This thread has been an interesting read. A few points that have come to mind:
1) I wonder if the set would have been better received (or at least had a less negative reaction) if it didn't have the word "Zendikar" in the name. A lot of the disappointment seems to stem from the fact that this set is a very far departure from the original Zendikar in terms of flavor, mechanics, and power level. Managing expectations is an important part of successful marketing, and maybe referring to the Eldrazi instead of the plane in the name would have been a better tactic.
2) A lot of criticism is met with statements like, "Wait until you play with the cards." The thing is, a set doesn't succeed or fail along only the axis of game play. First impressions are very important, too. In an article about impressions, Mark Rosewater wrote, "You see, it's all well and good to make an awesome set, but you still have to make sure players discover that it's awesome." (source). BFZ has been met with a fairly strong negative reaction initially. Regardless of how perceptions change (or don't change) over time, a bad first impression is still an important thing for WotC to avoid.
3) I can't speak for every eternal player, but for me, I don't generally look to new sets for format-defining cards for Modern, Legacy, or Vintage. What I do look for are role-players and sideboard options. Usually basic cards make me pretty happy. Rending Volley and Roast are great examples of recent cards that interested me. They certainly aren't broken in any format, but they can play a role, even in non-rotating formats.
Also, it isn't just about finding cards that are cheaper or more pushed than previous cards. A couple of my favorite examples are Krosan Grip and Nature's Claim. They each have roles to play in Eternal formats even though one costs three times as much as the other for the same basic effect.
Is everyone seeing this? This is what the voice of reason looks like.
I love how people keep calling a set low power level without even playing with the cards, time will tell, it might be it might not, at least back up your claims with facts... which you don't have right now and won't have until people have played with the set.
When "I don't like brewing with these cards" is met with "you haven't brewed with these cards!" it kind of sounds like people aren't listening and would respond to any complaint with "you don't know what you're talking about." Which is how we get in these circular discussion...
That is exactly correct. And it's why I've previously referenced it as Stockholm Syndrome. They are so in love with the set for whatever reason that they are unwilling to look at it objectively and/or entertain any form of legitimate criticism against it.
Oh yeah, people excited to play with these cards are just suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Every card is objectively terrible in every possible situation and no card from this set will see play in any format ever. Just like Treasure Cruise. And Desecration Demon. And Stormbreath Dragon. And Stoneforge Mystic. I guess that's why all of the card sites are pre-selling cards for pennies. Because they won't be able to burn them for heat, let alone sell them.
Your absolute arrogance is unreal.
So, your answer to "you're unwilling to look at it objectively and/or entertain criticism" is to sarcastically list a bunch of cards that were good and/or waiting to be broken from the second they were spoiled? Desecration Demon was glutted in a format he couldn't thrive in, but 1 block later his power level shined with Devotion. Stormbreath was in deck brew before the prerelease. Modern was trying to break Treasure Cruise Day 1. Stoneforge was printed in a Standard with no impressive equipment. I'm sorry, but where are these cards in BFZ that we missed? The number of 'build around me' cards is terribly small.
From where I'm sitting, you're the one jumping to conclusions to say this set has a Stormbreath or a Stoneforge in it. I'll reserve judgement for that when rotation comes, but objectively, people are already brewing Standard decks that are practically Khans block decks and calling it a day. Your post seems to support the irrational blind defense of the set you were arguing against.
I would like everyone to notice that in this set, there are no vanilla creatures. Devoid, Ingest and the ally subtype took care of that, and therefore makes drafting deeper as each card can potentially fit into a strategy in some way.
I played two prereleases and did not enjoy either of them. I pulled a Gideon and an Ulamog. I still would rather have prefered to order singles and forget this set ever existed rather than paying 50 Great British Pounds ($75) on a terrible prerelease experience.
I don't understand people like this. They say that the set is complete garbage and they still go to the prerelease or say: meh, I will only buy two fat packs and a box and be done with the set! I thought you hated it?
We get it - expeditions are a way for them to make money, but if you knew about original Zendikar's "Hidden Treasures" you should have known to expect something like this.
Except that in original Zendikar, even if you didn't open one of the hidden treasures you were still satisfied with the pack.
I also don't understand what Teysa has to do with BFZ?
Teysa was cool, flavorful and playable back in Guildpact, so people were really excited for her in Dragon's Maze. In DGM she was neither cool, flavorful nor playable. Do you now see the similarities with BFZ?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
I also don't understand what Teysa has to do with BFZ?
Teysa was cool, flavorful and playable back in Guildpact, so people were really excited for her in Dragon's Maze. In DGM she was neither cool, flavorful nor playable. Do you now see the similarities with BFZ?
Question wasn't really directed at you, but I'll respond anyway. First off, I thought Teysa was very cool. I have a commander deck for her that is very fun to play. Its the deck I go to when I'm playing with more casual people. Protection from Creatures is a cool ability, and the pillow fort she provides is interesting in multiplayer as well. So she was both cool and playable IMO. Its true she wasn't designed for standard/modern, but if that is your metric for what makes a design good, then you are going to be disappointed (almost) always.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I also don't understand what Teysa has to do with BFZ?
Teysa was cool, flavorful and playable back in Guildpact, so people were really excited for her in Dragon's Maze. In DGM she was neither cool, flavorful nor playable. Do you now see the similarities with BFZ?
Question wasn't really directed at you, but I'll respond anyway. First off, I thought Teysa was very cool. I have a commander deck for her that is very fun to play. Its the deck I go to when I'm playing with more casual people. Protection from Creatures is a cool ability, and the pillow fort she provides is interesting in multiplayer as well. So she was both cool and playable IMO. Its true she wasn't designed for standard/modern, but if that is your metric for what makes a design good, then you are going to be disappointed always.
I'm not a competitive player. I don't care about standard/modern. So...no, I don't judge cards on their playability in those formats. But I just don't get how is an advisor a freaking 4/4! And she costs 7. She could as well cost a million.
I understand that she can't be the same Teysa from Guildpact but they just went in a complete different direction with her. People have certain expectations, and when you don't meet them, they end up disappointed. Maro himself said that. Now they are making the same mistake in BFZ.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Eldrazi in general are incredibly boring with some exceptions.
Void Winower is a good Eldrazi design because it represents the weirdness and insane size of what an eldrazi should be.Then we get Endless One, a boring vanilla that can be 1/1.A freaking 1/1 eldrazi.
I'm not a competitive player. I don't care about standard/modern. So...no, I don't judge cards on their playability in those formats. But I just don't get how is an advisor a freaking 4/4! And she costs 7. She could as well cost a million.
I understand that she can't be the same Teysa from Guildpact but they just went in a complete different direction with her. People have certain expectations, and when you don't meet them, they end up disappointed. Maro himself said that. Now they are making the same mistake in BFZ.
Well, Teysa is more than just some random adviser. She is the highest ranking living member of Orzhov, the only orzhov member who rivals the power of the Obzedat. She directly serves the obzedat, hence her title as the Envoy of Ghosts. The only thing I would change about the new teysa, is her pillowfort ability. Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts should exile creatures that deal damage to you rather then destroying them to be more in line mechanically with the previous Teysa. It's a very small change.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
for what it's worth, as an 'everyman' kind of player who's been around since the beginning and tried my hand at basically everything the game has to offer, i really like this set.
there's no objective way i could convince any of you of this, it's just my opinion.
