Joraga treespeaker could come back, it's not necessarily 1 drop mana dork.
The removal of the mana dork allows a control deck to use their cancels to stop the 4 drop threats.
I didn't get to play back in the OG Zendikar block butaz far as I can see. Treespeaker actually looks better than an Elvish Mystic as a turn 1 drop. It essentially gets you up to 5 mana in your pool on turn 3. That said, I kinda want it to be in BFZ. Even though, with their stance on Llanowar-Mystics, I doubt wizards would reprint it here.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
I also think it will be interesting to see how powerful Whisperer of the Wilds is once we have to rely on it. Turn 3 Thunderbreak Regent or Siege Rhino at 4 CMC into turn 4 dragon / behemoth / massive sorcery at 6 CMC could be quite devastating. Thoughts?
Turn 4 See the Unwritten with the Ferocious trigger off a 4 power creature? Sounds like old school Zendikar green decks to me.
I also think it will be interesting to see how powerful Whisperer of the Wilds is once we have to rely on it. Turn 3 Thunderbreak Regent or Siege Rhino at 4 CMC into turn 4 dragon / behemoth / massive sorcery at 6 CMC could be quite devastating. Thoughts?
Turn 4 See the Unwritten with the Ferocious trigger off a 4 power creature? Sounds like old school Zendikar green decks to me.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
They certainly have pushed the 4+ mana cards in the Tarkir block, it feels like they are trying to soften Inquisition of Kozilek and Abrupt Decay in Modern. Those cards are not as good as they used to be with Tasigur, Angler and Rhino running around. Changing ramp from 1->3 to 2->4 fits that scheme perfectly.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
The idea is not just to ramp into a 4-drop on turn 3, but then to use the Whisperer's ferocious ability to ramp into a 6 drop on turn 4. You can use the Mystic as a morph to get to 6 mana on turn 4 as well, but it's a one shot mana bump and doesn't give you any pressure early. I like the redundancy, though. Along these lines, Oblivion Sower could be an interesting 6 drop in such a "mega ramp" deck.
I assumed both would be played in the green ramp decks that want more than four mana producing 2 drop creatures. Plus the Siege Rhino decks won't care about the Temur color production.
I think there's a green dude that makes black, right? Guess he can ramp you into Erebos's Titan (since we're talking about power 4-drops)
Honored Hierarch does in theory. Praxis, however, is "Play on turn 1, if you're not blocked on turn 2 or removed by turn 3, you go from 3 to 4 on turn 3." and "Why didn't they just reprint Sylvan Caryatid or even Utopia Tree?"
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think there's a green dude that makes black, right? Guess he can ramp you into Erebos's Titan (since we're talking about power 4-drops)
Honored Hierarch does in theory. Praxis, however, is "Play on turn 1, if you're not blocked on turn 2 or removed by turn 3, you go from 3 to 4 on turn 3." and "Why didn't they just reprint Sylvan Caryatid or even Utopia Tree?"
They stopped printing "add a mana of any color to your mana pool" ramp in green since M13 I think because "Green's color identity should not be producing mana or mana fixing".
Even though this was the thematic for over 20 years...
And Honored Hierarch is bad. If you are on the draw, it will probably not add mana. If they land a blocker or removal, it will not add mana. If you draw it late game, it is a 1/1 for 1 vanilla.
@Silver_Spellthief Regarding Joraga Treespeaker i havent finished reading yet but, if anyone else hasnt mentioned yet, being that i did play elves during zendikar we ran arbor/llanowar over him because essentially you invest 3 mana and 2 turns into him and then he gets bolted and that sucks hard.
@Silver_Spellthief Regarding Joraga Treespeaker i havent finished reading yet but, if anyone else hasnt mentioned yet, being that i did play elves during zendikar we ran arbor/llanowar over him because essentially you invest 3 mana and 2 turns into him and then he gets bolted and that sucks hard.
Oh... Yeah I didn't think of that. That could be a problem.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
Development has been changing a lot of the things I enjoy lately. I can't remember a scenario where I thought a turn 1 mana producer was too good, especially in standard.
I'm sure we will see a few 4 drop threats in Zendikar.
