Mill: Goes to Graveyard, can be recurred.
Destroy: Goes to Graveyard, can be recurred.
Exile: Goes to Exile, can NOT be recurred.
Manifest: Becomes a creature, IS essentially exiled until the creature dies.
It's not about exiling a Goyf and manifesting a Goyf. It's about Exiling a Goyf and blanking Abrupt Decay.
Half of that is non sequitur to my point though. Recursion is a minor point, Mind Sculpt would not suddenly be broken if it exiled instead. And what does Abrupt Decay have do with anything? The point is that turning a random card in your library into a 2/2 creature is random. The fact that could be a Colonnade or something is irrelevant because it could more likely not be that. Statistics. There are plenty of times where it'll actually be a 2/2 that magically also turns into a Rhino later in the game. Which is significantly worse.
The exact same argument that you use is used with things like mill or Gnomish Experimenter in Hearthstone, even though it makes no sense from a statistical point of view.
A rhino that no longer Lightning Helixes, but you're opponent still payed full price for.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
It's arguably weaker than Rapid Hybridization, it's been part of blue's colour pie since Mirage, "static" polymorphs exile, because otherwise you'd have silly memory issues or be forced to use Auras which are far wordier, especially for instant speed ones.
And what's the problem of static polymorphing be featured on auras?
"Flash
Enchanted creature is now a 2/2 creature with no abilities or name."
If preferred to function that way include: "Remove all counters from the creature and unattach all equipment and other auras".
Is that really so worded that you cannot have that instead of
"Exile target creature. Its controller put a 2/2 creature token onto the battlefield under their control."
And if earlier preference to remove all other external alterations to the creature, at least make the same status quo here: "this doesn't cause enter the battlefield abilities to trigger".
- Before anyone refers back to Reality Shift, no I'm using a completely different non-existent card to make an example of a static/pre-fixed polymorph-effect.
Blue has been morphing stuff since the beginning. Phantasmal Terrain, Magical Hack and Slight of Mind all frustrated opponents during magics earliest days. Turning great big monsters into blue frogs or little pigs seems like child's play.
I don't see how this is any different than Curse of the Swine. It exiles the creature and replaces it with a 2/2. In fact, it's a little weaker, because sometimes that 2/2 would be able to turn into a real threat.
So you're saying that this card is broken because it sometimes "takes away" a card?
Manifest Density 1U
Instant
Exile target creature and the top card of its controller's library. That player puts a 2/2 colorless token onto the battlefield.
Basically.
Exile a Goyf or a Siege Rhino, and what else other than the (Very slim chance of getting) other goyfs/rhinos is there? Pretty much any other card is blanked.
They are all random! Would you say that Glimpse the Unthinkable is broken because it removes 6-7 cards that your opponent might have wanted? And before you start talking about how it doesn't exile, if Glimpse the Unthinkable exiled 10 cards would it be broken?
But odds are there's less than a 40% chance at least that it's a card they can use.
Just pulling up a random decklist for Abzan Midrange, they have 14 creatures in a 60 card deck. Roughly, that's about a 25% chance that i's something they can use. The other 45% of the time it's something they can't.
Regardless, it's blue hard removal at instant speed, with an upside for sure, but it's a variable upside.
The worst part about this card is that it's a potential 2-for-1 unconditional exile removal spell in BLUE. First treasure cruise, now this. What will blue get next?
This argument is frustrating. MaRo has already stated that he dislikes polymorph effects that do not exile the card as it totally makes no sense flavor-wise. Imagine polymorphing a card only to return it WITH the new polymorphed token/manifested card. That makes no sense as the new token/manifested card is SUPPOSE TO BE the original card, just changed.
Is this apart of blues color pie?Yes. Always has been. This is nothing new. Is this an overpowered effect?Exiling a creature gets around a lot of issues, such as indestructible. You run the risk of giving them a better/similar threat while losing an answer from your deck BUT you have the upside of dealing with a threat temporarily and the decent chance it will turn out to be a dud, thus having only a 2/2 vanilla to worry about.
I keep reading about 'delver this' and 'delver that'. Delver was a mistake. They made a crazy powerful creature without ever realizing it (until it was way to late). Sometimes mistakes happen, for example; this 'debate'. As for true-name nemesis; it was only in commander. Commander products have already shown that they are willing to severely bend the color pie. Look at Song of the Dryads. Oh wait, thats a green example of color violation, let me give you a blue example: Chaos Warp. Blue is probably the most powerful color given magics 21 years of history, but then if you are comparing Time Walk to Formless Nurturing, you are not having a meaningful debate. In todays world, blue is a strong color, but not the strongest.