*shrug*.
y'all should lay off the arguing and fact-quoting and "my opinion is more correct than yours" nonsense. people are taking this way too seriously. it's a game, after all. even if a few rare individuals happen to make some money playing it, it's still very much there as a form of entertainment, just like Risk, Mouse Trap or Cards Against Humanity. chill out peeps and don't be afraid to enjoy something without having to criticise it like it's the new Phantom Menace or something. lol
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
You see, most of us are actually doing the opposite, you have an actual complaint about the set, go ahead, let's discuss it, I think X card had potential, but it lacks x, y or z, or I believe this cards are badly positioned because of this and this, just saying "this set is low power level" because of reasons (which you don't state), is gonna be meet with... Play with the cards for more than a prerelease, make decks, test them for more than 5 minutes, then you can actually share your conclusions.
I think Blight Herder has potential but it lacks an strong payoff for the setup it requires.
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger is badly positioned because there are better things to cheat into play in Legacy and better things to ramp to in Standard.
We've already been there. You can pretend the power-level of Standard hasn't been lowered, but that's incredibly naive. It's just a matter of math.
Now as far as whether the new Standard will be fun or not, that's a matter of taste. I think most of the decks that are possible are obvious and boring because the new cards are obvious and boring. Take Jim Davis's recent post as an example. He lists three different versions of (obviously rough, since it's pre-week 1) "tap-out" style control decks, and then says "But what if you don't want to tap out? Not gonna lie, it's a bit rough." Now I'll readily admit I don't pay enough attention to the subtleties of constructed magic, but look at that! One of the pros who's probably spent a lot more time looking at the problem than I have came to the same conclusion: the instant-speed options for control have been pretty seriously neutered. Now maybe some people like the idea that there will be a Standard where the big mean blue mages can't do anything to hurt you on your turn, but I personally prefer a game where both players have powerful interactive decks, and careful play is rewarded. Not that can't happen in the new environment, but nerfing the crap out of black is a step, in my opinion, in the wrong direction.
The power-level of old decks being reduced I could handle, there not being any interesting options for new decks I could handle, but having both happen at the same time kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If you think the first is invalid, I shift the burden of proof back on you -- show me a deck that uses new cards to make an impact on the Standard environment instead of just repeating, "well, you never know, they could be powerful."
If you think the second is invalid, that's kind of weird, because my taste is mine and your taste is yours. Which is fine, I'm just sick of people trying to say "you'd actually like these cards if you looked at them more." No, actually, I keep looking at them and I keep not liking them. I've considered the options, and decided the options suck. If I end up playing Standard tomorrow, it will most likely be aggro-red because that means I have to spend the least money on cards that won't have any value after they rotate. Sorry for not being gung-ho about our new Eldrazi overlords, but there we are.
I couldn't care less about the power level of the set. I just think that the design and flavor are very lazy. Except in once case: There's a Suntail Hawk printed in this set, that's a Kor Scout. I don't care what Owen Turtenwald says, Suntail Hawk's unplayable. As others mentioned, they made a ton of different Eldrazi with myriad abilities that have no theme whatsoever, except for the fact that they're devoid of color...except they have a color CMC. Zendikar evoked a sense of adventure. Maybe that's what this set is supposed to do. Show us that Zendikar is now devoid of anything cool. It's just a place where Eldrazi go around scuffing it up with the Zendikarians. It's a "Meanwhile, back on Zendikar"...theme and it just doesn't resonate with me.
I couldn't care less about the power level of the set. I just think that the design and flavor are very lazy. Except in once case: There's a Suntail Hawk printed in this set, that's a Kor Scout. I don't care what Owen Turtenwald says, Suntail Hawk's unplayable. As others mentioned, they made a ton of different Eldrazi with myriad abilities that have no theme whatsoever, except for the fact that they're devoid of color...except they have a color CMC. Zendikar evoked a sense of adventure. Maybe that's what this set is supposed to do. Show us that Zendikar is now devoid of anything cool. It's just a place where Eldrazi go around scuffing it up with the Zendikarians. It's a "Meanwhile, back on Zendikar"...theme and it just doesn't resonate with me.
I believe you just shoot yourself in the foot, deck's like that BW control deck are just the kind of deck that are possible with some of the new cards, it might not be the type of deck you like, but that's not the set's problem is it? As I said earlier, we are not gonna get the same cards/decks over and over again, actually back when WWK had just come out the predominant control deck was a UWr tapout Superfriends control deck, what's wrong with that?
As for Blight Herder, What did you play it with? What's your mark for "enough payoff"? What's your mark for "too much setup". Let's see how much set up it needs, a 5 colorless (lets not forget that part shall we?) mana 4/5 is not embarrassing, but it's not exactly what we call powerful, that's your floor. Now, how much set up do we need in order to play it? I'll leave the numbers to someone like Frank Karsten, but I think you need at least 12 ways to exile things before turn 5 or 6, so what are our enablers? Now these cards have to not be embarassing on their own, Jim Davis already put in some work for us:
Quarantine Field
Silkwrap
Stasis Snare
Transgress the Mind
Brutal Expulsion
Complete Disregard
Horribly Awry
Mardu Woe-Reaper
Oblivion Sower
Radiant Purge
Reality Shift
Spell Shrivel
Suspension Field
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Utter End
I'm stretching the definition of playable a little, some are sideboard cards, but I believe out of those cards, you can play enough to enable Blight Herder reliably without making your deck weak otherwise or even considering that your opponent might help you by playing delve cards, now for the payoff you get a 4/5 and 3 1/1's for 5 mana, that's 7 power across 4 bodies, not bad. Is it any good? I don't know, it's certainly a valid strategy, might be hindered because of Dromoka's command, as it depends a lot on enchantments, maybe a little too much, but in the right meta game it might work.
I'm stretching the definition of playable a little, some are sideboard cards, but I believe out of those cards, you can play enough to enable Blight Herder reliably without making your deck weak otherwise or even considering that your opponent might help you by playing delve cards, now for the payoff you get a 4/5 and 3 1/1's for 5 mana, that's 7 power across 4 bodies, not bad. Is it any good? I don't know, it's certainly a valid strategy, might be hindered because of Dromoka's command, as it depends a lot on enchantments, maybe a little too much, but in the right meta game it might work.
I will pie bet you that Blight Herder doesn't make it to a top 8.
I will pie bet you that Blight Herder doesn't make it to a top 8.
A top 8 of what exactly? Are we talking FNMs, or just the pro tour? Something in between? What top 8 are you referring to?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I'm stretching the definition of playable a little, some are sideboard cards, but I believe out of those cards, you can play enough to enable Blight Herder reliably without making your deck weak otherwise or even considering that your opponent might help you by playing delve cards, now for the payoff you get a 4/5 and 3 1/1's for 5 mana, that's 7 power across 4 bodies, not bad. Is it any good? I don't know, it's certainly a valid strategy, might be hindered because of Dromoka's command, as it depends a lot on enchantments, maybe a little too much, but in the right meta game it might work.
I will pie bet you that Blight Herder doesn't make it to a top 8.
Here we go again, I don't care specifically for Blight Herder, I was quoting someone else, he said, Blight Herder requires too much setup for little payoff, I don't believe that to be true, getting a 7 power across 4 bodies for 5 mana is a good payoff for doing very little 5 or 6 of those cards are playable on their own, but that's just the tip of the iceberg on deckbuilding, how does your deck matches up against the expected metagame? Is it weak to certain card or strategy? How prominent is that card/strategy at the moment?
My point is not to give you the next winning decklist, the point is, these cards are weird, no doubt about it, they need the right deck to shine, it's not like you have to actually play bad or embarrassing cards to get the payoff, and even if you had to, if the pay off is worth it, why not?
