There's been a lot of discussion about the impact of BFZ on Standard. I thought it would be fun to take a look at the top 8 Standard decks from Pro Tour BFZ to see how the top pros utilized the set.
First, let's take a look at the total number of all the non-land, non-reprint cards used in the main decks:
20 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Yep. Gideon is the only new non-land card that saw main deck play.
Looking at reprints, we add:
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Dispel
And the lands include:
8 Canopy Vista
3 Cinder Glade
8 Prairie Stream
4 Shambling Vent
5 Smoldering Marsh
5 Sunken Hollow
As for sideboards, there was a bit more variety there:
1 Boiling Earth
2 Dispel
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
5 Exert Influence
2 Felidar Cub
1 Gideon's Reproach
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
4 Radiant Flames
1 Ruinous Path
5 Transgress the Mind
So, do these numbers tell us anything? Are they about what people expected?
(Source)
The correct things to look at are the standard results. The top 8 is made up of people who did well while drafting. Or, to be more correct, exclude people who did badly at drafting.
So, when checking only the standard portion, 25 different BfZ cards made an appearance in the main decks. The big absence from BfZ are the creatures, with only a few making it in. So the conclusion is that 3 set-worth of Khans creatures are better than one set-worth of BfZ and that pushed, color-intensive creatures are just too good to be bulged by single-color-pip ones. The wonders.
Now every one will read whatever he wishes from this.
So the conclusion is that 3 set-worth of Khans creatures are better than one set-worth of BfZ and that pushed, color-intensive creatures are just too good to be bulged by single-color-pip ones. The wonders.
That's no excuse. When Theros came out (a set most regard as weak) it had a dramatic impact on Standard, a bunch of devotion decks appeared and took over despite a whole block of strong multicoloured cards still available.
Look at the big decks of the PT: Abzan, Jeskai, Megamorph, Atarka. Does that sound like Zendikar? This was Pro Tour Gideon Planeswalks to Tarkir.
The devotion plant in RtR were a big part of that, the other being... a land that made a ton of mana. You also again made the mistake of only looking at the top 8 instead of the top standard decks. There was also no fetches. The mana fixing was not *that* great in RtR/THS, required you to have tapped lands and supported at most two colors. Also, while U and B devotion took off early, for a long time mostly-RtR decks dominated. I played UW control for the whole time, with cards mostly from RtR.
It's the fetches + dual that is defining the current standard.
The big winners for BfZ seem to be mainly in white, with about two cards for each other colors.
the set is a constructed dud. the usual "apologists" wont own up to being wrong though.
Seems kind of conceited of you to claim this. Especially when the first set of a new block rarely shakes up standard I think the fact that 4-5 color decks being super viable right now is an awesome addition from Zendikar. Fetches are now actually strong dual lands in standard.
Lands aren't good enough to redeem a set.Kinda silly to defend the set because it introduzed new lands.When lands never had impact on standard in these last years?
Wait wait wait. The point was made above that no one played theros right away when it first came out either. And the point was made that theros still had a big impact on standard. So the real point is people are afraid of trying anything new until someone else shows them its okay, which absolutely will happen, and plenty of cards from BFZ will make an impact. One month of a set being out does not make it a dud. People refusing to try the cards in the set because they make those people have to actually think makes the constructed players duds. They will eventually open up and play the cards. I can bet not one person will "apologize" for calling the set bad once they are proven wrong though
The problem here is that tricolored cards are almost always going to be stronger than cards requiring only 1 or 2 colored mana, but are supposed to have the drawback that they are harder to cast. With how good the mana fixing is right now, there is virtually no drawback to multicolor. The reason Theros spawned new archetypes despite being much weaker than RTR was because Theros mana fixing strongly pushed fewer colors. Most of the cards being played in those decks were RTR cards, they were just being enabled by a few strong devotion cards (Master of Waves, Nykthos, and Grey Merchant), while the decks that were good before Theros were crippled by the loss of mana fixing.
Right now, we have the opposite occurring. While BFZ IS weaker than KTK (a really strong set which had huge impact on Modern, banned cards, etc.), the real problem is that the lands of BFZ are pushing the many-color strategies of KTk, instead of pushing BFZ strategies. There were some different decks than the previous standard though, (and Dark Jeskai is a blast to play), it its not too bad of a format right now. Hopefully now that the PT has shown the format a little better a control deck will be able to emerge, with Dark Jeskai, GW megamorph, Abzan, and a control deck, I will consider that a decent format. The format can't ways be as diverse as it has been the last year.