I wouldn't be surprised if this card sees little to no play in modern or standard. Still, good card and very strong EDH removal, where manifesting their eldrazi might not win them the game.
EDIT: This cards most powerful ability might lie in the fact that you can use it on your own creature. With the scry lands and perhaps other top-deck manipulation that may come in Dragons of Tarkir, or modern, this may be an effective way to keep creatures on the field and combo with low-costing creatures while using up an enemies answer. This may be the blue version of Life's Legacy and similar effects. (Note (IB4 Rage); similar effects like life's legacy have been done at instant speed)
Polymorph is part of blue's color pie, right? Regardless of how it's executed, the act of changing something into something else temporarily or permanently is very much part of blue's slice of the wheel.
What other method do you suggest besides exile/replace to accomplish this? This doesn't work as an enchantment, because the idea is that the spell is cast directly at the creature. Instants/Sorceries cannot create a permanent board state (being that they aren't permanents).
Our only choices are sending the card to exile or the GY. Killing a creature doesn't fit blue, at all, not even a little bit, so that's a blank. That leaves us with exile, which, while a bit clunky is the best option available for this effect.
Card is especially good in this current Standard format. Great against Courser decks when you know the top card of their deck is either not a creature, or a creature with an ETB effect like Siege Rhino/Hornet Queen. Also pretty good when your opponent has missed a land drop and just scried to the top of their library.
@.Rai I don't really see how Tzefick's proposed flash enchant is inelegant. In fact to me it seems like both a simplicity and flavor success. You remove a step from the equation (Exile creature, Manifest vs. Transform creature) while making blue's removal contingent and an actual polymorph effect in practice as well as flavor. You got cursed and became a frog? Good thing i know how to disenchant things like that. It doesn't even seem to cost many lines of text, and the actual card text on manifest is comparably more lengthy even when it shortcuts the morph rules, which it also relies upon. This mechanic seems very interesting and interactive but not at all simple or elegant, at least to my eyes. From a design perspective, why would Reality Shift be considered more elegant than a simple cmc 2 flash version of something like Darksteel Mutation or Tzefick's card?
That said this card is far from broken for all the reasons expounded upon so far in the thread and I agree that perhaps the most powerful mode of the card is probably self-targeting if you can manipulate and abuse. U(w?) manifest flicker shenanigans? Apart from that its a slower Hybridization that might give you're opponent a threat they didn't even have to spend the turn drawing.
Bounce, tap effects and top-of-library cards are exactly how blue should be dealing with creatures that resolve. It isn't supposed to get hard removal any more than black is supposed to get enchantment removal.
I believe you're mentally equating blue 'hard' removal with black hard removal. Which is simply incorrect.
No, I'm equating permanently exiling a creature with hard removal. Your reading of my post is way off-base.
But exiling a creature and giving back a token is within blue's color pie, why it is so hard to understand / accept this ?
Blue is probably one of the weakest colors in Standard right now. Are people complaining because they think that control could be a thing again with this card? Control always needs to be a thing in Standard to keep midrange decks in check. Control is currently the weakest it has been in years, and, guess what: midrange decks are running wild.
This is a great card for blue and I would be surprised if it didn't regularly pop up in blue decks after FRF release. Yes, you risk manifesting one of your opponent's creatures, but it's the best thing in the world if it's a Hornet Queen. Unless they can cast it that same turn, there are no hornet tokens, and your opponent just paid seven mana to give a 2/2 creature flying and deathtouch. I'd consider that 100% value.
Unless they can cast it that same turn, there are no hornet tokens, and your opponent just paid seven mana to give a 2/2 creature flying and deathtouch. I'd consider that 100% value.
Just to clarify, there is no point at which a player can flip the Manifested card and get ETB effects. The earliest someone can flip the card is after the creature is already in play.
As mentioned by many others in the thread, blue has a ton of cards that already create this effect. I suspect this one might not be as good in standard as elsewhere. With all the creature decks running around, you're going to be boarding it out against just about any deck playing green, so you're not turning their siege rhinos into morphed wingmate rocs and coursers of kruphix or turning their ashcloud phoneixes into morphed polukranos.
Except if it's any ETB trigger then it's been nullified since it's already in play. No Lightning Helix will be attached to that Rhino if it's been Manifest with Reality Shift.
No, I'm equating permanently exiling a creature with hard removal. Your reading of my post is way off-base.
But exiling a creature and giving back a token is within blue's color pie, why it is so hard to understand / accept this ?