A 5 mana 4/5 is embarassing, yes. Because you just paid 5 mana. For a 4/5. Right now I'm having trouble believing you wouldn't defend this card if it cost 8 mana.
As for how much setup is too much, have you ever sat there with one of these cards in your hand and no way to get its trigger? Not fun. The problem with most of the cards in this set is that they not only restrict deck construction, they restrict play choices. Undergrowth Champion is another great example. To get it to do what it's supposed to do -- be hard for red to deal with -- you have to pass a certain number of checks. Did you play it on turn three? Check. Did they kill it before you untap? Oops! Maybe you wait until turn 4. Did they kill on turn 4 in response to your landfall trigger? Oops! Do they ever have a Wild Slash to ignore the ability? Oops! I would much prefer a card like Courser of Kruphix, which always does what it's supposed to do, and if it gets Roasted, fine, it got Roasted.
Drawing cards that work and playing them well while considering your opponent's responses is fun Magic (to me). Drawing cards that occasionally work if you pretend your opponent isn't there and your gamble pays off isn't fun Magic (to me). Converge is just the same as Processors is just the same as Awaken. A bunch of stuff that is only good if a bunch of conditions are met and is never really great. These mechanics restrict deckbuilding and push particular lines of play. You can always say about anything that maybe it will be good if, maybe you should test more, but there's always a Magical Christmas Land and there's always more playtesting. There's also always cards that will just be bad. These mechanics are unfun to play with, and part of that is due to their design.
Jim Davis's deck is probably fine, it just looks really boring. I certainly wouldn't shell out hundreds of dollars to play it. It, and the other cards, depend pretty heavily on cards from the previous sets, the ones that had a higher power-level, so that kind of just goes to prove that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is a good card. We already knew that.
And the last Standard? The Standard where we just got the same decks over and over again (even though we didn't)? I already saw the tap-out super-friends deck in that Standard. So if it's some sort of consolation prize for there being no Draw-Go control deck to play, doesn't really cut it. I'm not an idiot; I know that cards rotate. I don't want to play the exact same deck. But I'm going to, and so are a lot of people, because the neutered Khans/Origins decks are a lot better than anything BfZ has to offer.
It'll be fine when Khans rotates, because then things will be more balanced. But don't pretend people aren't trying to polish the turd here. These cards, as a whole, are super-weak.
A 5 mana 4/5 is embarassing, yes. Because you just paid 5 mana. For a 4/5. Right now I'm having trouble believing you wouldn't defend this card if it cost 8 mana.
A 4/5 matches up quite well with other threats in the format. I don't see why a 4/5 body should be anything to complain about. If this card cost 8 mana, it would be totally unplayable. At 5 mana, it seems to me like a strong card that could see play. After all, a 7 power across 4 bodies with upside for 5 mana is actually a very very strong card. If the card didn't have the exile cost, it would be more omnipresent than hangarback walker is now.
As for how much setup is too much, have you ever sat there with one of these cards in your hand and no way to get its trigger? Not fun.
This complaint is absurd. Effects have costs. I would argue that being in a situation where I can't use the exile ability on turn 5 is less unfun than not being able to cast Siege Rhino on turn 4 or mantis rider on turn 3. All three of these cards have difficult costs associated with their power, but I don't here you complaining about the other cards.
The problem with most of the cards in this set is that they not only restrict deck construction, they restrict play choices. Undergrowth Champion is another great example.
Undergrowth champion is an excellent counter example to your claim. Its a card that is hard to play and requires you to read your opponent to get maximum value out of. Do you run it out on turn 3? You can't trigger landfall to protect it from burn, but does your opponent have burn? Do I wait until turn 4, when its safer to play because I can trigger landfall immediately? It is actively opening play choices by offering reasons to play it on different turns. Compare to Siege Rhino for example. What incentive does siege rhino offer to do anythin other than play it asap. There are no questions involved. If you draw a hand with nothing but a Champion and Lands, then you have to make a potentially difficult decision about whether or not to run it out on turn 3 or turn 4. There is choice. Compare that to drawing a hand of land and siege rhino. No play choice here, you just play it as soon as possible. Undergrowth champion increases play choices by giving you reasons to play it at different times.
Converge is just the same as Processors is just the same as Awaken. A bunch of stuff that is only good if a bunch of conditions are met and is never really great. These mechanics restrict deckbuilding and push particular lines of play.
Converge just asks you to play more colors, something people always want to do, but rarely have the land to support. With the combination of fetches and Battle Lands, we have the land to easily support 3-5 color, and converge in general. Awaken has literally no conditions. Its just kicker. What are you even talking about?
So if it's some sort of consolation prize for there being no Draw-Go control deck to play, doesn't really cut it.
Draw go actually got some really useful tools in the blighted lands, manlands, and a bunch of new counterspells. I don't think it will be a deck, because wizards has actively designed to suppress draw-go for years, but even expecting draw-go control to be good is niave. No one likes playing against Draw-go, and wizards knows it.
It'll be fine when Khans rotates, because then things will be more balanced. But don't pretend people aren't trying to polish the turd here. These cards, as a whole, are super-weak.
Please post any kind of analysis suggesting that this is true, and then I will entertain your hypothesis.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
It's clear to me that you can't or won't analyze anything, you don't even realize that courser does have a setup cost in order to be more than a 3 mana 2/4, and siege rhino also has a setup cost in order to not be an uncastable card in your hand, now you see the floor on those cards? Or you can't even see that?
What's wrong with converge? In limited it's not spectacular, as most of the time you are not getting all the millage you want, but constructed is a different story, you can control how many cards you draw and how much life you loose, you can control how much damage you do, those are interesting cards that lead to interesting gameplay decisions, I guess WotC could just print ancestral recall and call it a day, but if that's your complain, I'm guessing most set will disappoint you, regardless of what's in them.
That deck is just an example, it might or might not be boring, but I'd rather have that than cast siege rhinos for the next 4 months... again, that's much more boring.
So you basically want a draw go deck? Well, too bad, nobody likes to play against those, they are not interesting or skill testing, and they are both easy to beat and pilot, regardless of what you think, they are just annoying and boring to play against, but I guess to each his own, sadly for you, WotC agrees and they don't support that strategy as much.
You haven't played a single game of standard with BfZ, how on earth can you even start to support that claim? Ohh yeah, you can't
Courser of Kruphix doesn't require any setup, the only resources invested into it and required beforehand is 3 green mana. It then spouts card advantage and lifegain at no further cost. Being unreliable after the fact isn't the same as being unreliable to drop in the first place. The processor mechanic means your cards are either dead or underpowered unless you can fulfill their condition first. They are conditional, requiring setup. Cards like courser, on the other hand, are fire and forget, drop in any board state and let it rain afterwards. The only meta resource you've invested into it is the deckbuilding requirement of "running lands", which isn't a hurdle at all for any format its to be considered in.
Converge is a bad mechanic for a few reasons. One is the lackluster support in limited, theres simply not enough mana fixing, especially with the gimping of mana dorks, so unlike sunburst which was drafted alongside cards such as pentad prism and dawn's reflection, converge whiffs a great deal. Further, the mechanic itself is just a pseudoreprint of sunburst anyway. We've already had this mechanic, why do we need such a slight variation on it again? Its poor design. If you suggested this in the creativity forums, the only responses you'd get is "Sunburst already exists". Of course a mechanic is going to disappoint if it doesn't tread any new design space. Imagine if we got flying / horsemanship / shadow 4.0 in the next set, people would scream bloody murder at how stupid it is, and rightly so.