There are people that like the standard format right now? The decks seem like over powered draft decks atm. The buzz on the street is, "Yep this set is weak and won't make much of an impact until OGW comes out". Till then what? I'd rather spend my money on drafts/ sealed since that seems more enjoyable. I have a standard deck and can build the top pro tour deck if I wish, but "why"? I love to brew, but right now there's no brewing to be made. If you guys have time to sit on your butts and break it open let us know. Apparently the guys who gets paid to do so didn't find much to brew with either...Except that uber mana bases mean you can run sweet Khans cards until Christmas!!!!
Now on topic, BFZ cards that made an impact:
Gideon (DUH)
Lands (We just had a rare land cycle rotate, of course rare lands will make an impact)
Dragonmaster Outcast (repint)
You know what I see everything else doing? Trying to fill the holes of cards that just left. That's it.
And, the Atarka red is one of the weakest RDW variants I've played. Called me spoiled lasts Origins RDW was sweet, until it got hated out. Control? Sure...great deck choice in world of Den Pro's and Deathmists.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Wait wait wait. The point was made above that no one played theros right away when it first came out either. And the point was made that theros still had a big impact on standard. So the real point is people are afraid of trying anything new until someone else shows them its okay, which absolutely will happen, and plenty of cards from BFZ will make an impact. One month of a set being out does not make it a dud. People refusing to try the cards in the set because they make those people have to actually think makes the constructed players duds. They will eventually open up and play the cards. I can bet not one person will "apologize" for calling the set bad once they are proven wrong though
The pros always try the new cards for the PT because they want to break the format. They tried to break the BFZ cards, saw a lack of potential, and went back to the Tarkir decks.
Gideon is just a good value card that fits in nicely in Abzan and G/W megamorph shells, and to a lesser extant Jeskai shells. (Jeskai would prefer to not play it much since its harder on their mana) It was boarded out a surprising amount in the top 8 since its not a super impactful card when it hits the board. Still a very good card. Anyway the rest of the cards that saw play didn't define any new styles other than Zulaport. Bring to Light might be a thing but likely too slow now. The retreat to Emeria deck looks good, but I'm curious what it really buys you over the tokens strategy based around Jeskai Ascendency. Everyone else is right that the rest of the cards in BFZ that saw play are trying to replace rotated cards. In some cases very badly like Ruinous Path and almost any creature that came out in BFZ.
The Lands are hugely impactful, but yeah this set is pretty poor. There are playable cards, but nothing about this set shakes up the metagame. We're still going to see the same decks til Khans rotates.
the set is a constructed dud. the usual "apologists" wont own up to being wrong though.
Must be that "apologist" are providing numbers and not mere insults?
As I wrote, people will read what they want. I'm reading again that people totally ignore and shrug off Sam Black deck because even though 3 of its 4 pilots went 8-2 (AKA, the best standard records except for one person going 9-1), because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Eh, however you count it, BfZ is not doing much in Standard. There's been a lot of talk of "wait until Pro Tour! That's when everybody brings sweet brews and the meta breaks wide open!" but most of what I saw was more of the same. There are some new decks, but they're just too weak to make much of a splash.
I griped in the other thread that my beef with BFZ isn't that no cards are seeing play, it's that the cards which are seeing widespread play are the annual roleplayers which aren't being played for factors that are interesting or unique to this standard, but just to fill the hole in the deck for [generic black creature destruction] or [generic blue hard counter].
The cards which have seen play which I do think are exciting are: Zulaport Cutthroat, Retreat to Emeria and Bring to Light. The landfall aggro dudes aren't bad either because in critical mass, they make for a deck that plays meaningfully differently than an aggro deck full of generic red 2/1s for 1 and 3/2s for 2.
Lands aren't good enough to redeem a set. Kinda silly to defend the set because it introduced new lands. When lands never had impact on standard in these last years?
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new creatures.
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new instants.
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new planeswalkers.
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new ...
Congratulations, there is two good cards out of BFZ instead of one?
Gah-haw!
