Hard choice here, but probably the Nettle Drone. Multiple of these seems nigh-unstoppable, and building them quickly you can start putting together a deck designed to combo out with them. I'd probably build it R/B to take advantage of some of the faster eldrazi, playing it as a RDW-style deck.
While the Nettle Drone thing does seem like a solid strategy I don't think its good enough to take over solid removal Pick 1. I would end up taking the Stonefury since in almost all cases it is going to be the same or better power than Demon's Grasp. Special nod to Plated Crusher though. I'm pretty sure he's gonna be a problem to deal with as most giant, trampling, hexproofers are, but the triple green is fairly committing I think; even at 7cmc. And actually now that I think about it, with all the giant Eldrazi around he's isnt gonna be as unstoppable as he would be in most other formats.
That's a fair point. I do think that it's worth going for early though, even if it's not a p1p1. However, for the early BFZ draft I'd probably still go with Nettle Drone. I have a feeling that people are going to devalue low drop devoid-ingest cards like Sludge Crawler, as well as the Nettle Drone itself, so I can probably pick a few up and use them as cheap spells for a tap combo deck. From the reactions of most of the forum-goers, I'd guess that they'll devalue plays like that in favor of voltron Allies or big eldrazi ramp. It's definitely a gamble, but I'd bet on people like you passing me the stuff I need to pick the usually good stuff like removal.
I'll give you though that my strategy would be risky. It's an all-in strategy, and I definitely wouldn't do it later in the format after the good and bad cards are known and the strong combos are recognized. At that point I'd probably agree with you and go for p1p1 removal.
I feel like the Network is just not going to have enough targets on average. Most of the time its decent sideboard against big threats, but really how often it gonna remove more that one creature. Not to mention the fact that it can be destroyed.
Stonefury deals with many of the things you would be using the Hedron network for anyway except for a few big Eldrazi. I'd take the more consistent card of the more narrow one.
I would go for the removal, the more splashable and regen-beating one. Demon's Grasp for me.
For splashing maybe, but how many creatures with regen or indestructable are in the set? Like one of each. Also its a sorcery and doesn't scale after turn 5 Like Fury does.
I feel like the Network is just not going to have enough targets on average. Most of the time its decent sideboard against big threats, but really how often it gonna remove more that one creature. Not to mention the fact that it can be destroyed.
Stonefury deals with many of the things you would be using the Hedron network for anyway except for a few big Eldrazi. I'd take the more consistent card of the more narrow one.
I agree that Stonefury is the more consistent card. Instant speed is of course nice too. But the double red is a turn-off. I guess I put greater emphasis on staying open. The blowout potential of removing 2 or more fatties intrigues me, too.
I feel like the Network is just not going to have enough targets on average. Most of the time its decent sideboard against big threats, but really how often it gonna remove more that one creature. Not to mention the fact that it can be destroyed.
Stonefury deals with many of the things you would be using the Hedron network for anyway except for a few big Eldrazi. I'd take the more consistent card of the more narrow one.
I agree that Stonefury is the more consistent card. Instant speed is of course nice too. But the double red is a turn-off. I guess I put greater emphasis on staying open. The blowout potential of removing 2 or more fatties intrigues me, too.
Yeah, pretty much this. Instant and scalability are pros, double red is a con here. And as I said, as P1P1, I prefer splashability.
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Hedron network is too hard to control and too much up to chance for my tastes.
Believe it or not, for me it's between demon's grasp, stone fury and shadow glider. I'm going with Stonefury, since I'll innevitably have big stuff in my way and regeneration/indestructible isn't an issue in the format.
I'd pick Hedron Network, as its the first pick of the draft and can be a build-around-me card that would encourage me to draft an aggro strategy, drafting creatures with power four or less and maybe still gives me room for a few bombs which I can choose to drop after the network. Yes it is vulnerable to removal, but apart from Scour from Existence, there really isn't any artifact hate I can think of that my opponents will be running in their main deck. The network also feeds a processor strategy which might be worth keeping in mind as the draft continues.