Oh and while wizards have indeed gimped draw/go in standard, particularly considering the power of control vs aggro, some of the real underdog stars of BFZ happen to be cards that draw/go would have killed for in its prime. Cards like spawning bed and blighted mire in a standard with thopter foundry and mage-ring network, sure, you can't play them all with a colorless base, but yikes.
Yeah, I'm sure there's been so many card that compared favorably to courser of kruphix printed recently, uh?
Still, 4/5 + 3 1/1 that give mana for 5 CMC is a really, really good card. If you aim to play the card, getting 2 exiled card by the time you get to 5 mana should not be very hard.
It's clear to me that you can't or won't analyze anything, you don't even realize that courser does have a setup cost in order to be more than a 3 mana 2/4, and siege rhino also has a setup cost in order to not be an uncastable card in your hand, now you see the floor on those cards? Or you can't even see that?
What's wrong with converge? In limited it's not spectacular, as most of the time you are not getting all the millage you want, but constructed is a different story, you can control how many cards you draw and how much life you loose, you can control how much damage you do, those are interesting cards that lead to interesting gameplay decisions, I guess WotC could just print ancestral recall and call it a day, but if that's your complain, I'm guessing most set will disappoint you, regardless of what's in them.
That deck is just an example, it might or might not be boring, but I'd rather have that than cast siege rhinos for the next 4 months... again, that's much more boring.
So you basically want a draw go deck? Well, too bad, nobody likes to play against those, they are not interesting or skill testing, and they are both easy to beat and pilot, regardless of what you think, they are just annoying and boring to play against, but I guess to each his own, sadly for you, WotC agrees and they don't support that strategy as much.
You haven't played a single game of standard with BfZ, how on earth can you even start to support that claim? Ohh yeah, you can't
Actually... Draw-Go style control is one of the more difficult type of decks to pilot - especially when your options on premium removal and counterspells are severely gimped.
Let's not forget that Silumgar's Scorn is still in standard, so dragons is a viable tapout or draw-go type control deck still, in several colors.
I for one personally think that as a Draw-Go style lover and pilot it requires a lot of math and calculation, as virtually every draw step is "What am I looking for?" and "What did I get?" followed by "What can I do with it?" Not to mention you have to know your deck like the back of your hand, remember your sideboard and what you boarded in/out, remember what lifegain options you have to know how much damage to take vs. your available resources so you know when your hand is forced and you have to pull the trigger on something.
Contrary to popular belief, Draw-Go is not just 1-for-1 you all day until your deck no longer exists - we are working with a very limited supply of resources and threats compared to an aggro/midrange deck's seemingly endless slew of obscenities we're forced to deal with.
As far as Siege Rhino goes, I don't think my opinion can even be reasonably counted, as I hate that card with a burning passion that I haven't felt since I first fell in love.
Siege Rhino is to me, for all intents and purposes, the worst card WotC has ever made the mistake of letting through to the standard environment, and I will from now until forever, regard it as the only rare that I will happily tear in half or burn upon opening in a pack.
That being said, you're correct, three color cards like Siege Rhino do require a bit of preparation to be ready to hit the field by turn four, as does our friend mister processor. The only difference being while one requires lands to be set up correctly, another requires plays to be setup correctly. A turn two Transgress, turn three-four Horribly Awry is not an awful line, and after that you're totally set up.
Let's look at the facts here - both Herder and Siege Rhino are 4/5s with relatively even mana costs, and let me explain why. Blight Herder costs an additional 1 colorless mana for the same body. Why is this? Because he requires no specific colors - so any sort of incidental mana produced from any effect can be used to cast him. He does not punish your land base for choosing an incorrect fetch/fetching the wrong land, and he will always be able to be dropped when you have 5 untapped lands, granted that all 5 produce mana.
On the other hand, Siege Rhino costs 1 less colorless, so he has the potential to come down 1 turn earlier, meaning he can attack one turn earlier. However his effect is boring and requires almost no real sense of timing or skill to be played correctly. He is literally, lightning helix on a 4/5 trample body, and nothing else. He is, of course cheaper due to the fact that his mana cost is highly restrictive. You must have access to one of each Abzan color on turn 4, as well as another source that can be from anywhere. Siege Rhino can only be played in Abzan colored decks, or decks that included Abzan in their colors(4c/5c). To me, Siege Rhino is a boring card. It is a "Play me on turn 4 to pressure your opponents with no real downside" card, and cards like that, to me, mightaswell be vanilla. It is a must-counter, and I would venture to say that depending on your ability to handle something that can't be hit by languish - it is a must-exile, as recurring Rhinos is not a battle I'd like to be fighting when my plan is to kill you with ~4 swings of mighty Dragonlord Ojutai.
This ended up being slightly more than I meant for it to be, but this is my analysis of the Rhino/Herder comparison, and why these cards are in two different sets, and have two different uses.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Meh
Modern BUWEsper ControlWUB BRUGrixis DelverURB WRBGKiki ChordGBRW WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW BRGJundGRB
Courser of Kruphix doesn't require any setup, the only resources invested into it and required beforehand is 3 green mana. It then spouts card advantage and lifegain at no further cost. Being unreliable after the fact isn't the same as being unreliable to drop in the first place. The processor mechanic means your cards are either dead or underpowered unless you can fulfill their condition first. They are conditional, requiring setup. Cards like courser, on the other hand, are fire and forget, drop in any board state and let it rain afterwards. The only meta resource you've invested into it is the deckbuilding requirement of "running lands", which isn't a hurdle at all for any format its to be considered in.
Converge is a bad mechanic for a few reasons. One is the lackluster support in limited, theres simply not enough mana fixing, especially with the gimping of mana dorks, so unlike sunburst which was drafted alongside cards such as pentad prism and dawn's reflection, converge whiffs a great deal. Further, the mechanic itself is just a pseudoreprint of sunburst anyway. We've already had this mechanic, why do we need such a slight variation on it again? Its poor design. If you suggested this in the creativity forums, the only responses you'd get is "Sunburst already exists". Of course a mechanic is going to disappoint if it doesn't tread any new design space. Imagine if we got flying / horsemanship / shadow 4.0 in the next set, people would scream bloody murder at how stupid it is, and rightly so.
Oh and while wizards have indeed gimped draw/go in standard, particularly considering the power of control vs aggro, some of the real underdog stars of BFZ happen to be cards that draw/go would have killed for in its prime. Cards like spawning bed and blighted mire in a standard with thopter foundry and mage-ring network, sure, you can't play them all with a colorless base, but yikes.
Deckbuilding cost is a setup cost, you can allways cast it, don't have a land, get none from the top and you have to pass the turn, or you play it on turn 3 and it get's killed, it's just a 3 mana 2/4 that revealed the top of your library to your opponent, I'm not saying it's a bad card, but you obviously have to play it in a deck with a high land count, and all of that is a cost, I'm not saying they are even on the same league mainly because Blight Herder is not even close to be one of the best cards in this set, and courser is the best card from Born of the gods, but again if your aim is to play it, it is barely a deckbuilding restriction as the cards you need to get the full potential are good on their own, it is a play restriction, but it's already what you want to be doing, and if you are not doing it, you are probably misplaying the deck.
You don't like converge because you can't play 5 colors in limited? most cards are balanced to give you fair value at 2 colors, so I don't see this problem in limited, and there's 2 good green fixers at common if you want to play the converge deck, so either you are expecting too much or are really bad at drafting.