@Silver_Spellthief Regarding Joraga Treespeaker i havent finished reading yet but, if anyone else hasnt mentioned yet, being that i did play elves during zendikar we ran arbor/llanowar over him because essentially you invest 3 mana and 2 turns into him and then he gets bolted and that sucks hard.
OTOH he doesn't get burned and you end up way ahead with 2-more mana to spend on turn 2 then 5 on turn 3 (or more if you used the extra 2 mana to play another ramp effect). That is really strong ramp coming from a single card. More raw power than anything we've seen in Standard for a while.
I think there's a green dude that makes black, right? Guess he can ramp you into Erebos's Titan (since we're talking about power 4-drops)
Honored Hierarch does in theory. Praxis, however, is "Play on turn 1, if you're not blocked on turn 2 or removed by turn 3, you go from 3 to 4 on turn 3." and "Why didn't they just reprint Sylvan Caryatid or even Utopia Tree?"
They stopped printing "add a mana of any color to your mana pool" ramp in green since M13 I think because "Green's color identity should not be producing mana or mana fixing".
Even though this was the thematic for over 20 years...
Yeah, that blows my mind. Source? Green has always been the color that you use as a base for multicolor madness. Look at BoP, Utopia Sprawl, Joiner Adept, all the basic stuff like Cultivate. It was even like that in RTR standard with Farseek decks. Sylvan Caryatid is even in standard still. How they could claim otherwise, or attempt to turn it around, is beyond me.
And "green should not be producing mana" in general? Getting extra mana to ramp into big creatures is the first thing that comes to mind if you ask me to define green.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
I think there's a green dude that makes black, right? Guess he can ramp you into Erebos's Titan (since we're talking about power 4-drops)
Honored Hierarch does in theory. Praxis, however, is "Play on turn 1, if you're not blocked on turn 2 or removed by turn 3, you go from 3 to 4 on turn 3." and "Why didn't they just reprint Sylvan Caryatid or even Utopia Tree?"
They stopped printing "add a mana of any color to your mana pool" ramp in green since M13 I think because "Green's color identity should not be producing mana or mana fixing".
What is green's color identity then? Probably Plummets or something equally worthless.
Can I have a link to Maro giving this particular gem?
And Honored Hierarch is bad. If you are on the draw, it will probably not add mana. If they land a blocker or removal, it will not add mana. If you draw it late game, it is a 1/1 for 1 vanilla.
Hence why I said 'in theory'.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think there's a green dude that makes black, right? Guess he can ramp you into Erebos's Titan (since we're talking about power 4-drops)
Honored Hierarch does in theory. Praxis, however, is "Play on turn 1, if you're not blocked on turn 2 or removed by turn 3, you go from 3 to 4 on turn 3." and "Why didn't they just reprint Sylvan Caryatid or even Utopia Tree?"
They stopped printing "add a mana of any color to your mana pool" ramp in green since M13 I think because "Green's color identity should not be producing mana or mana fixing".
What is green's color identity then? Probably Plummets or something equally worthless.
Can I have a link to Maro giving this particular gem?
And Honored Hierarch is bad. If you are on the draw, it will probably not add mana. If they land a blocker or removal, it will not add mana. If you draw it late game, it is a 1/1 for 1 vanilla.
Hence why I said 'in theory'.
Don't get me wrong. I disagree with the current progressive mantra that it is not the color identity (it is and has been for 20 years).
I don't have the links to MaRo's garbage, but it was essentially a response to people complaining about Birds of Paradise not being reprinted in the core set (i think it was M13 which was a while ago).
Siege Rhino is really so good. IMHO, he easily trumps Loxodon Hierarch, yet hasn't had a great standard-build to provide a working synergy that he'd really shine in, much less fully exploit him.
As much as I'd like to see Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise back in standard, I tend to agree that those are a little overpowered, honestly.
I keep hearing about how they weren't in the past, and that standard did fine with them. That's partially true, however, if you ever had to deal with BoP with a Sword of Feast and Famine attached and attacking before you even got to your turn 3, you might say otherwise. Doran The Siege Tower comes to mind, too. It wasn't broken, but it was a little too good.
The other thing here is that creature quality has been on a steady incline for a while now. Comparing BoP's value in Standard now compared to a long time ago requires some consideration.
As for where BFZ will take us, I'm betting on a homage to Lotus Cobra.