It's colorless so assuming that's your first pick pack 1, it leaves you options open. The effect is amazing in a format where you would expect a ton of large cratures.
Keep in mind that if you want to remove more than one of those large creatures. You will likely have to take a hit from one of them. It's not likely that your opponent will tap out for a second fatty before attacking with the first one, or play both on the same turn. And since it's symmetrical. There are times where playing it would be bad for you, even if your opponent has something you want gone. I'm afraid in most cases, the correct play will be to use it as spot removal. In which case it's hardly an absolute first pick.
I'd pick Hedron Network, as its the first pick of the draft and can be a build-around-me card that would encourage me to draft an aggro strategy, drafting creatures with power four or less and maybe still gives me room for a few bombs which I can choose to drop after the network. Yes it is vulnerable to removal, but apart from Scour from Existence, there really isn't any artifact hate I can think of that my opponents will be running in their main deck. The network also feeds a processor strategy which might be worth keeping in mind as the draft continues.
Well, reclaiming vines is common. And I wouldn't be shy about maindecking it.
I feel like the Network is just not going to have enough targets on average. Most of the time its decent sideboard against big threats, but really how often it gonna remove more that one creature. Not to mention the fact that it can be destroyed.
Stonefury deals with many of the things you would be using the Hedron network for anyway except for a few big Eldrazi. I'd take the more consistent card of the more narrow one.
I agree that Stonefury is the more consistent card. Instant speed is of course nice too. But the double red is a turn-off. I guess I put greater emphasis on staying open. The blowout potential of removing 2 or more fatties intrigues me, too.
Yeah, pretty much this. Instant and scalability are pros, double red is a con here. And as I said, as P1P1, I prefer splashability.
It's double red on a card that you'll likely play on turn 6 though. So it'S unlikely to be an issue. Plus, this isn't a format where you'll be splashing a lot unless you're tying to build a 3 color ally deck.
I think the Hedron Network is a sideboard card at best and definitely not first pickable. The pick comes down to Stonefury or Demon's Grasp. Grasp leaves you more open but is less powerful. I also feel like red is a slightly better color at first blush so I am going to pick Stonefury myself but totally wouldn't begrudge anyone who goes with Demon's Grasp.
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Tough one, lot of pretty close calls here. Personally I'm leaning towards the Crusher, as the combination of stats/cost/abilities seem to line up really well. Tough to stop, especially when backed up by any tricks, and not so expensive that you have to playing a dedicated ramp deck to make use of it.
Second pick for me would be the Nettle Drone, that seems like one of the lynch pins of a sweet BR aggro deck, pushing through damage early and late.
3rd/4th would be the two overcosted common removal spells, taking the red a little higher than the black thanks to the fact that it can scale up to the range needed to kill Eldrazi in the late game. These are fine cards, but too inefficient+conditional for me to take 1st over good creatures. At these kind of cost I really want removal that will kill anything, especially in a set loaded with fatties.
Finally comes the Network, a great card in some matchups...but near dead in others. I'd be happy to have this in my pile at the end of a draft, as it does have the raw power to win games, but it is too inconsistent for me to take over something like the Crusher or the Drone, cards that will consistently win games regardless of the opponent.
In this one healer won over my other choice of nettle barely, draft healer is more stable but sealed I'd be tempted to build around nettle if I could over healer
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Tough one, lot of pretty close calls here. Personally I'm leaning towards the Crusher, as the combination of stats/cost/abilities seem to line up really well. Tough to stop, especially when backed up by any tricks, and not so expensive that you have to playing a dedicated ramp deck to make use of it.
Second pick for me would be the Nettle Drone, that seems like one of the lynch pins of a sweet BR aggro deck, pushing through damage early and late.