As for draw go, whatever you are on, I want too, because you are clearly delusional, "Agro beats Control beats Combo beats Aggro", that's how it was in the old days of draw go, the archetype was nerfed because it was unfun, not because it was unbeatable, far from it, somehow people have engraved in their minds that control decks of old could beat anything, and believe me that was not the case, there were better tools for control because spells were more powerful in general and creatures were less powerful, but you could always beat control if you knew what you were doing. Sure a control deck can be geared towards beating a expected metagame, but that's still the case (not just with control but with most archetypes).
Courser of Kruphix doesn't require any setup, the only resources invested into it and required beforehand is 3 green mana. It then spouts card advantage and lifegain at no further cost. Being unreliable after the fact isn't the same as being unreliable to drop in the first place. The processor mechanic means your cards are either dead or underpowered unless you can fulfill their condition first. They are conditional, requiring setup. Cards like courser, on the other hand, are fire and forget, drop in any board state and let it rain afterwards. The only meta resource you've invested into it is the deckbuilding requirement of "running lands", which isn't a hurdle at all for any format its to be considered in.
Converge is a bad mechanic for a few reasons. One is the lackluster support in limited, theres simply not enough mana fixing, especially with the gimping of mana dorks, so unlike sunburst which was drafted alongside cards such as pentad prism and dawn's reflection, converge whiffs a great deal. Further, the mechanic itself is just a pseudoreprint of sunburst anyway. We've already had this mechanic, why do we need such a slight variation on it again? Its poor design. If you suggested this in the creativity forums, the only responses you'd get is "Sunburst already exists". Of course a mechanic is going to disappoint if it doesn't tread any new design space. Imagine if we got flying / horsemanship / shadow 4.0 in the next set, people would scream bloody murder at how stupid it is, and rightly so.
Oh and while wizards have indeed gimped draw/go in standard, particularly considering the power of control vs aggro, some of the real underdog stars of BFZ happen to be cards that draw/go would have killed for in its prime. Cards like spawning bed and blighted mire in a standard with thopter foundry and mage-ring network, sure, you can't play them all with a colorless base, but yikes.
Deckbuilding cost is a setup cost, you can allways cast it, don't have a land, get none from the top and you have to pass the turn, or you play it on turn 3 and it get's killed, it's just a 3 mana 2/4 that revealed the top of your library to your opponent, I'm not saying it's a bad card, but you obviously have to play it in a deck with a high land count, and all of that is a cost, I'm not saying they are even on the same league mainly because Blight Herder is not even close to be one of the best cards in this set, and courser is the best card from Born of the gods, but again if your aim is to play it, it is barely a deckbuilding restriction as the cards you need to get the full potential are good on their own, it is a play restriction, but it's already what you want to be doing, and if you are not doing it, you are probably misplaying the deck.
You don't like converge because you can't play 5 colors in limited? most cards are balanced to give you fair value at 2 colors, so I don't see this problem in limited, and there's 2 good green fixers at common if you want to play the converge deck, so either you are expecting too much or are really bad at drafting.
As for draw go, whatever you are on, I want too, because you are clearly delusional, "Agro beats Control beats Combo beats Aggro", that's how it was in the old days of draw go, the archetype was nerfed because it was unfun, not because it was unbeatable, far from it, somehow people have engraved in their minds that control decks of old could beat anything, and believe me that was not the case, there were better tools for control because spells were more powerful in general and creatures were less powerful, but you could always beat control if you knew what you were doing. Sure a control deck can be geared towards beating a expected metagame, but that's still the case (not just with control but with most archetypes).
As far as draw-go is concerned - I am well aware that it is not, nor has in ever been an "unbeatable deck" and I did not say anything about it being unbeatable. I said it was a difficult deck to pilot properly, and very fun and rewarding in my opinion to try your hand at. I have never found play with, or against, any style of control to be unfun(besides "lantern control", that's a mean deck and anyone who plays it knows that) because playing non-control v control forces you to think. "What might they have in their hand?" "What is their definition of a lethal enough threat to counter?" "How can I get what I really want on the field to resolve?"
And sometimes it's as simple as faking it. Running out something that you have no actual followup for, while giving the impression that you have a bigger, better followup can trick control players into thinking they can let some damage slip through, or a spell through. Control v Control is even more of a headache, but that's the type of games I live for. Games that make me really stop and think, "When does this need to hit the battlefield?" and "How do I slip it through under countermagic?"
I have never found a game with or against control to be unfun unless my opening draw was unfun in and of itself.
Edit: Deckbuilding is a setup cost, so to speak, and synergies within cards in your deck are reasons you run certain cards over others. I don't find courser of kruphix to really "require" any sort of decktech to know "When to put it in the deck", however it, like most other cards isn't a card will just, on its own with no help, make a deck strictly better. But at this point if anyone expects a card that's good enough for every deck to want it, you'll always be disappointed. I feel like courser is a horrible comparison to herder in this case - a better comparison imo is Young Pyromancer. This is a card that can't just "go in every red deck because reasons." You want to know how to set it up, how to get value and mileage out of it, know when to drop it, know when to just run it out as a 2 drop for lack of a better play... because much like Blight Herder, it can generate some pretty good value if dropped at the right time on an unsuspecting opponent, or can look like just another Electrolyze target. But to each their own.
I've played Courser, I know is powerful but it's not my cup of tea so I'm usually on the other side of the table beating it down, to put this in context, again I'm not saying that it's a bad card or that it's worst than Blight Herder, Blight Herder was just an example someone else gave, I honestly don't remember if it was you, the point being made was "It requires too much setup for too little payoff", well let's analyze that and gave a slew of cards that enable Blight Herder without sacrificing power in your deck, then someone said i like Courser and Rhino better because they require no setup to be strong, they definitely require less setup, but if you want to get mileage out of them you have to set them up a little, and again If you compare the best cards from 2 sets with Blight Herder that is nowhere near the top of this one, it's pretty obvious which is gonna turn out to be stronger, but my point stands, this set is deceptively strong, most of it's cards are not obvious autoincludes in existing decks, they require to be built around a little, but the payoff are there and you don't have to go too much out of your way, many of them already reward you for doing what you wanted to do. By the way, on the blight hearded argument, the card you were looking for is Wingmate rock, that card does put Blight Herder to shame, because it goes almost in any deck you can play Blight Herder on and the only set up it requires is attack with a creature before, you still can make the argument that in a deck with no creatures before turn 5, Blight Herder is better, but just to be clear, I wouldn't play Blight Herder either right now, because it doesn't match up well against the upcoming metagame. My point all along was, this set is so well designed that in less than 5 minutes in gatherer, I was able to list more than 15 cards that casually enable processors.
As for Draw go control decks,you are actually in a huge mistake, draw go decks were both unfun and relatively easy to play, because you could do anything in your opponent's turn, if they had a treat big enough, you kill it in their turn, if not, hold countermagic, if they didn't play anything, draw cards, that's not skillful playing, now you have to decide whether you want to tap out for removal or draw cards, or hold countermagic, they even were nice enough to give you removal wrath and counters that double as threats, even card draw, although that one is not as exciting.
The other point with draw go decks of old is, not only were they not that hard to beat if you knew what you were doing, they were boring to play and play against, the most common ways to win against them included as you might guess early pressure, then playing draw go until you either choke them on mana or had more cards than they did (the old 8 vs 7), that wasn't fun for either player. Yes, aggro decks are easier to pick up, but they are just as difficult to play correctly, and are very punishing for playing incorrectly, control decks have for the most part the same amount of decisions, they are just spread across more turns and are more forgiving of mistakes, in an aggro deck fetching the wrong land or missing on one or two points of damage early means you are gonna loose, and you need to do a lot of math if you want to properly play an aggro deck.