Polymorph as a whole is in blue's colour pie, but exiling is only one possible way to implement that and has only recently become WotC's chosen approach. It really shouldn't be hard for you to understand the potential problems here, but to clarify: it's a mechanical issue. A big part of blue's colour identity is being bad at permanently dealing with creatures, and hence giving it easy exiling is a potential problem, even if it comes with a minor drawback. Flavour explanations and previous examples can be found to justify most cards in almost any colour, but it's a concern when a card risks removing one of a colour's core weaknesses.
And I would call it inelegance to remove a specific creature entirely from my deck because you're altering it into another of my cards.
You spoke about random and statistics before; then you know there's a slim chance/risk that those Chaos Warp-effects are neutered.
My problem is not with the polymorphing but with the exile.
And yes... if all mill-effects had been exile I reckon it could be a possible viable fringe archetype - kinda like it was once with Jace, Memory Adept in standard - that was control with inevitability to make you lose. The main problem for the archetype is that it does not interact with the board and there's a couple of no-brainer counter-cards like the legendary Eldrazi and Elixir of Immortality.
Another problem is the relative "killing-rate" compared to permanents or spells is relatively slow - so you basically have to play tempo-disruptions/control to have a chance -> which again burns your mana and stops your "damage" on your opponent.
The issue from Wizard's and the health of the format's side is that there are few natural interactions with milling-strategies, so the archetype cannot become too powerful. So far the best milling-effects we have is Glimpse the Unthinkable or a lucky Mind Funeral.
To translate that into damage (played ASAP, on the draw, no mulligans, no additional card draws):
Glimpse: 3.9 ~ 4 damage.
Mind Funeral (roughly every third card is a land, so 12 cards milled): 4.8 ~ 5 damage.
Mind Sculpt: 2.7 ~ 3 damage.
I assume you mean cards spoiled in FRF? Because Temur in standard certainly have a dozen cards running around in standard atm.
As it stands I think there might be potential for the new mana dork and Whisperwood Elemental (5 cmc 4/4 and a 2/2, that's 6/6 power/toughness that essentially has a chance to "draw" you a card/creature each turn). Shaman of the Great Hunt seems plausible for testing as well. Flamewake Phoenix might not be strong enough but it certainly deserves some testing.
I cannot believe you've already discounted them all as useless.
The worst part about this card is that it's a potential 2-for-1 unconditional exile removal spell in BLUE. First treasure cruise, now this. What will blue get next?
In what universe is this a 2-for-1? I'm honestly wondering because this seems to be the major misconception about this card. If anything, it is less than a 1-for-1 in terms of pure card advantage. Now, the tempo advantages of replacing a major threat with a 2/2 cannot be understated but claiming that this card provides any sort of card advantage is just plain untrue.
A rhino that no longer Lightning Helixes, but you're opponent still payed full price for.
There is no power level problem.
I don't see what the fuzz is about.
"Flash
Enchanted creature is now a 2/2 creature with no abilities or name."
If preferred to function that way include: "Remove all counters from the creature and unattach all equipment and other auras".
Is that really so worded that you cannot have that instead of
"Exile target creature. Its controller put a 2/2 creature token onto the battlefield under their control."
And if earlier preference to remove all other external alterations to the creature, at least make the same status quo here: "this doesn't cause enter the battlefield abilities to trigger".
- Before anyone refers back to Reality Shift, no I'm using a completely different non-existent card to make an example of a static/pre-fixed polymorph-effect.
The cards on top of their deck are random. You aren't ruining their deck.
They are all random! Would you say that Glimpse the Unthinkable is broken because it removes 6-7 cards that your opponent might have wanted? And before you start talking about how it doesn't exile, if Glimpse the Unthinkable exiled 10 cards would it be broken?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Just pulling up a random decklist for Abzan Midrange, they have 14 creatures in a 60 card deck. Roughly, that's about a 25% chance that i's something they can use. The other 45% of the time it's something they can't.
Regardless, it's blue hard removal at instant speed, with an upside for sure, but it's a variable upside.
Is this apart of blues color pie? Yes. Always has been. This is nothing new.
Is this an overpowered effect? Exiling a creature gets around a lot of issues, such as indestructible. You run the risk of giving them a better/similar threat while losing an answer from your deck BUT you have the upside of dealing with a threat temporarily and the decent chance it will turn out to be a dud, thus having only a 2/2 vanilla to worry about.