No one misunderstand that three-colors spells are better. Mantis, Rhino, Charms, it's hard to make better card at lower cost with fewer colors. Why do you think you need to deny that BfZ cards were played?
I'm not concerned with the fact that Khans had very good cards.
I'm concerned with the absolute denial people lock themselves in.
"Lands doesn't count!" when Zendikar is land-based set with two land-based mechanics. "Removal doesn't count!" "Sweepers don't count" (Fortunate when two from BfZ got played.) "Landfall creature are too weak to possibly count!"
People are complaining because the set didn't shake anything up. Theros which just rotated had three powerful archetypes in heroic, devotion and constellation that are now gone. Was it too much that a new set give one new archetype? I was hoping it would be the five color BTL decks but that isn't good. The token thing seems okay, but honestly not sure how much better it is than Jeskai tokens that does similar things. Which just leaves the aristocrat decks as I think the main new archetype. Who knows how good when the deck can't beat Anafenza.
Edit: actually four archetypes when you include reanimated whip decks. Anyway there isn't a lot of cards being played from BFZ and not a lot of change in the meta. Being picky about a card or two won't change that.
Looking back historically, the land cards have always been in the set with the weaker non-land cards, where as the middle and final sets typically had more good staples for main deck play. The only thing surprising is how unspectacular origins was, and BFZ is still kind of an unusually weak set given it really is the first set of a three set block plus half of the middle set.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Lands aren't good enough to redeem a set. Kinda silly to defend the set because it introduced new lands. When lands never had impact on standard in these last years?
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new creatures.
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new instants.
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new planeswalkers.
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new ...
Congratulations, there is two good cards out of BFZ instead of one?
Gah-haw!
No one misunderstand that three-colors spells are better. Mantis, Rhino, Charms, it's hard to make better card at lower cost with fewer colors. Why do you think you need to deny that BfZ cards were played?
I'm not concerned with the fact that Khans had very good cards.
I'm concerned with the absolute denial people lock themselves in.
"Lands doesn't count!" when Zendikar is land-based set with two land-based mechanics. "Removal doesn't count!" "Sweepers don't count" (Fortunate when two from BfZ got played.) "Landfall creature are too weak to possibly count!"
Bah.
There's still some of you guys left? Really? This complaining started mid-spoiler when the set seemed very weak, and hasn't stopped. The counterpoint:
"Wait until the whole set is spoiled, duh!"
"Wait until you've had a chance to play with it, duh!"
"Wait until tourney results start coming in, duh!"
"Wait until the Pro Tour, duh!"
"Wait...until Oath, duh!"
...and you want to talk about denial? Seriously?
Look, no mechanics carried over. Creatures aren't getting used. The themes of the set aren't being played. The tribe isn't being played. The 'big evil' of the set is not getting used. The set is not getting used in any meaningful way. Just accept it and move on. They've made bad sets before, this will probably (hopefully) be the worst set in recent and future memory, and that's fine. It really, really is. Standard will suck for a while, and maybe someday sooner rather than later, it gets better. But it's just sad that you're sitting clinging onto scraps at this point. Yes, of course the lands don't count. That's not ridiculous, that's Magic. We have to use whatever the new lands are, even when we don't like them, even when they damage us, even when it's not evenly distributed across color pairs. What has NEVER happened in the past decade is a set gets basically ignored en masse on this kind of scale. It doesn't matter if it's 1 card or 6, or 12. This set is only getting use to fill in roles taken by THS rotating. It's only being used to prop up glorified KTK block decks.
It's a bummer, I know, but this set is bad. Real bad. Better luck to all of us next time.
It is true that the decks are very KTK-focused, but as I didn't play KTK block constructed, that isn't a huge deal, because the format is fairly different from pre-rotation. Not as big a shift as most fall sets, but more than normal. The fact that there are not many successful decks might mean that I get bored of the format more quickly than normal, but for now it's okay. I don't mind new blocks making a little less impact if we get new blocks more often.
Sam Black's Bant list was pretty successful, and wasn't one of the big decks coming in.
I really do want a real control deck to be successful though, the most successful ones were Esper decks with quite a few threats (whether dragons or walkers), as well as Jace/Hangarback. I hope now that the format has shown that there aren't a ton of major decks, control will be able to focus on those matchups and be able to win them. The ability of GW morph to grind and Atarka's explosiveness do combine to make it difficult though.