3rd/4th would be the two overcosted common removal spells, taking the red a little higher than the black thanks to the fact that it can scale up to the range needed to kill Eldrazi in the late game. These are fine cards, but too inefficient+conditional for me to take 1st over good creatures. At these kind of cost I really want removal that will kill anything, especially in a set loaded with fatties.
Finally comes the Network, a great card in some matchups...but near dead in others. I'd be happy to have this in my pile at the end of a draft, as it does have the raw power to win games, but it is too inconsistent for me to take over something like the Crusher or the Drone, cards that will consistently win games regardless of the opponent.
If you look at the available removal in the set that isn't rare/mythic, you have stasis snare, bone splinters and scour from existence. You will not find uncontitional removal at less than 5 mana unless it's rare. (And there's only one,ruinous path) So those cards are not overcosted in this context. It's all we have. And there isn't a lot of it. Even in black, you won't find a 5 mana card that will kill anything.
Tough one, lot of pretty close calls here. Personally I'm leaning towards the Crusher, as the combination of stats/cost/abilities seem to line up really well. Tough to stop, especially when backed up by any tricks, and not so expensive that you have to playing a dedicated ramp deck to make use of it.
Second pick for me would be the Nettle Drone, that seems like one of the lynch pins of a sweet BR aggro deck, pushing through damage early and late.
3rd/4th would be the two overcosted common removal spells, taking the red a little higher than the black thanks to the fact that it can scale up to the range needed to kill Eldrazi in the late game. These are fine cards, but too inefficient+conditional for me to take 1st over good creatures. At these kind of cost I really want removal that will kill anything, especially in a set loaded with fatties.
Finally comes the Network, a great card in some matchups...but near dead in others. I'd be happy to have this in my pile at the end of a draft, as it does have the raw power to win games, but it is too inconsistent for me to take over something like the Crusher or the Drone, cards that will consistently win games regardless of the opponent.
If you look at the available removal in the set that isn't rare/mythic, you have stasis snare, bone splinters and scour from existence. You will not find uncontitional removal at less than 5 mana unless it's rare. (And there's only one,ruinous path) So those cards are not overcosted in this context. It's all we have. And there isn't a lot of it. Even in black, you won't find a 5 mana card that will kill anything.
True...sort of. It is still inefficient relative to the non-removal in the set. That's the new world we live in, one where the best common creature in a color can actually be a reasonable pick over the best common removal in that color.
True...sort of. It is still inefficient relative to the non-removal in the set. That's the new world we live in, one where the best common creature in a color can actually be a reasonable pick over the best common removal in that color.
Its always hard to identify tone in written posts, but I get the feeling that you think this change is somehow bad. Shouldn't the best common creatures be reasonable when compared to the best common removal?
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
True...sort of. It is still inefficient relative to the non-removal in the set. That's the new world we live in, one where the best common creature in a color can actually be a reasonable pick over the best common removal in that color.
Its always hard to identify tone in written posts, but I get the feeling that you think this change is somehow bad. Shouldn't the best common creatures be reasonable when compared to the best common removal?
Yeah you are misreading me, I like the change, makes limited more interesting. I think removal being slightly more efficient than its targets on average makes sense given the opportunity cost associated with it, and I think they have been hitting that mark pretty well lately. Doom Blades and Lighting Bolts at common are just boring in a typical limited environment (i.e. not cube/MM).
I just think a lot of people are still in an adjustment period when it comes to this shift, and are overvaluing removal based on how good it was in the past. Problem for them is that creatures have only gotten better, not worse. So that conditional 5-mana removal might be the best thing they are gonna get at common in terms of removal...but that doesn't make it exciting.
Tough one, lot of pretty close calls here. Personally I'm leaning towards the Crusher, as the combination of stats/cost/abilities seem to line up really well. Tough to stop, especially when backed up by any tricks, and not so expensive that you have to playing a dedicated ramp deck to make use of it.