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The removal of the mana dork allows a control deck to use their cancels to stop the 4 drop threats.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Surrak, the Hunt-Caller (although it's probably better a turn later)
Collected Company (although it would be worse in a ramp deck than a straight beatdown deck)
Ojutai's Exemplars (if there's a Rampant Growth effect and a playable aggressive Awaken card or 2?)
Archangel of Tithes (although your 2-mana ramp spell here is probably Knight of the White Orchid, which really ramps you to 5 for Wingmate Roc on the draw)
Ashcloud Phoenix (if you need extra 4 drops in RG Ramp and/or tap-out control is a thing)
Anyone else?
I didn't get to play back in the OG Zendikar block butaz far as I can see. Treespeaker actually looks better than an Elvish Mystic as a turn 1 drop. It essentially gets you up to 5 mana in your pool on turn 3. That said, I kinda want it to be in BFZ. Even though, with their stance on Llanowar-Mystics, I doubt wizards would reprint it here.
-Chandra Nalaar
Turn 4 See the Unwritten with the Ferocious trigger off a 4 power creature? Sounds like old school Zendikar green decks to me.
Why rely on Whisperer when Rattleclaw Mystic exists?
- Manite
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
The idea is not just to ramp into a 4-drop on turn 3, but then to use the Whisperer's ferocious ability to ramp into a 6 drop on turn 4. You can use the Mystic as a morph to get to 6 mana on turn 4 as well, but it's a one shot mana bump and doesn't give you any pressure early. I like the redundancy, though. Along these lines, Oblivion Sower could be an interesting 6 drop in such a "mega ramp" deck.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsI assumed both would be played in the green ramp decks that want more than four mana producing 2 drop creatures. Plus the Siege Rhino decks won't care about the Temur color production.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsHonored Hierarch does in theory. Praxis, however, is "Play on turn 1, if you're not blocked on turn 2 or removed by turn 3, you go from 3 to 4 on turn 3." and "Why didn't they just reprint Sylvan Caryatid or even Utopia Tree?"
On phasing:
If I remember correctly, Joraga no longer exists which makes that impossible.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
They stopped printing "add a mana of any color to your mana pool" ramp in green since M13 I think because "Green's color identity should not be producing mana or mana fixing".
Even though this was the thematic for over 20 years...
And Honored Hierarch is bad. If you are on the draw, it will probably not add mana. If they land a blocker or removal, it will not add mana. If you draw it late game, it is a 1/1 for 1 vanilla.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
GBW~Modern Elves~GBW
3x Dwynen's elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1x Mirror Entity
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Spellskite
4x Cavern of Souls
9x Forest
4x Razorverge Thicket
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
(Spells 8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Kataki, War's Wage
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Spellskite
2x Rest in Peace
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Lead the Stampede
2x dismember
Oh... Yeah I didn't think of that. That could be a problem.
-Chandra Nalaar
I'm sure we will see a few 4 drop threats in Zendikar.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
OTOH he doesn't get burned and you end up way ahead with 2-more mana to spend on turn 2 then 5 on turn 3 (or more if you used the extra 2 mana to play another ramp effect). That is really strong ramp coming from a single card. More raw power than anything we've seen in Standard for a while.
And "green should not be producing mana" in general? Getting extra mana to ramp into big creatures is the first thing that comes to mind if you ask me to define green.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
What is green's color identity then? Probably Plummets or something equally worthless.
Can I have a link to Maro giving this particular gem?
Hence why I said 'in theory'.
On phasing:
Don't get me wrong. I disagree with the current progressive mantra that it is not the color identity (it is and has been for 20 years).
I don't have the links to MaRo's garbage, but it was essentially a response to people complaining about Birds of Paradise not being reprinted in the core set (i think it was M13 which was a while ago).
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
I keep hearing about how they weren't in the past, and that standard did fine with them. That's partially true, however, if you ever had to deal with BoP with a Sword of Feast and Famine attached and attacking before you even got to your turn 3, you might say otherwise. Doran The Siege Tower comes to mind, too. It wasn't broken, but it was a little too good.
The other thing here is that creature quality has been on a steady incline for a while now. Comparing BoP's value in Standard now compared to a long time ago requires some consideration.
As for where BFZ will take us, I'm betting on a homage to Lotus Cobra.