The other problem is that a large number of (higher-rarity) cards in this set are designed for designed for a ramp deck, which is in a terrible place right now. Fatties aren't great when Raptors can hold them off and Dark Jeskai is very able to slow down ramp, deal with a first threat, and then kill.
Overall, yes, the format is much less diverse than last year, but I'm still convinced that a control deck will form, which would mean a tier 1 with a control, an all-in aggro, and several midrange decks, which is okay by me. I think the main thing here is that with the new rotation system, rotations may not cause as drastic of a reset to the format. However, I think/hope that it will be more than made up for by rotation occurring twice as often
Speaking of Esper dragons. Dragonlord Ojutai is back to hovering around $30. Yet he wasn't in the pro tour top 8...
I think this is a reaction to the last SCG tournament, where the top 8 consisted of 4 megamorph and 4 Jeskai decks. A couple of the Jeskai decks ran Ojutai, and the price went back up.
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First, let's take a look at the total number of all the non-land, non-reprint cards used in the main decks:
20 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Yep. Gideon is the only new non-land card that saw main deck play.
Looking at reprints, we add:
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Dispel
And the lands include:
8 Canopy Vista
3 Cinder Glade
8 Prairie Stream
4 Shambling Vent
5 Smoldering Marsh
5 Sunken Hollow
As for sideboards, there was a bit more variety there:
1 Boiling Earth
2 Dispel
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
5 Exert Influence
2 Felidar Cub
1 Gideon's Reproach
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
4 Radiant Flames
1 Ruinous Path
5 Transgress the Mind
So, do these numbers tell us anything? Are they about what people expected?
(Source)
The correct things to look at are the standard results. The top 8 is made up of people who did well while drafting. Or, to be more correct, exclude people who did badly at drafting.
So, when checking only the standard portion, 25 different BfZ cards made an appearance in the main decks. The big absence from BfZ are the creatures, with only a few making it in. So the conclusion is that 3 set-worth of Khans creatures are better than one set-worth of BfZ and that pushed, color-intensive creatures are just too good to be bulged by single-color-pip ones. The wonders.
Now every one will read whatever he wishes from this.
Look at the big decks of the PT: Abzan, Jeskai, Megamorph, Atarka. Does that sound like Zendikar? This was Pro Tour Gideon Planeswalks to Tarkir.
It's the fetches + dual that is defining the current standard.
The big winners for BfZ seem to be mainly in white, with about two cards for each other colors.
Seems kind of conceited of you to claim this. Especially when the first set of a new block rarely shakes up standard I think the fact that 4-5 color decks being super viable right now is an awesome addition from Zendikar. Fetches are now actually strong dual lands in standard.
Right now, we have the opposite occurring. While BFZ IS weaker than KTK (a really strong set which had huge impact on Modern, banned cards, etc.), the real problem is that the lands of BFZ are pushing the many-color strategies of KTk, instead of pushing BFZ strategies. There were some different decks than the previous standard though, (and Dark Jeskai is a blast to play), it its not too bad of a format right now. Hopefully now that the PT has shown the format a little better a control deck will be able to emerge, with Dark Jeskai, GW megamorph, Abzan, and a control deck, I will consider that a decent format. The format can't ways be as diverse as it has been the last year.
Now on topic, BFZ cards that made an impact:
Gideon (DUH)
Lands (We just had a rare land cycle rotate, of course rare lands will make an impact)
Dragonmaster Outcast (repint)
You know what I see everything else doing? Trying to fill the holes of cards that just left. That's it.
And, the Atarka red is one of the weakest RDW variants I've played. Called me spoiled lasts Origins RDW was sweet, until it got hated out. Control? Sure...great deck choice in world of Den Pro's and Deathmists.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptths13/top_8_decks
6 of the 8 decks are devotion decks (3 blue, 1 black, 1 red, 1 green)
This is the top 8 of PT KTK:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptktk/top-8-decklists-2014-10-11
6 of the 8 decks are clans decks (3 Jeskai, 3 Abzan), and another one is a combo deck based around Jeskai Ascendancy.
The pros always try the new cards for the PT because they want to break the format. They tried to break the BFZ cards, saw a lack of potential, and went back to the Tarkir decks.