I agree this is the worst set ever. The design is just lazy. Take existing cards and slap awaken on them. Boring non-mechanics like devoid. Awaken in itself is super boring. Reminds me of megamorph. It seems WotC like to make mechanics which put out +1/+1 counters for paying extra. The flavor of allies doesn't make any sense. In the original allies were bands of adventurers, mercenaries. Now they affect all creatures, meaning they are all united against the Eldrazi right? Except this would mean everyone should be an ally, fighting against the Eldrazi. But they're not for some reason. It seems completely arbitary who is an ally and who isn't. And again this set is about two sides fightning for the fate of a whole world...
I don't care if the cards are weak but they are just boring. The art is generic and mostly bad. And everyone who defends this with bringing up Homelands; Not only are you bringing up a set which was made 15+ years ago, before they did masterpieces like Ravnica and TS, but Homelands was probably a better set then this anyway. I'd take Homelands over this generic crap any day.
So, your answer to "you're unwilling to look at it objectively and/or entertain criticism" is to sarcastically list a bunch of cards that were good and/or waiting to be broken from the second they were spoiled? Desecration Demon was glutted in a format he couldn't thrive in, but 1 block later his power level shined with Devotion. Stormbreath was in deck brew before the prerelease. Modern was trying to break Treasure Cruise Day 1. Stoneforge was printed in a Standard with no impressive equipment. I'm sorry, but where are these cards in BFZ that we missed? The number of 'build around me' cards is terribly small.
From where I'm sitting, you're the one jumping to conclusions to say this set has a Stormbreath or a Stoneforge in it. I'll reserve judgement for that when rotation comes, but objectively, people are already brewing Standard decks that are practically Khans block decks and calling it a day. Your post seems to support the irrational blind defense of the set you were arguing against.
In what strategy does Broodhunter Wurm help?
I don't understand people like this. They say that the set is complete garbage and they still go to the prerelease or say: meh, I will only buy two fat packs and a box and be done with the set! I thought you hated it?
Except that in original Zendikar, even if you didn't open one of the hidden treasures you were still satisfied with the pack.
Yes.
Teysa was cool, flavorful and playable back in Guildpact, so people were really excited for her in Dragon's Maze. In DGM she was neither cool, flavorful nor playable. Do you now see the similarities with BFZ?
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Question wasn't really directed at you, but I'll respond anyway. First off, I thought Teysa was very cool. I have a commander deck for her that is very fun to play. Its the deck I go to when I'm playing with more casual people. Protection from Creatures is a cool ability, and the pillow fort she provides is interesting in multiplayer as well. So she was both cool and playable IMO. Its true she wasn't designed for standard/modern, but if that is your metric for what makes a design good, then you are going to be disappointed (almost) always.
- Manite
I'm not a competitive player. I don't care about standard/modern. So...no, I don't judge cards on their playability in those formats. But I just don't get how is an advisor a freaking 4/4! And she costs 7. She could as well cost a million.
I understand that she can't be the same Teysa from Guildpact but they just went in a complete different direction with her. People have certain expectations, and when you don't meet them, they end up disappointed. Maro himself said that. Now they are making the same mistake in BFZ.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Void Winower is a good Eldrazi design because it represents the weirdness and insane size of what an eldrazi should be.Then we get Endless One, a boring vanilla that can be 1/1.A freaking 1/1 eldrazi.
Well, Teysa is more than just some random adviser. She is the highest ranking living member of Orzhov, the only orzhov member who rivals the power of the Obzedat. She directly serves the obzedat, hence her title as the Envoy of Ghosts. The only thing I would change about the new teysa, is her pillowfort ability. Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts should exile creatures that deal damage to you rather then destroying them to be more in line mechanically with the previous Teysa. It's a very small change.
- Manite
there's no objective way i could convince any of you of this, it's just my opinion.
*shrug*.
y'all should lay off the arguing and fact-quoting and "my opinion is more correct than yours" nonsense. people are taking this way too seriously. it's a game, after all. even if a few rare individuals happen to make some money playing it, it's still very much there as a form of entertainment, just like Risk, Mouse Trap or Cards Against Humanity. chill out peeps and don't be afraid to enjoy something without having to criticise it like it's the new Phantom Menace or something. lol
I think Blight Herder has potential but it lacks an strong payoff for the setup it requires.
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger is badly positioned because there are better things to cheat into play in Legacy and better things to ramp to in Standard.
We've already been there. You can pretend the power-level of Standard hasn't been lowered, but that's incredibly naive. It's just a matter of math.
Now as far as whether the new Standard will be fun or not, that's a matter of taste. I think most of the decks that are possible are obvious and boring because the new cards are obvious and boring. Take Jim Davis's recent post as an example. He lists three different versions of (obviously rough, since it's pre-week 1) "tap-out" style control decks, and then says "But what if you don't want to tap out? Not gonna lie, it's a bit rough." Now I'll readily admit I don't pay enough attention to the subtleties of constructed magic, but look at that! One of the pros who's probably spent a lot more time looking at the problem than I have came to the same conclusion: the instant-speed options for control have been pretty seriously neutered. Now maybe some people like the idea that there will be a Standard where the big mean blue mages can't do anything to hurt you on your turn, but I personally prefer a game where both players have powerful interactive decks, and careful play is rewarded. Not that can't happen in the new environment, but nerfing the crap out of black is a step, in my opinion, in the wrong direction.
The power-level of old decks being reduced I could handle, there not being any interesting options for new decks I could handle, but having both happen at the same time kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If you think the first is invalid, I shift the burden of proof back on you -- show me a deck that uses new cards to make an impact on the Standard environment instead of just repeating, "well, you never know, they could be powerful."
If you think the second is invalid, that's kind of weird, because my taste is mine and your taste is yours. Which is fine, I'm just sick of people trying to say "you'd actually like these cards if you looked at them more." No, actually, I keep looking at them and I keep not liking them. I've considered the options, and decided the options suck. If I end up playing Standard tomorrow, it will most likely be aggro-red because that means I have to spend the least money on cards that won't have any value after they rotate. Sorry for not being gung-ho about our new Eldrazi overlords, but there we are.
Also, where the hell are Emrakul and Kozilek?
Somewhere else avoiding this block set
As for Blight Herder, What did you play it with? What's your mark for "enough payoff"? What's your mark for "too much setup". Let's see how much set up it needs, a 5 colorless (lets not forget that part shall we?) mana 4/5 is not embarrassing, but it's not exactly what we call powerful, that's your floor. Now, how much set up do we need in order to play it? I'll leave the numbers to someone like Frank Karsten, but I think you need at least 12 ways to exile things before turn 5 or 6, so what are our enablers? Now these cards have to not be embarassing on their own, Jim Davis already put in some work for us:
Quarantine Field
Silkwrap
Stasis Snare
Transgress the Mind
Brutal Expulsion
Complete Disregard
Horribly Awry
Mardu Woe-Reaper
Oblivion Sower
Radiant Purge
Reality Shift
Spell Shrivel
Suspension Field
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Utter End
I'm stretching the definition of playable a little, some are sideboard cards, but I believe out of those cards, you can play enough to enable Blight Herder reliably without making your deck weak otherwise or even considering that your opponent might help you by playing delve cards, now for the payoff you get a 4/5 and 3 1/1's for 5 mana, that's 7 power across 4 bodies, not bad. Is it any good? I don't know, it's certainly a valid strategy, might be hindered because of Dromoka's command, as it depends a lot on enchantments, maybe a little too much, but in the right meta game it might work.