Second pick for me would be the Nettle Drone, that seems like one of the lynch pins of a sweet BR aggro deck, pushing through damage early and late.
3rd/4th would be the two overcosted common removal spells, taking the red a little higher than the black thanks to the fact that it can scale up to the range needed to kill Eldrazi in the late game. These are fine cards, but too inefficient+conditional for me to take 1st over good creatures. At these kind of cost I really want removal that will kill anything, especially in a set loaded with fatties.
Finally comes the Network, a great card in some matchups...but near dead in others. I'd be happy to have this in my pile at the end of a draft, as it does have the raw power to win games, but it is too inconsistent for me to take over something like the Crusher or the Drone, cards that will consistently win games regardless of the opponent.
If you look at the available removal in the set that isn't rare/mythic, you have stasis snare, bone splinters and scour from existence. You will not find uncontitional removal at less than 5 mana unless it's rare. (And there's only one,ruinous path) So those cards are not overcosted in this context. It's all we have. And there isn't a lot of it. Even in black, you won't find a 5 mana card that will kill anything.
True...sort of. It is still inefficient relative to the non-removal in the set. That's the new world we live in, one where the best common creature in a color can actually be a reasonable pick over the best common removal in that color.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Not having removal in a sealed deck is rarely more efficient than having it. Stonefury is the only common that will kill every non-hexproof in the format including Eldrazi, that other comons can't touch outside of combat/post-combat tricks, or with a drawback in the case of bone splinters. It deals an average of 5-6 damage when you cast it. Five mana is not asking too much considering what it does for you. It can't cost 3 since it would compete with touch the void, and at 4, it would push red into the most wanted color. And it would be Zendikar 1.0 all over again.
I don't believe the best commoncreature is always better than the best common removal since.
1. It depends what you've drafted so far. If the creature is an ally and you've drafted 4 already, it's likely better. If it's your 8th creature you probably want the removal.
2. Drafting creatures is easy. Removal does not wheel so easily. So you could pickup a bane of bala ged only to have it killed by a common that still could have killed it had it been ramped two turns earlier.
3. It's good practice to treat removal in limited as if it was always uncommon. As, like I said, it rarely if ever comes back to you. So a good common creature is more likely to show up again, while the removal could push someone in your color.
(Also, if all creatures were better than removal, than all games eventally reach a stalemate)
I'm going to pick up Hedron Network myself, purely because while Stonefury might be the 'better' pick, it's also at common so the likelihood of me encountering another one (or two or three) is higher. I mean, I doubt EVERYONE at the table somehow is trying to run red (at which point I would be even less likely to take it and go for everything else that's open)
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I'll give you though that my strategy would be risky. It's an all-in strategy, and I definitely wouldn't do it later in the format after the good and bad cards are known and the strong combos are recognized. At that point I'd probably agree with you and go for p1p1 removal.
I feel like the Network is just not going to have enough targets on average. Most of the time its decent sideboard against big threats, but really how often it gonna remove more that one creature. Not to mention the fact that it can be destroyed.
Stonefury deals with many of the things you would be using the Hedron network for anyway except for a few big Eldrazi. I'd take the more consistent card of the more narrow one.
I would go for the removal, the more splashable and regen-beating one. Demon's Grasp for me.
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For splashing maybe, but how many creatures with regen or indestructable are in the set? Like one of each. Also its a sorcery and doesn't scale after turn 5 Like Fury does.
I agree that Stonefury is the more consistent card. Instant speed is of course nice too. But the double red is a turn-off. I guess I put greater emphasis on staying open. The blowout potential of removing 2 or more fatties intrigues me, too.
Yeah, pretty much this. Instant and scalability are pros, double red is a con here. And as I said, as P1P1, I prefer splashability.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Believe it or not, for me it's between demon's grasp, stone fury and shadow glider. I'm going with Stonefury, since I'll innevitably have big stuff in my way and regeneration/indestructible isn't an issue in the format.
The entire set has only one regenerator. And it can't block.