The Lands are hugely impactful, but yeah this set is pretty poor. There are playable cards, but nothing about this set shakes up the metagame. We're still going to see the same decks til Khans rotates.
Must be that "apologist" are providing numbers and not mere insults?
As I wrote, people will read what they want. I'm reading again that people totally ignore and shrug off Sam Black deck because even though 3 of its 4 pilots went 8-2 (AKA, the best standard records except for one person going 9-1), because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Oh, well. At least the drafts were interesting.
The cards which have seen play which I do think are exciting are: Zulaport Cutthroat, Retreat to Emeria and Bring to Light. The landfall aggro dudes aren't bad either because in critical mass, they make for a deck that plays meaningfully differently than an aggro deck full of generic red 2/1s for 1 and 3/2s for 2.
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new creatures.
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new instants.
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new planeswalkers.
Kinda silly to defend a set because it introduced new ...
Funny how it sounds ludicrous now?
Gah-haw!
No one misunderstand that three-colors spells are better. Mantis, Rhino, Charms, it's hard to make better card at lower cost with fewer colors. Why do you think you need to deny that BfZ cards were played?
I'm not concerned with the fact that Khans had very good cards.
I'm concerned with the absolute denial people lock themselves in.
"Lands doesn't count!" when Zendikar is land-based set with two land-based mechanics. "Removal doesn't count!" "Sweepers don't count" (Fortunate when two from BfZ got played.) "Landfall creature are too weak to possibly count!"
Bah.
Edit: actually four archetypes when you include reanimated whip decks. Anyway there isn't a lot of cards being played from BFZ and not a lot of change in the meta. Being picky about a card or two won't change that.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There's still some of you guys left? Really? This complaining started mid-spoiler when the set seemed very weak, and hasn't stopped. The counterpoint:
"Wait until the whole set is spoiled, duh!"
"Wait until you've had a chance to play with it, duh!"
"Wait until tourney results start coming in, duh!"
"Wait until the Pro Tour, duh!"
"Wait...until Oath, duh!"
...and you want to talk about denial? Seriously?
Look, no mechanics carried over. Creatures aren't getting used. The themes of the set aren't being played. The tribe isn't being played. The 'big evil' of the set is not getting used. The set is not getting used in any meaningful way. Just accept it and move on. They've made bad sets before, this will probably (hopefully) be the worst set in recent and future memory, and that's fine. It really, really is. Standard will suck for a while, and maybe someday sooner rather than later, it gets better. But it's just sad that you're sitting clinging onto scraps at this point. Yes, of course the lands don't count. That's not ridiculous, that's Magic. We have to use whatever the new lands are, even when we don't like them, even when they damage us, even when it's not evenly distributed across color pairs. What has NEVER happened in the past decade is a set gets basically ignored en masse on this kind of scale. It doesn't matter if it's 1 card or 6, or 12. This set is only getting use to fill in roles taken by THS rotating. It's only being used to prop up glorified KTK block decks.
It's a bummer, I know, but this set is bad. Real bad. Better luck to all of us next time.
Sam Black's Bant list was pretty successful, and wasn't one of the big decks coming in.
I really do want a real control deck to be successful though, the most successful ones were Esper decks with quite a few threats (whether dragons or walkers), as well as Jace/Hangarback. I hope now that the format has shown that there aren't a ton of major decks, control will be able to focus on those matchups and be able to win them. The ability of GW morph to grind and Atarka's explosiveness do combine to make it difficult though.
The other problem is that a large number of (higher-rarity) cards in this set are designed for designed for a ramp deck, which is in a terrible place right now. Fatties aren't great when Raptors can hold them off and Dark Jeskai is very able to slow down ramp, deal with a first threat, and then kill.
Overall, yes, the format is much less diverse than last year, but I'm still convinced that a control deck will form, which would mean a tier 1 with a control, an all-in aggro, and several midrange decks, which is okay by me. I think the main thing here is that with the new rotation system, rotations may not cause as drastic of a reset to the format. However, I think/hope that it will be more than made up for by rotation occurring twice as often
I think this is a reaction to the last SCG tournament, where the top 8 consisted of 4 megamorph and 4 Jeskai decks. A couple of the Jeskai decks ran Ojutai, and the price went back up.