I will pie bet you that Blight Herder doesn't make it to a top 8.
- Manite
A big prize event such as an SCG or a GP.
Here we go again, I don't care specifically for Blight Herder, I was quoting someone else, he said, Blight Herder requires too much setup for little payoff, I don't believe that to be true, getting a 7 power across 4 bodies for 5 mana is a good payoff for doing very little 5 or 6 of those cards are playable on their own, but that's just the tip of the iceberg on deckbuilding, how does your deck matches up against the expected metagame? Is it weak to certain card or strategy? How prominent is that card/strategy at the moment?
My point is not to give you the next winning decklist, the point is, these cards are weird, no doubt about it, they need the right deck to shine, it's not like you have to actually play bad or embarrassing cards to get the payoff, and even if you had to, if the pay off is worth it, why not?
As for how much setup is too much, have you ever sat there with one of these cards in your hand and no way to get its trigger? Not fun. The problem with most of the cards in this set is that they not only restrict deck construction, they restrict play choices. Undergrowth Champion is another great example. To get it to do what it's supposed to do -- be hard for red to deal with -- you have to pass a certain number of checks. Did you play it on turn three? Check. Did they kill it before you untap? Oops! Maybe you wait until turn 4. Did they kill on turn 4 in response to your landfall trigger? Oops! Do they ever have a Wild Slash to ignore the ability? Oops! I would much prefer a card like Courser of Kruphix, which always does what it's supposed to do, and if it gets Roasted, fine, it got Roasted.
Drawing cards that work and playing them well while considering your opponent's responses is fun Magic (to me). Drawing cards that occasionally work if you pretend your opponent isn't there and your gamble pays off isn't fun Magic (to me). Converge is just the same as Processors is just the same as Awaken. A bunch of stuff that is only good if a bunch of conditions are met and is never really great. These mechanics restrict deckbuilding and push particular lines of play. You can always say about anything that maybe it will be good if, maybe you should test more, but there's always a Magical Christmas Land and there's always more playtesting. There's also always cards that will just be bad. These mechanics are unfun to play with, and part of that is due to their design.
Jim Davis's deck is probably fine, it just looks really boring. I certainly wouldn't shell out hundreds of dollars to play it. It, and the other cards, depend pretty heavily on cards from the previous sets, the ones that had a higher power-level, so that kind of just goes to prove that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is a good card. We already knew that.
And the last Standard? The Standard where we just got the same decks over and over again (even though we didn't)? I already saw the tap-out super-friends deck in that Standard. So if it's some sort of consolation prize for there being no Draw-Go control deck to play, doesn't really cut it. I'm not an idiot; I know that cards rotate. I don't want to play the exact same deck. But I'm going to, and so are a lot of people, because the neutered Khans/Origins decks are a lot better than anything BfZ has to offer.
It'll be fine when Khans rotates, because then things will be more balanced. But don't pretend people aren't trying to polish the turd here. These cards, as a whole, are super-weak.
This complaint is absurd. Effects have costs. I would argue that being in a situation where I can't use the exile ability on turn 5 is less unfun than not being able to cast Siege Rhino on turn 4 or mantis rider on turn 3. All three of these cards have difficult costs associated with their power, but I don't here you complaining about the other cards.
Undergrowth champion is an excellent counter example to your claim. Its a card that is hard to play and requires you to read your opponent to get maximum value out of. Do you run it out on turn 3? You can't trigger landfall to protect it from burn, but does your opponent have burn? Do I wait until turn 4, when its safer to play because I can trigger landfall immediately? It is actively opening play choices by offering reasons to play it on different turns. Compare to Siege Rhino for example. What incentive does siege rhino offer to do anythin other than play it asap. There are no questions involved. If you draw a hand with nothing but a Champion and Lands, then you have to make a potentially difficult decision about whether or not to run it out on turn 3 or turn 4. There is choice. Compare that to drawing a hand of land and siege rhino. No play choice here, you just play it as soon as possible. Undergrowth champion increases play choices by giving you reasons to play it at different times.
Converge just asks you to play more colors, something people always want to do, but rarely have the land to support. With the combination of fetches and Battle Lands, we have the land to easily support 3-5 color, and converge in general. Awaken has literally no conditions. Its just kicker. What are you even talking about?
Draw go actually got some really useful tools in the blighted lands, manlands, and a bunch of new counterspells. I don't think it will be a deck, because wizards has actively designed to suppress draw-go for years, but even expecting draw-go control to be good is niave. No one likes playing against Draw-go, and wizards knows it.
Please post any kind of analysis suggesting that this is true, and then I will entertain your hypothesis.
- Manite
What's wrong with converge? In limited it's not spectacular, as most of the time you are not getting all the millage you want, but constructed is a different story, you can control how many cards you draw and how much life you loose, you can control how much damage you do, those are interesting cards that lead to interesting gameplay decisions, I guess WotC could just print ancestral recall and call it a day, but if that's your complain, I'm guessing most set will disappoint you, regardless of what's in them.
That deck is just an example, it might or might not be boring, but I'd rather have that than cast siege rhinos for the next 4 months... again, that's much more boring.
So you basically want a draw go deck? Well, too bad, nobody likes to play against those, they are not interesting or skill testing, and they are both easy to beat and pilot, regardless of what you think, they are just annoying and boring to play against, but I guess to each his own, sadly for you, WotC agrees and they don't support that strategy as much.
You haven't played a single game of standard with BfZ, how on earth can you even start to support that claim? Ohh yeah, you can't
Converge is a bad mechanic for a few reasons. One is the lackluster support in limited, theres simply not enough mana fixing, especially with the gimping of mana dorks, so unlike sunburst which was drafted alongside cards such as pentad prism and dawn's reflection, converge whiffs a great deal. Further, the mechanic itself is just a pseudoreprint of sunburst anyway. We've already had this mechanic, why do we need such a slight variation on it again? Its poor design. If you suggested this in the creativity forums, the only responses you'd get is "Sunburst already exists". Of course a mechanic is going to disappoint if it doesn't tread any new design space. Imagine if we got flying / horsemanship / shadow 4.0 in the next set, people would scream bloody murder at how stupid it is, and rightly so.
Oh and while wizards have indeed gimped draw/go in standard, particularly considering the power of control vs aggro, some of the real underdog stars of BFZ happen to be cards that draw/go would have killed for in its prime. Cards like spawning bed and blighted mire in a standard with thopter foundry and mage-ring network, sure, you can't play them all with a colorless base, but yikes.
Still, 4/5 + 3 1/1 that give mana for 5 CMC is a really, really good card. If you aim to play the card, getting 2 exiled card by the time you get to 5 mana should not be very hard.
Actually... Draw-Go style control is one of the more difficult type of decks to pilot - especially when your options on premium removal and counterspells are severely gimped.
Let's not forget that Silumgar's Scorn is still in standard, so dragons is a viable tapout or draw-go type control deck still, in several colors.
I for one personally think that as a Draw-Go style lover and pilot it requires a lot of math and calculation, as virtually every draw step is "What am I looking for?" and "What did I get?" followed by "What can I do with it?" Not to mention you have to know your deck like the back of your hand, remember your sideboard and what you boarded in/out, remember what lifegain options you have to know how much damage to take vs. your available resources so you know when your hand is forced and you have to pull the trigger on something.