I keep reading about 'delver this' and 'delver that'. Delver was a mistake. They made a crazy powerful creature without ever realizing it (until it was way to late). Sometimes mistakes happen, for example; this 'debate'. As for true-name nemesis; it was only in commander. Commander products have already shown that they are willing to severely bend the color pie. Look at Song of the Dryads. Oh wait, thats a green example of color violation, let me give you a blue example: Chaos Warp. Blue is probably the most powerful color given magics 21 years of history, but then if you are comparing Time Walk to Formless Nurturing, you are not having a meaningful debate. In todays world, blue is a strong color, but not the strongest.
I wouldn't be surprised if this card sees little to no play in modern or standard. Still, good card and very strong EDH removal, where manifesting their eldrazi might not win them the game.
EDIT: This cards most powerful ability might lie in the fact that you can use it on your own creature. With the scry lands and perhaps other top-deck manipulation that may come in Dragons of Tarkir, or modern, this may be an effective way to keep creatures on the field and combo with low-costing creatures while using up an enemies answer. This may be the blue version of Life's Legacy and similar effects. (Note (IB4 Rage); similar effects like life's legacy have been done at instant speed)
What other method do you suggest besides exile/replace to accomplish this? This doesn't work as an enchantment, because the idea is that the spell is cast directly at the creature. Instants/Sorceries cannot create a permanent board state (being that they aren't permanents).
Our only choices are sending the card to exile or the GY. Killing a creature doesn't fit blue, at all, not even a little bit, so that's a blank. That leaves us with exile, which, while a bit clunky is the best option available for this effect.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
That said this card is far from broken for all the reasons expounded upon so far in the thread and I agree that perhaps the most powerful mode of the card is probably self-targeting if you can manipulate and abuse. U(w?) manifest flicker shenanigans? Apart from that its a slower Hybridization that might give you're opponent a threat they didn't even have to spend the turn drawing.
Temporal Isolation template plus Lignify-esque wording would be instant polymorph without exile.
But exiling a creature and giving back a token is within blue's color pie, why it is so hard to understand / accept this ?
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
This is a great card for blue and I would be surprised if it didn't regularly pop up in blue decks after FRF release. Yes, you risk manifesting one of your opponent's creatures, but it's the best thing in the world if it's a Hornet Queen. Unless they can cast it that same turn, there are no hornet tokens, and your opponent just paid seven mana to give a 2/2 creature flying and deathtouch. I'd consider that 100% value.
Just to clarify, there is no point at which a player can flip the Manifested card and get ETB effects. The earliest someone can flip the card is after the creature is already in play.
Polymorph as a whole is in blue's colour pie, but exiling is only one possible way to implement that and has only recently become WotC's chosen approach. It really shouldn't be hard for you to understand the potential problems here, but to clarify: it's a mechanical issue. A big part of blue's colour identity is being bad at permanently dealing with creatures, and hence giving it easy exiling is a potential problem, even if it comes with a minor drawback. Flavour explanations and previous examples can be found to justify most cards in almost any colour, but it's a concern when a card risks removing one of a colour's core weaknesses.
You spoke about random and statistics before; then you know there's a slim chance/risk that those Chaos Warp-effects are neutered.
My problem is not with the polymorphing but with the exile.
And yes... if all mill-effects had been exile I reckon it could be a possible viable fringe archetype - kinda like it was once with Jace, Memory Adept in standard - that was control with inevitability to make you lose. The main problem for the archetype is that it does not interact with the board and there's a couple of no-brainer counter-cards like the legendary Eldrazi and Elixir of Immortality.
Another problem is the relative "killing-rate" compared to permanents or spells is relatively slow - so you basically have to play tempo-disruptions/control to have a chance -> which again burns your mana and stops your "damage" on your opponent.
The issue from Wizard's and the health of the format's side is that there are few natural interactions with milling-strategies, so the archetype cannot become too powerful. So far the best milling-effects we have is Glimpse the Unthinkable or a lucky Mind Funeral.
To translate that into damage (played ASAP, on the draw, no mulligans, no additional card draws):
Glimpse: 3.9 ~ 4 damage.
Mind Funeral (roughly every third card is a land, so 12 cards milled): 4.8 ~ 5 damage.
Mind Sculpt: 2.7 ~ 3 damage.
As it stands I think there might be potential for the new mana dork and Whisperwood Elemental (5 cmc 4/4 and a 2/2, that's 6/6 power/toughness that essentially has a chance to "draw" you a card/creature each turn). Shaman of the Great Hunt seems plausible for testing as well.
Flamewake Phoenix might not be strong enough but it certainly deserves some testing.
I cannot believe you've already discounted them all as useless.