Keep in mind that if you want to remove more than one of those large creatures. You will likely have to take a hit from one of them. It's not likely that your opponent will tap out for a second fatty before attacking with the first one, or play both on the same turn. And since it's symmetrical. There are times where playing it would be bad for you, even if your opponent has something you want gone. I'm afraid in most cases, the correct play will be to use it as spot removal. In which case it's hardly an absolute first pick.
Well, reclaiming vines is common. And I wouldn't be shy about maindecking it.
It's double red on a card that you'll likely play on turn 6 though. So it'S unlikely to be an issue. Plus, this isn't a format where you'll be splashing a lot unless you're tying to build a 3 color ally deck.
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Second pick for me would be the Nettle Drone, that seems like one of the lynch pins of a sweet BR aggro deck, pushing through damage early and late.
3rd/4th would be the two overcosted common removal spells, taking the red a little higher than the black thanks to the fact that it can scale up to the range needed to kill Eldrazi in the late game. These are fine cards, but too inefficient+conditional for me to take 1st over good creatures. At these kind of cost I really want removal that will kill anything, especially in a set loaded with fatties.
Finally comes the Network, a great card in some matchups...but near dead in others. I'd be happy to have this in my pile at the end of a draft, as it does have the raw power to win games, but it is too inconsistent for me to take over something like the Crusher or the Drone, cards that will consistently win games regardless of the opponent.
It deals with most real threats, and there are very few cards in the set which can deal with it.
Quarantine Field is similar, but Mythic, so less of a concern.
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If you look at the available removal in the set that isn't rare/mythic, you have stasis snare, bone splinters and scour from existence. You will not find uncontitional removal at less than 5 mana unless it's rare. (And there's only one,ruinous path) So those cards are not overcosted in this context. It's all we have. And there isn't a lot of it. Even in black, you won't find a 5 mana card that will kill anything.
True...sort of. It is still inefficient relative to the non-removal in the set. That's the new world we live in, one where the best common creature in a color can actually be a reasonable pick over the best common removal in that color.
Its always hard to identify tone in written posts, but I get the feeling that you think this change is somehow bad. Shouldn't the best common creatures be reasonable when compared to the best common removal?
- Manite
Yeah you are misreading me, I like the change, makes limited more interesting. I think removal being slightly more efficient than its targets on average makes sense given the opportunity cost associated with it, and I think they have been hitting that mark pretty well lately. Doom Blades and Lighting Bolts at common are just boring in a typical limited environment (i.e. not cube/MM).
I just think a lot of people are still in an adjustment period when it comes to this shift, and are overvaluing removal based on how good it was in the past. Problem for them is that creatures have only gotten better, not worse. So that conditional 5-mana removal might be the best thing they are gonna get at common in terms of removal...but that doesn't make it exciting.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Not having removal in a sealed deck is rarely more efficient than having it. Stonefury is the only common that will kill every non-hexproof in the format including Eldrazi, that other comons can't touch outside of combat/post-combat tricks, or with a drawback in the case of bone splinters. It deals an average of 5-6 damage when you cast it. Five mana is not asking too much considering what it does for you. It can't cost 3 since it would compete with touch the void, and at 4, it would push red into the most wanted color. And it would be Zendikar 1.0 all over again.
I don't believe the best commoncreature is always better than the best common removal since.
1. It depends what you've drafted so far. If the creature is an ally and you've drafted 4 already, it's likely better. If it's your 8th creature you probably want the removal.
2. Drafting creatures is easy. Removal does not wheel so easily. So you could pickup a bane of bala ged only to have it killed by a common that still could have killed it had it been ramped two turns earlier.
3. It's good practice to treat removal in limited as if it was always uncommon. As, like I said, it rarely if ever comes back to you. So a good common creature is more likely to show up again, while the removal could push someone in your color.
(Also, if all creatures were better than removal, than all games eventally reach a stalemate)