Contrary to popular belief, Draw-Go is not just 1-for-1 you all day until your deck no longer exists - we are working with a very limited supply of resources and threats compared to an aggro/midrange deck's seemingly endless slew of obscenities we're forced to deal with.
As far as Siege Rhino goes, I don't think my opinion can even be reasonably counted, as I hate that card with a burning passion that I haven't felt since I first fell in love.
Siege Rhino is to me, for all intents and purposes, the worst card WotC has ever made the mistake of letting through to the standard environment, and I will from now until forever, regard it as the only rare that I will happily tear in half or burn upon opening in a pack.
That being said, you're correct, three color cards like Siege Rhino do require a bit of preparation to be ready to hit the field by turn four, as does our friend mister processor. The only difference being while one requires lands to be set up correctly, another requires plays to be setup correctly. A turn two Transgress, turn three-four Horribly Awry is not an awful line, and after that you're totally set up.
Let's look at the facts here - both Herder and Siege Rhino are 4/5s with relatively even mana costs, and let me explain why.
Blight Herder costs an additional 1 colorless mana for the same body. Why is this? Because he requires no specific colors - so any sort of incidental mana produced from any effect can be used to cast him. He does not punish your land base for choosing an incorrect fetch/fetching the wrong land, and he will always be able to be dropped when you have 5 untapped lands, granted that all 5 produce mana.
On the other hand, Siege Rhino costs 1 less colorless, so he has the potential to come down 1 turn earlier, meaning he can attack one turn earlier. However his effect is boring and requires almost no real sense of timing or skill to be played correctly. He is literally, lightning helix on a 4/5 trample body, and nothing else. He is, of course cheaper due to the fact that his mana cost is highly restrictive. You must have access to one of each Abzan color on turn 4, as well as another source that can be from anywhere. Siege Rhino can only be played in Abzan colored decks, or decks that included Abzan in their colors(4c/5c). To me, Siege Rhino is a boring card. It is a "Play me on turn 4 to pressure your opponents with no real downside" card, and cards like that, to me, mightaswell be vanilla. It is a must-counter, and I would venture to say that depending on your ability to handle something that can't be hit by languish - it is a must-exile, as recurring Rhinos is not a battle I'd like to be fighting when my plan is to kill you with ~4 swings of mighty Dragonlord Ojutai.
This ended up being slightly more than I meant for it to be, but this is my analysis of the Rhino/Herder comparison, and why these cards are in two different sets, and have two different uses.
Meh
Modern
BUWEsper ControlWUB
BRUGrixis DelverURB
WRBGKiki ChordGBRW
WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW
BRGJundGRB
Legacy
UBRGrixis DelverRBU
Commander
Also meh
Deckbuilding cost is a setup cost, you can allways cast it, don't have a land, get none from the top and you have to pass the turn, or you play it on turn 3 and it get's killed, it's just a 3 mana 2/4 that revealed the top of your library to your opponent, I'm not saying it's a bad card, but you obviously have to play it in a deck with a high land count, and all of that is a cost, I'm not saying they are even on the same league mainly because Blight Herder is not even close to be one of the best cards in this set, and courser is the best card from Born of the gods, but again if your aim is to play it, it is barely a deckbuilding restriction as the cards you need to get the full potential are good on their own, it is a play restriction, but it's already what you want to be doing, and if you are not doing it, you are probably misplaying the deck.
You don't like converge because you can't play 5 colors in limited? most cards are balanced to give you fair value at 2 colors, so I don't see this problem in limited, and there's 2 good green fixers at common if you want to play the converge deck, so either you are expecting too much or are really bad at drafting.
As for draw go, whatever you are on, I want too, because you are clearly delusional, "Agro beats Control beats Combo beats Aggro", that's how it was in the old days of draw go, the archetype was nerfed because it was unfun, not because it was unbeatable, far from it, somehow people have engraved in their minds that control decks of old could beat anything, and believe me that was not the case, there were better tools for control because spells were more powerful in general and creatures were less powerful, but you could always beat control if you knew what you were doing. Sure a control deck can be geared towards beating a expected metagame, but that's still the case (not just with control but with most archetypes).
As far as draw-go is concerned - I am well aware that it is not, nor has in ever been an "unbeatable deck" and I did not say anything about it being unbeatable. I said it was a difficult deck to pilot properly, and very fun and rewarding in my opinion to try your hand at. I have never found play with, or against, any style of control to be unfun(besides "lantern control", that's a mean deck and anyone who plays it knows that) because playing non-control v control forces you to think. "What might they have in their hand?" "What is their definition of a lethal enough threat to counter?" "How can I get what I really want on the field to resolve?"
And sometimes it's as simple as faking it. Running out something that you have no actual followup for, while giving the impression that you have a bigger, better followup can trick control players into thinking they can let some damage slip through, or a spell through. Control v Control is even more of a headache, but that's the type of games I live for. Games that make me really stop and think, "When does this need to hit the battlefield?" and "How do I slip it through under countermagic?"
I have never found a game with or against control to be unfun unless my opening draw was unfun in and of itself.
Edit: Deckbuilding is a setup cost, so to speak, and synergies within cards in your deck are reasons you run certain cards over others. I don't find courser of kruphix to really "require" any sort of decktech to know "When to put it in the deck", however it, like most other cards isn't a card will just, on its own with no help, make a deck strictly better. But at this point if anyone expects a card that's good enough for every deck to want it, you'll always be disappointed. I feel like courser is a horrible comparison to herder in this case - a better comparison imo is Young Pyromancer. This is a card that can't just "go in every red deck because reasons." You want to know how to set it up, how to get value and mileage out of it, know when to drop it, know when to just run it out as a 2 drop for lack of a better play... because much like Blight Herder, it can generate some pretty good value if dropped at the right time on an unsuspecting opponent, or can look like just another Electrolyze target. But to each their own.
Meh
Modern
BUWEsper ControlWUB
BRUGrixis DelverURB
WRBGKiki ChordGBRW
WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW
BRGJundGRB
Legacy
UBRGrixis DelverRBU
Commander
Also meh
As for Draw go control decks,you are actually in a huge mistake, draw go decks were both unfun and relatively easy to play, because you could do anything in your opponent's turn, if they had a treat big enough, you kill it in their turn, if not, hold countermagic, if they didn't play anything, draw cards, that's not skillful playing, now you have to decide whether you want to tap out for removal or draw cards, or hold countermagic, they even were nice enough to give you removal wrath and counters that double as threats, even card draw, although that one is not as exciting.
The other point with draw go decks of old is, not only were they not that hard to beat if you knew what you were doing, they were boring to play and play against, the most common ways to win against them included as you might guess early pressure, then playing draw go until you either choke them on mana or had more cards than they did (the old 8 vs 7), that wasn't fun for either player. Yes, aggro decks are easier to pick up, but they are just as difficult to play correctly, and are very punishing for playing incorrectly, control decks have for the most part the same amount of decisions, they are just spread across more turns and are more forgiving of mistakes, in an aggro deck fetching the wrong land or missing on one or two points of damage early means you are gonna loose, and you need to do a lot of math if you want to properly play an aggro deck.
I don't care if the cards are weak but they are just boring. The art is generic and mostly bad. And everyone who defends this with bringing up Homelands; Not only are you bringing up a set which was made 15+ years ago, before they did masterpieces like Ravnica and TS, but Homelands was probably a better set then this anyway. I'd take Homelands over this generic crap any day.