelstrom Wanderer. It also works to be hard cast on 6 mana in order to ramp you into your first cast of Wanderer. C-Sphinx is legitimately great, but the choice isn't between C-sphinx and O-Sower, you run both.
Bant Tokens was played by a grand total of 4 people, 3 of whom went 8-2. The deck had an overall match win rate of 75% (24-8) across the four players who played it far higher than any other deck that was taken to the pro tour. Now, A portion of that win rate is going to be due to no one being ready for it, and another portion is due to being played exclusively by amazing players. But it was still the definitively best performing deck at the pro tour.
- Manite
And yet it was not a deck with the "best" record.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA