Something that I've immediately noticed after the recent previews for Fate Reforged are the number of cards that can potentially have some serious memory issues.
The first of which is the Manifest mechanic. If you don't know, manifest allows you to take the top card of your library and play it face-down as a "manifest" card, which is essentially a morph creature. The difference is that ANY card can be manifested, not just creatures with morph; in addition, if the manifested card is a creature, you can turn it face up for its converted mana cost at any time.
The problem with this is that it can greatly interfere with morph cards. Wizards seems to assume that everyone uses the morph tokens that you place on a card, so they also believe that people will have the manifest tokens as well to differentiate between them. This is just not the case. If a player plays both morphs and manifests, it can be very easy for a deceptive player to play anything they want as a morph and just claim it was a manifest later. When the game ends and it's time to reveal face-down cards, how can players verify that a land or spell played as a morph was actually a manifest, and not a cheat by the other player? This can also be used to use different ways to turn up a face-down card. If you manifest a card with morph, how can you know if the card was a morph or manifest when it's time to pay the cost to flip it?
The second issue was Soulflayer. Although I can think of a way to keep track of what abilities it has (put the cards exiled under it for easy reference), that can also create problems with knowing what cards are in play and which are used just as an indicator. I see no easy way to keep track of what abilities the card may have, and it's especially hard for an opponent to remember when it comes time to attack or block.
I've repeatedly seen Wizards articles mention the importance of memory issues in their sets, so I don't know what they were thinking by including these cards that are so ripe for exactly that problem.
Wizards clearly doesn't intend for the Morph/Manifest shell game to be a thing in gameplay, so simply insist that your opponent clearly mark the cards played via each mechanic. Pennies for one, Nickels for the other; red vs blue counters, left vs right side of the field, even die vs odd die numbers, whatever. If your opponent is being evasive or shady or refusing to mark them, call a judge. If your friend is being evasive or shady with them, get new friends :p.
Soulflayer is a little trickier but it is also rare. Personally I've never had trouble sticking stuff under Duplicant and Banishing Light and then thinking that that stuff was on the battlefield later, but four cards is a lot. If you or your opponents tend to have messy, cluttered battlefields, consider sticky notes.
Overall, I don't see any more issue here than there was with miracle in terms of people playing cheaty-face. Just don't be afraid to hammer the judge button early on, and the problem should self-correct as people learn to be clear with the cards.
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I understand your point and it's gonna be an issue that you'll have to promptly make certain what your opponent does so you can differentiate two piles. Alternatively you can have some counters or pieces of paper to tell them apart.
However this is not so different than having multiple cards that exiles face-down and keeping track of which pile belongs to which card. So far we mostly have spells that does Manifest - which means you can use them as cover in worst case.
One possible solution would be to play unmanifested, face-down creatures in one orientation (perhaps right-side up), and to play manifested ones in another orientation (perhaps upside-down). This, of course, assumes unsleeved or transparent-sleeved cards.
Since most people tap all their permanents in the same direction (assuming clockwise here), then when unmanifested face-down permanents are tapped, the "Magic" logo would be on the right, and when manifeted face-down permanents are tapped, the "Magic" logo would be on the left.
Obviously, if you have opaque-sleeved cards, then this solution doesn't work.
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I'm confident that some time in the next year, a person will be caught on camera slipping a face-down spell from the battlefield into their hand, and replacing it with a creature or land.
Hey, people have been caught switching cards in Draft to pick up two cards from a fresh booster - he got away with the switch but it was not so bright to take out a rare and an uncommon and replace with a common. Kinda easy to pin-point him as the only one to have taken from the pack.
Some will go through cheating to achieve more for themselves.
Don't forget Outpost Siege, another card that you have to keep track of, especially in multiples.
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With the Manifest tokens I am pretty sure that it will be easy to tell the difference between that and normal Morph, especially if Manifest tokens are as numerous as Morph tokens. In limited with the tokens being a little more scarce you can make sure that the face down cards are on different sides or just write it down on a piece of paper.
Don't forget Outpost Siege, another card that you have to keep track of, especially in multiples.
Can't be any harder than Archangel of Strife. For Outpost Siege I would put a die on it and mark a one or a two, for which choice I have made, which is the system I use for the Archangel.
With the Manifest tokens I am pretty sure that it will be easy to tell the difference between that and normal Morph, especially if Manifest tokens are as numerous as Morph tokens. In limited with the tokens being a little more scarce you can make sure that the face down cards are on different sides or just write it down on a piece of paper.
Don't forget Outpost Siege, another card that you have to keep track of, especially in multiples.
Can't be any harder than Archangel of Strife. For Outpost Siege I would put a die on it and mark a one or a two, for which choice I have made, which is the system I use for the Archangel.
The thing is, the vast majority of players I know (and enjoy playing with) don't come prepared with all sorts of supplies - just $13, sometimes some sleeves, and a six-pack of cold ones. Play mistakes happen and we are the crew that looks at that Morph creature 30 times before flipping it because of constantly forgetting what's there or what the morph cost is... and now there are two different things that look the same. There will be errors.
I personally like the new mechanics and think that they will be interesting from an in-play standpoint. From the standpoint of memory issues and complexity of board organization - i fear it may be a bit tedious. It reminds me of double-faced cards - interesting effects ON play, tedious TO play.
The pendulum is swinging towards a little more complexity this time, it'll swing back later...
With the Manifest tokens I am pretty sure that it will be easy to tell the difference between that and normal Morph, especially if Manifest tokens are as numerous as Morph tokens. In limited with the tokens being a little more scarce you can make sure that the face down cards are on different sides or just write it down on a piece of paper.
Don't forget Outpost Siege, another card that you have to keep track of, especially in multiples.
Can't be any harder than Archangel of Strife. For Outpost Siege I would put a die on it and mark a one or a two, for which choice I have made, which is the system I use for the Archangel.
The thing is, the vast majority of players I know (and enjoy playing with) don't come prepared with all sorts of supplies - just $13, sometimes some sleeves, and a six-pack of cold ones. Play mistakes happen and we are the crew that looks at that Morph creature 30 times before flipping it because of constantly forgetting what's there or what the morph cost is... and now there are two different things that look the same. There will be errors.
I personally like the new mechanics and think that they will be interesting from an in-play standpoint. From the standpoint of memory issues and complexity of board organization - i fear it may be a bit tedious. It reminds me of double-faced cards - interesting effects ON play, tedious TO play.
The pendulum is swinging towards a little more complexity this time, it'll swing back later...
In limited that is certainly true, as many will not have enough Manifest tokens to cover all of their manifest creatures. I figure folks will need 2-4 tokens on average, but with you receiving Morph tokens as well you should be able to cover any problems, for the most part. I don't doubt there will be headaches though, that is for sure.
In constructed play though, you and/or your opponent should have those tokens. I easily have 30 Morph tokens from around 3 boxes worth of Khans.
This issue pales compared to morph itself. There was various situations were my opponent have played morphed creatures across different turns and I have lost track of which one was played in which turn. I can always ask "which one you played last turn?" but that's a great way you screw yourself up by giving the opponent a easy opportunity to deceive you into playing removal in the wrong creature.
As a person who puts a single morph down on the table turn 3 and immediately forgets which creature it is the second my hand stops touching the card--I can't wait for FrF's manifest.
This can also be used to use different ways to turn up a face-down card. If you manifest a card with morph, how can you know if the card was a morph or manifest when it's time to pay the cost to flip it?
At the very least, this is not an issue. A face-down creature does not need to have been played as a morph to be flipped face up for it's morph cost.
This issue pales compared to morph itself. There was various situations were my opponent have played morphed creatures across different turns and I have lost track of which one was played in which turn. I can always ask "which one you played last turn?" but that's a great way you screw yourself up by giving the opponent a easy opportunity to deceive you into playing removal in the wrong creature.
Players are required to maintain the game state, and that includes keeping track of the order in which morphs were played. If your opponent is lying to you, they are cheating, and you should call a judge.
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This can also be used to use different ways to turn up a face-down card. If you manifest a card with morph, how can you know if the card was a morph or manifest when it's time to pay the cost to flip it?
At the very least, this is not an issue. A face-down creature does not need to have been played as a morph to be flipped face up for it's morph cost.
It becomes relevant because the morph cost is different from the cost to manifest. If a player loses track of whether a card with a morph cost was manifested or not, they won't know what they can pay.
if you dont want to or cant use counters or tokens, I would sugest to differentiate morph and manifest by inverting (manifests) in their y axis (180 turn)
I can't think of anything easier, and more intuitive than that...
It becomes relevant because the morph cost is different from the cost to manifest. If a player loses track of whether a card with a morph cost was manifested or not, they won't know what they can pay.
There are plenty of ways to mark the difference, from the morph/manifest token cards, random unsleeved cards if you're using sleeves, coins or other tokens on just one type or the other, or the above suggested orientation tricks. I doubt that it will be a problem in practice.
I also wouldn't be surprised if shops started keeping a supply of morph/manifest token cards available just like they do basic lands for drafts.
This can also be used to use different ways to turn up a face-down card. If you manifest a card with morph, how can you know if the card was a morph or manifest when it's time to pay the cost to flip it?
At the very least, this is not an issue. A face-down creature does not need to have been played as a morph to be flipped face up for it's morph cost.
It becomes relevant because the morph cost is different from the cost to manifest. If a player loses track of whether a card with a morph cost was manifested or not, they won't know what they can pay.
Did you read what I said that you quoted? Because your response would indicate you didn't. Being played as a morph is not a requirement to being flipped face up for morph cost. Said another way, a manifested creature can be turned face up for its morph cost. Reminder text has no rules meaning; the only requirement to be able to pay a creature's morph cost is that it be face down, regardless of how it got that way. Vesuvan Shapeshifter would not work if this was not the case, and there's no way that Backslide would have been a common.
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This can also be used to use different ways to turn up a face-down card. If you manifest a card with morph, how can you know if the card was a morph or manifest when it's time to pay the cost to flip it?
At the very least, this is not an issue. A face-down creature does not need to have been played as a morph to be flipped face up for it's morph cost.
It becomes relevant because the morph cost is different from the cost to manifest. If a player loses track of whether a card with a morph cost was manifested or not, they won't know what they can pay.
Did you read what I said that you quoted? Because your response would indicate you didn't. Being played as a morph is not a requirement to being flipped face up for morph cost. Said another way, a manifested creature can be turned face up for its morph cost. Reminder text has no rules meaning; the only requirement to be able to pay a creature's morph cost is that it be face down, regardless of how it got that way. Vesuvan Shapeshifter would not work if this was not the case, and there's no way that Backslide would have been a common.
I think what he means is that a card that is cast as a morph can ONLY be flipped face-up by paying the morph cost. Whereas, if it's a morph that is manifested, it can be flipped face-up for either it's unmorph cost OR it's casting cost. So it can be relevant how a morph card gets onto the battlefield, although it's very very niche.
I think what he means is that a card that is cast as a morph can ONLY be flipped face-up by paying the morph cost. Whereas, if it's a morph that is manifested, it can be flipped face-up for either it's unmorph cost OR it's casting cost. So it can be relevant how a morph card gets onto the battlefield, although it's very very niche.
Hmm, I guess my brain just short-cutted all standard legal morphs as having a lower cost than the cmc... I just assumed he was talking about using morph for a manifested card, hadn't considered that one might try to pay the CMC of a card someone had morphed.
I can see why keeping track because of cards like Ashcloud Phoenix with a more expensive morph cost, and Dragon's Eye Savants that may be harder to meet might make things complicated. I guess you'll just have to bring enough supplies (tokens, beads, etc.) for yourself AND your opponent. Honestly, if the players are anything like the ones in my area, they'll probably help themselves to your supplies without asking, even if you DON'T bring enough to share. Now I'm less excited for the pre-release...
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The first of which is the Manifest mechanic. If you don't know, manifest allows you to take the top card of your library and play it face-down as a "manifest" card, which is essentially a morph creature. The difference is that ANY card can be manifested, not just creatures with morph; in addition, if the manifested card is a creature, you can turn it face up for its converted mana cost at any time.
The problem with this is that it can greatly interfere with morph cards. Wizards seems to assume that everyone uses the morph tokens that you place on a card, so they also believe that people will have the manifest tokens as well to differentiate between them. This is just not the case. If a player plays both morphs and manifests, it can be very easy for a deceptive player to play anything they want as a morph and just claim it was a manifest later. When the game ends and it's time to reveal face-down cards, how can players verify that a land or spell played as a morph was actually a manifest, and not a cheat by the other player? This can also be used to use different ways to turn up a face-down card. If you manifest a card with morph, how can you know if the card was a morph or manifest when it's time to pay the cost to flip it?
The second issue was Soulflayer. Although I can think of a way to keep track of what abilities it has (put the cards exiled under it for easy reference), that can also create problems with knowing what cards are in play and which are used just as an indicator. I see no easy way to keep track of what abilities the card may have, and it's especially hard for an opponent to remember when it comes time to attack or block.
I've repeatedly seen Wizards articles mention the importance of memory issues in their sets, so I don't know what they were thinking by including these cards that are so ripe for exactly that problem.
Soulflayer is a little trickier but it is also rare. Personally I've never had trouble sticking stuff under Duplicant and Banishing Light and then thinking that that stuff was on the battlefield later, but four cards is a lot. If you or your opponents tend to have messy, cluttered battlefields, consider sticky notes.
Overall, I don't see any more issue here than there was with miracle in terms of people playing cheaty-face. Just don't be afraid to hammer the judge button early on, and the problem should self-correct as people learn to be clear with the cards.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
However this is not so different than having multiple cards that exiles face-down and keeping track of which pile belongs to which card. So far we mostly have spells that does Manifest - which means you can use them as cover in worst case.
Since most people tap all their permanents in the same direction (assuming clockwise here), then when unmanifested face-down permanents are tapped, the "Magic" logo would be on the right, and when manifeted face-down permanents are tapped, the "Magic" logo would be on the left.
Obviously, if you have opaque-sleeved cards, then this solution doesn't work.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Some will go through cheating to achieve more for themselves.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Can't be any harder than Archangel of Strife. For Outpost Siege I would put a die on it and mark a one or a two, for which choice I have made, which is the system I use for the Archangel.
The thing is, the vast majority of players I know (and enjoy playing with) don't come prepared with all sorts of supplies - just $13, sometimes some sleeves, and a six-pack of cold ones. Play mistakes happen and we are the crew that looks at that Morph creature 30 times before flipping it because of constantly forgetting what's there or what the morph cost is... and now there are two different things that look the same. There will be errors.
I personally like the new mechanics and think that they will be interesting from an in-play standpoint. From the standpoint of memory issues and complexity of board organization - i fear it may be a bit tedious. It reminds me of double-faced cards - interesting effects ON play, tedious TO play.
The pendulum is swinging towards a little more complexity this time, it'll swing back later...
In limited that is certainly true, as many will not have enough Manifest tokens to cover all of their manifest creatures. I figure folks will need 2-4 tokens on average, but with you receiving Morph tokens as well you should be able to cover any problems, for the most part. I don't doubt there will be headaches though, that is for sure.
In constructed play though, you and/or your opponent should have those tokens. I easily have 30 Morph tokens from around 3 boxes worth of Khans.
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At the very least, this is not an issue. A face-down creature does not need to have been played as a morph to be flipped face up for it's morph cost.
Players are required to maintain the game state, and that includes keeping track of the order in which morphs were played. If your opponent is lying to you, they are cheating, and you should call a judge.
My Friend Code is: 0146-9645-8893
It becomes relevant because the morph cost is different from the cost to manifest. If a player loses track of whether a card with a morph cost was manifested or not, they won't know what they can pay.
I can't think of anything easier, and more intuitive than that...
edit: Oh, this was suggesdted by Thought Criminal
There are plenty of ways to mark the difference, from the morph/manifest token cards, random unsleeved cards if you're using sleeves, coins or other tokens on just one type or the other, or the above suggested orientation tricks. I doubt that it will be a problem in practice.
I also wouldn't be surprised if shops started keeping a supply of morph/manifest token cards available just like they do basic lands for drafts.
Did you read what I said that you quoted? Because your response would indicate you didn't. Being played as a morph is not a requirement to being flipped face up for morph cost. Said another way, a manifested creature can be turned face up for its morph cost. Reminder text has no rules meaning; the only requirement to be able to pay a creature's morph cost is that it be face down, regardless of how it got that way. Vesuvan Shapeshifter would not work if this was not the case, and there's no way that Backslide would have been a common.
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I think what he means is that a card that is cast as a morph can ONLY be flipped face-up by paying the morph cost. Whereas, if it's a morph that is manifested, it can be flipped face-up for either it's unmorph cost OR it's casting cost. So it can be relevant how a morph card gets onto the battlefield, although it's very very niche.
Hmm, I guess my brain just short-cutted all standard legal morphs as having a lower cost than the cmc... I just assumed he was talking about using morph for a manifested card, hadn't considered that one might try to pay the CMC of a card someone had morphed.
I can see why keeping track because of cards like Ashcloud Phoenix with a more expensive morph cost, and Dragon's Eye Savants that may be harder to meet might make things complicated. I guess you'll just have to bring enough supplies (tokens, beads, etc.) for yourself AND your opponent. Honestly, if the players are anything like the ones in my area, they'll probably help themselves to your supplies without asking, even if you DON'T bring enough to share. Now I'm less excited for the pre-release...
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